"The Triforce of Knowledge" Ganon's Match-Up Guide: Character Review, Kirby.

[hyperstation]

The general problem I have with the zair is somewhere along these lines:

"Ah there's a missile/Charge Shot coming (roll through/powershield/side-dodge/jump over)"
"Awesome, I dodged it-"
*z-air to my face*
"Ow, wtf-"
*missile to my face*

Repeat.

That's very different than what you said about Zair just generally ****** Ganon. If this keeps repeating like you say, here's how you deal with it:

"Ah crap, missile's comin mah way, captain!"
"Cool, I power shielded it...now she's gonna do that zair...yep here she goes!"
"Nice, I spot dodged that one OoS! What's next...oh, here comes a missile! Those are slow enough to..."
"power shield...dope."

Eventually you're going to be able to read most of your opponent's attack patterns based on the distance from you that they've spaced themselves in conjunction with the way in which they jump.

Let me give you another scenario like the one you gave above:

"Oh sh*t, power missile incoming!"
"nice, I powershielded it"
"sh*t, samus just dash grabbed me through my shield. I shoulda tried to spot dodge and punish her with a SS FSmash during her grab cooldown"

Same technique, different follow-up. This is one of Samus's mainstay maneuvers. The missile isn't that different than bait insofar as it, like bait, causes you to make a move which sets you up predictably for something else. For Ganon, something similar might be feigning a UAir approach, opponent thinks they see opening for attack so they run in, but they eat a buffered Dtilt instead.

 

[DRaGZ]

But all of those just puts Ganondorf back in a neutral position. There is no advantage gained, as far as I can see. You may be able to get in a few hits, but those would primarily be due to Samus's screw-ups.

That is the problem.

 

[hyperstation]

But all of those just puts Ganondorf back in a neutral position. There is no advantage gained, as far as I can see. You may be able to get in a few hits, but those would primarily be due to Samus's screw-ups.

That is the problem.

Dude, that's just not true. As I said above, you're pretending as though Samus doesn't have down time in between moves. Let me explain. I think I described the dynamics of Ganon approaching Samus while she spams her projectile arsenal in more detail a couple pages back, but I'll do a summary here.

During missile assault, you can approach easily. Walk and power shield everything that comes your way. If you can't do this, you don't stand a chance, so I'm just going to assume you've got this ability. If she's missile cancelling only power missiles, you can run, crouch under the high missile, get up and walk forward, then power shield the low missile. If she's using homing missiles also, scratch the crouch technique and just power shield walk. You can also DA into them to gain more ground. This WILL STALE your DA though, so I prefer not to use it. DA is so important vs Samus (and everyone, really).

Once you get within a certain range, Zair will become a bigger possibility. At this point, you're going to be dealing with the same missile assault because she's still at a safe distance, but she'll also be SH Zairing. The missile spam will happen with vertical jumps (they have to in order to correctly missile cancel, i believe), and the Zairs, depending on spacing, will happen on SH vertical jumps or will happen via an approaching SH. Zairs can come out MAD low, remember that. Same method as listed above to deal with the missile spam, Zairs should be spot dodged or power shielded.

Once you get a little closer, missile spam will become less useful because you can punish it more easily. Zairs will be flying all over the place, and you'll start to see approaching SH flamethrowers/Dairs and retreating bomb jumps. If you get within melee range without doing so intelligently (that is, don't gerudo or wiz kick unless you're punishing their mistake), you're going to get hurt and she's probably going to use a move to kick you back outside of melee range in order to start spamming again.

Look, chances are you're going to take damage approaching Samus. This is the name of the game; it's how samus racks up damage. It's really not very difficult to deal with samus once you know your opponent's specific spam patterns. You might get hit back 3 or 4 times during your attempted approach, causing you to start over, but it's not like you're going to take massive damage in your approach...unless you just plain suck. You should be used to this type of approach abuse...you're playing GANON for god's sake.

