"The Triforce of Knowledge" Ganon's Match-Up Guide: Character Review, Kirby.

[Clai]

Dude, every board that isn't top tier deals with the same kind of stuff. You just get used to it, laugh at the losers, and then 3 stock them next time you see them..

The problem with that is: Ganondorf really does have a lot of bad, bad matchups. I'm not an idiot who thinks that Ganondorf secretly has an advantage over everyone and we don't realize it. If I sat back and said nothing, then the people who go "90-10 our character" without giving anything in the sense of data will actually be believable and be accepted on the boards. That's the difference between our character and most others- if someone posted that a character like Mario was 90-10 to your character because Fox gets comboed and gimped super-easy, then you would laugh at said poster, call him an idiot and move on. People who do that to the Ganon boards convince the rest of the board to search why the matchup is only 90-10 and not 95-05 or better. We have to argue our character just so people can think that Ganon is not a laughingstock and that fighting a Ganondorf player is akin to having a bye into the next round.

Hey! Be nice, the guy who said Ganondorf's advantage says the same about ROB, the rest of us agree that Fox has a comfortable advantage in this match-up.

Hey! Buddy! You must have missed the part where I admitted I was virtually talking out of my *** about the Fox matchup and said all of that so I can learn actual data about what Fox can do to a competant Ganondorf, considering that I assumed that the first person who talked about this matchup was assuming that Ganondorf is just going to stand there and let Fox combo him to oblivion. I still would like to see a video that actually demonstrates Fox at his current metagame so that I can make informed statements the next time, but I'm not going to be stubborn and refuse what's fact.

Oh, and unlike the Fox matchup, I have actual experience fighting ROB and it has backed up everything I said about that match-up. You can say whatever you want about the Ganon-ROB matchup, I have no problem what-so-ever using Ganondorf and will continue using him against ROB with upmost confidence.

As I said, I'm not an idiot. I know a lot of characters own Ganondorf hard. I'm just not convinced at all that EVERY character (who isn't Captain Falcon) counters him.

 

[A2ZOMG]

What part about Fox's moves come out faster do you not understand? If Fox moves were slower than ganon or ganon was on crack and became super fast then I would believe your moveset is better. Your right on power-based but, if you can't land a move what goood is power? Its like the Apes on Dragonball Ball Z games are Super powerful but slow as hell, but they back that up with SA frames, which ganon doesn't have SA frames for everyone move. See where I'm going with this?

Fox has slightly faster attacks, but by far worse range, and Ganon isn't significantly slower at actually starting up attacks. Many of his aerials and his tilts come out at around 10 frames or slightly less. That's pretty good when you consider how much range and power Ganon has behind each attack. Fox can easily die at under 100% if he takes a hit from any of these attacks if one is fresh.

U-air is around 7 frames if I recall, and it will at MINIMUM trade hits with any of Fox's aerial approaches. This means Fox has to look at ground approaches more, and all it takes is for Ganon to shield one, and he can punish it with Jab, F-tilt, or even a shieldgrab.

Also, while Ganon's F-smash is fairly slow, it has a ton of leanback and raw range. That too is very effective if Ganon reads a F-air approach, as it will kill Fox at around 70%.

See, the thing you underestimate is the fact Ganon DOES have options to deal with every angle from which you can approach. And blow for blow, Ganon will win.

Seriously, this matchup is NOT bad for Ganondorf. As I see it, Fox just doesn't have the options to constantly keep Ganon guessing, and none of the options he does have are extremely safe except laser camping from the right distance.

 

[-Mars-]

Utilt-frame 3
Ftilt-frame 6
Jab-frame 2
Dsmash-frame 6
Nair-frame 4
Fair-frame 7
Dair-frame 5
Shine-frame 3

All of these moves are faster(with the exception of fair) than anything Ganon has in his entire moveset.

Also I believe I remember some Smash veterans stating that their is no such thing as priority in the air. The determining factor for whatever move wins comes down to the speed at which the move comes out or is initiated and the range of the move. So no matter how much priority a reverse uair from Ganon has.....nair will beat that approach everytime.

