"The Triforce of Knowledge" Ganon's Match-Up Guide: Character Review, Kirby.

[Ray_Kalm]

Yoshi vs Ganon.

Egg spam is the last thing you need to worry about. Except for the fact it makes you approach.

What really frustrates Ganon in this matchup is the fact Yoshi is in the air a lot. Meaning Ganon can't exactly rely on out of shield tactics as much as he would like. Instead, Ganon needs to play a more aerial based game. Well-timed SH U-airs allow him to compete with Yoshi in the air.

Thunderstorm isn't as good here because of Yoshi's air game, and his ground game occasionally ducks under your stomps.

Up-B edgeguard is good against Yoshi since it both can grab him out of his jump and does not return it back.

Jab and Dash attack out prioritizes almost all of Yoshi's attacks. I just fought a Yoshi pro today, and I was at equal grounds with him. Short hopping to air dodge to jab almost before everything he did.

 

[Tristan_win]

I would have to say the match up of Sheik vs Ganondorf is about 90/10 in Sheik favor if not more. Such things like the fact sheik can duck under a large amount of his attacks, has a huge frame advantage in all of her attack(while having good range), and can also do chain keep away on Ganondorf starting even in the low % means with all honestly Ganondorf shouldn't win this match. Not to mention the ftilt lock, air superiority, and can gimp ganondorf very easily.

When both players learn the match up and begin to get good at it I can see only sheik doing better as time goes on as she has a wide selection of options and Ganondorf is confine to his "bread and butter" patterns

 

[choknater]

IDIOTS!

Okay, so Sheik v Ganon is around 140:-40

Reasons I believe this:

- Needles deplete his viability as a character choice
- Choosing Sheik at the character select screen is an auto-win
- Ftilt takes away his manhood
- Sheik's edgeguarding is more effective than infinites
- This all adds up to Sheik having an over 100% advantage on Ganon, and putting him into the negative

Spoiler

Ganon can do okay if he attacks unexpectedly, esp. with dair, usmash's priority, or a well-placed dash attack. Sheik is easy to KO but good luck to any Ganon trying to fight against Sheik's speedy onslaught. For Sheik, it's not a matter of trying to win, it's a matter of trying not to lose a stock or two in the guaranteed victory.

Ganon does better against Zelda imo

 

[Blad01]

I main both. This match-up is between 20-80 and 10-90. >_<

 

[demodemo]

could not have put it better choknator

10-90 IMO.

my friend plays ganon lots, and we often say he wins the match if he manages to take a stock off me, since it rarely ever happenes. its a whole lot of fun for sheiks lol

basically, ganon is huge, but does not have the uber characteristics other characters like DK and dedede have. this means sheik can literally lock in him dtilt, then transfer to ftilt, then transfer to utilt, to maybe even a fair, (if not, airdodge the fair will get you punished, either by a grab or even more ftilts) which will eventually lead to even more fair, fair sadgjklasdgjah > death. plus, if i were feeling like a little *****, i can just ftilt him until infinity but wheres the fun in that?

the one thing ganon can do is dair. sheik cannot juggle ganondorf as well as she could because his dair stops her aerial approach (namely uair and poorly spaced aerials). but then again, approaching with rar'd bair and fair works so lol nice try come again

his recovery (side b and up b) is predictable, bair goes through both if timed right, fair can connect before ganon can start up b (essentially stock right there) and he is so big i can easily land 2-3 fairs regularly before returning to the stage. i have landed 4 and returned to the stage before.

 

[TP]

This match is 100-i.

The probability of Ganon beating Sheik is not a real number.

If we squared his chances of winning, it would be -1.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

100:0

I mean. ganon should never win this. Sheik outspeeds everything ganon's got with just about everything she's got.

a sheik with a stock/damage advantage can pull out a chain under a platform and make it IMPOSSIBLE for ganondorf to approach through it.

sheik can needle camp all day to GET that advantage. Needles wreck ganon's approach too

ganon is also slow and large enough to get reamed by sheik's Usmash, but even if you DON'T hit with that. she can edgeguard ganon like it's nothing.

sheik has SUCH a frame advantage on ganondorf, thet sheik can essentially pick whatever way she wants to counter any of ganon's attacks.

On offense, she's too fast for ganon to deal with and on defense she's got too many options against every one of ganon's viable approaches.

