"The Triforce of Knowledge" Ganon's Match-Up Guide: Character Review, Kirby.

[Ray_Kalm]

I really haven't had time to read through every single post in this forum as there is 30 pages lol, but the matchup Thread shows we have a 60:40 matchup against jigglypuff? I am confused on this one. I understand we can kill her at like 40 percent, but my brother plays a good puff and spaces very well and makes it almost impossible to even hit her. She seems to out range or be able to just float around anything that I can possibly do. every time I play against him its not even close. I have tried everything. He just floats over or air dodges my F-tilts and IDA and jabs, and just attacks thrrough my gerudo so it is basically worthless unless you catch them with an aerial one, but the problem arise if you miss you get sleep'd or hit into a combo, and if I get hit off the edge its not even possible to recover I have tried everything to stop from getting combo'd out of the map or to, get back on the ledge from the puff wall of pain. Just combos me out of the stage then floats back. I have tried counter-picking stages to prevent myself from getting ledge guarded Easily, but it still doesn't seem to help as I can never land an attack on a properly spaced puff. I have been looking for guides or anything on how to fight a Well played puff but have yet to find anything. As for ledge guarding the tipman really doesn't do any good as it is very difficult to land even when doing the fastfall tipman, as well as the Dair. Any good puff can easily avoid those attacks and still recover. The F-smash is really the only thing that I am seeing that I could use to completely out range her because of its disjointed hitbox, but the problem arises if you miss you get punished so you can't spam it. Possibilities that I have tried are spacing with the Bair or the SH Uair, but I haven't tried it a whole lot as usually I am constantly pressured where I can barely even get attacks in.

Please if anyone has any info or Ideas please let me know. I will see if I can get some video's or something of how I play to post so people can see what I am doing and let me know what I am doing wrong.

I don't find this match-up in Ganondorf's favor either. How did it get on the chart? I don't know.

 

[The_NZA]

Now ,I haven't played that much Ganondorf but it seems like he would be at a significant disadvantage against ness.
The speed barrier is a major problem (in addition to lacking a projectile). Ness might walk slow (not as slow as ganon) but he is nimble in the air. His Fair out ranges many of ganon's moves , not to mention pkfire spam is an extermely viable strategy against ganon (as he is a slow target). I'd wager to say pkfire would **** the ish out of ganon, and since ness has (IMO) the best spike in the game, ganon's recovery would be significantly gimped.

I will not give out a ratio of what hte matchups would look like since I have'nt played enough against ganon.

 

[Ref]

The match up is really even against Ganondorf.... I mean we out range him in some ways but ganon can gimp Ness pretty well... The other way is the same.

Wizard foot always throws off my dash attacks PK fire and landing.

Know how to DI out of PK fire with ganondorf. Wizard kick is great for punishing/ going over pk fire when you know or see it coming...

Isn't Flame choke to d tilt a combo on Ness....?



The jab is great on Ness...

Maybe I was just really bored or tired of brawl when playing this match up...

 

[Uffe]

Isn't Flame choke to d tilt a combo on Ness....?

Eh. I'd say about 55:45 or 50:50. The Flame Choke > d-tilt is a combo on just about any character. But you can DI away from it, if that's the correct term. Both Ganondorf's power and slow movements are often times overlooked and people think that just because Gdorf is like this, he's easy to beat. The fact is, he may be slow, but it's that power that really helps Gdorf out. He's almost like Ike in a way. And yes, us Ness mains have PK Fire, but Gdorf can oddly enough fly over that with his Wizard's Foot.

Ganondorf has two great tilts. His f-tilt and d-tilt, both great for spacing and both have pretty good power in them. His uair is more outrageous than Captain Falcon's, too and his dash attack can kill Ness early on in a match. Anyway, what Ness has on Gdorf? Speed, projectile and possibly just the same amount of KO potential as Gdorf, if not more or less. I'll admit, Gdorf is tough for me. I'm not sure if I've gone against some "pro" players that use him, but from my experience, he's not exactly easy to beat as you might think.

 

[Earthbound Zero]

I play this matchup a lot, since one of the people I brawl the most mains Ganon.

In the air, Ganon's Uair is amazing, Ness has a hard time getting around it, and off stage it can stage spike. The huge problem in the air for Ganon is that his horizontal attacks (Bair and Fair) are completely out ranged by Ness, and near useless in this matchup. Dair is some what situational, but racks up a ton of damage, and kills Ness is he's on the ground. Wizard Foot is a huge annoyance at first, but is actually very punishable with almost all of Ness' aerials, and PK Fire and Thunder. You just have to be very quick about it, Ness wins by a somewhat large degree in the air.

On the ground, Ganon's choke and wizard foot are horrible for Ness, but thankfully are both avoided by a spot dodge, so it not really a on which to dodge. Choke>Dtilt is a combo on Ness, and if you predict Ness' movements, you can choke Ness more than once thanks to his long getting up attack. Ganon easily can escape the edge of PK Fire and the first hit, so PK Fire is only useful when Ganon is approaching with choke, or just running towards you. Ganon can also escape PK Fire using his Wizard's foot, bewary of this. Using Dash Attack isn't a good approach against Ganon, because of Wizard's foot, so using aerials near the ground is a better approach, PK Jump is somewhat effective too. Ganon's jab is quick and has decent range, but it only has one hit, and doesn't combo into much that isn't avoidable or easy to shield. Yo-yo also helps against most of Ganon's attacks on the ground because of it's charging hitbox, just don't become predictable because UpSmash and DSmash are easy for Ganon to punish. It's possibly even IMO.

