"The Triforce of Knowledge" Ganon's Match-Up Guide: Character Review, Kirby.

[Conviction]

^
MUSD3: GMUSD? lol

Yea you haven't seen Fox's metagame in 6 months right? That how you guys sound. If you see a Fox still Sh Dair as an approach tell them to go to the Fox Boards so we can Usamsh them back to your boards. Dair is a punishing move. Like what Fenrir said Fair and Nair are WAY better as an approach because with those we could fade back and away from you shield grab.
2) Fox can Slide with his shield from a dash then shield grab ( Fenrir already said Fox has a good grab game)
3) Shine spike is easy to land on Ganon
4) If we did use SH dair as an approach why would we want land in front of you?
5) We have speed that beats your range.

6) FLAMEDASH!!!!

 

[Ray_Kalm]

^
MUSD3: GMUSD? lol

Yea you haven't seen Fox's metagame in 6 months right? That how you guys sound. If you see a Fox still Sh Dair as an approach tell them to go to the Fox Boards so we can Usamsh them back to your boards. Dair is a punishing move. Like what Fenrir said Fair and Nair are WAY better as an approach because with those we could fade back and away from you shield grab.
2) Fox can Slide with his shield from a dash then shield grab ( Fenrir already said Fox has a good grab game)
3) Shine spike is easy to land on Ganon
4) If we did use SH dair as an approach why would we want land in front of you?
5) We have speed that beats your range.

6) FLAMEDASH!!!!

1.) Gerudo > DTilt 21% Combo on Fox, more DTilts are possible.
2.) Ganondorf could KO Fox at "low" percentages. 60%, 75% max.
3.) We have a human body.

The first 2 facts are more then enough to bring this match-up up.

 

[Fenrir VII]

1.) Gerudo > DTilt 21% Combo on Fox, more DTilts are possible.
2.) Ganondorf could KO Fox at "low" percentages. 60%, 75% max.
3.) We have a human body.

The first 2 facts are more then enough to bring this match-up up.

1)Dair utilt repeatedly combo : 30% by itself... and leads to other better setups.
1.5) Utilt alone eats gerudo...as well as other things
2)Fox can KO Ganon through edgeguard easily after around 60, as Dsmash will start comboing from a Dair, or from usmash around 100...and if we predict anything you do, we can hit a Dair. I am assuming that the Fox player will know the matchup enough to not be like, whoa, autocanceled Dairs??! and thus will be able to predict...or even punish anything bad you do.
3) You got me...


I agree... Ganon's strength brings it up... but not to 65-35.. that's not even a hard counter yet.

The simple fact is that Fox should be hitting Ganon a LOT more than vice versa... and doesn't have much more trouble at all KOing Ganon than Ganon does KOing Fox... If Ganon didn't have the strength that he does, yeah, I could see this going to 90-10 for Fox.. 70-30+ is incorporating that.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

1)Dair utilt repeatedly combo : 30% by itself... and leads to other better setups.
1.5) Utilt alone eats gerudo...as well as other things
2)Fox can KO Ganon through edgeguard easily after around 60, as Dsmash will start comboing from a Dair, or from usmash around 100...and if we predict anything you do, we can hit a Dair. I am assuming that the Fox player will know the matchup enough to not be like, whoa, autocanceled Dairs??! and thus will be able to predict...or even punish anything bad you do.
3) You got me...


I agree... Ganon's strength brings it up... but not to 65-35.. that's not even a hard counter yet.

The simple fact is that Fox should be hitting Ganon a LOT more than vice versa... and doesn't have much more trouble at all KOing Ganon than Ganon does KOing Fox... If Ganon didn't have the strength that he does, yeah, I could see this going to 90-10 for Fox.. 70-30+ is incorporating that.

You'll have to understand this; No smart Ganondorf main approaches with gerudo. If you see one, feed him a UPsmash.

Fox's the fastest faller in the game. He has to eat Ness's PKfires, Sheik's FTilt, Pikachu's down throw up to 85%. Ganon's DTilt sends opponents upward, Fox is asking for repeative DTilts, after gerudo for a true combo (Yes, I'm mentioning DTilt a lot, as it's our best move against most of the cast, cause of it's range, damage, true combos, IASA frames). After that Ganon just has to play a bit of smart edge guarding, RAUR comes to mind.

 

[Fenrir VII]

You'll have to understand this; No smart Ganondorf main approaches with gerudo. If you see one, feed him a UPsmash.