 

[Ragnar0k]

I heard there's a DK discussion over here. For starters, both characters can spike the **** out of the other's recovery.

 

[itsthebigfoot]

yeah, i asked sliq about it a few months ago when AiB dk boards covered ganon.

anyway, dk is literally a bigger, faster, stronger version of you.

his bair is effective against pretty much your entire air game, on the ground he can outspace you with ftilt, downb, and fsmash (we mix it in with ftilt pokes) so you have problems getting in.

once you do get in, you can cause a lot of damage with a couple dairs to usmash, or sideb tech chases, but dk can mess you up too with jabs - dtilt - tech chase special of his choice. and if he doesn't wanna risk it he can wall you off fairly effectively.

KO wise, ganon can techincally kill earlier, but unless you can consistently land warlock punches... dk's gonna ko you earlier, punch works well against ganon since several moves have enough lag to punch through.

EDIT: in my experience 7-3 dk.

 

[Teronist09]

KO wise, ganon can techincally kill earlier, but unless you can consistently land warlock punches... dk's gonna ko you earlier.

I've never seen anyone use warlock more than two or three times in a serious match, let alone to attempt ko's at low %
and shouldn't choke be viable for racking up damage? Dk is a pretty big target. I've found choke mixed with stomp fakeouts can work sometimes.

 

[itsthebigfoot]

choke works fairly well, i think i mentioned the sideb tech chases

and yeah, i put the punch thing in there for dramatic effect, dk's practical kill moves kill quicker than yours

one thing you do have, sideb recovery is very scary for us, makes us have to mixup our gimps

 

[TP]

I've never seen anyone use warlock more than two or three times in a serious match, let alone to attempt ko's at low %

You're going to need to define "serious" for me.

To anybody: Can Ganon's reverse Uair beat DK's UpB recovery? I would imagine it makes a substantial difference if it does.

If I were to stop maining Ganon at some point, it would be to main DK. Same thing with more success, pretty much.

Ganon may lose more than DK, but he also has more Win.

 

[i1337]

i dont think ganons uair beats dks up b, idk though.

 

[itsthebigfoot]

You're going to need to define "serious" for me.

To anybody: Can Ganon's reverse Uair beat DK's UpB recovery? I would imagine it makes a substantial difference if it does.

If I were to stop maining Ganon at some point, it would be to main DK. Same thing with more success, pretty much.

Ganon may lose more than DK, but he also has more Win.

it doesn't, his dair does if dk goes low though, also, with DI, we only need to upb to go through edgeguarding attempts

and yeah... i've been recruiting ikes and ganons to become dk/bowser mains same notion of 5 hits and they die, its just easier to land the hits/harder to get killed, send me a pm if you ever wanna switch

 

[hyperstation]

Mad f*cking Benedict Arnolds up in the DK boards. DK is a DOPE character, no doubt, especially since I've been seeing BUM **** pretty much anything that comes his way at NYC tournaments for a year or so now. He's just...disgustingly good with DK.

 

[itsthebigfoot]

bum's still ****** nyc? i gotta start going to tournaments again, i used to be able to place top 8 consistently, now i can't keep up with dsf and mikehaze anymore. cbk is wrecking reno last i checked though

but yeah, most of the new dk's were old ganon mains, same with bowser (sliq's crazy with him)

 

[TP]

Just to clarify, I am NOT planning on switching to DK. Yes, we all know that Ganon is pretty much a worse version of him. That said, do you know what Ganon has more than anyone else? Pride. We Ganon mains are proud to rep a character who really needs a rep. We bear our burden with pride because we know it is the right thing to do. Also, Ganon said that if we leave, he will choke us in our sleep. But really it's mainly the pride thing.

 

[Swoops]

His u-air tipman does go through DK's UpB, but it takes some mad spacing. It is pretty worth it just difficult to pull off. Not to mention stomping DK, and also a walk off the edge f-air can murder a DK's recovery and send him careening off into the distance.

