"The Triforce of Knowledge" Ganon's Match-Up Guide: Character Review, Kirby.

[hyperstation]

Hyperstation- those attacks BEAT it, but not practically. You have to see the Peach floating and dairing significantly in advance.

Technically, Peach's turnips, dair, ftilt, fsmash, and utilt all beat the tornado. However, turnips and dair only work if you are DIRECTLY above it and space it perfectly, and utilt only works if you are below it. A smart metaknight will never let you take out the tornado with any of these.

Same applies to Ganondorf. Those moves might be able to outprioritize it, but I guarantee you right now that you will NEVER be able to hit a Peach's dair with your uair, fair, or gerudo. No good Peach player would ever start daring from the distance required for you to set that up. Gerudo requires for you to jump higher than the Peach! Uair requires you to hit with the back part of it while jumping- the Peach will simply drop the float and ftilt you when you start the jump!

Peaches jump into the float from a close enough range to assure you can't jump and attack it. We do it to Metaknight, and Ganondorf's moves are significantly slower.

You have to consider the practical aspects of those. IMO, Ganondorf's Bair is his best option, but even then it's tough.

Ganondorf has no practical answer to a Peach who is spacing dair properly. If you wish to challenge that, play an actual match- you specifically encouraged me NOT to space my aerials when we were doing the testing. Without proper spacing, Metaknight's tornado appears to be beat by half of Peach's moveset!



Ganondorf has no response to Peach's dair when properly spaced.

Points taken, Praxis. I never disagreed with any of this, though. Theory and Practice are very different things. I would love to play a match with an experienced Peach to see how practical all of these moves actually are in-game, but I will not brawl you, Praxis...not with the insane lag issues we had happening yesterday during our exercise. If any other Peach is down for a match I'll take it. Dark.Pch, you're from Brooklyn too, right? I'd like to play you on WiFi if you're interested. I know your Peach is beast, so I'd love the match-up experience.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

That was a whole lot of information there, Praxis. I liked how you gave every little thing, or possibilities in your posts.

So what do we have here? A 30:70 for Ganon?

Anyways, Praxis pretty much summed everything up here. Let's move on.

Ike

Match-Up Ratio
-Explanation, and at least a basic discussion of possible strategies.
Gerudo Effectiveness
-Explanation on how much gerudo and its follow ups benefit Ganondorf in the match-up.
Approach/Defense Options
-Explanation on how Ganondorf should approach, or if he should at all, along with how he should play defensively.
Aerial Options
-Explanation on who's Aerials are better and what counters what.
Building up Damage
-Explanation on how to build up damage.
Dealing with projectiles
-Explanation on how to deal with the opponent(s) projectile, if it has one.
Stomp
-Explanation about stomping, weather it's useful here or not.
A Special Technique
-Name a special technique that the opponent has and ways to avoid it.
Video(s)
-Link to one or more videos of the match-up.


I'm only using this picture, cause the Ike boards are using a ridiculous picture for us <_<....

 

[adumbrodeus]

I'll use my little flow-chart!


1. Who has to approach?
V
2a. If ganondorf, does he have safe approaches in this match-up?
OR
2b. If the opponent, does he have safe approaches in this match-up?
OR
2c. If neither, do either of them have safe approaches in this match-up?
V
3. Does the approaching character(s) have approaches that are safe on prediction and/or multiple safe on block approaches that require a DIFFERENT reaction on prediction? Are any of these approaches kill moves?

4. Who has a better follow-up game?

5. Who has aerial superiority?

6. Who has a better gimp game?

7. Who gets the opponent to percents that they can reliably kill quicker overall?

8. Who has better spacing and zoning tools?

9. Can the character that doesn't have to approach safely approach?



I'm actually not positive on this cause I'm not positive about Ike's moveset, but it should give us a baseline.


1. Who has to approach?
Neither
V

2c. If neither, do either of them have safe approaches in this match-up?