Fox's the fastest faller in the game. He has to eat Ness's PKfires, Sheik's FTilt, Pikachu's down throw up to 85%. Ganon's DTilt sends opponents upward, Fox is asking for repeative DTilts, after gerudo for a true combo (Yes, I'm mentioning DTilt a lot, as it's our best move against most of the cast, cause of it's range, damage, true combos, IASA frames). After that Ganon just has to play a bit of smart edge guarding, RAUR comes to mind.

It just seems like Dtilt is Fox's signal to SH Bair Ganon in the face.

I'm pretty sure you can't just sit there and dtilt us, though. Don't get me wrong, I could be incorrect here.. but I don't believe that.

utilt clanks with your dtilt, too, and comes out faster...

I just can't see how you're going to play this. I can't see a good way for you to:

1. get inside Fox without being punished
2. stop Fox from being all over you
3. kill faster than we can.

RAUR is a good edgeguard, but its range is somewhat limited, and if you miss, we get back on the stage... so we have to mix it up to avoid that, and it's a free stage... this is where I'm lacking what you'll actually do here.

I honestly don't see how you are any better at putting damage on us or killing us, either through edgeguarding or onstage killing.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

No, we won't just sit there and try poking you with DTilts, we'll search for your mistakes in our defensive play and punish it with gerudo (which could avoid a few of your attacks during startup, at a certain range), then buffer 'true' DTilts, giving you 21% damage each time.

RUAR has low range? You have got to be kidding me. The range and power it has is incredible.

and, doesn't tipman have more priority then your FrwdB?

 

[Fenrir VII]

No, we won't just sit there and try poking you with DTilts, we'll search for your mistakes in our defensive play and punish it with gerudo (which could avoid a few of your attacks during startup, at a certain range), then buffer 'true' DTilts, giving you 21% damage each time.

RUAR has low range? You have got to be kidding me. The range and power it has is incredible.

and, doesn't tipman have more priority then your FrwdB?

Makes more sense than before, but still.. Fox has too many options around that, as I've been stating.

And I'm talking with Ganon's aerial mobility, and the speed of Fox make it incredible if you actually hit it.


And yes, everything has more priority that Side-B, as Side-B attacks BEHIND Fox. However... please understand that we are not going to just Side-B at you every time. Our rising Fair recovery and shine stalling, mixed with Illusion cancels and the actual situational usefulness of Firefox give Fox a VERY adaptable recovery.. as such, if you commit to something off the stage, and the Fox knows you are, as he probably will, it's not hard to just...avoid it.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

Tipman, which is one of our edge guard moves, has both the range and priority to overcome (or beat) all those alternate methods of recovery you just stated.

 

[Conviction]

Makes more sense than before, but still.. Fox has too many options around that, as I've been stating.

And I'm talking with Ganon's aerial mobility, and the speed of Fox make it incredible if you actually hit it.


And yes, everything has more priority that Side-B, as Side-B attacks BEHIND Fox. However... please understand that we are not going to just Side-B at you every time. Our rising Fair recovery and shine stalling, mixed with Illusion cancels and the actual situational usefulness of Firefox give Fox a VERY adaptable recovery.. as such, if you commit to something off the stage, and the Fox knows you are, as he probably will, it's not hard to just...avoid it.

Why do you beat me to things.

 

[Fenrir VII]

Tipman, which is one of our edge guard moves, has both the range and priority to overcome (or beat) all those alternate methods of recovery you just stated.

Haha, I knew Tipman. lol I know what it is.

And no... it simply doesn't. Fair outprioritizes it. Shine stalling has a good chance of making you comit too early, and whiffing. Illusion cancels throw off timing somewhat, but are less useful.. and Firefox, in certain situations, you smply don't have time to get out there with that spacing. Please don't think Fox is going to come onto the stage at eye-level every time...

but no, it doesn't single handedly beat his recovery. lol.

 

[Conviction]

Haha, I knew Tipman. lol I know what it is.

And no... it simply doesn't. Fair outprioritizes it. Shine stalling has a good chance of making you comit too early, and whiffing. Illusion cancels throw off timing somewhat, but are less useful.. and Firefox, in certain situations, you smply don't have time to get out there with that spacing. Please don't think Fox is going to come onto the stage at eye-level every time...

but no, it doesn't single handedly beat his recovery. lol.

Mind explaining what a Tipman is? (noob question)

 

[Ray_Kalm]

Haha, I knew Tipman. lol I know what it is.

And no... it simply doesn't. Fair outprioritizes it. Shine stalling has a good chance of making you comit too early, and whiffing. Illusion cancels throw off timing somewhat, but are less useful.. and Firefox, in certain situations, you smply don't have time to get out there with that spacing. Please don't think Fox is going to come onto the stage at eye-level every time...

but no, it doesn't single handedly beat his recovery. lol.