In fact, if I felt like appproaching you I have several options.

Running shield, not as useful in this matchup for Fox as others due to Gerudo from Ganon. But it is still one of the best approaches any character in this game.............especially for the third-fastest character.

Nair behind your shield, really what are you going to do..........roll away? That means you heve done nothing to hinder my approach and now I have you on the run in a situation where Fox excels.

Full Hop shine-stalling, this is self explanatory. You try to meet me in the air with uair, I airdodge and get to the ground faster than you............now your in a bad position. You wait for the inevitable dair and usmash......I can either DI away with no harm to me or can catch you with a dair in between one of your usmashes. The best option for you is to walk away and once again.....your doing nothing to me. So I really don't see what Ganon wins with in this matchup.

The difference between the G&W-Ganon matchup and this one is simple.............speed. While G&W is a better character with a superior moveset than Fox, Foxs' moveset is more designed to take down Ganon than G&W ever can. G&W has like one bair approach on you, doesn't force you to approach, and doesn't have insane combos on you.

One mistake from Ganon against Fox and it's a guaranteed 20-30% everytime. Also Fox kills Ganon at the same percent as G&W. Fox punishes Ganon hard while G&W doesn't..that's the difference.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

Utilt-frame 3
Ftilt-frame 6
Jab-frame 2
Dsmash-frame 6
Nair-frame 4
Fair-frame 7
Dair-frame 5
Shine-frame 3

All of these moves are faster(with the exception of fair) than anything Ganon has in his entire moveset.

Also I believe I remember some Smash veterans stating that their is no such thing as priority in the air. The determining factor for whatever move wins comes down to the speed at which the move comes out or is initiated and the range of the move. So no matter how much priority a reverse uair from Ganon has.....nair will beat that approach everytime.

In fact, if I felt like appproaching you I have several options.

Running shield, not as useful in this matchup for Fox as others due to Gerudo from Ganon. But it is still one of the best approaches any character in this game.............especially for the third-fastest character.

Nair behind your shield, really what are you going to do..........roll away? That means you heve done nothing to hinder my approach and now I have you on the run in a situation where Fox excels.

Full Hop shine-stalling, this is self explanatory. You try to meet me in the air with uair, I airdodge and get to the ground faster than you............now your in a bad position. You wait for the inevitable dair and usmash......I can either DI away with no harm to me or can catch you with a dair in between one of your usmashes. The best option for you is to walk away and once again.....your doing nothing to me. So I really don't see what Ganon wins with in this matchup.

The difference between the G&W-Ganon matchup and this one is simple.............speed. While G&W is a better character with a superior moveset than Fox, Foxs' moveset is more designed to take down Ganon than G&W ever can. G&W has like one bair approach on you, doesn't force you to approach, and doesn't have insane combos on you.

One mistake from Ganon against Fox and it's a guaranteed 20-30% everytime. Also Fox kills Ganon at the same percent as G&W. Fox punishes Ganon hard while G&W doesn't..that's the difference.

UPair doesn't need more priority, it auto-prioritizes almost every move that doesn't last as long.

 

[A2ZOMG]

The difference between the G&W-Ganon matchup and this one is simple.............speed. While G&W is a better character with a superior moveset than Fox, Foxs' moveset is more designed to take down Ganon than G&W ever can. G&W has like one bair approach on you, doesn't force you to approach, and doesn't have insane combos on you.

One mistake from Ganon against Fox and it's a guaranteed 20-30% everytime. Also Fox kills Ganon at the same percent as G&W. Fox punishes Ganon hard while G&W doesn't..that's the difference.

G&W by far is safer on block on many more attacks including KO moves, and Fox will be hard pressed to land anything on a player who knows defense.