Yes, both. Ike is Shorthopped nair and (I believe) short-hopped fastfalled fair, Ganondorf is reverse uair.


V
3. Does the approaching character(s) have approaches that are safe on prediction and/or multiple safe on block approaches that require a DIFFERENT reaction on prediction? Are any of these approaches kill moves?

No, the reactions are the same, shield.

Ike's Fair is a kill move.



Conclusion: Ike's advantage, the other info should tell us by how much.



4. Who has a better follow-up game?

Both are pretty much the same, they hit hard, but following up with them is difficult because of that fact. Still, Ganondorf has a lot more options, dair to up-smash, murder choke follow-ups (all follow-ups guarenteed!), etc.

5. Who has aerial superiority?

Ike, long disjointed hitboxes and the fact that he outranges Ganondorf in the air pretty much universally makes this true.

Except Ganondorf being below him.

6. Who has a better gimp game?

Because of better effective edgeguarding, this goes to Ike. Ganondorf has the tipman... but Ike's hitboxes, especially his up-b, make it pretty much impossible to use, and dair doesn't have the range to reliably gimp in this match-up.

7. Who gets the opponent to percents that they can reliably kill quicker overall?

Again, Ike. Superior spacing game, his great Jab combo, and longer range should allow him to overall get Ganondorf to higher damage quicker.

8. Who has better spacing and zoning tools?

Again, Ike. Can Space and Zone with fair, Jab combo, up-b, etc.

9. Can the character that doesn't have to approach safely approach?

Neither has to, discussed above.


Overall, 65-35 I'd say, Ike's favor.



Now for your questions, I'll use them to figure out strategy.

Match-Up Ratio
-Explanation, and at least a basic discussion of possible strategies.

65-35, unfortunately, he plays like Ganondorf with longer range, but less follow-up. That makes him really difficult to play against, as my flow-chart shows.

Basically, get inside him, but outside of jab range.

At that range, you're pretty much the same, he's just more punishable.



Gerudo Effectiveness
-Explanation on how much gerudo and its follow ups benefit Ganondorf in the match-up.

I'd go with dtilt here, because Ike being above Ganondorf is one of the more effective options for Ganondorf in this match-up. It's an effective damage builder.

Approach/Defense Options
-Explanation on how Ganondorf should approach, or if he should at all, along with how he should play defensively.

Reverse Uair. You should approach because he's got more options on approach then you do, plus you want that spacing.


Aerial Options
-Explanation on who's Aerials are better and what counters what.

Ike's aerials are better, he generally beats out your entire arsenal, except Uair at certain angles, and that has a lot to do with placement. Don't be in the air against him except for short-hopped reverse uair and below him.


Building up Damage
-Explanation on how to build up damage.

Murder choke and combos. You really don't have safe options against him, so use follow-ups. Dair to upsmash is another good one, and when in air, keep him above you.


Dealing with projectiles
-Explanation on how to deal with the opponent(s) projectile, if it has one.

Effectively up-b. To stop that... that's a bad angle for Ganondorf in general, so just stay out of that angle.

Stomp
-Explanation about stomping, weather it's useful here or not.

It's a nice punisher/follow-up, but it can't really be used as an approach or for gimping. Has it's uses, but not a staple here.


A Special Technique
-Name a special technique that the opponent has and ways to avoid it.

edit: Jab combos and stage dependant grab shananigans.

The solution? Spacing, don't be in Jab range. EVER. If you get grabbed he's got good release options (dash attack, fair into the dead zone), and an infinite on Corneria. Jab can lead to a grab in addition to other damage building.



Video(s)
-Link to one or more videos of the match-up.

Sorry, don't have any....