Off stage, watch out for Ganon's Uair and Side-B. Uair has large range and can stage spike, and Side-B=suicide. Ganon's recovery is very easy Pillar spike, PK Flash (if he's covering from a afar), Yo-yo Spike, Ledge Whip, and just plain Dair. If Ness is using PK Thunder too close to stage (which is never a smart idea unless you lost your 2nd jump.) Then he will easily be KOed by a Dair at higher percents, sometimes a side-B if the Ganon is willing to be risky. Recovering near the ledge is hard against Ganon, because you can easily be spiked. Horizontal recovery is easy however. Ness' wins off-stage.

In the end, it's around 60-40 to 65-35 IMO.

 

[2fAke]

I'm surprised it hasn't been mentioned yet that Ness' PK thunder can be Did to loop around and catch Ganon straight out of an air dodge. Of course, this becomes less an issue the further the gap, but it has mind gamed me in the past.

I refrain from whiz kick too much because a ness who dash attacks could dash to shield then grab Ganon after the initial shielding.

Ness' F smash has enough range to trump a choke when he expects it, which reminds me of the agrivation to Mario's cape. Even if the choke lands you have no jab follow up, the Dtilt is rarely accurate when Ness techs, and the Ftilt rarely connects if he techs. Ultimately, that game becomes tech chase for me.

PK fire... PK fire... PK fire... That is a minor annoyance, but an annoyance none the less. DIing over the flame is fair enough, but a good Ness might be in your face with a Fair. DI back and risk another PK fire, or predict it and powershield. DIing through it sets you up for another, this isn't like bowser's or Charizard's flame. Its nice for ness when a Ganon nub is bull headed, though.

As a Ganon main, I respect Ness, but it isn't like the Zomg Falco, Metanut, Snake, or 3D.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Ganon can F-tilt Ness if he reads a F-air approach. And that's Ness's best approach LOL! It outranges the F-air, so it will trade hits at minimum. And 13% > 2%. Ness loses here.

The two most annoying things Ness has in this matchup are PK Fire and PK Thunder, because Ganon just sucks at moving around projectiles.

In terms of close quarters, Ganon has the advantage to an extent. Greater range and power are an issue for Ness to deal with. Ganon's aerials are more solid than Ness's too.

This matchup is pretty close overall. I dunno in who's favor though, or whether it's even. Probably Ness's favor, but seriously, it's a close matchup.

 

[xoxokev]

Thunderstorm the **** out of us. It's your only hope

lol jk

Ganon is very heavy, very slow, very big, and very powerful. Those are all the characteristics of a true badass. Ganon's SH dair can kill Ness pretty early. I want to say somewhere at around ~115-125%. Also Ganon's dash attack is a true killer. I would say the greatest advantage that Ness has on Ganon is his aerial mobility. In case you Ganon mains don't already know this, Ness likes the air. When playing a Ness, he will usually approach with an aerial. Ness' grab game is also very good, and perfect for spacing. The best way to approach Ness would be to use Wizards Foot (which, as mentioned earlier, can avoid PK Fire) and the Murder Choke (which, also mentioned earlier, can combo to dtilt). Ganon's dair is deadly off-stage. It's the strongest spike in the game. However, Ness has the 2nd strongest spike with his own dair. If I were either player in this match up I would be very afraid if I were sent off-stage. Ness also has his projectiles: PK Fire, PK Thunder, and PK Flash. In this match up, the most useful would probably be PK Thunder, and since Ganon doesn't have any reflector moves, expect to be juggled with this.

Thats all for now, I think the match up is around 45-55 with the advantage for Ness

 

[A2ZOMG]

Nah, Ness's greatest advantage on Ganon is forcing him to approach.

If you try to approach with a SH Aerial, I'll go THIS IS SPARTA on you. Sounds like madness? It will blast right through your F-air. =P

 

[studly]

i actually get alot of trouble form ness' SH F-Air

its quick enough to punish me and high enough in priority to annoy the crap out of me

 

[Arcade]

I always crouch under Wizard Foot and then bair/grab. Fun stuff.

I don't have much experience fighting Ganny though.

 

[ColinJF]

Ganon's poor aerial mobility means he gets completely wrecked by pk thunder. Ness has a plenthora of ways to interfere with Ganon's recovery. Ganon's approach options are all telegraphed and Ness has no reason to approach because of pk thunder. A grab gets Ganon far away because of forward and up throw, and forces Ganon to contend with pk thunder even more.

I'd say 65-35 Ness wins, but I could see it being as close as 60-40. It's definitely not that close to even.

 

[Gaussis]

Nah, Ness's greatest advantage on Ganon is forcing him to approach.

If you try to approach with a SH Aerial, I'll go THIS IS SPARTA on you. Sounds like madness? It will blast right through your F-air. =P

It won't get his dair or bair, which is even a better approach against Ganon.


This matchup is strange to Ness. It makes him play aerially more and stay less time on the ground, due to Ganon's huge range on the ground. Ness also has to use aerials that will keep Ganon in his shield due to that range. Ganon, on the other hand, can't play aerially because it will most likely lead to PKT and other juggling stuff for Ness. One character is hindered by a natural ground disadvantage, while the other is restricted from aerial movement.