Fox only does 20-30% on Ganondorf at low percents. He doesn't have the tools to consistently keep up on the juggle follow ups the way G&W does. A good G&W does about 50% if they get a hit in and follow up right. G&W can approach with N-air against Ganondorf too a lot. G&W also KOs Ganon much earlier if he plays right (G&W's Up-smash > Fox's in terms of power and safety. If you do any approach while G&W is charging Up-smash, and he's good, you will die at around 80-90%), and he's faster moving in the air than Fox (while Fox only has faster startup on attacks, but slower movement, so doesn't punish Ganon as consistently with his air game). G&W can also force an approach with Chef if you are near or on the edge, and Chef by far is harder to work around once it is out.

I really don't think the matchup with Fox is any worse than 6/4 Fox. Fox is also a very predictable approacher. He's not very safe in general when actually attacking which means a lot for Ganon's defensive game. If you read his recovery, he gets punished pretty severely. He wins of course due to laser camping and being able to score a KO on demand more easily, but really, Ganon for the most part has answers in this matchup.

 

[Conviction]

Utilt-frame 3
Ftilt-frame 6
Jab-frame 2
Dsmash-frame 6
Nair-frame 4
Fair-frame 7
Dair-frame 5
Shine-frame 3

All of these moves are faster(with the exception of fair) than anything Ganon has in his entire moveset.

Also I believe I remember some Smash veterans stating that their is no such thing as priority in the air. The determining factor for whatever move wins comes down to the speed at which the move comes out or is initiated and the range of the move. So no matter how much priority a reverse uair from Ganon has.....nair will beat that approach everytime.

In fact, if I felt like appproaching you I have several options.

Running shield, not as useful in this matchup for Fox as others due to Gerudo from Ganon. But it is still one of the best approaches any character in this game.............especially for the third-fastest character.

Nair behind your shield, really what are you going to do..........roll away? That means you heve done nothing to hinder my approach and now I have you on the run in a situation where Fox excels.

Full Hop shine-stalling, this is self explanatory. You try to meet me in the air with uair, I airdodge and get to the ground faster than you............now your in a bad position. You wait for the inevitable dair and usmash......I can either DI away with no harm to me or can catch you with a dair in between one of your usmashes. The best option for you is to walk away and once again.....your doing nothing to me. So I really don't see what Ganon wins with in this matchup.

The difference between the G&W-Ganon matchup and this one is simple.............speed. While G&W is a better character with a superior moveset than Fox, Foxs' moveset is more designed to take down Ganon than G&W ever can. G&W has like one bair approach on you, doesn't force you to approach, and doesn't have insane combos on you.

One mistake from Ganon against Fox and it's a guaranteed 20-30% everytime. Also Fox kills Ganon at the same percent as G&W. Fox punishes Ganon hard while G&W doesn't..that's the difference.

Oi....this is becoming a drag I mean look at this he has came at you with solid facts. You guys are still arguing, this most biased comment ever. Unless your Ganon smash researcher can come with frame like that I say we have backed our point for 70:30+ and by the way Fox matches Fox 45:55 GaW so... that might not mean much but I think Fox has it here. Can we finish this arguement. We are repeating ourselves like broken records.... and it seems we are on a impass... niether side is backing down on basically one point, then it starts back to beginning. I wouldn't complain if this match up was going somewhere. So can we move on or bring news points?

 

[Ray_Kalm]

Oi....this is becoming a drag I mean look at this he has came at you with solid facts. You guys are still arguing, this most biased comment ever. Unless your Ganon smash researcher can come with frame like that I say we have backed our point for 70:30+ and by the way Fox matches Fox 45:55 GaW so... that might not mean much but I think Fox has it here. Can we finish this arguement. We are repeating ourselves like broken records.... and it seems we are on a impass... niether side is backing down on basically one point, then it starts back to beginning. I wouldn't complain if this match up was going somewhere. So can we move on or bring news points?

We didn't prove points? Check the last 3 pages.

What part about Fox's moves come out faster do you not understand? If Fox moves were slower than ganon or ganon was on crack and became super fast then I would believe your moveset is better. Your right on power-based but, if you can't land a move what goood is power? Its like the Apes on Dragonball Ball Z games are Super powerful but slow as hell, but they back that up with SA frames, which ganon doesn't have SA frames for everyone move. See where I'm going with this?

and Fox is like Burter from DBZ, very fast but has weaknesses he doesn't want to admit.