I'll have a good write up later as this is the competitive character with which I have the most experience. I play a pretty **** good DK who knows Ganon really f*cking well.

 

[Finns7]

Dk is a own machine...............At the highest levels of play DK can do things to ganon...inapropriate things. His out of shield game is overall better than urs and He can gimp the **** out of u

Dk is a heavy so he can be caught in some things but I dont recommend just spammin dair to set up combos, Im for dtilts with proper spacing and using ur sideB follow ups.

 

[powuh_of_PIE]

I will say this in Ganon's favor: DK players are used to surviving into very high %s, so catching a dair KO is easier than you think. But if DK keeps his head he should win with relative ease. As someone who plays both characters (though my Ganon still needs work), I'm calling it 6-4.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

Wow. Link, has a lot more advantage against Ganon then we thought <_<... Blubba proved it to me.

I just had to get that out.

 

[Swoops]

Helllllz yea, in my territory now.

This is probably one of my most experienced match ups, as I play a very good DK who knows his spacing like none other, punishes so well that it's ridiculous, and overall just has a great knowledge of the big ape.

In all honesty it's a tough match up, but not extremely tough by any stretch, and I play someone who knows Ganondorf in and out. DK rivals Ganon in both range and power, as well as having more survivability. DK's tilts are monster, along with his amazing b-air game, which really proves to be a hassle if you don't know what you're doing. If there's one thing to watch out for from DK, it's his great spacing and punishing game. You are really not going to be able to poke with d-tilt a whole lot. You'll just as soon get shielded and punished with a grab, f-tilt, or d-tilt. Stomp, as always, should be reserved for punishing if DK decides to get a little too tilt or grab happy at close range, just watch out for u-tilts and d-smashes as they can completely shut down stomp. Like I said before, a lot of DKs spacing can be really annoying, and especially with f-tilts and Down B's incredible range. If the DK is a good one, he's going to be at a certain distance, trying to out space you and capitalize on any stupid approaches you make with nasty punishment.

B-Air wall is certainly not god, and it can be eaten through successfully either through the first one, in between the two or the DJ whatever, or at the end. Wizkick can punish it either after the first one or after the second if he is far away when using it. U-air cuts through the first b-air with proper spacing, and if the DK is foolish enough to double b-air into your shield, free grab. DK is big but a smart one is not going to be juggled around by stomp combos...hell not that many smart players that know Ganondorf are going to be juggled around by stomp combos. Plus stomp>u-smash can be powershielded at 0%, so stick mainly to u-airing or reacting to whatever move DK makes. Gerudo game is pretty solid in this match up, but mostly due to DKs big size. You only have a jab guaranteed, and because of DKs recovery and its crazy invincibility frames, you aren’t going to get that many low-mid percent Gerudo>Jab>edgeguards. If you are a good murder chaser, a lot of times you’ll cause DK to wait for your follow up…you just got a free d-tilt or f-tilt. Back roll and get up attack are easy as hell to stomp though, so don’t be afraid to throw one out there, it’s not like it’ll have any lag.

I want to make a special mention of f-air though. Believe it or not, this can be a pretty useful tool in this match up if you know your spacing. It can crush f-tilt attempts, d-tilt attempts, down b attempts, his recovery, and b-airs even. When used correctly and at the right times, f-air can be very powerful in this match up.

DKs side B is actually one of his better punishers and it does insane amounts of shield damage. Over time I’ve been able to avoid it a little more by staying on my toes, so you should watch out for it. You can shield it if you have plenty to spare, but I would work on my spot dodge timing. Punish that ape with stomp, f-smash, or f-tilt…you have time.

DA is useful in this match up too. No guarantee after Gerudo, but it still has monster priority and can get you inside against a spacing DK like none other. It’ll also teach DK to really watch his b-air spam. Guard a f-tilt, power in with a DA. Just watch out for shield.