Ganon has more then enough time to tipman your flame recovery. Your rising FAir may beat it.

and, you're taking Ganon's slow aerial mobility to much in your favour. Ganon is one of the best edge guarders in the game, especially with his WFC. WFC could easily spoil Fox's recoveries.

 

[Fenrir VII]

Ganon has more then enough time to tipman your flame recovery. Your rising FAir may beat it.

and, you're taking Ganon's slow aerial mobility to much in your favour. Ganon is one of the best edge guarders in the game, especially with his WFC. WFC could easily spoil Fox's recoveries.

Outside the box man... think outside the Box... if any Fox Firefoxes at that standard 45 degree angle, they deserve to be edgeguarded. lol. I'm talking going high with it.. which is a different game altogether.

Ganon is one of the best edgeguarders? compared to what exactly?

Ganon =/= MK, Kirby, Sheik, DDD, etc etc etc. I understand he can edgeguard, but Fox also has one of the better adaptable recoveries in the game... and you seem to be taking one aspect of it, and disregarding others.

And yes, Fair beats it, it also GREATLY increases the vertical distance of our second jump, while covering us from attack. it should almost always give us a great enough vertical jump to make it onto the stage easily... not to even mention the B moves.

please explain WFC

 

[Conviction]

Ganon has more then enough time to tipman your flame recovery. Your rising FAir may beat it.

and, you're taking Ganon's slow aerial mobility to much in your favour. Ganon is one of the best edge guarders in the game, especially with his WFC. WFC could easily spoil Fox's recoveries.

If the case is our Fair can outprioritixe most of your moves that move you can't beat our Uair. Fox Uair> all Snake Airs in priority so i think that can be any of your arial approaches in most situations. So if we were to ledgehop a Uair then what? (I might be wrong but if utilt clanks with you dtilt...) Uair wins.

 

[A6M Zero]

70-30 in Fox's favour, easily.


The difficulties for Ganon are that he does not have any options to force Fox to do anything, and that Fox CAN force Ganon to do things.

Fox plays the game outside of Ganon's side-B range. SHDL's force Ganon to approach. Ganon can't limit himself to thunderstorming, so Fox waits for Ganon to use any move that can't be autocancelled. The second Ganon uses ANY unautocancelled move at ANY time within Fox's side-B range, Fox can hit Ganon and start a combination, the bulk of which will almost always hit for at least 60% because of Ganon's weight. Fox also has the ability to punish any way of Ganon returning back to the ground, which in practice tends to leads to astronomical damage on a SINGLE opening Ganon gives, up to 90%.

Ganon simply can not force Fox to make enough mistakes to keep up with how vulnerable he is to Fox's combinations.

The ONLY reason this match is as high as 70-30 for Ganon is that a Fox with less experience against Ganon will try to punish lagless moves and take far heavier damage than a more experienced opponent.

 

[adumbrodeus]

The ONLY reason this match is as high as 70-30 for Ganon is that a Fox with less experience against Ganon will try to punish lagless moves and take far heavier damage than a more experienced opponent.

Forget that portion. Top of the metagame dude, we don't care what less experienced foxes will do, we just care about his options.

 

[Conviction]

Forget that portion. Top of the metagame dude, we don't care what less experienced foxes will do, we just care about his options.

Where is the rest of his explaination that was really only one point that he could left out. His real explaination was the part you should listening to/countering.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Where is the rest of his explaination that was really only one point that he could left out. His real explaination was the part you should listening to/countering.

Really, that's the only issue that jumped out at me as something, I was assenting to it for the most part because the rest of it seemed like a good analysis, and just wanted him to skip the "behavior" in favor of options, because he did factor it into the match-up.

The fact that Ganondorf is one of my secondaries doesn't mean I don't try to be as neutral as possible, I'm more worried about correct methodology then anything else, because I HOPE that it will produce a correct result.



However, taking a second look, I noticed that something's off.

70-30 in Fox's favour, easily.


The difficulties for Ganon are that he does not have any options to force Fox to do anything, and that Fox CAN force Ganon to do things.

Fox plays the game outside of Ganon's side-B range. SHDL's force Ganon to approach. Ganon can't limit himself to thunderstorming, so Fox waits for Ganon to use any move that can't be autocancelled. The second Ganon uses ANY unautocancelled move at ANY time within Fox's side-B range, Fox can hit Ganon and start a combination, the bulk of which will almost always hit for at least 60% because of Ganon's weight. Fox also has the ability to punish any way of Ganon returning back to the ground, which in practice tends to leads to astronomical damage on a SINGLE opening Ganon gives, up to 90%.

Ganon simply can not force Fox to make enough mistakes to keep up with how vulnerable he is to Fox's combinations.