 

[Nidtendofreak]

For Techs, Ike has his ledge grab release on Ganondorf. If he grabs Ganondorf by the ledge and lets him go, it's a free unavoidable Fair, which I believe can place Ganon in his "dead zone" (zone he can't recover from, but is still on screen) at reasonably low %s compared to straight out killing. Ike also has a Grab Release -> Dash Attack on Ganondorf, but only if Ganondorf airbreaks. There is a slight possibility that Ike has a CG on Ganon if he air releases, but it's unlikely and needs more testing, so don't really worry about it yet. If on Cornelia, look out for Ike's F-throw Infinite behind the fin.

Also, Ike has his Jab Canceling to worry about. A-AA->Grab by the ledge would set up that grab release quite nicely. Or A-AA-Utilt. Or A-A-AA-AAA. Or A-AA-Aether. You get the picture.

Also, underneath Ike isn't necessarily safe. He has a large, disjointed spike that is the 4th strongest in the game. I believe it's the most disjointed out of all spikes (unless Marth's Tipper Dair has more overall range on it). Ike could also pull out Eruption (highly unlikely, but it's still there), which has as you know SAFs and a spike. You probably won't see it, but keep that in the back of your head when trying to go underneath Ike. Or maybe counter if you are getting predictable.

 

[adumbrodeus]

For Techs, Ike has his ledge grab release on Ganondorf. If he grabs Ganondorf by the ledge and lets him go, it's a free unavoidable Fair, which I believe can place Ganon in his "dead zone" (zone he can't recover from, but is still on screen) at reasonably low %s compared to straight out killing. Ike also has a Grab Release -> Dash Attack on Ganondorf, but only if Ganondorf airbreaks. There is a slight possibility that Ike has a CG on Ganon if he air releases, but it's unlikely and needs more testing, so don't really worry about it yet. If on Cornelia, look out for Ike's F-throw Infinite behind the fin.

Also, Ike has his Jab Canceling to worry about. A-AA->Grab by the ledge would set up that grab release quite nicely. Or A-AA-Utilt. Or A-A-AA-AAA. Or A-AA-Aether. You get the picture.

Haven't been keeping up with the Ike boards recently it seems.

*Adjusts estimated*

Now leaning towards 70-30, but still in 65-35 range, mainly cause Ike's got a rather poor grab range, and it's in the zone that we SHOULD NEVER BE. Jab range.

Jab canceling was something I considered a given, it was part of the "fear the jab combo" think, cause most characters have that ability, but I'll note it.

Also, underneath Ike isn't necessarily safe. He has a large, disjointed spike that is the 4th strongest in the game. I believe it's the most disjointed out of all spikes (unless Marth's Tipper Dair has more overall range on it). Ike could also pull out Eruption (highly unlikely, but it's still there), which has as you know SAFs and a spike. You probably won't see it, but keep that in the back of your head when trying to go underneath Ike. Or maybe counter if you are getting predictable.

It's all reletive. I wouldn't suggest it off-stage, but because of dair's start-up start-up and the ability to get around it by picking slightly off-center positions it's Ganondorf's best position in this match-up.

Eruption we just have to react to, thankfully it's slow enough to do so.

Counter, if you're spacing the uair properly shouldn't hit... I think. I need to test it.

 

[Blad01]

2c. If neither, do either of them have safe approaches in this match-up?

Yes, both. Ike is Shorthopped nair and (I believe) short-hopped fastfalled fair, Ganondorf is reverse uair.

Is SH Nair really that safe ? I've punished it out of shield multiple times...

V
3. Does the approaching character(s) have approaches that are safe on prediction and/or multiple safe on block approaches that require a DIFFERENT reaction on prediction? Are any of these approaches kill moves?

No, the reactions are the same, shield.

Ike's Fair is a kill move.

Well, we can get out of range, and use SS FSmash / Gerudo.

Conclusion: Ike's advantage, the other info should tell us by how much.

Well, i don't see how Ike has the advantage. Moreover, Ganon has more attacking (not safe, but it's your job to mindgame) and defensive options.

