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"The Triforce of Knowledge" Ganon's Match-Up Guide: Character Review, Kirby.

Gleam

Smash Ace
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Well flying Ganon takes Ganodorf's already good edgeguarding game and just increases it even more. Now Ganondorf can reach any height, so just recovering from a lofty height isn't going to save people anymore. If it was a 50:50 edgeguard before, it'll probably edge to a 55:45 to 60:40 Ganon advantage on edgeguarding.

Edgeguarding is becomming a key trait for Ganondorf as it just gets better and better.
 

Gleam

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I was referring to the PK thunder, which is still a poor recovery. I didn't mean to say that it was Lucas' only recovery option.
 

Swoops

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Ganon gimping Mario? Funny :]


Only thing I really fear is the down air, and if I'm recovering from above, a few fireballs lets me return safe :[

Ganon has to fear almost all of Mario's aerials and specials.
Just...stop talking.
 

hyperstation

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My two cents:

I'd rather play against a Lucas than against a Ness. Completely irrelevant to the discussion, but that's what I've got, you're all gonna eat it.

I'd say the most fun way to gimp a Lucas/Ness is to just run off the stage as they're going for the Thunder recovery and purposely get hit with the Thunderball. It's just so funny watching those Earthbound boys pathetically Fall Special to their death.
 

Noraa

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...people say lucas's recovery sucks and easy to gimp..
...but when yall play a lucas you all dont even leave the stage, how the hell would you gimp up cus if you touch us we can jus pkt again to get back up?.

Real lucas players use to tether also.

As for helping with the gimping...aim for the pkt it self and not hit us...i see this mistake alot.
 

Levitas

the moon
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My two cents:

I'd rather play against a Lucas than against a Ness. Completely irrelevant to the discussion, but that's what I've got, you're all gonna eat it.

I'd say the most fun way to gimp a Lucas/Ness is to just run off the stage as they're going for the Thunder recovery and purposely get hit with the Thunderball. It's just so funny watching those Earthbound boys pathetically Fall Special to their death.
I know, right? I really like how the bolt disappears when you get hit by it, especially lucas's. I do it all the time. moron

Now, seriously, Lucas has a pretty decent punishment game against ganon, ganon's attacks aren't fast enough to punish lucas's game that well, so ganon relies on priority and range.

Unfortunately, lucas has midrange/long on lock with pk fire, so ganon must approach.

I don't know much more from experience with good ganons, so I'll go ahead and say 60:40 lucas is what I believe based on movesets, recovery, edgeguarding, and speed.

Oh, and lucas does about as well as ness against ganon. Ness has better rushdown options and his PKT is particularly effective against him, but lucas has a more solid game overall, and lives longer.
 

Swoops

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Actually...ganon can definitely punish lucas. Big misconception that Ganondorf's attacks are slow. They're pretty fast on start up, it just takes a while for cool down.

We can punish all your smashes, and probably the lag on a couple aerials. We can do it with gerudo, DA, d-tilt, wizkick. We can travel a big distance in a short amount of time. You can't just throw out d-smashes because we can punish those. U-smash screams punishment. Stick can be stomped to hell and back.

I'm pretty lazy, so refer to what blackbelt put up :p.
 

Serph

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So I take it Ganondorf isn't going to have any positive matchups, then? I mean I'd probably consider those first three among his easiest. :p

Anyway, I'm no expert, but I'd probably give this one a 60:40 in Lucas' favour. Like Swoops said, Ganondorf has some deceptively quick attacks and is capable of punishing.
 

Blackbelt

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I've been doing some research/testing.


Even with the Flying Ganon, I still put the matchup at 60-40, Lucas advantage.
 

Ray_Kalm

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Ganon's new super jump ability shouldn't start being judged, unless or until it's being used at it's highest way possible.

____________

On another note, I'll be adding a video and page section giving videos of the match-ups and pages where the match-up was discussed.
 

Levitas

the moon
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Actually...ganon can definitely punish lucas. Big misconception that Ganondorf's attacks are slow. They're pretty fast on start up, it just takes a while for cool down.

We can punish all your smashes, and probably the lag on a couple aerials. We can do it with gerudo, DA, d-tilt, wizkick. We can travel a big distance in a short amount of time. You can't just throw out d-smashes because we can punish those. U-smash screams punishment. Stick can be stomped to hell and back.

I'm pretty lazy, so refer to what blackbelt put up :p.
if sonic has trouble punishing lucas's wind-down, then ganon has a lot more trouble.

I'm not saying that he can't punish any of lucas's attacks, but attacks that don't miss entirely will probably not be punished in this matchup (the exception being missed KO attempts).
 

Blackbelt

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Ganon's new super jump ability shouldn't start being judged, unless or until it's being used at it's highest way possible.