The ONLY reason this match is as high as 70-30 for Ganon is that a Fox with less experience against Ganon will try to punish lagless moves and take far heavier damage than a more experienced opponent.

*Bolding added

Why?

He forces Ganondorf to approach to a distance where lasering is punishable, that's it.

What forces Ganondorf to approach from outside side-b range? I don't know of anything that Fox has that functions as a safe poke move outside that range. Granted he can just approach and he has no issue doing so, but unlike the "dtilt is safe on block" thing (which was obviously shot down by data), I see nothing to force a specific spacing beyond making lasers punishable.

Could you please explain what forces Ganondorf to stay outside side-b range?

 

[Conviction]

Really, that's the only issue that jumped out at me as something, I was assenting to it for the most part because the rest of it seemed like a good analysis, and just wanted him to skip the "behavior" in favor of options, because he did factor it into the match-up.

The fact that Ganondorf is one of my secondaries doesn't mean I don't try to be as neutral as possible, I'm more worried about correct methodology then anything else, because I HOPE that it will produce a correct result.



However, taking a second look, I noticed that something's off.




*Bolding added

Why?

He forces Ganondorf to approach to a distance where lasering is punishable, that's it.

What forces Ganondorf to approach from outside side-b range? I don't know of anything that Fox has that functions as a safe poke move outside that range. Granted he can just approach and he has no issue doing so, but unlike the "dtilt is safe on block" thing (which was obviously shot down by data), I see nothing to force a specific spacing beyond making lasers punishable.

Could you please explain what forces Ganondorf to stay outside side-b range?

predictability.

 

[Dr. Hyde]

predictability.

I expected that reply

 

[Conviction]

I expected that reply

So do you see our point on that? or are you pyshic?

 

[Zhamy]

Ganon boards sound like Fox boards v. MK lol joke.

The main advantage Fox has is forcing Ganondorf to approach. Fox on the other hand is also terrible at approaching, and he dies a bit earlier than Ganon. Fox is so bad at approaching that you can usually shieldgrab him if he attempts to rush in with something like a D-air or whatever.

Fox is bad in approaching characters who outrange, outprioritize, and outspeed him while reliably covering most of his approach options. Ganondorf doesn't have the range and coverage of Marth, the priority of G&W, or the coverage of Falco. In other words, Fox dances on his grave.

Ganondorf can edgeguard Fox pretty darn well due to having a number of excellent attacks that beat out the SideB. Up-smash, F-smash, U-air, and D-air are good choices for punishing Fox's SideB if you read it. If he has to firefox, D-air him.

Despite how "easy" this looks on paper, Fox really doesn't get gimped that often. He has trouble recovering at certain heights, but Ganon can't cover all the means of escape that Fox has. And it's even easier for Fox to edgeguard Ganon, as Dair pseudo spikes, Bair sends him flying, Shine does its stuff, etc. etc.

This matchup is NOT that bad for Ganondorf.

Right, it's horrible.

All in all, Ganon's moveset is actually superior to Fox's minus the fact that Ganon has to approach.

What. Explain to me how Ganon is so low on the tier list if his moveset is comparable to a mid-tier character.

In close quarters, Ganon has the advantage especially if he finds Fox attacking his shield.

In close quarters, Fox has the advantage, especially if Ganon is being an idiot. Stupid argument, it presumes a situation that really doesn't happen that much against Ganon. But let's roll with it for giggles.

Ganon attacks Fox's shield. The only thing he can do is...grab. Whoo. I'm almost positive none of his moves are fast enough to beat out a jab from that position. And what happens if Fox ends up on the other side of Ganon's shield? Does Ganon have an answer for that?

1.) Gerudo > DTilt 21% Combo on Fox, more DTilts are possible.
2.) Ganondorf could KO Fox at "low" percentages. 60%, 75% max

1) If we're talking true combos, Fox craps all over Ganondorf. Gerudo will be harder to land than a Dair, and Dair->Utilt (x whatever) -> Usmash can easily run Ganondorf to 50%.
2) And Fox can easily bring Ganondorf to the 100%+ range.

Could you please explain what forces Ganondorf to stay outside side-b range?

Actually, I have no clue either about that one. I'm pretty sure that was either a mistake, or he's talking about laser camping.



If Ganon and Fox were to trade hits, one for one, Ganon would definitely win. But that's not what happens. Ganon will get in a hit or two, Fox will combo to some obscene percent. Mix and repeat. Ganon is just too slow and stuck with too crappy a moveset to deal with all of Fox's options, be they approaching or defensive.

70:30 Fox, easily. (If not more.)

 

[Ray_Kalm]

The only thing horrible about this matchup is your whining on Fox's favour.