 

[ColinJF]

Ness can definitely approach Ganon just fine. But why would you bother when you have pk thunder?

Ganon's biggest advantage is that he can deal a lot of damage at once if you let him hit you, and approaching him just increases the chance of him doing that.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Just saying, if you stay in the air too long, that's asking you to be SH U-air juggled. You would be surprised how effective it is against aerial opponents.

 

[TP]

when Ganon is approaching with choke,

Ness' F smash has enough range to trump a choke when he expects it,

The best way to approach Ness would be to [...] Murder Choke

No. No. No.

Murder Choke is not an approach. It is for punishing, which it does very well. It guarantees a Dtilt, though most Ganons won't settle for just that. Personally, I try to follow my chokes with a Fair or Dair, or just another choke. At low % I would just Dtilt to keep you close and try an Uair. Every Ganon main has their own style for following a choke. Speaking of Uair, RAR Uair is an approach. How does Ness handle it?

This is a pretty solid discussion going on here, but we need another good Ganon or two (I am NOT a good Ganon) to post for me to be confident about the numbers.

 

[xoxokev]

Just wondering... why wouldn't a Ganon use Murder Choke to approach? Either way, what other approaches does Ganon have? A RAR'ed uair from Ganon is just asking for a fair from Ness

 

[2fAke]

I agree, murder choke to punish. It's a worse approach than Whizkick, which is easily abused unless the foe doesn't expect it. I was simply saying that the choke isn't a sound strategy, because a good Ness is going to homerun you. Ness has good wake up from an aerial whiff, so unless you are right there, that bat can still give Ganon a headache. Ness is floaty enough he can purposefully initiate a Dair close to the ground and back away before landing, after having landed next to Ganon a couple times, a strategic way to feign vulnerability and draw Ganon in to a painful and sudden demise. I learned it the hard way against a ten year old who grew up with older brothers who have adored the franchise as it went along.

I save chokes for characters less agile, have lag when missing an aerial, or the occaision someone foolishly rolls past me. There is also the mind game of mixing murder choke in with dash attacks for people who've been introduced to Ganon's shoulder a couple times. They go to shield then get choked and <Insert follow up>ed.

TS OoS against a Ness fair approach. It worked for me and won a few matches, even stopped the kid from approaching like that all together.

A ganon ready to leap and Uair Ness also needs to be mindful that if Ness is facing him and descending, he can Fb and rain fire on you. Taking it from the air makes you have to back out, because going up is begging for a PKthunder or an Uair or a Fair. If you go for the air dodge he can slam Ganon with any of his aerial arsenal once the dodge is completed. Uairing a Lucas in the same position is safer IMO, if only for the fact that the PKfire goes straight rather than diagonal.

 

[xoxokev]

Ness is floaty enough he can purposefully initiate a Dair close to the ground and back away before landing, after having landed next to Ganon a couple times, a strategic way to feign vulnerability and draw Ganon in to a painful and sudden demise. I learned it the hard way against a ten year old who grew up with older brothers who have adored the franchise as it went along.

I lol'ed @ that. So then... you still didn't answer my question: What other ways are there for Ganon to approach? Dash attack? "Power walking" (walking and power shielding) and ftilt seems like the best option

Also, Thunderstorm out of shield sounds like it hurts

I still think advantage goes to Ness...

 

[:034:]

We pretty much don't approach at all. We just walk there until you're so intimidated that you start attacking in close range, in which case we'll hammer you... Otherwise, we'll just stay out of your range and dtilt. Or lure you in using uair/bair/dair/usmash and then punish you.

 

[Dr. Hyde]

funny thing about Ness and Murder Choke.
On Battlefield when Ness get's choked under the platform, it happens sometimes, he lands on the platform. This can lead to Up smash Uair, or another Murder Choke which would gie the Ness the Option, which may surprise you that many take to roll away from the de and get choked again and land on the plat form, upon which I like to do a 4th murder choke.

Just saying if I murder choke you on the platform from the air then roll toward the edge or attack off the ground, otherwise enjoy being murdered.

That's just a specific that I know about the match otherwise I hate PK fire and Flash.
Some questions that seem unclear.
How's best way to DI out of the PK fire?
Ganon's F tilt > Ness' fair?
Does Ganon have a release grab game on Ness?
Anyone try Ganon's Fair vs. Any of Ness' moves? I'd think it would have enough priority to just break through everything short of the bat

 

[Gaussis]

Some questions that seem unclear.
How's best way to DI out of the PK fire?
Ganon's F tilt > Ness' fair?
Does Ganon have a release grab game on Ness?
Anyone try Ganon's Fair vs. Any of Ness' moves? I'd think it would have enough priority to just break through everything short of the bat

In order:
-DI the first hit up and away. If that fails, down to shield on the ground works, but expect a grab.
-Only if you anticipate the fair. Even so, it doesn't stop Ness's other aerials too well.
-On ground release, jab or dtilt may work, but I'm not sure which one is it. None for air release.
-Ganon's fair is like his ftilt. If the hitbox comes out, it will trade hits with whatever it hits. If it hits of course.