Oh yea…UpB…DKs UpB on the ground is actually pretty nasty. Know that he can’t move backwards with it though. That proves to be pretty helpful info for punishing it. A good DK is only going to use it at close ranges so if you get caught in it….shield and roll out. There’s not much you can do to punish from shield. At semi close ranges, you can space f-air properly to crush that ape’s furry noggin. So…do that.

I’d say 60:40 DKs favor…I’m leaning towards 55:45 though

 

[Serph]

That said, do you know what Ganon has more than anyone else? Pride. We Ganon mains are proud to rep a character who really needs a rep. We bear our burden with pride because we know it is the right thing to do.

/sheds tear

Anyway, as usual nobody should pay attention to me in this thread, since I know jack about most matchups (learning the ropes) . But all I'll say is that I quite enjoy fighting DK. With no projectiles on either side it's just a good ol' fashioned fist-fight. Trouble is, DK has bigger fists.

I like to think I'd be a DK man if ever I abandoned Ganondorf, but that just isn't going to happen. That said, I have a lot of respect for the big ape and the (seemingly few) people who main him.

Anyway, isn't DK vulnerable to a short-hopped stomp/thunder storm? He's a very large target, after all.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

Anyway, isn't DK vulnerable to a short-hopped stomp/thunder storm? He's a very large target, after all.

It is easier to land stomps on him then it is on others.

 

[Shadow Nataku]

DK is an interesting matchup if only because many of Ganon's normally harder to hit with attacks suddenly become reliable approaches. Ganon himself can throw out a flurry of absolutely evil BAir's since Donkey Kong standing will get hit by a normal BAir. He's tall enough as well to be caught up in a FJ NAir approach and if you're good enough to FF FAir at the end of it it keeps him at bay. Once you Gerudo him the stupid ape won't be getting away from you till he's eaten a few more Gerudo's. Although if you do Gerudo the stupid ape be very wary a <+B on a ground Gerudo is fatal for Ganondorf, aerial versions are safer.

However DK's edgeguard game and Up+B are disgusting he'll tear you apart once he gets you near the edge, I would much rather deal with a edgechasing Metaknight/Lucario than an edgeguarding DK. Not even Ganon's mighty UAir recoveries are guaranteed anymore thanks to DK's stupidly big arms and the Spinning Kong will outprioritize everything in Ganon's arsenal. Down+B is a disgusting setup/punisher and if he ever has a charged up Giant Punch beware as it will rip you apart and can follow up after almost any of DK's moves.

 

[SuSa]

Ah Snake vs Ganon... always a pretty fun matchup.

Alright now:

Snake is off-stage spike bait for Ganon. Dair will almost always kill us because of its raw power, and if you're desperate (or a stock above) a suprise down-B can spike us as well.

You will have to approach, because we will sit there and camp with grenades. However you must not rush in! If you rush in all we need to do is ftilt or utilt (aerial approach) so make sure to find a flaw or maybe bait an ftilt from the Snake before moving in. (Most of you will probably move in with ftilt/thunderstorm I'm going to guess)

Once you approach, its all about juggling snake. Thunderstorm him up into the air and do not let him touch the ground! Thanks to Ganon's awesome power and uair/bair (awesome moves to SH lol) Ganon can mess with Snake a bit.

Ganon's best hope to face a Snake is to pick a smaller stage, and possibly ban Smashville or Final Destination (Smashville because we have a moving bomb on that platform, which can totally kill you if you're not paying attention.. and FD because we outcamp you there (doesn't everyone?)

It's going to defiantly be an uphill battle, but compared to most Ganon can kill a Snake pretty early.

I'd rate it 63/35 Snake

 

[Gleam]

Yeah, Havokk basically thrashed me around with Mortar sliding nades and C4s who just out priortorized me and forced my approaches to dwindling pieces of nothingness on stages like Smashville.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Well, once you get a few hits on Snake, the matchup isn't so bad at all. It's just actually getting those hits on Snake in the first place.

His F-tilt is super gay, but you can challenge it with Dash attack or Wizkick if you read it, then shield. If you have guts, you can try Flame Choking him in the ending lag of F-tilt, and get a free Jab.

