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The Top Ten Videos of Each Character

ph00tbag

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I think the Korn vs. Kirby match-up should be shown. Sure Korn messed up, but that's why people lose. If you only ever showed matches of people playing perfectly, first of all your Brinstar match would be the first to go because Razer dealt most of his own damage and was responsible for most of his own KOs. I mean, frankly, DMG, you're making up a ton of bull****. Chu's capitalization on Korn's two moments of poor play despite playing perfectly for the first half of the match is somehow completely worthless to you, when despite several ZSS mains saying that shlike's video vs. Broly simply shows that Broly didn't know the match-up, you put it up without a second thought. Razer killing himself with 'nades while you sit around and wait for him to screw up is cool, but I've seen plenty of times where you perfunctorily refuse a video because you don't think it's campy enough.

What the hell are your criteria? I can't tell. I'm consistently confused by your selection process.
 

ErikG

Smash Ace
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Isn't the point of these videos to be an instructional tool to newer players? An incredible comeback, while entertaining, isn't going to truly portray how to properly play a character.
 

DMG

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DMG#931
Regardless of how campy some one is, going from having a solid stock lead to reverse 2 stocked in a matchup your character wins doesn't seem like a very good representation for a video. If I play Wario and go from having a stock lead on a Donkey Kong to getting reversed two stocked, chances are I messed up big somewhere along the line.

I could put up the match where Meep 2 stocks M2K where he chases Meep around the stage and attacks every 2 seconds, or I can display the one where M2K glides under the stage over and over and basically times him out camping a platform. What match would teach more about either character? The one where one side clearly takes a path that is not as successful as the other options? It's one thing to make mistakes, but to deviate strategically from a "path" or style that does noticeably better, and to willingly choose so, negatively impacts whatever instructional purpose the video could serve.

I don't care about how campy/gay a match is, SO LONG as those things are not extremely necessary to demonstrate the character's capabilities/matchups. Unfortunately, a lot of matchups are dictated by "campiness/gayness" to some degree. Most established matchups are based on camping. I can name 80% of specific matchups where camping, in some form or fashion even if it is not severe, proves the real worth of a matchup or where by camping in that matchup, you do noticeably better than being aggressive.

I don't think it's entirely necessary for MK to try and time out Kirby, but you can't honestly tell me that MK, or generally ANY character, is supposed to play THAT aggressive with a stock lead, ESPECIALLY considering he basically lost the match because of that choice.

As for Broly/Shlike match, I had varying opinions on it. I had players, including ZSS players, tell me yes, no, maybe so, not sure, etc. I will take that one down, I do think that last update I rushed it out too soon without checking everything 100%. But for the Korn/Chu video, IDK I'm really not convinced to put it up.

Also, like I pointed out, that video is missing some interesting things. How is Kirby supposed to approach MK when he is ahead and plays safer? I was under the assumption that part of the reason MK has a good matchup against Kirby was because Kirby isn't that hot at really approaching, hence MK can sit back and force him to come fight on his terms. That aspect of the matchup wasn't demonstrated very well in that video. I think that aspect of the matchup, and Kirby overall, is very important to demonstrate.
 

Kaffei

Smash Hero
Joined
Feb 8, 2008
Messages
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Regardless of how campy some one is, going from having a solid stock lead to reverse 2 stocked in a matchup your character wins doesn't seem like a very good representation for a video. If I play Wario and go from having a stock lead on a Donkey Kong to getting reversed two stocked, chances are I messed up big somewhere along the line.

I could put up the match where Meep 2 stocks M2K where he chases Meep around the stage and attacks every 2 seconds, or I can display the one where M2K glides under the stage over and over and basically times him out camping a platform. What match would teach more about either character? The one where one side clearly takes a path that is not as successful as the other options? It's one thing to make mistakes, but to deviate strategically from a "path" or style that does noticeably better, and to willingly choose so, negatively impacts whatever instructional purpose the video could serve.

I don't care about how campy/gay a match is, SO LONG as those things are not extremely necessary to demonstrate the character's capabilities/matchups. Unfortunately, a lot of matchups are dictated by "campiness/gayness" to some degree. Most established matchups are based on camping. I can name 80% of specific matchups where camping, in some form or fashion even if it is not severe, proves the real worth of a matchup or where by camping in that matchup, you do noticeably better than being aggressive.