5. Who has aerial superiority?

Ike, long disjointed hitboxes and the fact that he outranges Ganondorf in the air pretty much universally makes this true.

Except Ganondorf being below him.

Well, Ganon's Uair vs Ike's Fair > Ganon's Uair wins, faster.

Ganon's (retreating) Tipman > Ike's Nair i think.

Ike's Nair might be faster than Ganon's moves, but doesn't have much range. However, Ike can be attacked before / at the very beginning of Nair, or after.

Ike's Bair > Every ganon's aerial option, but doesn't have much range neither.

> Conclusion : Ike has range OR fast aerials, so Ganon can win in the airs if he predicts a bit.
But in theory, Ike has a slight advantage.

6. Who has a better gimp game?

Because of better effective edgeguarding, this goes to Ike. Ganondorf has the tipman... but Ike's hitboxes, especially his up-b, make it pretty much impossible to use, and dair doesn't have the range to reliably gimp in this match-up.

O_O WHAT ARE YOU SAYING ?

Ganondorf wins at gimp game easily... Tipman just destroys Ikes.
Dair is good too.

Both Ike's Side B and Up B are a lot punishable. Side B... With it, ike should never get back on stage. You can even jump to Ike, spotdodge, and watch him falling to his death...
Up B is more difficult to punish, but with Tipman, you send Ike out of range for recovering.
And you can edgehog it.

Ganondorf is less easy to punish. Side B is scaring, Up B can be edgehogged, but can also catch Ike in the airs, has a hitbox at its top.

> Conclusion : Ganon wins.

7. Who gets the opponent to percents that they can reliably kill quicker overall?

Again, Ike. Superior spacing game, his great Jab combo, and longer range should allow him to overall get Ganondorf to higher damage quicker.

I don't agree. You seem to like Ike's range. But it's pretty easy to go trough (Dash Attack, Wizkick, Gerudo, DTilt). Once you're there, you should give Ike a run for his money : Gerudo, Dair combos, Boucing Combo eventually).
Furthermore, Ganon seems to have better killing options, and is less easy to edgeguard. (so the"percents they can reliably kill" should be superior)

> Conclusion : Ganondorf advantage.

8. Who has better spacing and zoning tools?

Again, Ike. Can Space and Zone with fair, Jab combo, up-b, etc.

Well... Ganon's Dtilt, Wizckick, SH retreating Uair / Bair, FH Nair to DJ, Gerudo, SS FSmash are good spacing tools (though some of them are more punishable).

> Conclusion : Ike advantage.


Overall, 55-45 Ganondorf for me. He has less range, but can rivalise in the airs, has good attacking and defensive options, better combos, can get Ike off stage pretty easily (Gerudo follows-ups, FTilt, Wizkick), and gimp him easily (althought it is way harder when Ike is below the stage, using Up B)

That could turn into a 50-50 easily, but this is definitly not Ike's advantage imo. (i'm waiting for ike mains opion of course).

 

[adumbrodeus]

Is SH Nair really that safe ? I punished it out of shield multiple times...

I'm pretty sure it is, when spaced properly. A lot of it is that you have to hit with a certain point of the attack, cause it auto-cancels.

Well, we can get out of range, and use SS FSmash / Gerudo.

Safe on block was my criteria.

Well, i don't see how Ike has the advantage. Moreover, Ganon has more attacking (not safe, but it's your job to mindgame) and defensive options.

Safe was really the issue here, because if you can get them, then you're a better player anyway, realistically speaking.

Assuming mindgame->Ike fsmash means Ike wins every match-up.

Well, Ganon's Uair vs Ike's Fair > Ganon's Uair wins, faster.

He can outspace it though.

Regardless, uair is Ganon's best aerial for this match-up, I went over that. It doesn't make up for the fact that Ganon has issues with the fact that at most positions reletive to Ike, he's very vulnerable.

Ganon's (retreating) Tipman > Ike's Nair i think.