Gerudo may be harder to land then Fox's DAir, but considering the time Ganon takes studying his opponents moves, gerudo is more worthwhile and useful.

 

[TP]

What. Explain to me how Ganon is so low on the tier list if his moveset is comparable to a mid-tier character.

His moveset is actually fine. The trouble is that Ganon sucks in pretty much every other category. He's a huge target, gets edge guarded easily, has a pretty bad recovery, falls fast enough for juggling, has no grab distance, and has poor mobility. The moveset isn't really an issue. This is irrelevant, but Ganon does do well in some areas. He isn't as bad as most people think he is, although he is still very bad.

 

[Clai]

I'm pretty sure you can't just sit there and dtilt us, though. Don't get me wrong, I could be incorrect here.. but I don't believe that.

utilt clanks with your dtilt, too, and comes out faster...

I just can't see how you're going to play this. I can't see a good way for you to:

1. get inside Fox without being punished
2. stop Fox from being all over you
3. kill faster than we can.

RAUR is a good edgeguard, but its range is somewhat limited, and if you miss, we get back on the stage... so we have to mix it up to avoid that, and it's a free stage... this is where I'm lacking what you'll actually do here.

I honestly don't see how you are any better at putting damage on us or killing us, either through edgeguarding or onstage killing.

The bolded part is exactly what I meant by "ignoring the speed factor." As long as we don't do anything laggy and stupid when Fox is inside of us, we shouldn't allow outselves and just stand there and get comboed to hell. One other thing, when I said "bait our aerials with d-tilt," I meant buffer our aerials with down-tilt so that the Fox player doesn't just shield us and come rushing at us while we have no options. By the way, I based my score on the fact that I thought that Fox didn't have any reliable approaches and I thought that Ganon could punish Fox harder than vice-versa. My mistake.

Now let me explain myself and my post. I don't know squat about Fox or his recent metagame. All I was doing is theorycrafting based on what Ganon is capable of doing. Yes, what I said was probably highly inaccurate, but it also brought a lot of people together to correct the inaccuracies with real data that explains the matchup much more thoroughly than a lot of the other matchup discussions we've had. Granted, I don't have much experience, but I try to incorporate all of Ganon's dimensions into this because a lot of people don't realize what he is capable of simply because, face it, you just don't see Ganon very often. Once we see Ganondorf in real high-level tournaments playing these characters, maybe we'll have a better taste of how these matchups stack up. For now, I'll remain skeptical, but accept that things aren't going to change for the old man.

Really, though, I'm tired, I'm sick, I'm outright disgusted with people from other boards going, "Hur-hur-hur Ganon is so slow we're just going to combo you and gimp you and you can't do anything about it because your attacks are so slow. Hur-hur 90-10 us!" Really, it's a slap in the face to us. What do you expect Ganon players to do, cry every time you get inside of us, give up and let you combo us to obscene percentages, let you gimp us and repeat for every stock? All I see in that is a Ganondorf player who doesn't have any heart. If you combo us like that, and you aren't Metaknight or Shiek, then the Ganondorf player is doing something wrong. I don't care what anyone says about Ganondorf, I am going to play him with pride and respect, even if the matchup is much more of an uphill battle than I intentionally thought. If I lose, I know that much more about the character and then I could so much more in these matchup discussions than just theorycrafting. Until then, thanks for the real discussion and hope that type continues instead of just having everyone treating Ganondorf like a poor old sack of crap that doesn't belong in this game.

 

[A6M Zero]

To the marth player who I'm too lazy to scroll up and read as to why Ganon has to stay outside Side-B range...



The length of Fox's side-B is roughly the amount of distance he can cover and still land a drill or forward air to punish Ganon using a move with lag.

Yes, if Ganon uses any non-autocancelled move within half the length of Final Destination, or 2/3 the length of battlefield, he's can potentially take 60% of damage.

It's not hard to virtually take a stock of Ganon off of landing a single drill. It's literally as easy as...

Drill -> Jab -> Grab -> Fthrow -> Dash attack -> utilt x3 or 4 -> upsmash.

and THEN you have Ganon trying to safely get back down to the ground against a character who can cover every single inch of vertical and horizontal space within your reach, which usually means another 30%. And at this point, Ganondorf is a shot and a smash away from dropping a stock off of ONE drill at 0%.


I don't mean to include behavior in my writeup, but the only way the Ganon can EVER hit Fox is to trick the Fox player into running into one of his moves, and the very NATURE of trying to trick the Fox player leaves Ganondorf essentially screwed.

Fox is one of the biggest Ganon counters in the game, destroying Ganon for playing solidly and destroying him harder for compensating for the matchup.