I don't think it's entirely necessary for MK to try and time out Kirby, but you can't honestly tell me that MK, or generally ANY character, is supposed to play THAT aggressive with a stock lead, ESPECIALLY considering he basically lost the match because of that choice.

As for Broly/Shlike match, I had varying opinions on it. I had players, including ZSS players, tell me yes, no, maybe so, not sure, etc. I will take that one down, I do think that last update I rushed it out too soon without checking everything 100%. But for the Korn/Chu video, IDK I'm really not convinced to put it up.

Also, like I pointed out, that video is missing some interesting things. How is Kirby supposed to approach MK when he is ahead and plays safer? I was under the assumption that part of the reason MK has a good matchup against Kirby was because Kirby isn't that hot at really approaching, hence MK can sit back and force him to come fight on his terms. That aspect of the matchup wasn't demonstrated very well in that video. I think that aspect of the matchup, and Kirby overall, is very important to demonstrate.

That's very, very true, and I agree with the fact that camping is a good strategy as you stated.

However, I feel as if many players do not "learn" anything from camping because they think it's a "gay way to play/cheap" even though it's good to camp vs some MUs.
I think you should try to find some videos that are good (I'm not exactly sure what a good video is nor do I have a say in it since you are far better at analyzing Brawl than I am) but without too much camping. Just my 2 cents.
 

DMG

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DMG#931
If playing campy/gay is the proper way to play the matchup, I don't care if people don't like it. This thread is about teaching, not about winning popularity contests or looking good.
 

Framerate

Smash Lord
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May 7, 2007
Messages
1,036
Having a campy match only teaches players how to hit the opponent once and run away for the rest of the match. It doesn't help them learn how to actually use the characters moves beyond spamming the high-priority ones while their opponent is forced to approach. I'm sorry but when I look for a video to learn how to play a specific character I don't want to watch someone run away with that character for 5+ minutes. Maybe that wins matches, but it doesn't teach me squat. Ok, I learned how to utilize MK's dair in that specific instance where the other player tried to approach. That helps a lot...

What should be portrayed in the best match of each character is the character being used to it's full potential. Well [Players Name Here] can't beat [Other Player] by simply playing his character, so here's a match of him hitting the other guy once and running away. Thanks a lot. I learned so much.

I wanna learn how to DACUS with shiek. I wanna learn the proper timing for snakes footstool-mine combo or see all of IC's CGs. I want to see the full potential of pikachu's QUAC. I don't want to watch a great MK player resort to hitting his opponent once and timing out the match while some poor diddy or wario chases him around hoping to get some damage on MK before the clock hits 0.

Camping doesn't show what a specific character can do, but what the other character cannot.
 

ErikG

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That's a gross misinterpretation of camping. Camping isn't about running away after getting one hit in. It is about forcing your opponent to approach and about limiting their options. Yes, running away can be considered camping, but there is more to camping than exclusively running.
 

bassem6

Smash Lord
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Isn't the point of these videos to be an instructional tool to newer players? An incredible comeback, while entertaining, isn't going to truly portray how to properly play a character.
What is portrayed in the chu vs korn match is how to maximize punishment against an mk that is being overaggressive.

If playing campy/gay is the proper way to play the matchup, I don't care if people don't like it. This thread is about teaching, not about winning popularity contests or looking good.
There can be multiple ways in dealing with a matchup. As, I said above, the chu vs korn video displays how to effectively maximize punishment on an overaggressive mk, no matter how good the mk may be. I dont understand why you cant post that one which teaches players how to do one thing and then post another one that shows a kirby effectively dealing with a CAMPY mk.

If the only kirby vids you post are of kirbys finding ways to deal with campy mks, new kirby players wont know how to deal with AGGRESSIVE mks. You can post more than one vid for each character you know.

Also, the thread title is the "best vids of each character" which is quite vague as what makes a characters video "best" is kind of subjective, not "the best vids of every character's most effective MU strategies" so you may want to consider a different title if thats all your going to be displaying.