 

[Xebenkeck]

That's just a specific that I know about the match otherwise I hate PK fire and Flash.
Some questions that seem unclear.
How's best way to DI out of the PK fire?
Ganon's F tilt > Ness' fair?
Does Ganon have a release grab game on Ness?
Anyone try Ganon's Fair vs. Any of Ness' moves? I'd think it would have enough priority to just break through everything short of the bat

1) On the ground: Either smash DI when it hits you or mash the jump button while caught in it.
In the air, its almost inescapeable when your ganon.

2) Ness Fair >King of Evil's Ftilt

3)Just a jab i believe

4)Depends on who activates first,ness gets more priority as his moves are out longer, such as his foot in dair, his legs in bair, and arms in nair, however i believe if ganon is right in the middle of his punch he will out prioritize ness' aerials if only for a slight moment, so spacing is key. Otherwise ness' moves are alot faster and also have tons of priority so in most situations ness' aerials will come out faster and beat ganons, but if ganons hitbox is in full the moves willl hit each other simaltaneously. And on the ground ness ftilt clinks with smashs, so i'd guess it would stop a fair too, I might be wrong though.


Also my own thoughts. I play as both quite a bit and i can say each have tricks to deal with each other, however i'd say it would be a 60-40 advantage to ness simply because he is really quick comparitivly, he is middle weight so will survive longer than others might against ganon, and ness has ridiculous edgeguarding ability against him due to it only taking 1 fthrow to get him of the stage.

But in defense to Ganon, ganon is one of the best edge guarders in the game and bcuz of ness' subpar recovery, ganon can get easy gimp kills via uair and bair. Ness doesn't have very many GOOD approaches, so he is rather limited so the ganon, who more than likely is already playing defensive, only has to reconize his couple approaches. And ness projectiles aren't the best for spamming so ganon really doesn't have to worry about that.

 

[M@v]

i would call this 70-30 Fox's favor. Ganon gets horribly gimped by fox's shine offstage. Hes heavy, so its hard for ganon to get out of fox's combos, in particular his uptilt. Keep in mind that fox is the 7th lightest character, so it does not take much, especially from ganon, to send him flying. Hitting him will be a problem though; fox is one of the fastest and most agile characters in the game. Fox has ganon beat in most areas. But like I said, your saving grace here is your massive power, his ultra light weight.

 

[Chileno4Live]

Pqh-M2V-pgH said it all, Fox pretty much owns Ganondorfs in msot aspects. Ganondorf is 1 of the slowest character in the game and fox is like the 1 of the fastest in the game. Fox makes Ganon approach cause of the lasers, which is already awesome for Fox users since Fox lacks a good approach. Drill kick to Utilt kinda racks up damage especially on heavy characters like ganon. Spot dodge might help ganons. thats the only advice i can give you since i'm not a real pro or something XD

 

[Clai]

Spoiler

Fox is automatically 100-0 in Fox's favor because we all know that all he's going to do is fire lasers at us and then stage camp the crap out of us for 8 minutes. Ganondorf's too slow to deal with that type of camping.

This is a matchup between a character that sucks at approaching and a character with a laser that sucks at approaching. Fox is going to try to overwhelm us with damage strings and d-air combos, but all we have to do is think of this matchup like the Captain Falcon matchup or even the Pikachu matchup- just ignore the flashing speed and focus on your spacing and this matchup is not difficult by any means. I don't know how Fox's Phantasm does against Ganon's Thunderfoot, but I'm certain that Fox will try a few phantasms to catch Ganon off-guard and make him vulnerable for further hits. I also don't know how Fox's shine does against the Wizard Kick, but because of this reflector, approaching with dash attacks and Flame Chokes (then again, this is always a stupid idea) is worthless.

The key to this matchup is keeping close to the ground when in a neutral state, punishing Fox's approaches and juggling him in the air (since his weight is sweet for juggling), and finishing him off early. Stutter-step f-smashes are great for surprise carnage, but they might not be worth the risk as missing one will lead you to combo city. All of Ganon's aerials are amazing in this matchup, as they outrange anything Fox has to offer and moves like the Thunderstomp and f-air will demolish Fox at early percentages. Speaking of Thunderstomp, Fox's fall speed makes this move utterly devastating for setting up comboes and finishing him off at the later percentages. Ganon's down-tilt outranges Fox, so always bait short-hopped aerials with this move. Finally, as always, Flame Choke tech chases will assure that Fox won't be doing anything too risky, but then again, Fox has no other alternatives but to use his high-risk, high-reward approaches. There isn't anything that Fox can do safely which can give him the edge in this matchup.

Final Verdict: 60-40 in favor of the Old Man.

 

[shinato91]

shine stalling compensate the falling speed

 

[Fenrir VII]

Spoiler

Fox is automatically 100-0 in Fox's favor because we all know that all he's going to do is fire lasers at us and then stage camp the crap out of us for 8 minutes. Ganondorf's too slow to deal with that type of camping.

This is a matchup between a character that sucks at approaching and a character with a laser that sucks at approaching. Fox is going to try to overwhelm us with damage strings and d-air combos, but all we have to do is think of this matchup like the Captain Falcon matchup or even the Pikachu matchup- just ignore the flashing speed and focus on your spacing and this matchup is not difficult by any means. I don't know how Fox's Phantasm does against Ganon's Thunderfoot, but I'm certain that Fox will try a few phantasms to catch Ganon off-guard and make him vulnerable for further hits. I also don't know how Fox's shine does against the Wizard Kick, but because of this reflector, approaching with dash attacks and Flame Chokes (then again, this is always a stupid idea) is worthless.