 

[Zhamy]

The only thing horrible about this matchup is your whining on Fox's favour.

Gerudo may be harder to land then Fox's DAir, but considering the time Ganon takes studying his opponents moves, gerudo is more worthwhile and useful.

+10 points for dumb assumptions, inability to actually argue any points made, and general lack of contribution to matchup thread. Good job; you won the idiocy contest. Now care to answer anything I pointed out?

The bolded part is exactly what I meant by "ignoring the speed factor." As long as we don't do anything laggy and stupid when Fox is inside of us, we shouldn't allow outselves and just stand there and get comboed to hell. One other thing, when I said "bait our aerials with d-tilt," I meant buffer our aerials with down-tilt so that the Fox player doesn't just shield us and come rushing at us while we have no options. By the way, I based my score on the fact that I thought that Fox didn't have any reliable approaches and I thought that Ganon could punish Fox harder than vice-versa. My mistake.

Okay, the baiting aerials part makes more sense; will do testing.

Now let me explain myself and my post. I don't know squat about Fox or his recent metagame.

Which means you should probably follow Fenrir's format of explaining what your character can do, then having the appropriate board respond.

Really, though, I'm tired, I'm sick, I'm outright disgusted with people from other boards going, "Hur-hur-hur Ganon is so slow we're just going to combo you and gimp you and you can't do anything about it because your attacks are so slow. Hur-hur 90-10 us!" Really, it's a slap in the face to us. What do you expect Ganon players to do, cry every time you get inside of us, give up and let you combo us to obscene percentages, let you gimp us and repeat for every stock? All I see in that is a Ganondorf player who doesn't have any heart. If you combo us like that, and you aren't Metaknight or Shiek, then the Ganondorf player is doing something wrong. I don't care what anyone says about Ganondorf, I am going to play him with pride and respect, even if the matchup is much more of an uphill battle than I intentionally thought. If I lose, I know that much more about the character and then I could so much more in these matchup discussions than just theorycrafting. Until then, thanks for the real discussion and hope that type continues instead of just having everyone treating Ganondorf like a poor old sack of crap that doesn't belong in this game.

Dude, every board that isn't top tier deals with the same kind of stuff. You just get used to it, laugh at the losers, and then 3 stock them next time you see them..

 

[DanGR]

*sigh*

Should I use this thread or this one for the matchup chart? (character board chart)

 

[TP]

*sigh*

Should I use this thread or this one for the matchup chart? (character board chart)

This one. Ignore the flashy chart on the first post and look at the numbers below. They are pretty accurate, though we rarely reach a true consensus.

Also, LOL at whoever said Fox is one of Ganon's hardest matches. We embrace 70:30. Falco, Sheik, Ice Climbers, DDD, and MK are far more troublesome than Fox could ever be. 70:30 may be huge for you, but it is pretty much average here.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Fox is only terrible at approaching characters with speed and a greater range than he does... say Marth... He has no problems approaching much of the cast. SH Dair is not used as an approach by good Foxes anymore.. SH Fair is easily better than that, and is unpunishable. Fox can approach Ganon.

Ganon has fast attacks that outrange Marth. HAHAHAHA.

Oh yeah, and Ganon's SH U-air > SH F-air.

Wow, you're really assuming the Fox player to suck here.. with any sort of mixup here, you simply don't have the speed to cover every option, such as going high, going for the ledge, shortenings, going into the stage, etc... Completely disregarding the idea of high Firefoxes, which really aren't that bad of an idea against you. That "if you read it" phrase is very important here... if you don't, you get nothing... and Ganon is only able to cover one option, leaving a couple others for the Fox player... Not too hard to get back to the stage.

If we read it, Fox gets owned in the butt. Ganon KOs him early and gimps hard. And good Ganons are very good at reading and keeping options open.

See, I disagree again. Fox can easily overwhelm Ganon's moveset with frame traps and smarter play... We're not going to be in front of you attacking your shield every time. Please take that mindset away, because in a higher level situation, as we should be discussing, Fox will not do this. We can outspace your grab range with several attacks, we have an unpunishable approach, a very good grab game (not great throws, really, but they put you in disadvantageous situations). Fox is one of the best punishers and killers in the game. I simply don't believe Ganon outclasses that.

What frame traps? Rapid Jabs LOL? SH U-air covers pretty much all of Fox's air approaches. If you do anything else, you get shieldgrabbed.

 

[adumbrodeus]

predictability.

He doesn't have to use side-B to stay within the range, generally speaking if you have nothing to discourage an opponent from that spacing, thy can take a closer range if they desire. Generally this is because you eventually run out of retreat space, and jumping over an opponent almost always is a bad position to be in.