Oh yeah, and juggle him, and spike him, and stuff. Not to mention Haxjump F-air his high recoveries.

I'd agree with 65/35. Definitely a bad matchup, but you have dumb stuff on him lol.

 

[SaltyKracka]

This matchup get much better once you CP Rapebow Cruise.

 

[studly]

Ah Snake vs Ganon... always a pretty fun matchup.

Alright now:

Snake is off-stage spike bait for Ganon. Dair will almost always kill us because of its raw power, and if you're desperate (or a stock above) a suprise down-B can spike us as well.

You will have to approach, because we will sit there and camp with grenades. However you must not rush in! If you rush in all we need to do is ftilt or utilt (aerial approach) so make sure to find a flaw or maybe bait an ftilt from the Snake before moving in. (Most of you will probably move in with ftilt/thunderstorm I'm going to guess)

Once you approach, its all about juggling snake. Thunderstorm him up into the air and do not let him touch the ground! Thanks to Ganon's awesome power and uair/bair (awesome moves to SH lol) Ganon can mess with Snake a bit.

Ganon's best hope to face a Snake is to pick a smaller stage, and possibly ban Smashville or Final Destination (Smashville because we have a moving bomb on that platform, which can totally kill you if you're not paying attention.. and FD because we outcamp you there (doesn't everyone?)

It's going to defiantly be an uphill battle, but compared to most Ganon can kill a Snake pretty early.

I'd rate it 63/35 Snake

completly agree... i honestly think this may be the only way to approach this matchup

 

[itsthebigfoot]

I'd just like to throw this out, because i forgot last week, ganon is one of the 10 characters who die at 50% from a grab at the ledge. dk can walk off and dthrow away from the stage, then upb ledge stall, ganon can't make it back

 

[abit_rusty]

Ganon is one of the characters I've picked up since I got tired of Snake...so I guess I'll give my perspective from both sides.

Yes, Snakes will camp the crap out of you. Throw grenades back at him if he spams, or else throw them straight up if you have to immediately dispose of them. Other than that, you have to approach. I personally don't think that thunderstorming is very effective considering how close you have to get, and against someone who knows how Ganon plays (like me) I would just shield or spot-dodge and punish if I see you approaching straight into a dair. I'd use it more as a follow up or a punishing move rather than a straight up approach.

If I was the Ganon, I would do a mix of sh-bairs->ftilt/dtilt in an attempt to mess with the Snake's spacing, or else bait into a flame choke. I won't necessarily fully approach all the time, I'd rather coax the Snake into making the first move by putting myself in a seemingly vulnerable position. Then again, that's good general habit with any character, right?

I'm sure Ganons know not to abuse the grounded wiz kick and save it for higher percents when it can actually give you breathing room instead of shooting them up right near you (in Snake's case who will likely just do a bair right out of recovery from stun). However, utilizing the aerial wiz kick to send snake airborne and/or KO can be very useful. Aerial wiz kick is pretty **** strong.

Finally, this may just be my own playstyle, but I'd use flame choke as often as possible in punishing. It's your equivalent of Snake's dthrow in essence. You stop any momentum the Snake had. You can tech chase (though you do have a greater chance of getting punished if you miss the tech chase as opposed to Snake's dthrow), and if you predict well, it pays off with a well-landed dair/fair/dtilt and even sh-aerial wiz kick if you predict they'll stay in place. You can also use it to intercept Snake as he's landing on the ground from cypher, as he is most vulnerable to grabs during that time. Try baiting an airdodge out of Snake near the ground and go straight into aerial flame choke. Not too shabby.

Flame choke is f-ing ridiculous and by far my favourite ganon move.

The match up may be 65/35 Snake on average but I feel it's more like 70/30 Snake in higher end competitive play. Ganon is a beast but Snake has much more going for him in this game. While Ganon has the surefire KO power, scoring that KO is easier said than done.

