MRS1
Smash Journeyman
But I am still more of a man than you.
-
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"The Triforce of Knowledge" Ganon's Match-Up Guide: Character Review, Kirby.
- Thread starter Ray_Kalm
- Start date
hyperstation
Smash Lord
Just because you've BEEN WITH infinitely more men than me doesn't make you more of one.
Crystanium
Smash Hero
I share this opinion as well.
A2ZOMG
Smash Legend
- Joined
- Oct 13, 2007
- Messages
- 12,542
- Location
- RPV, California
- NNID
- A2ZOMG
- Switch FC
- SW 8400 1713 9427
Well, she does a lot better than Ganon against Snake and possibly ROB from what I've seen, which can't be denied.
Of course she blows against the other top tier cast but almost everyone does including Ganon (well, Ganon doesn't do THAT badly against G&W, but that's only one matchup, and Samus has at least two bearable matchups on the top tier).
hyperstation
Smash Lord
Wow...we actually have a unanimous decision between the Ganons and Samuses on this one, Kalm...from two very reputable Samus mains as well.
Dryn, why haven't you added MOM and I yet? We play on the same Wii and we've been awaiting your registration for so long. Get my FC from my profile and let's play a few rounds sometime soon. I've been wanting to face some other good Samus mains for a while. Tudor, the offer's on the table for you too.
30-70 it is. Maybe we should just keep moving along, Kalm...we're on a roll.
MRS1
Smash Journeyman
Ok Tudor I will super wave dash across the nation as soon as I get the timing right for Brawl... Sorry Ganon mains I will stop spamming your thread... get on with the discussion you must find a way to stop Luigi !
Zhouten
Smash Apprentice
Ganondorf
Thanks this really helps with strategies because Ganon is my main in SSBB.
Thanks this really helps with strategies because Ganon is my main in SSBB.
James Sparrow
Smash Master
I find ganon really easy to combo and really easy to edgeguard. dsmash up b combos are great, and deal a ****load of damage. Ganon has some good things on ZSS, like auto stomp to upsmash and forward b tech chases or forward b dtilt. when ganon is allowed a hit, it's usually pretty severe since zss is one of the lightest characters. ZSS can edge gaurd ganon really well. If he is far enough she can just tether the edge and not reel in as to edgehog without danger of being grabbed by the up b or hit off by the punch. timed edgehogs can prevent ganon from sweetspotting the ledge while getting back up, which allows for punishment. Side b suicides are good if you can pull them off against an aggressive edge gaurder while you're at a high percent or something. ganon will have a very hard time getting close to zss because of her stun gun, dsmash, and forward b. moves that can help with this would be side b and down b, as well as shield ftilts or dash attacks. At the start of the match suit pieces are a real problem, and in my experience they can often times lead to a stock if used properly against ganon's recovery.
My rating would be about 75-25 in zss' favor.
My rating would be about 75-25 in zss' favor.
canthandletheSpeculosity
Smash Journeyman
Yea i kinda agree with this. No one has proven me otherwise at least...
A2ZOMG
Smash Legend
- Joined
- Oct 13, 2007
- Messages
- 12,542
- Location
- RPV, California
- NNID
- A2ZOMG
- Switch FC
- SW 8400 1713 9427
Well, I just played Insomniak a whole ton, and got ***** pretty badly against his ZSS.
75/25 sounds reasonable.
There are only a few things Ganon has on ZSS, and those are some good combos, out of shield options, and raw KO power.
ZSS's Jab > Ganon's out of shield options.
Approaching her and getting combos on her is a chore because of the massive range she has on Forward B not to mention how safe D-smash is. Not to mention, those items right off the bat are scary.
Landing a KO move on her is pretty tough when she can simply camp and set up a combo if Ganon whiffs an attack.
Yeah, I hate this matchup.
75/25 sounds reasonable.
There are only a few things Ganon has on ZSS, and those are some good combos, out of shield options, and raw KO power.
ZSS's Jab > Ganon's out of shield options.
Approaching her and getting combos on her is a chore because of the massive range she has on Forward B not to mention how safe D-smash is. Not to mention, those items right off the bat are scary.
Landing a KO move on her is pretty tough when she can simply camp and set up a combo if Ganon whiffs an attack.
Yeah, I hate this matchup.
Crystanium
Smash Hero
Wow, I never realized I was reputable, let alone that there were people who wanted to brawl with me.
And I wouldn't say I'm good. I'm decent.
PM me whenever, and I'll add and brawl with you.