Ok hold up a sec. I don't necessarily believe the "fox suxks at approaching" mindset, but I'll leave that for now. A good Fox will never... ever use Illusion as an attack. It leads to nothing, has a bit of cooldown, and almost 0 priority. there is no reason for it..

The key to this matchup is keeping close to the ground when in a neutral state, punishing Fox's approaches and juggling him in the air (since his weight is sweet for juggling), and finishing him off early. Stutter-step f-smashes are great for surprise carnage, but they might not be worth the risk as missing one will lead you to combo city. All of Ganon's aerials are amazing in this matchup, as they outrange anything Fox has to offer and moves like the Thunderstomp and f-air will demolish Fox at early percentages. Speaking of Thunderstomp, Fox's fall speed makes this move utterly devastating for setting up comboes and finishing him off at the later percentages. Ganon's down-tilt outranges Fox, so always bait short-hopped aerials with this move. Finally, as always, Flame Choke tech chases will assure that Fox won't be doing anything too risky, but then again, Fox has no other alternatives but to use his high-risk, high-reward approaches. There isn't anything that Fox can do safely which can give him the edge in this matchup.

While I will concede that Ganon's aerials outrange Fox in the air, I certainly wouldn't say he wins in the air. And also, an aerial on Fox's shield will lead to you getting usmashed a LOT of the time. Fox in the air, I believe, beats Ganon in the air simply due to speed and mobility. Yes, you outrange us... but at the same time... if we avoid or predict something you throw, most of the time, we can punish it. Hard. The thing that really affects this match is that Fox is one of the best punishing characters in the game through very good combos and devastating kill moves. To put a laggy, fairly predictable character up against that just isn't going to be in his favor. There is a very good chance that Fox will be able to either guess out...or just plain react to what you do and punish you very hard for it. He has the ability to put large amounts of damage on you (50-60%) with proper comboing and followups... and then kill you around 100.

Fox is also very good at applying pressure, and varying his approaches in a proper mixup. FH aerials and grabs beat a lot of Ganon's options here... We are able to shield approach past anything you have, save the choke, which should be reacted to anyway... and get inside, and at that point, Ganon has huge problems stopping Fox from just pressuring him to death.

I'm not sure why Fox would really be approaching here... but Fox can safely approach you with several options... don't limit your consensus of his approach to SH Dair. SH Fair autocancels, and we can use it to drift out of your range, even if you shield the attack. Fh aerials are coming into more use as a way to get behind your shield... and those, combined with shine stall, leads to you having to react to it. Fox's pivot grab is the fastest in the game... his pwg slides much farther than anything you have to punish it... so even if you dodge a grab, you can't punis it.

I just feel taht this match is sorely in Fox's favor.

Final Verdict: 70-30 at least for the vulpine.

k then .

 

[Conviction]

i would call this 70-30 Fox's favor. Ganon gets horribly gimped by fox's shine offstage. Hes heavy, so its hard for ganon to get out of fox's combos, in particular his uptilt. Keep in mind that fox is the 7th lightest character, so it does not take much, especially from ganon, to send him flying. Hitting him will be a problem though; fox is one of the fastest and most agile characters in the game. Fox has ganon beat in most areas. But like I said, your saving grace here is your massive power, his ultra light weight.

He spoke mostly what I would have say Ganon is slow compared to Fox. Fox can also out camp ganon. Ganon Eat SH Fairs and Dairs when caught of leading into combos like the qoute above says. Ganon Godly powerful so that equals early kills on us. I agree on 70-30 Fox's favor.

On a side note: Lol @ shiek match-up that's worst than our pika match-up

 

[Zhamy]

This is a matchup between a character that sucks at approaching and a character with a laser that sucks at approaching.

In situations against many of the higher tier characters, Fox does have a difficult time approaching. But it's Ganondorf. He's simply too slow to deal with Fox SHing, FHing, dash shielding, PWGing, Nairing and Bairing and Dairing all over the place.

Fox is going to try to overwhelm us with damage strings and d-air combos, but all we have to do is think of this matchup like the Captain Falcon matchup or even the Pikachu matchup- just ignore the flashing speed and focus on your spacing and this matchup is not difficult by any means.

I'm wondering how you propose to ignore the speed? I don't see how you plan to space without considering the relative speeds and where you can position yourself.

I don't know how Fox's Phantasm does against Ganon's Thunderfoot, but I'm certain that Fox will try a few phantasms to catch Ganon off-guard and make him vulnerable for further hits.

Would you ever use Wizard's Foot as a "surprise" move?

I also don't know how Fox's shine does against the Wizard Kick, but because of this reflector, approaching with dash attacks and Flame Chokes (then again, this is always a stupid idea) is worthless.

You have the wrong idea here - Fox is not Wolf, and it would be so much easier to SH Dair into anything silly like that.

The key to this matchup is keeping close to the ground when in a neutral state, punishing Fox's approaches and juggling him in the air (since his weight is sweet for juggling), and finishing him off early.

Sounds reasonable, although I think you'll find Fox'a approaching aren't nearly as punishable as you expect. Not to mention, why the hell is Fox approaching? He has lasers.

Stutter-step f-smashes are great for surprise carnage, but they might not be worth the risk as missing one will lead you to combo city.