As far as priority goes, no. But range yes. If you time it right, it'll dodge the hitbox.

The problem is it's disjointed, tipman's hurtbox will contact it's hitbox before tipman's hitbox contacts it's hurtbox.

Ike's Nair might be faster than Ganon's moves, but doesn't have much range. However, Ike can be attacked before / at the very beginning of Nair, or after.

My fault, should've pointed out that nair was a bit of the exception.

Ike's Bair > Every ganon's aerial option, but doesn't have much range neither.

Actually, it's quite good, but linear.

> Conclusion : Ike has range OR fast aerials, so Ganon can win in the airs if he predicts a bit.
But in theory, Ike has a slight advantage.

Not really.

O_O WHAT ARE YOU SAYING ?

Ganondorf wins at gimp game easily... Tipman just destroys Ikes.
Dair is good too.

Problem is, both have issues hitting through Ike's hitboxes in a gimp situation.

Especially when Ike using up-b.

Granted, if you get him BEFORE he can up-b he's screwed, but a good Ike should let that happen. So super armor plus large area controlled by recovery move make it difficult to tipman.

Both Ike's Side B and Up B are a lot punishable. Side B... With it, ike should never get back on stage. You can even jump to Ike, spotdodge, and watch him falling to his death...
Up B is more difficult to punish, but with Tipman, you send Ike out of range for recovering.
And you can edgehog it.

Unless it's FAR FAR away from you, Ike will never recover with quickdraw.

As for tipman, again, the problem isn't so much that it doesn't do that. It's that landing a tipman against a recovering Ike that's good is nearly impossible.

Basically, when he's offstage, he should recover with up-b, and Ganon doesn't have options as long as he catches the edge.

Ganondorf is less easy to punish. Side B is scaring, Up B can be edgehogged, but can also catch Ike in the airs, has a hitbox at its top.

Side-B falls to spaced fairs. If you don't catch the edge, so does up-b but that's rare, really it's recovering high that an issue for this. The REAL problem with up-b is that it's linear once it starts, which means Ike can safely dtilt.

Yeah, it's a spike, getting hit is NOT good.

I don't agree. You seem to like Ike's range. But it's pretty easy to go trough (Dash Attack, Wizkick, Gerudo, DTilt). Once you're there, you should give Ike a run for his money : Gerudo, Dair combos, Boucing Combo eventually).
Furthermore, Ganon seems to have better killing options, and is less easy to edgeguard. (so the"percents they can reliably kill" should be superior)

> Conclusion : Ganondorf advantage.

You're right, Ganon CAN kill earlier. But this is about who gets the opponent to kill percents earlier, not what the killing percents actually are.

Well... Ganon's Dtilt, Wizckick, SH retreating Uair / Bair, FH Nair to DJ, Gerudo, SS FSmash are good spacing tools (though some of them are more punishable).

> Conclusion : Ike advantage.

Yes, Ike's are better, that was my point. Primarily because of range and disjointedness.

 

[Gleam]

It's really not the fact that Ike's up B is gimpable, because it can be hard to gimp that. It can be really hard to gimp Aether. It's the fact that is a down right horrible recovery when it comes to distance. You have to be nearly right on the ledge to use it if you want to return safely. QD speaks for itself with its gimpability, but like people have said, its a rarely used move for a recovery.

Ganondorf has a far better edgeguard game which accompanied with Ike's downright terrible recovery puts him at a clear disatvantage while "off" the stage.

 

[adumbrodeus]

It's really not the fact that Ike's up B is gimpable, because it can be hard to gimp that. It can be really hard to gimp Aether. It's the fact that is a down right horrible recovery when it comes to distance. You have to be nearly right on the ledge to use it if you want to return safely. QD speaks for itself with its gimpability, but like people have said, its a rarely used move for a recovery.

Ganondorf has a far better edgeguard game which accompanied with Ike's downright terrible recovery puts him at a clear disatvantage while "off" the stage.