 

[Conviction]

We didn't prove points? Check the last 3 pages.

Ok but we disprove them and then it repeats.... yea and repeating is starting, is becoming a drag...

and Fox is like Burter from DBZ, very fast but has weaknesses he doesn't want to admit.

Why did expect this answer? Here is my simple reply: Weaknesses you can't exploit.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Fox's weaknesses are being unsafe on shields, lightweight, and being rather weak offstage.

It might be arguable how punishable Fox's recovery is, but Fox's inability to stay safe on shields and his low weight are truly weaknesses that Ganon can take advantage of.

 

[Conviction]

So after coming to a closing point what is the final ratio? Also I have great idea I belive both boards can agree on! We could do a forum battle 5 best Ganons from Ganon boards vs. 5 Foxes best from Fox boards. It maybe WIFI but this the closest thing we can get to.

P.S. I hate ending on bad terms.

 

[-Mars-]

G&W by far is safer on block on many more attacks including KO moves, and Fox will be hard pressed to land anything on a player who knows defense.

Fox only does 20-30% on Ganondorf at low percents. He doesn't have the tools to consistently keep up on the juggle follow ups the way G&W does. A good G&W does about 50% if they get a hit in and follow up right. G&W can approach with N-air against Ganondorf too a lot. G&W also KOs Ganon much earlier if he plays right (G&W's Up-smash > Fox's in terms of power and safety. If you do any approach while G&W is charging Up-smash, and he's good, you will die at around 80-90%), and he's faster moving in the air than Fox (while Fox only has faster startup on attacks, but slower movement, so doesn't punish Ganon as consistently with his air game). G&W can also force an approach with Chef if you are near or on the edge, and Chef by far is harder to work around once it is out.

I really don't think the matchup with Fox is any worse than 6/4 Fox. Fox is also a very predictable approacher. He's not very safe in general when actually attacking which means a lot for Ganon's defensive game. If you read his recovery, he gets punished pretty severely. He wins of course due to laser camping and being able to score a KO on demand more easily, but really, Ganon for the most part has answers in this matchup.

Dair>usmash isn't hard to land at all, I don't think Fox will ever have problems killing Ganondorf.

Fox does 20-30%% everytime he lands a dair. Dair>utilt, dair>jab>dthrow, dair>dsmash, dair>utilt>dair if you don't DI perfectly, dair>usmash all do 20%.

"A good G&W does about 50% if they get a hit in and follow up right" Honestly you can say this about any character in the game. Fox can dair>utilt>utilt>usmash and that's 50% right there. Any "good" player can put 50% on anyone.....I don't see where you were going with this.

So what if Fox is a predictable approacher........what does that matter if we never have to approach. I thought we already went over that.

You can punish any character hard if you read their recovery and Fox doesn't have a bad recovery. You guys keep bringing up edgeguarding into the discussion when Fox does the same to you, and it will be hard for you to reach us safely anyways.

You still haven't brought up any valid approaches or up close options that are superior to Foxs'. Reverse uairs are easily countered with a running shield...in fact anything you do is countered with a running shield. Your not even safe in dtilt range.

 

[Mmac]

Tis Yoshi's time now?

It seems like You guys are still talking about Fox, I will wait

 

[Ray_Kalm]

Tis Yoshi's time now?

It seems like You guys are still talking about Fox, I will wait

No go ahead, start us off. Start off with the usual "We own Ganon bad", if you like.

 

[Mmac]

No go ahead, start us off. Start off with the usual "We own Ganon bad", if you like.

Well.... we do have a Zero Death on him

 

[A2ZOMG]

Dair>usmash isn't hard to land at all, I don't think Fox will ever have problems killing Ganondorf.

D-air U-smash is only a combo if Fox gets a trip as far as I recall. It will be shieldgrabbed otherwise.

Fox's best bet for landing a U-smash is reading a dodge, or Up-smashing out of shield.