Pokes for example, they're good with stopping advancement beyond a certain point because they brickwall by making movement a considerable risk.

Ganon boards sound like Fox boards v. MK lol joke.

Hey! Be nice, the guy who said Ganondorf's advantage says the same about ROB, the rest of us agree that Fox has a comfortable advantage in this match-up.

To the marth player who I'm too lazy to scroll up and read as to why Ganon has to stay outside Side-B range...



The length of Fox's side-B is roughly the amount of distance he can cover and still land a drill or forward air to punish Ganon using a move with lag.

Yes, if Ganon uses any non-autocancelled move within half the length of Final Destination, or 2/3 the length of battlefield, he's can potentially take 60% of damage.

It's not hard to virtually take a stock of Ganon off of landing a single drill. It's literally as easy as...

Drill -> Jab -> Grab -> Fthrow -> Dash attack -> utilt x3 or 4 -> upsmash.

and THEN you have Ganon trying to safely get back down to the ground against a character who can cover every single inch of vertical and horizontal space within your reach, which usually means another 30%. And at this point, Ganondorf is a shot and a smash away from dropping a stock off of ONE drill at 0%.

Ok, I see where you're going and it's a fair point (sort of figured that was what you were getting at), but that's only if Ganondorf does something punishable, and quite frankly it's better to be in a position that you can be punished hard but can also punish and approach from, and don't get continuous damage from lasers then be in a position that you really can't approach from AND you're getting laser damage continuously.

Optimal position for Ganondorf is closer then side-B, it's just not a particularly good position anyway, this is why it's a bad match-up, but at least he can do SOMETHING there.

I don't mean to include behavior in my writeup, but the only way the Ganon can EVER hit Fox is to trick the Fox player into running into one of his moves, and the very NATURE of trying to trick the Fox player leaves Ganondorf essentially screwed.

I'm just pointing out the assumption that the fox player will overlook Ganondorf and make a mistake.

You're right to include the mindgames element because it DOES factor into the match-up, but it's fundamentally character options-based, and it's potential. It feeds into predictability or lack thereof.

*sigh*

Should I use this thread or this one for the matchup chart? (character board chart)

The old one was intended, but this one snuck in.

Regardless, just use the existing ratios in both this and the old one, if we revisit match-ups (which I believe we will) we'll let you know about the update.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I'm the only person who doesn't think Fox isn't a terrible matchup?

Seriously, Ganon's moveset by far is better. In the closeup game, Ganon clearly has the advantage. Better range and power and only slightly less speed. Fox's air game is easily outspaced by Ganon too with SH F-airs and U-airs. Neither character is particularly safe when dealing with shields, but Ganon pushes away people farther and punishes harder. The only reason why Ganon loses is because ultimately Fox can camp with lasers which means he's more often in the positional advantage, but seriously, everything else is in Ganon's favor...

I'm convinced it is no worse than 6/4 Fox. This matchup in a way is like dealing with G&W, except Fox is just not nearly as powerful or as safe and easier to gimp. G&W I will point out camps better against Ganon than Fox moreover.

 

[adumbrodeus]

I'm the only person who doesn't think Fox isn't a terrible matchup?

Seriously, Ganon's moveset by far is better. In the closeup game, Ganon clearly has the advantage. Better range and power and only slightly less speed. Fox's air game is easily outspaced by Ganon too with SH F-airs and U-airs. Neither character is particularly safe when dealing with shields, but Ganon pushes away people farther and punishes harder. The only reason why Ganon loses is because ultimately Fox can camp with lasers which means he's more often in the positional advantage, but seriously, everything else is in Ganon's favor...

Not really, the major problem in this match-up is Ganondorf simply isn't safe on shield, he has to resort to prediction, and fox just hurts him that much harder on prediction. Uairs are his only real option, and unless reversed, they're too punishable, and even if reversed it's too predictable.

On the other hand, Fox DOES have safe on shield options, and some very dangerous combos off them, at best Ganondorf's safe attack leads to an ftilt/dtilt, whereas fox's leads to some really nice combos.

So, basically when they both have safe options, which is fundamentally superior? In this case, it's definately fox by a VERY wide margin unfortunately.


Fair is pretty useless unless fox is being predictable, too punishable.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Fox's only safe on shield option is F-air or properly spaced illusion.

And you outspace F-air with Up-air. Ganon's SH Up-air is pretty safe in this matchup unless you're at a KO percent (because the one counter to it is Up-smash).

Fox's combos are all escapable (except a few U-tilt juggles at low percents and D-air trip combos)

 

[A6M Zero]

Fox's only safe on shield option is F-air or properly spaced illusion.