Oh and ban FD for the love of Ganon. As for CP's I honestly have no idea. Somewhere that lets you close in fast, or somewhere gimmicky like Delfino for easy dair kills or Brinstar for the insta-death lava choke.

EDIT:
I wish I could get that wacky ganon super jump glitch to work, it seems like it would be pretty useful in this matchup....

 

[Blad01]

Here is the updated chart, Ray_Kalm :

 

[Ray_Kalm]

Here is the updated chart, Ray_Kalm :

Can you fix the Link and Ike match-up, before I put it up?

 

[Shadow Nataku]

Oh and ban FD for the love of Ganon. As for CP's I honestly have no idea. Somewhere that lets you close in fast, or somewhere gimmicky like Delfino for easy dair kills or Brinstar for the insta-death lava choke.

EDIT:
I wish I could get that wacky ganon super jump glitch to work, it seems like it would be pretty useful in this matchup....

CP stages was discussed heavily a while ago. Main consensus is Ganon would **** the hell out of Snake on Rainbow Cruise, Delfino Plaza, Brinstar and Norfair. Enough to make it an favourable matchup in Ganon's favour.

Also FoG isn't pretty useful, it is a gamebreaking tech against Snake. I know for a fact it more or less dooms Snake once he is off the ledge as he has no way of really recovering against Ganon's ridiculous aerial priority besides a very high recovery either with Cypher or a C4.

FoG pretty much cuts that out and its actually pretty easy to perform once you played enough Ganon.

Finally, this may just be my own playstyle, but I'd use flame choke as often as possible in punishing. It's your equivalent of Snake's dthrow in essence. You stop any momentum the Snake had.

Probably is your playstyle, I don't get carried away with Gerudo's on Snake simply because a cancelled Nikita or Mortar Slide will screw you over. Regardless Gerudo stopping Snake's momentum is entirely true, its a good reset move and why it is the central part of Ganon's game.

 

[hyperstation]

Where did a bunch of the match-up scores come from on that chart? 20-80 for Marth...REALLY? Someone please explain how marth is 20-80 and DDD is somehow only 30-70. I'd seriously question whether Marth is a hard counter to Ganon...that just sounds crazy to me, especially seeing it next to DDD's 30-70 (CGs, projectiles, out ranged by his f-tilt).

Also, isn't Samus 25-75? Or are we operating only in multiples of ten? If that's the case, that's 30-70, not 20-80.

 

[Swoops]

Yea, I also don't know where the hell some of those match up numbers came from. I think we should start doing all the match up numbers according to these re done ones anyways. I agreed with a lot of adumbrodeus' numbers, but we should keep those blanks until they've been rediscussed.

Mainly because some of them should be revamped. Marth and Samus having the same extreme advantage against Ganon? I have played a few really good Marth's lately, and it isn't 20-80. And I certainly wouldn't make Samus 20-80. Marth and Samus aren't near as bad of match ups as Falco and Lucario. Not to mention the Wario match up needs to be discussed again seeing as we have chain grabs, stomps, and insane amounts of damage and KO opportunities just off of grab release.

Falcon definitely isn't 50-50 if Ike is, and especially if Jiggz is 60-40.

 

[hyperstation]

...but we should keep those blanks until they've been rediscussed.

QFMFT

I could easily see marth as a soft counter between 40-60 and 30-70. I take martha to the wash every time.

 

[adumbrodeus]

QFMFT

I could easily see marth as a soft counter between 40-60 and 30-70. I take martha to the wash every time.

Yea, I also don't know where the hell some of those match up numbers came from. I think we should start doing all the match up numbers according to these re done ones anyways. I agreed with a lot of adumbrodeus' numbers, but we should keep those blanks until they've been rediscussed.

Mainly because some of them should be revamped. Marth and Samus having the same extreme advantage against Ganon? I have played a few really good Marth's lately, and it isn't 20-80. And I certainly wouldn't make Samus 20-80. Marth and Samus aren't near as bad of match ups as Falco and Lucario. Not to mention the Wario match up needs to be discussed again seeing as we have chain grabs, stomps, and insane amounts of damage and KO opportunities just off of grab release.