Ray_Kalm
Smash Master
Kind of late but, this match I had against a Samus shows us how we should play her, a bit.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a_q_AiaiDzU
Noticed how I stopped when I could of approached? Spaced myself away from her Z-air range.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a_q_AiaiDzU
Noticed how I stopped when I could of approached? Spaced myself away from her Z-air range.
This one is pretty bad for Ganon. ZSS outcamps him very badly, and is a lot faster than him both in the air and on the ground. Not to mention she combos the hell out of him and does very well, even against his close up game.
That said, Ganon can deal a lot of damage if he's very careful and measured in his approach and it doesn't take much damage for him to KO ZSS, so ZSS still has to be very careful and not get too aggressive.
If ZSS plays campy, then 7/3 ZSS is probably a conservative estimate for this match-up.
That said, Ganon can deal a lot of damage if he's very careful and measured in his approach and it doesn't take much damage for him to KO ZSS, so ZSS still has to be very careful and not get too aggressive.
If ZSS plays campy, then 7/3 ZSS is probably a conservative estimate for this match-up.
hyperstation
Smash Lord
I'm going to try to upload some vids of me and MOM brawling. Kalm, it would be a fair bit of work, but if we have examples of Ganon fighting each of the respective match-ups exceptionally well at a high level, maybe we could add videos to the summaries in the OP. Just a thought.
On topic: yeah...I don't have much to say about ZSS. Fighting a good ZSS as Ganon can be...excruciating to say the least.
studly
Smash Ace
i absolutly hate fighting zss at the start of a match!
i fought my first one this last weekend and it took me a large portion of my first stock to get the darn armor pieces off the stage....
after that though i can say i was much impressed with zamus' advantage. she does have the nasty ability to punish ganon with the laser
i fought my first one this last weekend and it took me a large portion of my first stock to get the darn armor pieces off the stage....
after that though i can say i was much impressed with zamus' advantage. she does have the nasty ability to punish ganon with the laser
Ray_Kalm
Smash Master
Yeah, I had that idea at some point yesterday to. I don't know though.
Sesshomuronay
Smash Lord
Ganondorf has very little hope against zero suite samus. She combos him really easily due to his big size. Ganon has to approach her and she is really good at spacing and playing defensively. Also even when ganondorf gets in close zero suit still has the advantage overall.
8/2 Zero suits favor.
8/2 Zero suits favor.
SaltyKracka
Smash Lord
Kindly stop posting here. For that matter, learn to play.
Sesshomuronay
Smash Lord
@SaltyKracka:
Im sorry but its true. Zero suit samus has a huge advantage over ganondorf. While it may not be exactly 8/2 its still heavily in zero suits favor. Besides one of you ganon guys asked for zero suit mains opinions in the zero suit samus forum and I came here and gave it to you.
Im sorry but its true. Zero suit samus has a huge advantage over ganondorf. While it may not be exactly 8/2 its still heavily in zero suits favor. Besides one of you ganon guys asked for zero suit mains opinions in the zero suit samus forum and I came here and gave it to you.
SaltyKracka
Smash Lord
Yes, I realize it's true, but you didn't exactly post anything new or helpful.
Ray_Kalm
Smash Master
Guys, calm down.
Sesshomuronay, we all know that Zero Suit Samus has advantage over Ganondorf, just like the rest of the cast. But at least state some facts in what and where she does, and when Ganondorf could imply his abilities.. don't just come down to one statement saying "ZSS beats Ganon."
Sesshomuronay, we all know that Zero Suit Samus has advantage over Ganondorf, just like the rest of the cast. But at least state some facts in what and where she does, and when Ganondorf could imply his abilities.. don't just come down to one statement saying "ZSS beats Ganon."
Sesshomuronay
Smash Lord
I got some tips but I dunno if their any good or not.
-Watch out for the items as they can really deal a lot of damage if your not careful.
-If your going to use down b or side b make sure she isnt just gonna nail you with her side-b.
-Try not to get knocked off as if your forced to recover your pretty screwed as she can down smash you at the ledge and down b spike you.
-Down air into up-smash is probably goo against her but I dunno for sure.
-Short hopped down airs could maybe be a decent approach.
-Watch out for the gigantic range on her up-b as it can pull you down resulting in a big chain of attacks.
-All your moves are out sped by the AAA combo so be aware of this and try to shield grab it.
-Watch out for the items as they can really deal a lot of damage if your not careful.
-If your going to use down b or side b make sure she isnt just gonna nail you with her side-b.
-Try not to get knocked off as if your forced to recover your pretty screwed as she can down smash you at the ledge and down b spike you.