Fox does 20-30%% everytime he lands a dair. Dair>utilt, dair>jab>dthrow, dair>dsmash, dair>utilt>dair if you don't DI perfectly, dair>usmash all do 20%.

D-air combos are shielded pretty easily most of the time.

"A good G&W does about 50% if they get a hit in and follow up right" Honestly you can say this about any character in the game. Fox can dair>utilt>utilt>usmash and that's 50% right there. Any "good" player can put 50% on anyone.....I don't see where you were going with this.

G&W has tools that keep people in the air regardless of whether they air dodge or do anything. Fox does not. G&W is also by far better at chasing his opponent.

So what if Fox is a predictable approacher........what does that matter if we never have to approach. I thought we already went over that.

The problem is Fox's camping is not exactly hard to stop either. Unlike other camping, it doesn't stop people from just attacking Fox, and there is a LOT of margin for error when Fox laser camps. Once Ganondorf is within the range where he can reach Fox with a dash attack, Fox is at a disadvantage. In this range, Fox cannot easily reach Ganon with any attacks. He cannot safely laser camp. And he almost invariably has to approach. He has to either mindgame into a dashgrab, or PRAY Ganon doesn't shield, N-air, or U-air and go for an aerial.

You can punish any character hard if you read their recovery and Fox doesn't have a bad recovery. You guys keep bringing up edgeguarding into the discussion when Fox does the same to you, and it will be hard for you to reach us safely anyways.

F-tilt Fox and he's not making it back to the stage easily without taking a hit unless he DIed that perfectly, which is not easy to do on reaction. If Ganon just slightly hits Fox slightly away offstage, this is the worst position for Fox to be in. This has taken Fox's ground game out of the equation, and this is the best position for Ganon to actually gimp Fox. Any well placed aerial from Ganon beats out or trades with Fox's aerials, and this goes true for reverse U-air and D-air too.

You still haven't brought up any valid approaches or up close options that are superior to Foxs'. Reverse uairs are easily countered with a running shield...in fact anything you do is countered with a running shield. Your not even safe in dtilt range.

See, a good Ganon is completely aware that U-air brickwall is supposedly countered by ground approaches like running shields. Shielding is countered by Flame Choke. If Ganon forces you to approach with shield, he has the advantage as he has just limited your options. The only time it's not a good idea for Ganon to do this is at high percents, as it shouldn't be hard for Fox to run up with up-smash and hit Ganon out of his Up-air.

Vs Yoshi, let's discuss this without the infinite.

Yoshi has Eggs....so Ganon has to approach yeah.

U-air beats out Yoshi's aerials as long as Ganon has space.

F-tilt is pretty **** at getting Yoshi offstage for easy edgeguards.

Yoshi's D-air or N-air look useful for edgeguarding Ganon.

Yoshi for whatever reason is hard to Thunderstorm.

Dunno what else to say. Probably 55/45 to 6/4 Yoshi. I've talked to Inui about this matchup, and he says it is even without the chaingrab. Make of that what you will.

 

[Poltergust]

OK, let's not mess this up like we did with the Jigglypuff discussion. Alright?

...That said, I'm too lazy to say anything now. Maybe later.

 

[Koskinator]

If you get grabbed, you die. Pick a new character.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

@Kosk: Not gonna happen <_<, at least not for me. That just makes it all the better.

 

[adumbrodeus]

@Kosk: Not gonna happen <_<, at least not for me. That just makes it all the better.

This is not a Ganondorf grab range character. Yoshi can actually reliably grab you. This is one of those "omg, thank god for counterpicks" match-ups.


I'm sorry, but grab=death match-ups are virtually unwinnable , I see no reason to bother. It's match-ups like this that make me glad that I also play Marth and Zelda/sheik.

 

[bigman40]

They are right. To be honest, why would we not discuss this matchup without the CG to spike when it's going to be abused by alot of yoshi mains? In a tourney, I know sure as hell, I'm gonna CG to spike you if you get grabbed, and I know that other mains will unless they follow a code of honor. But if you guys wish to make a discussion w/o the CG to spike, be my guest. I don't have much intel on this anyway other than Uairs, Autocanceled Dairs, and Jabs are your best weapon against us (this is my opinion!).