____________

On another note, I'll be adding a video and page section giving videos of the match-ups and pages where the match-up was discussed.
I know, I know it's still in the early stages of developement, but I'd rather discuss the now instead of the could.
 

Swoops

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if sonic has trouble punishing lucas's wind-down, then ganon has a lot more trouble.

I'm not saying that he can't punish any of lucas's attacks, but attacks that don't miss entirely will probably not be punished in this matchup (the exception being missed KO attempts).
Then sonic probably can punish lucas' winddown. I'm not talking about punishing shielded tilts or anything, but Ganon can punish all of lucas' smashes on shield. Yes even stick and fingerbang. D-tilt, DA, and Gerudo all do a great job at punishing things from afar, and shield pushback aint no thang.
 

GotenOnNimbus

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I use both Ganon and Lucas, so I'd like to think I know them both decently well. A lot of it I've noticed is fighting for that ledge...Ganon's recovery is bad, but Lucas' recovery is predictable (low, you have Zap Jump and PKT2, horizontal there's PKT2, Rope Snake, and Magnet Pull). Maybe it's just me knowing how Lucas recovers fairly well, but Ganon offstage seems to give him a good run for his money with uair and dair. On the stage, Lucas gets annoying with PK Fire and PKT, powershielding is certainly your friend...Otherwise, Gerudo and SH Dair punishment work well, just watch out for utilt and usmash if you happen to FH over him. If I remember correctly (kick me in the shin if I'm wrong) but aerial Wizkick outprioritizes nair, so if Lucas goes from nair>nair, try and wizkick out of it. Stomp his *** if he tries dsmash. You have to be patient against Lucas, you can wait and punish, or get him offstage quickly and kick him around on the edge. Oh, and poke with dtilt. I'm pretty sure it reaches farther than stick and ftilt.

I'd say because of Lucas' range, 55-45 Lucas.
 

Levitas

the moon
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Swoops, really? what did you think I meant by missed KO attempts? I can see you agree with me, so that's all I've got right now.
 

AndrewCarlson

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Pit is a very had match-up. Not only will he likely camp you relentlessly, he also has a 0-40% chaingrab on you. And once you're off the stage, you're probably not coming back due to the amazing gimping potential of his arrows. His Mirror Shield won't work on your recoveries since they have grab-like properties, so that's a plus. His F-smash also comes out incredibly fast and can be used to punish out of shield.
 

Kyuubi9t

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as a pit player i feel like ganondorf is at a clear disadvantage. He isnt fast enough to do much about camping, and to make it even worse i feel like pit has the close range advantage as well. Pit an rack up damage so fast against (especially) heavy, large, slower characters like ganon. Well maybe if ganon had a counter this match would be better but he does not.

He loses close range, long range, and off stage as well. Ganon can be gimped and edgeguarded by pit quite easily, whereas ganon cannot do the same to Pit. The only place he may have a chance is in the aerial battles, and a good pit could still cancel that advantage with quick movements and exploiting hit box openings. Ganon is heavy though, and if he stays on the board then he will have a better shot.

Ganon should want to use his U-air in the air, pit cant cover up his feet very well. Also, a few well-placed D-airs should have Pit rethinking his approach. For killing, Pit is low-mid weight, he shouldnt be hard to get the kill on. Ive been killed by nearly every single move ganon has, so like i said, it shouldnt be a problem. You should see pit flying away at 100% from a ganon's Down-B.

STAY AWAY FROM CLOSE RANGE!! Honestly, i dont know if this is how all Pits play, but if a ganon wants to get real cuddly with me, he will just get cut up. Pit's tap-A and angel ring should def. be avoided altogether by ganon. If pit comes near you, kick him with the F-tilt or better yet use the tap A jab to create a small space to SHfair him. Ganon is just the right size and weight that a combo from pit may never end, so dont even give him that first little opening or it might get ugly. So stay away from close range when possible, long range is bad for obvious reasons and i dont think i need to get into that. Concentrate on keeping pit mid-range... this way you can power sheild arrows and be close enough to punish sloppy behavior without getting caught in an endless Pit combo.

Id say that Ganon doesnt want to get aggressive until Pit is at high percentage, heres my reason. Ganon hits hard, and pit is light. When ganon hits pit at a low %, pit will be placed at mid range, Ganon's sweet zone. Here, you need to play it cool and dont jump into close range, because this is bad for Ganon. Keep Pit mid range and lay on the % with a calm cool head. When Pit is high percentage (i mean like >75% for this match up), ganon's attacks will send pit far, but not kill him. This is where you should be aggressive!! If you knock Pit into long range, of course its just gonna be arrows and more arrows once he gets you lined up. Dont let him, follow up your attacks immediately before he can put a target on your head. From here on, chase and chase, land a few good hits and Pit should be dunzo.