Falcon definitely isn't 50-50 if Ike is, and especially if Jiggz is 60-40.

Marth's spacing game is incredibly deadly against Ganondorf. Realistically his 4 safe pokes (fair, dtilt, ftilt, nair) in addition to his insane punishment game **** Ganondorf.


High level match-up develops like this:


Marth gets Ganondorf into poke spacing, Ganondorf has no tool to force a close approach. This means that Marth can freely apply all the sheild pressure he wants and Ganondorf is forced to approach from that spacing since there's no way to force a more advantagious spacing without approaching, this isn't nessecarily a disadvantage, but against Marth it always is effectively.


Unfortunately, Marth's OOS game is INCREDIBLE, tap his shield with anything and you're either getting a dancing blade or a Dolphin slash to the face. 4 frame start up and 0 frame start-up (invincable till the frame 5 hitbox) btw. This means that even the normally safe reverse uair doesn't work, Marth just punishes too well and the shield-stun isn't enough.

Don't even try d-tilt, he can punish that too.



So, like Ganondorf against Captain Falcon, forced to approach via a safe poke move (or projectiles for that matter) and every approach is punishable. That means a disadvantage right there.




They both have nice edge-guarding options, but Marth is gonna be so much better at getting Ganondorf off-stage, especially since the optimal spacing for Marth happens to be his sweet-spot, and Ganondorf is reletively easy to edgeguard.


Also, Marth has a safe on block kill move here, which is his last poke, nair. That is Marth's primary weakness in most match-ups. Gone. That and the pokes are unpredictable.


To add insult to injury, fair KILLS murder choke, it's too fast and has too large a hitbox, and is too disjointed. That's both ground and aerial murder choke btw.

As another little insult, no guarenteed murder choke follow-ups on Marth.

And then there's just his zoning game, he can wall you the entire match by throwing out hitboxes to prevent you from even being close to him.



80-20, Marth is a HORRIBLE match-up for Ganondorf. I'd venture to say he might be worse then MK and DDD. Ganondorf's only advantage here is early kills via tipman and Marth's lightness. Definately a lot worse then Samus, Marth just shuts Ganondorf down when played properly.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

Marth's spacing game is incredibly deadly against Ganondorf. Realistically his 4 safe pokes (fair, dtilt, ftilt, nair) in addition to his insane punishment game **** Ganondorf.


High level match-up develops like this:


Marth gets Ganondorf into poke spacing, Ganondorf has no tool to force a close approach. This means that Marth can freely apply all the sheild pressure he wants and Ganondorf is forced to approach from that spacing since there's no way to force a more advantagious spacing without approaching, this isn't nessecarily a disadvantage, but against Marth it always is effectively.


Unfortunately, Marth's OOS game is INCREDIBLE, tap his shield with anything and you're either getting a dancing blade or a Dolphin slash to the face. 4 frame start up and 0 frame start-up (invincable till the frame 5 hitbox) btw. This means that even the normally safe reverse uair doesn't work, Marth just punishes too well and the shield-stun isn't enough.

Don't even try d-tilt, he can punish that too.



So, like Ganondorf against Captain Falcon, forced to approach via a safe poke move (or projectiles for that matter) and every approach is punishable. That means a disadvantage right there.




They both have nice edge-guarding options, but Marth is gonna be so much better at getting Ganondorf off-stage, especially since the optimal spacing for Marth happens to be his sweet-spot, and Ganondorf is reletively easy to edgeguard.


Also, Marth has a safe on block kill move here, which is his last poke, nair. That is Marth's primary weakness in most match-ups. Gone. That and the pokes are unpredictable.


To add insult to injury, fair KILLS murder choke, it's too fast and has too large a hitbox, and is too disjointed. That's both ground and aerial murder choke btw.

As another little insult, no guarenteed murder choke follow-ups on Marth.