And you outspace F-air with Up-air. Ganon's SH Up-air is pretty safe in this matchup unless you're at a KO percent (because the one counter to it is Up-smash).

Fox's combos are all escapable (except a few U-tilt juggles at low percents and D-air trip combos)

The combo that I posted is inescapable, except for ONE frame after the jab, which leaves Ganon enough time to shield...which does nothing because after the jab comes a grab.

The thing is...Fox doesn't really need to do that whole...attack shield thing. Besides, how's this for an onshield option... Drilling BEHIND ganon onto his shield into a firefox. If you've held that shield for a second you're going to either take 10-20% for the firefox (which you can't punish, and ends with fox being at his favorite range) or you're going to get shield broken.

 

[A2ZOMG]

If you drill behind Ganon, he can just roll away. Fox isn't a character that can always force this situation. His air mobility is not good enough. This isn't accounting for the fact that Ganon can space ATTACKS to punish your attacks as they come out.

Besides, reverse Up-B out of shield probably also beats your strategy.

 

[Shadow Nataku]

I'm not too big of a fan of this matchup simply because its a case of whoever gets the first hit in wins. Really, if Fox gets a good hit in than he can pretty much juggle and KO Ganon straight from that.

But it works in reverse, Fox gives away alot of momentum after Ganon gets him into the air. FAir and NAir are both beaten and outranged by Ganon's NAir or UAir, alot of people underestimate the priority and speed of that move. Heck Fox is susceptible to a DAir into a grab until like 15-20% and still be vulnerable to a near guaranteed DThrow ->UAir.

Yes even with his reflector shield taken into account, UAir just wrecks Fox too easily in spacing, knockback and damage once you get the chance. Really I don't see how Fox can recover after Ganon gets him off the stage, Fire Fox is extremely gimpable and Fox Illusion is the same thing.

I mean in close combat I'd put them at 50-50, really the only deciding factor for me in this matchup is simply that Fox's laser is spammable and if shielded has knockback, it does force Ganon to attack. Its not easily shieldable/dodgeable and if you don't do something you're going to eat clip damage like crazy. Its enough to push the matchup to a 60-40 in Fox's favour because if Ganon does his usual slow walk towards Fox he'll just be put under pressure.

I suppose you could just be stubborn and run off and hang from a ledge to stop his laser barrage but besides being really campy its not exactly safe to give Fox a early opportunity to come in for a DSmash or v+B.

 

[Conviction]

I'm the only person who doesn't think Fox isn't a terrible matchup?

Seriously, Ganon's moveset by far is better. In the closeup game, Ganon clearly has the advantage. Better range and power and only slightly less speed. Fox's air game is easily outspaced by Ganon too with SH F-airs and U-airs. Neither character is particularly safe when dealing with shields, but Ganon pushes away people farther and punishes harder. The only reason why Ganon loses is because ultimately Fox can camp with lasers which means he's more often in the positional advantage, but seriously, everything else is in Ganon's favor...

I'm convinced it is no worse than 6/4 Fox. This matchup in a way is like dealing with G&W, except Fox is just not nearly as powerful or as safe and easier to gimp. G&W I will point out camps better against Ganon than Fox moreover.

What part about Fox's moves come out faster do you not understand? If Fox moves were slower than ganon or ganon was on crack and became super fast then I would believe your moveset is better. Your right on power-based but, if you can't land a move what goood is power? Its like the Apes on Dragonball Ball Z games are Super powerful but slow as hell, but they back that up with SA frames, which ganon doesn't have SA frames for everyone move. See where I'm going with this?

 

[Gleam]

What part about Fox's moves come out faster do you not understand? If Fox moves were slower than ganon or ganon was on crack and became super fast then I would believe your moveset is better. Your right on power-based but, if you can't land a move what goood is power? Its like the Apes on Dragonball Ball Z games are Super powerful but slow as hell, but they back that up with SA frames, which ganon doesn't have SA frames for everyone move. See where I'm going with this?

You do realize that not all of Ganon's attacks have a 6 second start up and end lag right? Ganon has many fast attacks and its not his speed thats the problem because many of his attacks come out fairly quickly. Its the end lag on most of them that causes the problem. I mean if Ganon can hit other characters who can also attack faster than he can do the same to Fox.

 

[Conviction]

You do realize that not all of Ganon's attacks have a 6 second start up and end lag right? Ganon has many fast attacks and its not his speed thats the problem because many of his attacks come out fairly quickly. Its the end lag on most of them that causes the problem. I mean if Ganon can hit other characters who can also attack faster than he can do the same to Fox.

But my point is Ganon Moveset is not overall better because like you said we have less landing lag on most of our most. Yes you can autocancel things but Fox can punish things are not meant to be punished.