I guess you could do that, but it just really sounds like a stupid idea. A slow, punishable move that sure, maybe gets a bit of range, but you already have longer range moves that can "punish," so why would Fox fall for that?

All of Ganon's aerials are amazing in this matchup, as they outrange anything Fox has to offer and moves like the Thunderstomp and f-air will demolish Fox at early percentages.

Yes, Ganon does outrange Fox in the air. No, that doesn't mean he has superiority there. See Fenrir's post - it's not hard to poke in an aerial here or there.

Speaking of Thunderstomp, Fox's fall speed makes this move utterly devastating for setting up comboes and finishing him off at the later percentages. Ganon's down-tilt outranges Fox, so always bait short-hopped aerials with this move.

Wait, how you plan to use Dtilt to bait aerials...?

Finally, as always, Flame Choke tech chases will assure that Fox won't be doing anything too risky, but then again, Fox has no other alternatives but to use his high-risk, high-reward approaches. There isn't anything that Fox can do safely which can give him the edge in this matchup.

What about "sit back, camp lasers, wait for Ganon to come, punish him to hell and back?" A lot of your post is fundamentally wrong because it presumes that Fox will be approaching. You're neglecting something very obvious.

Fox has Lasers.

Fox can respond to nearly everything Ganon does with a quick jab, aerial, or tilt and follow up with combos and DI chase.

M@v already posted a bunch of good points; look at those.

70:30 Fox.

 

[Conviction]

^
He put the hurting of Fox's MUSD on you, lol.
But yea you seem to think fox's is average speed not the 3rd fastest character in the game, and believe Fox has no lasers (why would falco and Wolf lasers and he wouldn't?)

 

[adumbrodeus]

Spoiler

Fox is automatically 100-0 in Fox's favor because we all know that all he's going to do is fire lasers at us and then stage camp the crap out of us for 8 minutes. Ganondorf's too slow to deal with that type of camping.

Get in on him, even short-hopped lasers are punishable on reaction if you're close enough. He can't run forever in any stage except the banned ones and luigi's manshion (which we can destroy).

This is a matchup between a character that sucks at approaching and a character with a laser that sucks at approaching. Fox is going to try to overwhelm us with damage strings and d-air combos, but all we have to do is think of this matchup like the Captain Falcon matchup or even the Pikachu matchup- just ignore the flashing speed and focus on your spacing and this matchup is not difficult by any means. I don't know how Fox's Phantasm does against Ganon's Thunderfoot, but I'm certain that Fox will try a few phantasms to catch Ganon off-guard and make him vulnerable for further hits. I also don't know how Fox's shine does against the Wizard Kick, but because of this reflector, approaching with dash attacks and Flame Chokes (then again, this is always a stupid idea) is worthless.

The key to this matchup is keeping close to the ground when in a neutral state, punishing Fox's approaches and juggling him in the air (since his weight is sweet for juggling), and finishing him off early. Stutter-step f-smashes are great for surprise carnage, but they might not be worth the risk as missing one will lead you to combo city. All of Ganon's aerials are amazing in this matchup, as they outrange anything Fox has to offer and moves like the Thunderstomp and f-air will demolish Fox at early percentages. Speaking of Thunderstomp, Fox's fall speed makes this move utterly devastating for setting up comboes and finishing him off at the later percentages. Ganon's down-tilt outranges Fox, so always bait short-hopped aerials with this move. Finally, as always, Flame Choke tech chases will assure that Fox won't be doing anything too risky, but then again, Fox has no other alternatives but to use his high-risk, high-reward approaches. There isn't anything that Fox can do safely which can give him the edge in this matchup.

Final Verdict: 60-40 in favor of the Old Man.

Dude, no.

You're missing one essential problem.

I'm almost positive fox can punish dtilt on reaction, he doesn't have the starting lag that Falcon does, and he's faster in general.


Even if dtilt is safe on block, Fox has a safe on block approach, dair, I've confirmed that. I'm pretty sure auto-canceled fair is the same in that regard.


We've got nothing to force him into a punishable situation, and when fox is that close he's got far more options to lay the hurt on Ganondorf, whereas at that range, Ganondorf is almost universally punishable, and fox quite simply ISN'T. Marth for example, range reliably keep fox out.


Granted, fox is easy to combo and edgeguard, but putting him into that situation is difficult because he's got a considerable advantage in the lead-up.


Realistically, Ganondorf's best option is to RAR an auto-canceled uair, dtilt just doesn't cut it in this match-up.


The aerial range advantage doesn't mean too much except as follow-ups/edguarding because Fox will keep this match close to the ground, that's where his advantage is.


65-35, Fox's advantage.


And since when was dtilt safe on block against Pikachu?

I'm not sure why Fox would really be approaching here... but Fox can safely approach you with several options... don't limit your consensus of his approach to SH Dair. SH Fair autocancels, and we can use it to drift out of your range, even if you shield the attack. Fh aerials are coming into more use as a way to get behind your shield... and those, combined with shine stall, leads to you having to react to it. Fox's pivot grab is the fastest in the game... his pwg slides much farther than anything you have to punish it... so even if you dodge a grab, you can't punis it.

He's assuming dtilt is safe on block in this match-up, which I don't think is true, I need to test that though. Even so, it's not without precedent.