Btw, you may want to take fiction off of the list since he doesnt play wario anymore. Im not sure if he is still playing brawl even. Maybe you could consider adding me as well.
 

Kaffei

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If playing campy/gay is the proper way to play the matchup, I don't care if people don't like it. This thread is about teaching, not about winning popularity contests or looking good.
That's true, lol, but there isn't just one way to win a MU.
 

phi1ny3

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That's the problem with inhale, you have to decide whether it is a legitimate solution (albeit risky) to throw out against an option you think your opponent was going to throw out, except winning results in getting a great position. But the problem is, was it a mistake in spacing, or merely an incorrect guess on Korn's part?
 

phi1ny3

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Masky, come to GO 3.0 pl0x. :D

On topic: It doesn't entirely matter if there's more ways to win as a whole, because we are talking about two particular characters, of which MK benefits most from defensive "gay" play.
 

bassem6

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Imagine there's a character who turns invincible and stays that way if you're holding the L button.

Sure, you could fight without it. But it'd be ********

(It's basically the same situation with MK, since I'm pretty sure Kirby has no way of getting through MK's fair/spacing)
That character or move would be banned. There is nothing that broken in brawl (although planking against certain characters is up there)

There are more than one viable approaches or strategies in most MU's.
 

Kaffei

Smash Hero
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Imagine there's a character who turns invincible and stays that way if you're holding the L button.

Sure, you could fight without it. But it'd be ********

(It's basically the same situation with MK, since I'm pretty sure Kirby has no way of getting through MK's fair/spacing)

Wouldn't that be banned though? I mean realistically with legal strategies.
 

ph00tbag

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I think the strategy of ledgegrabing for invincibility just before MK reaches the ledge, forcing him to land on the stage after Drill Rush, then inhaling him during the lag is a brilliant strategy. Even if it worked primarily because of the sheer audacity of it, I think it has much more practical applications.
 

Zankoku

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DMG:
Messing up big is only if the player capitalizes on it. Korn's punishment for trying to catch Kirby with frametraps off of his charged fsmash was about 15-30% damage. Korn's punishment for not reacting to Kirby's bair quickly enough and being forced to recover was a full stock. I saw no over-aggression, only one player getting notably shaken from a ridiculous KO setup that made an instant turnaround.
 

phi1ny3

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I don't think that DMG is saying it isn't valid entirely, as it is that it didn't showcase more of a variety of the metagame in that one moment, and thus not as beneficial to a newer player as another video.
Regardless, I'd say it was legitimate.
 

DMG

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DMG#931
Ankoku: Do you think it was smart for Korn to keep approaching with a stock lead? I'm not saying he should have RAN or anything, but cmon he could have waited for Kirby to come and try to bair/attack before he did anything. Instead, he rushed ahead and lost it.

I don't think the video is completely invalid. I do think that past the point where Korn had the stock lead, that his choice to continue approaching as such ruined part of what could have been a better instructional video if he had played reasonably different. I'll put it up, even though I personally wouldn't display it, since you guys want it up.

His 0-death combos were avoidable, idk I was kinda surprised he fell into the entire string. Like, worst case scenario you can SDI Uair, Utilt, and even the Bair if you don't airdodge in time to avoid the rest of it.
 

Clai

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Ankoku: Do you think it was smart for Korn to keep approaching with a stock lead? I'm not saying he should have RAN or anything, but cmon he could have waited for Kirby to come and try to bair/attack before he did anything. Instead, he rushed ahead and lost it.
It depends on the circumstances. If a player has a lot of momentum and can force the other player into perilous situations by constantly applying offensive pressure, then yes, approaching while having a lead is a smart idea. Once you have momentum, it's very unwise to suddenly go defensive and give the opponent the time to recover his state of mind and prepare a way to come back. It's okay to be riskier when you have a stock lead for the purposes of racking up damage and extending the lead further because the worst case scenario is you lose your stock, but have a percentage lead to sit back and play a defensive game.

Comebacks (except if the opponent is doing something miraculously dumb) are great in the sense that it shows that the player isn't willing to give up when he's down and he has the tools to reverse the odds and win the match. It may not be up to the perfect standards, but it gives players someone to look up to, and having something like that is much more worthwhile than waiting for a perfect video that may never come up.
 
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