-Down air into up-smash is probably goo against her but I dunno for sure.
-Short hopped down airs could maybe be a decent approach.
-Watch out for the gigantic range on her up-b as it can pull you down resulting in a big chain of attacks.
-All your moves are out sped by the AAA combo so be aware of this and try to shield grab it.
Xyro77
Unity Ruleset Committee Member
if any of you want practice or some info on my samus. plz come play me on wifi or meet me in person.
AIM or PM me soon so we can play.
AIM or PM me soon so we can play.
Ray_Kalm
Smash Master
You're still on my list.. the last time we fought, I was ridiculously weak.. Things are different now <_<
Xyro77
Unity Ruleset Committee Member
ok so out of about 11 fights. kalm won 3. hes a GREAT player. i just think that ganon still has a masssive disadvantage.
Ray_Kalm
Smash Master
Yeah, the timing you had with the Z-airs was very impressive. To bad I wasn't at my prime <_<.
I realized that this match-up should go more into Samus's favor, after playing Xyro's Samus. Around 80-20. Power shielding Samus's projectiles isn't as easy as it looks, especially if it's so well timed. Samus is very floaty and she could Z-air as long as she's still in the air, she could cause Ganon to drop his shield and Z-air us then, even if we jump, she could imitate us and still catch us with a Z-air. It's just not the same fighting someone who could use their projectiles as we use our Gerudo, mind games.
DRaGZ
Smash Champion
I just meant that if all Samus had was the z-air, then she would still pretty much **** Ganondorf.
Poor old Manondorf...
Ray_Kalm
Smash Master
He's not old <_<..
DRaGZ
Smash Champion
Old Manondorf is old.
And technically Twilight Princess Ganondorf is at least over a 100 years old, right?
And technically Twilight Princess Ganondorf is at least over a 100 years old, right?
hyperstation
Smash Lord
Um...now you're just even MORE wrong. If that's your opinion of Samus, you must just be a really bad Ganon.
Ray_Kalm
Smash Master
Yes, but I was talking about his appearance. I wasn't even serious.
Xyro77
Unity Ruleset Committee Member
trust me. Samus has a massive advantage but zar doesnt give her that advantage.
Comboing zair with missles. or missles to grabs or running off and spiking all hurt ganon badly. Running of stage and zairing keeps ganon away from ledge.
Comboing zair with missles. or missles to grabs or running off and spiking all hurt ganon badly. Running of stage and zairing keeps ganon away from ledge.
DRaGZ
Smash Champion
A really good Samus just needs to use her z-air to pretty much space decently enough to keep Ganondorf away.
I mean, what can you actually do other than side dodge and thus put yourself back in a neutral position?
Ray_Kalm
Smash Master
Okay, I'm done summarizing the Samus - Ganon match-up.
hyperstation
Smash Lord
You're talking about Samus like she doesn't have downtime in between attacks. If she was essentially lagless, she wouldn't be low tier holding hands with our beloved Dark Lord. Samus, like Ganon, gets really good when the player controlling her (see: Tudor, Xyro, Rohins...) minimizes her vulnerable openings via buffering, good spacing, baiting/punishing, and unpredictable play style.
To answer your question, well, let's see. Buffered Wiz Kick/iDA (depending on spacing) out of spot dodge or OoS. This can catch Samus on the landing or as she just leaves the ground for the next Zair, missile, w/e. If you do a wiz kick too late, samus will have already landed, will shield and punish.
Also, try a Perfect Shield.
FJ or DJ Air Dodge while approaching. The best way is probably to walk/run towards Samus while she is leaving the ground and as soon as the Zair comes out, spot dodge or power shield. Rinse, repeat until you're in range. It's not hard, and I'm speaking from several hundred hours of experience vs a high level Samus.
And Xyro's entirely right...Samus has mad spacing techniques, but Zair is hardly what gives her the advantage. successive Zairs can be read like a book, so the "really good Samus" you mention wouldn't be using Zairs over and over again anyway. They're going to use power missles, homing missles, regular and low charge shots, FJ, SH or low Zairs, SH flamethrowers and even retreating bombs against Ganon to maintain spacing depending on how close Ganon is at any given moment.
DRaGZ
Smash Champion
The general problem I have with the zair is somewhere along these lines:
"Ah there's a missile/Charge Shot coming (roll through/powershield/side-dodge/jump over)"
"Awesome, I dodged it-"
*z-air to my face*
"Ow, wtf-"
*missile to my face*
Repeat.