Also, keep in mind that shielding an approach doesn't mean much if you can't punish from a shield. Reverse Uair is not gonna be punishable.

I'm wondering how you propose to ignore the speed? I don't see how you plan to space without considering the relative speeds and where you can position yourself.

It makes spacing more difficult, but at the top of the metagame, everyone can react fast enough that you can control spacing. The speed makes punishing against a larger array of moves possible, and leads to smaller mistakes eliminating spacing advantage, but spacing tools are just as much in effect with fast characters as slow characters.

Sounds reasonable, although I think you'll find Fox'a approaching aren't nearly as punishable as you expect. Not to mention, why the hell is Fox approaching? He has lasers.

Because Ganondorf has a poke. Granted, I doubt it's safe on block and that needs to be tested BUT his construction assumes that it is, which is why he has fox approaching.

If it's true, it's correct, Ganondorf would just have to approach into poke range, and from there Fox is forced to approach, that is after all, what a poke does.

Yes, Ganon does outrange Fox in the air. No, that doesn't mean he has superiority there. See Fenrir's post - it's not hard to poke in an aerial here or there.

Actually, range and priority are the prime factors in dedicated aerial combat. The biggest question is, when would fox let that happen?

The answer: Follow-ups only.

Wait, how you plan to use Dtilt to bait aerials...?

Because dtilt generally functions as Ganondorf's poke move, while not particularly fast, it's got IASA frames and good shield stun. Combined with it's long range, it's not really punishable when properly spaced. For that reason it's Ganondorf's major spacing tool, and forces approaches for several characters.

So the idea WAS to force fox to approach with an aerial or something else punishable, unfortunately Fox can respond with something unpunishable, so it's a moot point.

What about "sit back, camp lasers, wait for Ganon to come, punish him to hell and back?" A lot of your post is fundamentally wrong because it presumes that Fox will be approaching. You're neglecting something very obvious.

Fox has Lasers.

And in dtilt range, lasers become punishable, short-hop double or not. Lack of hitstun assures that.

His construction presumed an unpunishable dtilt where Ganondorf approaches to dtilt range, and then pressures with it to force an approach and punishes from there. Basically, Ganondorf is playing Marth.

In Ganondorf's (few) advantageous match-ups, he can do this, and the opponent's approaches are punishable.


So he's not just pulling this out of his ***, it's got precedent with Ganondorf's match-ups.

HOWEVER, one has to remember that not all pokes work with all characters, and since Ganondorf only has one poke, it's very vulnerable to not working.


Yeah, so 65-35 Fox sounds about right.

 

[Zhamy]

His construction presumed an unpunishable dtilt where Ganondorf approaches to dtilt range, and then pressures with it to force an approach and punishes from there. Basically, Ganondorf is playing Marth.

Thanks for that; it cleared up a lot of things. But from what I've seen (after a tad of testing) is that it's not safe on block and whatnot.

It just seems like Dtilt is Fox's signal to SH Bair Ganon in the face.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Thanks for that; it cleared up a lot of things. But from what I've seen (after a tad of testing) is that it's not safe on block and whatnot.

It just seems like Dtilt is Fox's signal to SH Bair Ganon in the face.

Figured it would, that's basically the optimal case for a Ganondorf match-up, he can safely dtilt and they can't attack on reaction and all their approaches are punishable, so they're basically forced to predict. As of right now we're sure that it gives him one advantageous match-up at least, Captain Falcon. Anything else is pretty much icing on the cake, or stops the match-up from being as bad as it could be, unless it's a truly odd case.


I'll confirm, but thanks for the info, that confirms my suspicions, Ganondorf is pretty much stuck with (in my estimation) 65-35 against him, edging more towards hard counter territory then 60-40, though not enough to call it 70-30.



Basically, every match-up has critical info, identify where frame data, priority, invincibility/super armor, the exact length of hitboxes, etc will make a difference, and then do the testing, cause match-ups are data-driven things. I'm glad the fox boards understand this.

 

[-Mars-]

70-30 Fox easily.

Fox does a lot of things to Ganon that in a lot of ways is similar to Sheik. Tilt locks Ganon to around 50%, combos easily even after the tilt lock, forces the approach, easily wins the offstage game...............the only difference is that while Fox doesn't have the fantastic projectile that Sheik does............he has a couple lethal kill moves(not even counting gimping ability).

Fox has a couple approaches that are safe on block in this matchup. Nair, Fair, Dair behind a shield, running shield....he just has too many options. He can OoS usmash anything Ganon approaches with and his usmash flat out beats a thunderstomp. Foxs' utilt also shut downs Ganons whole game, outspeeds anything Ganon does and will clank wih a couple moves. His OoS options are vastly superior to Ganons, dtilt is in no way safe on block.

If Ganon didn't kill so **** early and edgeguard as well as he does....this would be a hard-counter-type matchup.

 

[mariofanpm12]

Fox has a huge advantage in speed, and of course there's the lasers, but still most of these opinions are somewhat biased. I think it's a 35:65 in Fox's favor, but not 30:70.

Sigh... the Ganon match-ups are so depressing...

 

[A2ZOMG]

Not 7/3. 6/4 in Fox's favor.

The main advantage Fox has is forcing Ganondorf to approach. Fox on the other hand is also terrible at approaching, and he dies a bit earlier than Ganon. Fox is so bad at approaching that you can usually shieldgrab him if he attempts to rush in with something like a D-air or whatever.