Not to mention the gimping, camping and brickwalling sheik can do to ganon. True ganon can kill sheik at low damage, but the amount of times he should be hitting sheik relative to how quickly sheik kills him means that the big question here is "two stock or three stock"

Ganondorf has ONE move sheik doesn't really have an instant response for: Uair. but as long as sheik knows that, then ganon's chances are crap since that move can't carry your whole gameplay.

maybe 100:0 seems too harsh because, I mean, ganon MIGHT win if the sheik is really bad. but the way this matchup works, ganon wins if sheik LETS ganondorf win. if sheik knows what it's doing, ganondorf has a 0% chance of winning the matchup no matter how many times its played. The only way ganon will win this one is if sheik is making some serious mistakes. and anytime one charcter has THAT much control over a matchup. it's not right to insinuate that the other side has ANY chance of winning.

call it 90:10 if you want, but, for all intents and purposes, this is an utterly impossible matchup.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I agree with 90/10. This matchup is way too difficult for Ganon. I believe this is Ganon's 2nd hardest matchup.

Needle camping means that Ganon has to approach.

Because she's really low on the ground on many attacks and quick in the air, she is incredibly difficult to Thunderstorm or hit out of shield, which is 80% of Ganon's game. D-smash is retardedly hard to punish because of this. In general Sheik's moveset is retardedly hard for Ganon to punish just because she is almost always just outside of the height or range in which Ganon can safely attack her.

You have no guaranteed Flame Choke combos on her.

F-tilt -> U-smash does like 70% off the bat.

She gimps you waaaaaaay too easily.

She really doesn't have any trouble KOing Ganon....since he really doesn't have any good counters to her moveset.

Consensus: Pick a different character.

Still, I had some pretty epic matches with marsulas's Sheik on the AllIsBrawl ladder, and I won! LOLOLOLOLOLOLOL!

Yeah, you can try to juggle her after you get a hit. Dash attack is your best bet for a hit (and well, it doesn't work that well since she can needle camp). Once she's offstage, don't miss a **** opportunity to gimp her. Reverse U-air is enough to gimp her recovery if you can land it.

 

[Jekyll]

D-tilt is guaranteed out of Flame Choke.

You can smash DI out of her f-tilts and jump away after a couple of hits.

I don't think these things make the matchup any better, but just thought I'd throw them out there.

 

[-Mars-]

D-tilt is guaranteed out of Flame Choke.

You can smash DI out of her f-tilts and jump away after a couple of hits.

I don't think these things make the matchup any better, but just thought I'd throw them out there.

You better have your second jump available or it's unescapable. Also if you DI behind me, I can just turn around and resume the ftilt.

A2ZOMG: To be fair to me........you switched to Mario for the last match

 

[A2ZOMG]

D-tilt is guaranteed out of Flame Choke.

No, it's a situational follow up as far as I've seen. It only works if she attacks if I recall. I can remember buffering this technique on her several times and it missed.

You can smash DI out of her f-tilts and jump away after a couple of hits.

Be careful you don't jump in the process. That can get ugly.

EDIT: Lol marsulas, still, I won with Ganon on battlefield. Doesn't mean jack **** about the matchup though cause you were only just unprepared for my gimp strategies and later in matches learned to get around it. Like u-air edgeguard at 20% (or something ridiculous) was 2 gud. And yeah, of course I switched to Mario. That's cause I quickly learned Ganon vs Sheik was pretty unwinnable. =P

2500 posts already? O_o

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

why does that even matter? needle's and chain > Flame choke 100% of the time. as is spotdodge -> anything in sheik's moveset

 

[Blad01]

why does that even matter? needle's and chain > Flame choke 100% of the time. as is spotdodge -> anything in sheik's moveset

Exactly. Yes, 10-90 or even 0-100. Well to be honest i don't see why this match-up should be less than 0-100...

 

[Swoops]

Try to stay the hell away from f-tilt? That's all I got >.>

EDIT: And Gerudo>D-tilt is guaranteed

 

[-Mars-]

I love your guys' matchup discussions because you all know how to accept your characters' weaknesses and you all just go out and **** anyways.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

EDIT: And Gerudo>D-tilt is guaranteed

yes it is. Iunno who debated it. I merely made the point that it doesn't particularly matter because sheik has so many ways around flame choke it's not funny.


in my personal opinion, there's not any charcter more directly designed to coutner another than sheik is against a ganondorf.

 

[A2ZOMG]

why does that even matter? needle's and chain > Flame choke 100% of the time. as is spotdodge -> anything in sheik's moveset

Flame Choke is one of the few attacks Ganon absolutely relies on to change momentum.

I mean, if he reads you doing some other attack, it's his number one punish attack in many matchups due to the combos it sets up. If he doesn't have any guaranteed follow ups, he has to resort to techchasing, and Ganon's physics just make him kinda bad at techchasing.

Personally me, I've not been able to D-tilt Sheik consistently from a Flame Choke.

Ganon's worst matchup is the Ice Climbers if you ask me though.