 

[A2ZOMG]

Yeah, this is Ganon's 2nd worst matchup with the CG, but...well...I like ignoring the CG. =/

 

[adumbrodeus]

They are right. To be honest, why would we not discuss this matchup without the CG to spike when it's going to be abused by alot of yoshi mains? In a tourney, I know sure as hell, I'm gonna CG to spike you if you get grabbed, and I know that other mains will unless they follow a code of honor. But if you guys wish to make a discussion w/o the CG to spike, be my guest. I don't have much intel on this anyway other than Uairs, Autocanceled Dairs, and Jabs are your best weapon against us (this is my opinion!).

I think certain tournaments ban it, and that does give it a point. Also, some stages don't allow it or make it very situational if I remember correctly, so it's got it's counter-picks use.

Regardless, not doing it because of an honor code is BS, use any tournament legal means to win, that's the honor code of the competitive gamer, the rules ARE our honor code in-game, no more no less.

 

[SaltyKracka]

I think certain tournaments ban it, and that does give it a point. Also, some stages don't allow it or make it very situational if I remember correctly, so it's got it's counter-picks use.

Regardless, not doing it because of an honor code is BS, use any tournament legal means to win, that's the honor code of the competitive gamer, the rules ARE our honor code in-game, no more no less.

Still, doesn't BF kind of just negate the CG?

 

[Gleam]

Battlefield or basically any level that has an platforms or even just a higher indention that the character falls higher up on the level before Yoshi can regrab him. Really there's some few good levels that can be counterpicked on Yoshi for Ganon to nullify the chaingrab.

I mean there's such good amount of stage counter that we're really going to have to put this match as both

Yoshi w/ Chaingrab

and Yoshi w/o Chaingrab.

 

[Snowstalker]

Yoshi w/o chaingrab: 60:40 Yoshi

Yoshi with chaingrab: 75:25 Yoshi

I had a nice post on it a few pages back.

 

[_clinton]

I'm going to start to do Ness vs. Ganon

Match-Up Ratio
-I don't care ATM...
Gerudo Effectiveness
-Well I know Ganon's Side special does have a set up on Ness...with D-Tilt of course
The Stage(s)
-Depends on the Ness really...but to be fair...certain lava stages and water stages that I know a lot of Ness' love won't love them that much with Ganon's Murder Choke being in the hood ^_^
Approach/Defense Options
-He should approach for the most part because of things like PK Thunder going on his *** if he doesn't...if Ness gets happy with PK Fire...do note that the murder foot does travel over the low ground bolt...of course Ness can actually duck under a lot of Ganondorf's attacks, but that doesn't mean much...Ness' running away Fair can make things hard to get near him I guess...Ness' Nair is also a factor here when it comes to getting in close to Ness...
Aerial Options
-Ness IMO...the only thing Ganon has for confort is knowing that his Uair is still badass...
Building up Damage
-Well I wait to hear what you guys say in this...
Dealing with projectiles
-Depends on the Ness as well for this one...PK Fire has a lot of different uses overall...however for any ground use (like I said already) Ganondorf will beat it with a murder kick in some way...of course...you don't really want to murder choke into PK Fire...
Stomp
-Ness' Fair's hitbox is bigger then he is and can change it's location depending on how he moves...just saying I don't see how Ganondorf's Murder stomp is much of a factor
Edge Guarding
-Well Ness sort of ***** Ganondorf's recovery...fun fact...PK Thunder stage spikes, PK Flash, Yoyo stage spikes...Ness' spike having even more power then Ganondorf's spike at 0% is also fun (by a lot actually) Ness can sort of flat out control where Ganondorf goes in his recovery IMO...of course this is Ganon's recovery we are talking about...
I don't know if Ganondorf really returns the favor though (a reverse Uair for example may be beaten by Ness' Fair, plus Ness' 2nd jump really is all that he needs to make it back most of the time) but I'll see what you guys say about Ness...even though I'm sure the post will have something to do with PK Thunder...
A Special Technique
-Go on the Ness boards and look up "PK Cross" ^_^
Video(s)
I guess I could go look for some, if you guys want me to...