Still, it doesnt look too good for Ganon. Im gonna say 65-35 in Pit's favor
 

Kyuubi9t

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65:35 is actually pretty good odds for Ganon considering as you say how badly Pit wrecks Ganon. Which I agree with.
Yea but i dont claim to be an expert or have absolute knowledge of them. Therefore this was calculated with my error included.... ive played good Ganons but im sure some of you guys in here are way better, so i dont know how you would deal with my pit. Still, even with skilled players, i find that Ganon is at a disadvantage. I wanted to say 70-30 but dodnt want to get flamed... i still believe in the arguements i made though which is whats important. The ratio is merely a generalized summary of these points.
 

AndrewCarlson

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It's at least 75:25 in my opinion. It might even be worse, but there's no way it's any less than that. Marth is 80:20, and he doesn't have the projectiles to keep Ganondorf at bay.
 

hyperstation

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It's at least 75:25 in my opinion. It might even be worse, but there's no way it's any less than that. Marth is 80:20, and he doesn't have the projectiles to keep Ganondorf at bay.
Oh now I get it...Pit is Marth with wings and arrows! The logic is infallible!
 

Gleam

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Pit's projectile is madening, it's in the top...3 basically and is one of the few projectiles that can completely wreck Ganondorf. I'm a person who thinks projectiles are highly overated too...then again everytime I hear "Ganondorf sucks projectiles" I'm thinking projectiles ranging form Falco's (Good) lasers to Mario's (Bad) fireballs. But at point those arrows keep Ganondorf from approaching like hell.

If there's one good thing I can say right now, at least Pit as gimpable recovery.
 

AndrewCarlson

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Snide comment aside, that is not what I was getting at. Pit has the tools to deal with Ganondorf both close and long range. I simply tossed the Marth comment in because I main Marth and was comparing a similar match-up in which Ganondorf has a very hard time.
 

AndrewCarlson

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If there's one good thing I can say right now, at least Pit as gimpable recovery.
Unfortunately, his recovery most likely will not be gimped by Ganondorf of all characters. Not only does he lack a projectile, but gimping for any character is incredibly difficult if a Pit knows what he is doing. Pit's Up-B probably won't be used at all in this match-up since his glide is more than enough to return to the stage. If they do feel like using it, it will be far away from the stage so that it passes well above Ganondorf's reach.
 

Gleam

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Unfortunately, his recovery most likely will not be gimped by Ganondorf of all characters. Not only does he lack a projectile, but gimping for any character is incredibly difficult if a Pit knows what he is doing. Pit's Up-B probably won't be used at all in this match-up since his glide is more than enough to return to the stage. If they do feel like using it, it will be far away from the stage so that it passes well above Ganondorf's reach.

I guess we'll need to utilize the Flight of Ganon now.:laugh:
 

Kyuubi9t

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Pit's projectile is madening, it's in the top...3 basically and is one of the few projectiles that can completely wreck Ganondorf. I'm a person who thinks projectiles are highly overated too...then again everytime I hear "Ganondorf sucks projectiles" I'm thinking projectiles ranging form Falco's (Good) lasers to Mario's (Bad) fireballs. But at point those arrows keep Ganondorf from approaching like hell.

If there's one good thing I can say right now, at least Pit as gimpable recovery.
I dont know much about playing as ganondorf but how would you go about gimping pit? sounds nearly impossible to me... he just isnt agile enough. People tend to assume that just because Pit cant do anything if he is hit during his Wings, that he is easy to gimp. He is not. He is far from it, especially for a sluggish man like Ganondorf. Maybe you could manage to knock Pit out of the glide, but with his wings Pit could fly circles around Ganon and still land untouched.
 

SaltyKracka

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I dont know much about playing as ganondorf but how would you go about gimping pit? sounds nearly impossible to me... he just isnt agile enough. People tend to assume that just because Pit cant do anything if he is hit during his Wings, that he is easy to gimp. He is not. He is far from it, especially for a sluggish man like Ganondorf. Maybe you could manage to knock Pit out of the glide, but with his wings Pit could fly circles around Ganon and still land untouched.
Or he could just end up running into a tipman edgehog. Yeah, that sounds about right.
 

Gleam

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Ganon aerial's are actually pretty good to be honest, and with the discovery of the Super Ganon Jump. While it hasn't really been used too much, hypothetically speaking with it Ganondorf can reach any height. Now I'm sure any decent Pit isn't just going to try to Up B form the bottom of the stage or something stupid like that.
 

Kyuubi9t

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Ganon aerial's are actually pretty good to be honest, and with the discovery of the Super Ganon Jump. While it hasn't really been used too much, hypothetically speaking with it Ganondorf can reach any height. Now I'm sure any decent Pit isn't just going to try to Up B form the bottom of the stage or something stupid like that.
I do respect ganon's aerials. please excuse my laziness in not searching the Ganon boards, but could someone give me a quick and simple rundown of what this newly discovered super Ganon jump is/looks like, can it damage, and if youd like, how its performed?
 