 

[TP]

We have to make the official number for Sheik against Ganon 90-10 if you ask me, since the Ice Climbers are NOT this easy to fight.

Or we can make this match 100-0 and Ice Climbers LOL-STFU. Those words summarize how the match goes quite accurately.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

We have to make the official number for Sheik against Ganon 90-10 if you ask me, since the Ice Climbers are NOT this easy to fight.

Or we can make this match 100-0 and Ice Climbers LOL-STFU. Those words summarize how the match goes quite accurately.

as a sheik main my input would be: both are unwinnable. that would make 100:0 the "correct" way to word both of them... however, for purposes of comparision, I suppose 95:05 or something like that would be fine for sheik so you can emphasize that the ICs are harder.

for all intents and purposes, anything after 75:25 is stupid to fight anyway.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Sheik is 90/10. Ice Climbers are either 95/5, or 100/0.

You only win against Sheik if you get in a hit and do an ungodly number of things she doesn't predict, and then finish her with a gimp, which is super situational. Yeah, that happened once against marsulas. I don't expect it to happen again anytime soon.

Ice Climbers uh...your opponent just sucks too much if they don't win this. Or they are suffering from wifi lag. Or both. Or they don't know what a chaingrab is.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Sheik is 90/10. Ice Climbers are either 95/5, or 100/0.

You only win against Sheik if you get in a hit and do an ungodly number of things she doesn't predict, and then finish her with a gimp, which is super situational. Yeah, that happened once against marsulas.

Ice Climbers uh...your opponent just sucks too much if they don't win this. Or they are suffering from wifi lag. Or both.

that's what I'm saying. the odds of doing that ungodly number of things is nowhere near double digits.

Iceclimbers is even worse, that's true. but whether you have a 1:1000 or a 1:100 chance to do it, it's still gonna look roughly the same on a 1-100 scale.

Iceclimbers might be twice as hard as sheik, but they are both SO bad that they are unwinnable unless massive mistakes are made.

If ICs are really that bad. they need to be 100:0 no doubt about it, but considering I have never lost a sheik v. ganondorf against anyone ever and I think most people mirror that, I'd say sheik is unwinnable as well. They are both essentially less than 5% likely for ganon to win, but giving one of them 100:0 and the other 95:05 to rank them is fine. I was just stating that they are both probably as bad as this type of chart can rate them honstly.

anything that gets the point across "COUNTERPICK IMMEDIATELY" would probably work, but if you want to be honest, neither are better than 95:05

 

[Ray_Kalm]

I find Ice-Climbers a bit easier to fight, then Sheik. Especially when in Battlefield. While they both have serious advantage, most of Ice-climber's advantage comes from their great grab chains, range and releases, along with their raw KO power. Sheik has a lot more on us then just chain grabs, her whole move set is pathetically counteracting Ganon's. Using the platforms in Battlefield wisely could actually turn things around, against Ice-climbers.

 

[A2ZOMG]

IceBlock and Blizzard camping is harder for Ganon to deal with than needle camping. This forces Ganon to approach and get shieldgrabbed.

Ice Climbers have a better out of shield game than Sheik. You cannot do anything to the ICs when they shield.

Chaingrab to spike offstage is completely inescapable and impossible to survive if done right.

F-smash desynch is super ********.

You literally only have one attack against the Ice Climbers, and that's D-tilt. You can't grab them because there is two of them.

Also, they are harder to juggle because they have several aerials that outprioritize Ganon's, and for similar reasons I find them harder to edgeguard.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

IceBlock and Blizzard camping is harder for Ganon to deal with than needle camping. This forces Ganon to approach and get shieldgrabbed.

have you ever faught a sheik that knew how to chain camp?

you have nothing that goes through it besides maybe a warlock punch.... like sheik is going to let you get that off.

 

[Blad01]

Agreed with Ray_Kalm. ICs are a bit easier to fight on BF, where Sheik is even harder.

I think both match-up could have the same rate, between 10-90 and 0-100. ICs could be 5-95 (considering the BF option... which could give you 5% chances of winning), and Sheik 0-100.

 

[Snowstalker]

I'd say that Shiek is 99:1. Much better than Ice Climbers, which are OMGWTFBBQ.

 

[Tristan_win]

have you ever faught a sheik that knew how to chain camp?

you have nothing that goes through it besides maybe a warlock punch.... like sheik is going to let you get that off.