And then there's just his zoning game, he can wall you the entire match by throwing out hitboxes to prevent you from even being close to him.



80-20, Marth is a HORRIBLE match-up for Ganondorf. I'd venture to say he might be worse then MK and DDD. Ganondorf's only advantage here is early kills via tipman and Marth's lightness. Definately a lot worse then Samus, Marth just shuts Ganondorf down when played properly.

Yeah, 80-20 is right.

And I certainly wouldn't make Samus 20-80. Marth and Samus aren't near as bad of match ups as Falco and Lucario.

Samus gets a lot harder, the higher the level of play gets. I tried as hard as I possibly could against Xyro, a while back, but when Samus starts predicting all of our approaches, you can't really do anything to stop the punishment. She has a counter for "everything" we throw at her, from gerudos to instant dash attacks, there isn't one thing that we can do as a approach that she isn't able to avoid.

Her side of play is pretty easy, retreating jump z-airs if we jump, retreating z-air if we try making direct approach, F-tilt stops gerudo.

Seriously though, she uses her Z-air and projectiles as we ''could' use our gerudo, and her benifts her more.

Yeah, we don't have much on her.

 

[Koskinator]

I played Xyro awhile back, we went 5-2 in his favour. This was over a month ago though, I think I could do better now. Definetly a difficult matchup, but not impossible. If you cant powershield, your basically ****ed.

 

[Zezima0123]

Excellent thread...i've also seen the other messed up ones you sir have won the Forum of Ganondorf you will see me looking at this thread often.

 

[hyperstation]

That's all well and good theoretically, Adumbrodeous, but in practice that's not how matches go down. The reason the matchup is by no means 20-80 comes down to RANGE and PRESSURE, and more specifically, the relationship between the two. Yes, as you exhaustively explained, Marth can out space Ganon with his poking, and can punish well when Ganondorf approaches. Theoretically, Marth should be able to space himself in a way that Ganon never gets at him, and if he DOES, then he can punish. Frame data says all of this is true. The thing is, Marth has no way of FORCING Ganon to approach. His RANGE is not great enough to space himself safely spaced from Ganon and still turn on the heat.

Now hold your horses, don't start typing your reply just yet; I'm not saying what you probably think I'm saying. What I mean to say is, his advantage in range via approaching pokes is not great enough to keep Ganon far enough at bay to keep him from being very dangerous. That is, essentially, Marth doesn't have a projectile to literally force Ganon to make a move or just endure spam (DDD), and neither has the speed advantage to force Ganon to make a sloppy move (MK). Ganon can remain safely outside of Marth's range while still throwing out bait which sets him up for follow-ups which exceed Marth's range. This is exactly how I play this match at tournament level.

On paper, Marth swamps this poor dude, but in practice, it's an entirely different beast. Marth can sit there and poke all day, but I'm not going to be in range, so it doesn't matter. He can punish me with quick moves OoS, but I'm not going to approach cavalierly, so it likewise doesn't matter. I will entirely agree that Marth has the advantage in this match-up, but it's not 20-80 because Martha just can't put on the pressure. Ganon and he are both waiting for the other character to come within range or make a mistake, and that is why on-paper advantages like slightly out-ranging Ganon or 0 frame dolphin slash don't allow Marth all the advantages in practice that you suggest they do on paper.

Feel free to disagree, of course. Closing: it's insulting to suggest that Marth is a harder matchup than DDD at tournament level play. It's just...SO wrong. I'm not sure I'd disagree with people if they suggested that DDD (or falco, for that matter) was 90-10.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Marth vs Ganon isn't 80/20. This is why.

http://nicozon.blog64.fc2.com/?video_id=sm5044061

Also, I will add, I'm pretty sure your D-tilt outranges DB and his D-tilt, so if you space well, try to catch him off guard on the last hit and own him.

You have to bait for an opening, but fortunately, Marth is weak from below, so once you get a hit, you have opportunities to follow up.