Oh and can we talk of Lucas?

 

[PKNintendo]

It's preferred that you follow theses posting guidelines:
Match-Up Ratio- In my opinion it's between 4-6 or 35-65 for Ness.
-Explanation, and at least a basic discussion of possible strategies.

Essentially, Ness being an aerial prone character, will stick to the skies, fair outranges and beats out Ganons, aerials so it's a moot point to try to fight Ness in the air. Expect SH aerial's. PKF works really well on Ganny, since he's a heavy and it guarantees a grab or a possible Fsmash if Ness is close. PK flash works on Ganny, since he's recovery is predictable. Ness ground game is decent too.

Gerudo Effectiveness
his ground attacks have more range, and he's heavy.

-Explanation on how much gerudo and its follow ups benefit Ganondorf in the match-up.
The Stage(s)

The one I played like Delfino plaza and Lylat cruise. I believe he picked delfino to make it so he doesn't have to recover as much, and his Forward B air spike works better. Lylat cruise simply because of the forward B suicide.

- The stage counter picks.
Tetra's ship is Ness best level by far, and FD too because of his PKT shenigans.

Approach/Defense Options
-Explanation on how Ganondorf should approach, or if he should at all, along with how he should play defensively.

Approaching Ness? Well Ganon doesn't really have the best tools to deal with PKT from afar, and PKF is a good spacer.

Aerial Options
-Explanation on who's Aerials are better and what counters what.
Building up Damage

Explained before, but Ness' aerials are much better in most aspects. Damage building and KOing too.
-Explanation on how to build up damage.

Damage building via PKF, aerial strings, repeated PKT too
Dealing with projectiles

-Explanation on how to deal with the opponent(s) projectile, if it has one.
PKT only weaknesses is it's poor priority, aerials can cancel it out, however the tail has infinite priority, and most Ness' will loop PKT.

-Explanation about stomping, weather it's useful here or not.

Ness small size and tendancy to stay in the air makes it difficult.
Edge Guarding

-Explanation on how to edge guard the current opponent.
Jump and try to hit PKT while Ness uses, usually unwise because it leads into a PKT2, a powerful KO move.


A Special Technique
-Name a special technique that the opponent has and ways to avoid it.
Video(s)
I don't think Ness has any on special techniques.

-Link to one or more videos of the match-up.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vi98txKHhTI

 

[Ostro]

Hmm...well, any real tourney won't ban the CG, so that's not a problem.

Also, because you can only pick Battlefield once per set if you happen to beat Yoshi there, Ganon is in danger of being CGed in 2 out of the three matches, which isn't looking good for Ganon.



Also, Ganon should always ban Castle Siege before every set vs. Yoshi. Just saying.

 

[PKNintendo]

Forgot matchup numbers. To be honest it's either 6-4 or 65-35 for Ness.

 

[Ryusuta]

It should also be noted that Battlefield does NOT totally negate the CG by any means. It just gives Yoshi a couple less places to do it. There are still several places he can CG Ganon without risk of him landing on a platform. For instance, if I catch Ganon underneath a platform with a grab, chances are, you'll get hit with a full CG, whether I'm facing left or right. If I'm under the left platform facing right, you'll pop out just short of the far platform, I catch you again, you pop out past the far platform, then you'll pop out off of the stage. If I'm facing left, you'll just pop out past the platform I'm under.