Ganondorf can edgeguard Fox pretty darn well due to having a number of excellent attacks that beat out the SideB. Up-smash, F-smash, U-air, and D-air are good choices for punishing Fox's SideB if you read it. If he has to firefox, D-air him.

This matchup is NOT that bad for Ganondorf. All in all, Ganon's moveset is actually superior to Fox's minus the fact that Ganon has to approach. In close quarters, Ganon has the advantage especially if he finds Fox attacking his shield.

 

[Fenrir VII]

Not 7/3. 6/4 in Fox's favor.

The main advantage Fox has is forcing Ganondorf to approach. Fox on the other hand is also terrible at approaching, and he dies a bit earlier than Ganon. Fox is so bad at approaching that you can usually shieldgrab him if he attempts to rush in with something like a D-air or whatever.

Fox is only terrible at approaching characters with speed and a greater range than he does... say Marth... He has no problems approaching much of the cast. SH Dair is not used as an approach by good Foxes anymore.. SH Fair is easily better than that, and is unpunishable. Fox can approach Ganon.

Ganondorf can edgeguard Fox pretty darn well due to having a number of excellent attacks that beat out the SideB. Up-smash, F-smash, U-air, and D-air are good choices for punishing Fox's SideB if you read it. If he has to firefox, D-air him.

Wow, you're really assuming the Fox player to suck here.. with any sort of mixup here, you simply don't have the speed to cover every option, such as going high, going for the ledge, shortenings, going into the stage, etc... Completely disregarding the idea of high Firefoxes, which really aren't that bad of an idea against you. That "if you read it" phrase is very important here... if you don't, you get nothing... and Ganon is only able to cover one option, leaving a couple others for the Fox player... Not too hard to get back to the stage.

This matchup is NOT that bad for Ganondorf. All in all, Ganon's moveset is actually superior to Fox's minus the fact that Ganon has to approach. In close quarters, Ganon has the advantage especially if he finds Fox attacking his shield.

See, I disagree again. Fox can easily overwhelm Ganon's moveset with frame traps and smarter play... We're not going to be in front of you attacking your shield every time. Please take that mindset away, because in a higher level situation, as we should be discussing, Fox will not do this. We can outspace your grab range with several attacks, we have an unpunishable approach, a very good grab game (not great throws, really, but they put you in disadvantageous situations). Fox is one of the best punishers and killers in the game. I simply don't believe Ganon outclasses that.

And again, that's if Fox is approaching, which he doesn't have to. As was mentioned, Fox's OoS options are incredible, and can simply override almost every approach option you have.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

Fox is only terrible at approaching characters with speed and a greater range than he does... say Marth... He has no problems approaching much of the cast. SH Dair is not used as an approach by good Foxes anymore.. SH Fair is easily better than that, and is unpunishable. Fox can approach Ganon.



Wow, you're really assuming the Fox player to suck here.. with any sort of mixup here, you simply don't have the speed to cover every option, such as going high, going for the ledge, shortenings, going into the stage, etc... Completely disregarding the idea of high Firefoxes, which really aren't that bad of an idea against you. That "if you read it" phrase is very important here... if you don't, you get nothing... and Ganon is only able to cover one option, leaving a couple others for the Fox player... Not too hard to get back to the stage.



See, I disagree again. Fox can easily overwhelm Ganon's moveset with frame traps and smarter play... We're not going to be in front of you attacking your shield every time. Please take that mindset away, because in a higher level situation, as we should be discussing, Fox will not do this. We can outspace your grab range with several attacks, we have an unpunishable approach, a very good grab game (not great throws, really, but they put you in disadvantageous situations). Fox is one of the best punishers and killers in the game. I simply don't believe Ganon outclasses that.

And again, that's if Fox is approaching, which he doesn't have to. As was mentioned, Fox's OoS options are incredible, and can simply override almost every approach option you have.

You're making it sound like Ganon is helpless when fighting against the hairy dude. This match-up is no higher then 65:35.

 

[Fenrir VII]

You're making it sound like Ganon is helpless when fighting against the hairy dude. This match-up is no higher then 65:35.

In a matchup discussion, both sides should present what their character can do, and then, the other has a rebuttal of sorts.. that's all I'm doing

Personally, I believe this match is bad...really bad for G-man. 70-30+ is about right.

Fox's lasers and speed alone make this match almost completely unwinnable for you...but I'm talking even without that.

You have to approach us, if we want you to.
Fox has high priority, powerful moves against you, Usmash being able to be used OoS very quickly to punish. Utilt alone wrecks almost every approach you have.
Fox gimps you like no tomorrow.
Fox has better aerial mobility by FAR...basically negating your better range.
Fox has a (at least mostly) unpunishable approach on you...
Fox is one of the fastest...and quickest characters in the game, so he can get inside your range as you try to zone him.
His recovery is very adaptable to avoid edgeguardnig from you. One of the better recoveries in form of how many different options he has.
He combos you to obscene percentages from one hit
And then kills you quickly, even without the probable gimp
Dsmash combos out of Dair and puts you in a VERY bad position for your recovery.

I'm not just giving a number, I'm simply listing what Fox has in this match. I am not listing what Ganon has, because that is your job here. I am presenting the Fox's side of the case, and why I believe it to be a VERY bad match for Ganon.