But that's not really edgeguarding, he just has more blind spots, but a lot of that is dealt with via good DI, generally.

Don't get me wrong, it hurts him, but not as much as you'd think.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

As I said in the Ike topic, Ike is NEVER forced to use QD to recover if he still has his DJ, which he will. Any single possible way you can use QD to recover, you could have used DJ + Aether to recovered.

What does Ganon have for edgeguarding? Dispite what I have in my sig, I don't use Ganon that much. Too busy working with Ike to get him to tournament level. Anyways, Ike has: Eruption, Dtilt, Downwards angled Ftilt, Fsmash, SHDair, SHFair, Aether, SHBair and, Counter (Won't be used here obviously). I'm near positive Ike has a superior edgeguarding game.

As for edgeguarding Aether, you could go for a SHDair at the peak of the aether, but you risk getting aetherspiked in the process. Ftilt might work if Ike aether'd high enough but in most cases he won't. Utilt would require some insane timing to hit him while he's still spinning at the peak, but not grabbing the ledge. Dtilt could work, probably has a better chance then Ftilt. For Aether's range, it has more vertical then Mario's Up B, and does have horizontal movement while Ike is out of SAFs. You can get about the radius of aether's spin in horizontal. And if it's on BF or SV, if it hits the slant (except for the VERY bottom), he will make it up.

As for Ike getting in Jabs, seeing it's a staple in basically every single match-up, if the Ike actually knows what he's doing he will know how to get in jabs on people who don't want to be jabbed. The fact it comes out on frame 3 or 4 (still getting mixed results on that in the frame testing IIRC) is a HUGE help. Works quite well OoS, attacking landing lag or laggy moves, ect. While Ganon's Dair autocancels, I don't believe his Uair does (correct me if wrong). At low %, Nair combos into his jabs thanks to auto-canceling when SH'd. Dtilt can as well, but thats not very likely to be used.

 

[fromundaman]

Nid, we aren't actually talking about Uairing you DURING the Aether. However, if we hit you with a reversed Uair at ANY point while you're off the stage, you cannot recover due to the angle it sends you at.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I'm very convinced Ike is a close matchup only slightly in Ike's favor.

Obviously Ike has more disjointed range, so if he hits Ganon's foot, it hurts Ganon. But his range isn't unbeatable.

80% of the matchup is baited approaches and punish out of shield. Ganon has more in terms of KOing out of shield, but Ike's Jab is faster than Ganon's other attacks and does a nice 16%.

Ganon has a bit more in terms of juggling.

Ike has more in terms of edgeguarding in this matchup since Ganon really can't edgeguard Ike too much due to Aether being lame, and because Ganon's recovery is easy to spike.

Just something that needs to be said. Ganon OVERALL has better edgeguarding than Ike. Why? It's because he can chase his opponent down to a degree. Ganon's aerials all are faster and better for comboing AND gimping. Ike is slow as syrup in the air and can't jump more than 5 feet away with an aerial without risking not being able to make it back.

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

ganon is the only character that Ike can jab lock across the stage. I'm not sure there is a reliable way to land it though.

is that Uair thing really so easy to land though? the way I see is like this.

1. ganon jumps out at Ike
2. Ike counters
3. ???
4. profit.

 

[adumbrodeus]

ganon is the only character that Ike can jab lock across the stage. I'm not sure there is a reliable way to land it though.

is that Uair thing really so easy to land though? the way I see is like this.

1. ganon jumps out at Ike
2. Ike counters
3. ???
4. profit.

Counter takes a while to come out, you can literally react to it. It's just his best option, not match-up defining.


If you're refering to off-stage though, you don't wanna do that, will counter's cooldown you'll never get back.

 

[ShadowX718]

I wish Ganon's fighting style was the same as it was in Melee.
He got nerfed so bad now... its almost impossible to win with him.... T_T

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

counter stops you in mid air for a while. the cool down isn't that bad either in fact its just as fast as marths.