The warlock punch doesn't out range the chain >_>'

...just clearly that up.

edit: I like how the discussion has shifted from about sheik to possible match up's worst then sheik.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

The warlock punch doesn't out range the chain >_>'

...just clearly that up.

edit: I like how the discussion has shifted from about sheik to possible match up's worst then sheik.

hence the maybe.... fine then. NOTHING outranges the chain. and if there's a platform above us, you can't even try to get us from above. it's a sad sight to be brickwalled by a chain.

and that's because it's just such and AWFUL matchup that there needs to be SOMETHING to talk about.

 

[TP]

Is there any lag when you retract the chain? Standing there waiting outranges it, and that is our best approach if it has end lag.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Is there any lag when you retract the chain? Standing there waiting outranges it, and that is our best approach if it has end lag.

which is why sheik pulls it out when sheik is ahead. we can wait until the clock runs out

 

[-Mars-]

Is there any lag when you retract the chain? Standing there waiting outranges it, and that is our best approach if it has end lag.

You could stay out of range and then Gerudo during the time Sheik retracts the chain or you could Wizkick. Honestly though in a tournament setting if I felt like being a ****, i'd jab you once and then chain camp for 8 minutes...............what are you going to do?

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

You could stay out of range and then Gerudo during the time Sheik retracts the chain or you could Wizkick. Honestly though in a tournament setting if I felt like being a ****, i'd jab you once and then chain camp for 8 minutes...............what are you going to do?

if they are smart, wizkick off the edge. 8 minutes is a long time to wait.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Well, Ganon has attacks that outrange the chain if he's behind Sheik. But it's just ******** for him to get there in the first place.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Well, Ganon has attacks that outrange the chain if he's behind Sheik. But it's just ******** for him to get there in the first place.

if sheik positions herself right. he can't get there.

 

[Blad01]

UTilt doesn't outrange the chain ? And the aerial wizkick doesn't outprioritizes it ?

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

UTilt doesn't outrange the chain ? And the aerial wizkick doesn't outprioritizes it ?

Utilt is far too slow even if it does. besides. since it sucks in first, all it'll do is suck us forward into you so we hit you with a chain and stop it. Of course we also have the option of dropping the chain, attacking and pulling the chain back out if you do that.

As for aerial wizkick, sheik is most vulnerable from above while chaining. A good one will still knock out aerial approaches with all of its range, but that doesn't matter because chain camping tends to be done under platforms so... no. wizkick doesn't win out because wizkick gets stopped by platforms and sheik just knocks you off off of them.

I supposes you can always "counterpick" FD against sheik, assuming you CAN actually get through chain with it, which I'm not sure you can. but all that does is limit one of her tricks. and with no platforms to aide you, ganon has a hard time getting in the right position for the aerial wizkick and sheik can retract the chain, sheild and then do just about anything to knock dorf away and resume chain camping.

 

[-Mars-]

I was under the impression that Wizkick doesn't even have good priority to begin with? Even if it does I can almost guarantee you that the chain has more. Wizkick is also easily read and wouldn't be hard at all to protect myself from above with the chain. The most serious threat to Sheiks chain camping atm is MK's dair........certainly better than anything Ganon has.

 

[powuh_of_PIE]

So apparently Sheik vs Ganon is 99:1 because Ganon won only once in the history of the matchup
and that was against you, marsulas
how will you ever live with yourself? haha j/k
but yeah I would contribute to this, but everything has already been said.

 

[Shadow Nataku]

I was under the impression that Wizkick doesn't even have good priority to begin with?

The ground version is the sucky one the Aerial version has disgustingly high priority (and ending lag) due to having a absolutely massive disjointed hitbox and a double hitbox from landing. It is also both a KO move and a spike.

but all that does is limit one of her tricks. and with no platforms to aide you, ganon has a hard time getting in the right position for the aerial wizkick

Ganon has no problems aerial wizkicking, FoG is quite easy to pull off and lets Ganon quite literally cover the whole of Final Destination in one jump in no time.

Honestly though in a tournament setting if I felt like being a ****, i'd jab you once and then chain camp for 8 minutes...............what are you going to do?

Watch us be disqualified for time wasting.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

The ground version is the sucky one the Aerial version has disgustingly high priority (and ending lag) due to having a absolutely massive disjointed hitbox and a double hitbox from landing. It is also both a KO move and a spike.


Ganon has no problems aerial wizkicking, FoG is quite easy to pull off and lets Ganon quite literally cover the whole of Final Destination in one jump in no time.

but ganon has to get himself pretty high above sheik to get it off. if he doesn't, he wont make it through to hit us. and he can't quickly put himelf in that position, he needs to jump to get there, which gives us a LOT of time to retract the chain and knock ganon away to camp again. and if there are platforms, we can just hide below one and you're sunk.

Watch us be disqualified for time wasting.

it's not considered banworthy stalling. it's just brickwalling and ganon's a toothpick to the brick wall.