It certainly limits the CG a little, but it doesn't take it out of the equation by any means. Just wanted to throw that in there really quick, since most of the big points have been hit, and it looks like you guys are moving on to Ness pretty soon.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I played a ****load of G&W vs Ganon matchups with Ray_Kalm. I won like 95% of them, and most of them were like 2stocks. =/

I saved a bunch of replays, so once they are up, we should analyze them. Personally me, I thought Ray_Kalm didn't focus enough on challenging my B-air approaches with the right attacks. That's just me though.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

I played a ****load of G&W vs Ganon matchups with Ray_Kalm. I won like 95% of them, and most of them were like 2stocks. =/

I saved a bunch of replays, so once they are up, we should analyze them. Personally me, I thought Ray_Kalm didn't focus enough on challenging my B-air approaches with the right attacks. That's just me though.

Not just the ones of you winning, I hope.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I can't remember if any of the ones where you won were under 3 minutes. There might be one of that...

 

[stRIP]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K6z03pPsMYo&fmt=18


i think thats a very good one for the examples of fights vs Snake

its a bit old but its good

 

[TP]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K6z03pPsMYo&fmt=18


i think thats a very good one for the examples of fights vs Snake

its a bit old but its good

To be honest, that fight was awful. He kept approaching you and there was no grenade cooking and he never grabbed you. Awful.

 

[Albert.]

This has moved onto the Marth discussion, correct?

Ganon can **** Marth if the Marth doesn't know the match-up.

Otherwise if the marth plays defensively than the ganon is screwed.

 

[Liquid Gen]

Marth's FAir ***** Ganon, as far as I know.

HOWEVER, Ganon's up air is beast in juggling Marth. Down air out of shield ***** his side b should it be shieled.

But this matchup is still very one sided for Marth if the Marth is knowledgeable at all. =[

 

[feardragon64]

Marth outspaces, outranges, outprioritizes, outgimps, out-everything's ganon. 80:20. Ganon's largest advantages are that Marth is light....and Marth doesn't have an insta-win button.

 

[adumbrodeus]

I already posted a great deal of material on this, so I'll quote my past summery and link to what I think is the best counter-objection post.

Marth's spacing game is incredibly deadly against Ganondorf. Realistically his 4 safe pokes (fair, dtilt, ftilt, nair) in addition to his insane punishment game **** Ganondorf.


High level match-up develops like this:


Marth gets Ganondorf into poke spacing, Ganondorf has no tool to force a close approach. This means that Marth can freely apply all the sheild pressure he wants and Ganondorf is forced to approach from that spacing since there's no way to force a more advantagious spacing without approaching, this isn't nessecarily a disadvantage, but against Marth it always is effectively.


Unfortunately, Marth's OOS game is INCREDIBLE, tap his shield with anything and you're either getting a dancing blade or a Dolphin slash to the face. 4 frame start up and 0 frame start-up (invincable till the frame 5 hitbox) btw. This means that even the normally safe reverse uair doesn't work, Marth just punishes too well and the shield-stun isn't enough.

Don't even try d-tilt, he can punish that too.



So, like Ganondorf against Captain Falcon, forced to approach via a safe poke move (or projectiles for that matter) and every approach is punishable. That means a disadvantage right there.




They both have nice edge-guarding options, but Marth is gonna be so much better at getting Ganondorf off-stage, especially since the optimal spacing for Marth happens to be his sweet-spot, and Ganondorf is reletively easy to edgeguard.


Also, Marth has a safe on block kill move here, which is his last poke, nair. That is Marth's primary weakness in most match-ups. Gone. That and the pokes are unpredictable.


To add insult to injury, fair KILLS murder choke, it's too fast and has too large a hitbox, and is too disjointed. That's both ground and aerial murder choke btw.

As another little insult, no guarenteed murder choke follow-ups on Marth.

And then there's just his zoning game, he can wall you the entire match by throwing out hitboxes to prevent you from even being close to him.



80-20, Marth is a HORRIBLE match-up for Ganondorf. I'd venture to say he might be worse then MK and DDD. Ganondorf's only advantage here is early kills via tipman and Marth's lightness. Definately a lot worse then Samus, Marth just shuts Ganondorf down when played properly.

Further explanations of Marth's options, safety on block, etc, ultimately answers most objections to previous post.

 

[TP]

Bump.

Let's do Bowser next, for obvious reasons.