Also does ganon have the recovery to jump out react to the counter jump again hit us and make it back?

 

[SaltyKracka]

counter stops you in mid air for a while. the cool down isn't that bad either in fact its just as fast as marths.

Also does ganon have the recovery to jump out react to the counter jump again hit us and make it back?

Most definitely.

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

reallyyyyyy? Doesn't seem like it but meh.

Ike still edge guards ganon better.

 

[adumbrodeus]

counter stops you in mid air for a while. the cool down isn't that bad either in fact its just as fast as marths.

Take it from a Marth main, on recovery, unless you're recovering high, the cool-down time (whether or not you hit) is a killer for the exact same reason.

Also does ganon have the recovery to jump out react to the counter jump again hit us and make it back?

On recovery, you'll rarely be high enough to use it. Regardless, I sort of pointed out that Ganondorf's limited range coupled with Ike's very good (defensively speaking, at least in this match-up) up-b makes edgeguarding him period a tall order.

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

Take it from a Marth main, on recovery, unless you're recovering high, the cool-down time (whether or not you hit) is a killer for the exact same reason.

Well Ike does have better vertical recovery maybe thats why you think of it like that. I've done it plenty of times it doesn't seem to hurt as bad as you think.

On recovery, you'll rarely be high enough to use it. Regardless, I sort of pointed out that Ganondorf's limited range coupled with Ike's very good (defensively speaking, at least in this match-up) up-b makes edgeguarding him period a tall order.

I don't think you know how Ike recovers. He should always be high enough to use it with DI. Other wise he'll just die with out the need of gimping.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I wish Ganon's fighting style was the same as it was in Melee.
He got nerfed so bad now... its almost impossible to win with him.... T_T

That's cause you suck. =)

 

[Blad01]

Here is a Ganon Match-Up Chart i've began to fill (Mmac created the chart model) :

 

[Ray_Kalm]

That's nice ^, but Ganondorf should do a bit better against Metaknight, a 35-65 in my opinion.

Also, the Ike match-up ratio's undecided or incomplete, thus it shouldn't be on that chart yet.

 

[RyanPF]

I'm pretty sure that matchup chart is wrong.

Only Link can defeat Ganon.

 

[Swoops]

I eat ieks for breakfast. Oh and a lot of people seem to have options from a shielded ledgedrop shuttle loop. I've been messing around with it and Ganon can cause some death from this. Obviously the MK could learn it pretty quick but it's a pretty good option, especially when you can get stomps, f-tilts, d-tilts, d-smashes, and maybe even f-smashes o.O

 

[adumbrodeus]

That's nice ^, but Ganondorf should do a bit better against Metaknight, a 35-65 in my opinion.

No, just no.

It's definately a hard counter, it's just too easy for Ganondorf to be rendered useless by being outspaced.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

No, just no.

It's definately a hard counter, it's just too easy for Ganondorf to be rendered useless by being outspaced.

Okay, I'm going to need help with the stage counter picks for each character discussed.

 

[Swoops]

Some of those match up numbers on the chart were discussed already with different outcomes.

MK=Final Destination

 

[Ray_Kalm]

Some of those match up numbers on the chart were discussed already with different outcomes.

MK=Final Destination

Okay, I'll need the information then.

 

[:034:]

Luigi, Luigi, Luigi... I have mixed feelings about him. On the one hand, Luigi has all of his tools at his disposal: he has no trouble approaching, combo'ing and KO'ing us. Luigi is very alike to Mario with the combo's and playstyle, but less gimping and more precise KO's.

On the other - that's just exactly it. Precise KO's are actually rather hard against Ganondorf. Sure, Ganondorf has laggy attacks, but we'll know to use them less. If there's anything we gain on the Mario Bros., it's our range. We can certainly keep Luigi at bay with dtilt and several auto-cancelled aerials. Bair and uair should work.