Gleam

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I do respect ganon's aerials. please excuse my laziness in not searching the Ganon boards, but could someone give me a quick and simple rundown of what this newly discovered super Ganon jump is/looks like, can it damage, and if youd like, how its performed?
There's a thread like, right or two spots below the stickies called "Super Ganon Jump" Can't miss it. Helluva a lot of posts, great views...most popular thing since thunderstorming really.
 

AndrewCarlson

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I do respect ganon's aerials. please excuse my laziness in not searching the Ganon boards, but could someone give me a quick and simple rundown of what this newly discovered super Ganon jump is/looks like, can it damage, and if youd like, how its performed?
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=5806582

Against characters like Snake, whose aerial maneuverability is limited when using Cypher, it's a great edgeguarding tool. Against Pit, who can move quickly and freely during his Wings of Icarus, it's not of much use. If Pit sees Ganondorf using the super jump, he can just stop and hover until a proper opening. His Wings of Icarus can also travel to the upper blast line, where no character can ever reach. If used below the stage, it will be used to sweetspot or to go under the stage. Again, the same principles apply. It is just very difficult to gimp a Pit since they can just outsmart you.
 

Kyuubi9t

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okay i just took a glance at this new Ganondorf super jump technique. I must say, brawl is starting to get a little interesting, however it looks really hard and tough to time.

If one could do it with every attempt, it would become a useful technique, however this would change little against a versatile character like pit, and more against a character like zero suit who jumps high for no reason, is light, and could be killed with this super jump. I still hold the same opinion, Ganon will not gimp a good Pit
 

AndrewCarlson

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i would put it at 65:35, anyhigher than 70:30 and your pushing it. Matchups should NEVER go that high.
Sadly, there are match-ups far worse than that. Donkey Kong basically has a 10:90 match-up with Dedede due to the infinite chain grab. Fox has a 10:90 match-up with Pikachu due to his 0-80% chain grab to down smash combo that is usually an automatic K.O. followed by a Thunder. Fox also has a 20:80 match-up with Zero Suit Samus and a 25:75 with Sheik. So really, 30:70 is hardly ridiculous in comparison. Meta Knight has a bunch of 70:30s with the High and Middle Tiers. Considering that 65:35 implies only a solid advantage, that is not the best ratio for this match-up as Pit completely dominates Ganondorf.
 

A2ZOMG

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Pit is a 7/3 or 75/35 matchup IMO. I've gotten my *** handed to me by Pit so many times online.

His Arrows will stop you in your tracks. And his F-smash seems to be faster than liek, all of your attacks, and his D-smash out of shield is also pretty annoying as hell. You do have more range and KO power than he does, but he has really annoying edgeguarding on you tanks to those ****ed arrows, and one F-air or B-air off stage is enough to gimp you.

Basically, this matchup is really dumb and really difficult. Spacing is so critical for any hope of survival, because if you don't space right, you get punished, and spacing attacks carefully is like the only way you will get anything set up onto him since he has no trouble defending against blind rushdown most of the time. His grab range at least sucks, but it's probably better than yours (minus Flame Choke which is so hard to use in this matchup, but you do get Jab combos from it. =/).
 

AndrewCarlson

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75:25 seems like a good ratio to me. As far as positioning is concerned, Pit has some of the best grabs in the game. Also, be lucky that he doesn't have an D-air spike. Pit will usually try to Wall of Pain you with F-airs and B-airs.
 

:034:

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70:30 sounds about right.

Up-close, Pit's speed and multi-hit attacks will tear you to shreds. Far away, you have the arrows tracking you down.

What you gotta do is ABUSE your dtilt. Abuse the living fuck out of it. Why? It outranges most of Pit's close range attacks, and it's fast. You can't chain them together, but buffering it will certainly help you out. Spacing is the most important thing in this match-up, since once you go off-stage, you can count on your death. Ganon is gimped easily, don't expect to gimp Pit's Wings anytime soon. FoG can help against people who try to recover up high, but don't put too much faith in it.

As said before, Pit is weak from below, so uair is another savior in this match-up. It might help you if you manage to shield the WoP's... I'm not sure.

Pit is light, so save your dash attack. It'll kill him easier, and you'll need a really quick high-range killing move for him, unless you have a stage that can severely limit his flying... I can't think of any right now.

Basically:

On the ground: SPACING.
In the air: Try to get back to the ground, use uair to take him on from below.
Off-stage: Get back on the stage, don't expect to gimp a smart Pit.

PS: I really like people who play Pit. They're always nice and they don't seem to underestimate characters. It's a breath of fresh air. (geddit?)
 
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