I honestly don't have a lot of experience against Weegee - my friend mained him at one point but wasn't all that good with him... What I can definitely say is that Luigi's recovery is gimpable, he'll have trouble recovering if he loses his second jump. And his SideB can be interrupted by a well placed spike.

 

[Blad01]

I honestly don't have a lot of experience against Weegee - my friend mained him at one point but wasn't all that good with him... What I can definitely say is that Luigi's recovery is gimpable, he'll have trouble recovering if he loses his second jump. And his SideB can be interrupted by a well placed spike.

Down B is a god recovery... Well, somehow.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

His SideB can be interrupted by a well placed spike.

I'm not quite sure about that.. Lugi's SideB is a lot like DK's barrage attack, but it's faster and covers more range.

You're gonna need to time yourself precisely as soon as he uses it, predict the direction then spike him.

 

[kigbariom]

I think in this particular matchup, Luigi needs to thrive on the vulnerabilities. Because Ganondorf is slow Luigi's KO moves come into play. Luigi needs to stay off the edge though, his recoveries are very predictable. Once you know Luigi's down B recovery you can plan ahead. IMO 60-40 Luigi's favor. This matchup is very interesting because I like Ganon and I recently played a good one, so please prove me wrong.

 

[:034:]

I'm not quite sure about that.. Lugi's SideB is a lot like DK's barrage attack, but it's faster and covers more range.

You're gonna need to time yourself precisely as soon as he uses it, predict the direction then spike him.

I've done it before.. It's definitely doable. It's not a gigantic sign with 'OMFG GIMP ME' but it can be done.

Down B is a god recovery... Well, somehow.

I've wondered about that way back in the early days, but I think you need to do it in combination with your second jump. So, if your second jump is gone, his recovery will be less good.

I'm not actually sure about this, so I'm glad if a Luigi main could step in to show us the facts.

I think in this particular matchup, Luigi needs to thrive on the vulnerabilities. Because Ganondorf is slow Luigi's KO moves come into play. Luigi needs to stay off the edge though, his recoveries are very predictable. Once you know Luigi's down B recovery you can plan ahead. IMO 60-40 Luigi's favor. This matchup is very interesting because I like Ganon and I recently played a good one, so please prove me wrong.

I wouldn't put this at 60-40 so quickly. I'm gonna make a gamble and call it even for now... Because basically - Luigi and Mario have about the same playstyle. Of course, when it comes to the detailed stuff they are different (like how Doc and Mario had differences in Melee), but overall, the playstyle seems about the same.

What sets Mario apart from Luigi in the Ganondorf match-up is Ganondorf's predictable recovery and Mario's excellent gimping game. Mario has his cape which makes it a lot harder for Ganondorf to come back. Luigi can gimp, of course, but not as effectively or quick as Mario can.

I think both characters can really show off their strengths and weaknesses in this match-up.

Oh, and Luigi is a tad bit lighter than Mario... According to MrSilver's research:

Mario 1
Luigi 0.995

Not something radically different, but it's something to keep in mind for us anyway.

 

[studly]

I've done it before.. It's definitely doable. It's not a gigantic sign with 'OMFG GIMP ME' but it can be done.


.

happens to me on ocassion

 

[chic]

60-40 luigi

luigis speed is just too much

 

[:034:]

<_<

>_>

Amazing argument.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

60-40 luigi

luigis speed is just too much

Speed in what? Attacks? Or his running speed?

 

[SaltyKracka]

60-40 luigi

luigis speed is just too much

Welcome to an actual matchup discussion, may we have your details?

 

[PK-ow!]

I'm pretty sure that matchup chart is wrong.

Only Link can defeat Ganon.

Lol.

What's the priority info against Luigi Cyclone? Can Ganon clank with it? Can they mutually hit? Can he actually hit through it with anything? I expet dtilt works.