the top players

[skyheart]

rofl slikwicture lawolawawoawlawoawlawoawl

 

[Twin_A]

Amsah, no offense, im pretty convinced that to an extent mango was sandbagging at Genesis the same way he did at pound 3. So that first set Armada took off mango, lets just say mango wasnt worried for a second.
2. Mango someone who has played both armada and M2k has said that M2k is better. I think thats more validation than two tourny results that came down to 1 stock

Wait what!? I personally like M2K more but you're saying that someones opinion is more valid than two major tourney results (with no more mutually attended tourneys)!? Hahahaha wow bro. I know Mango is well respected, but an opinion is just that.

 

[t3h Icy]

Ranking players doesn't work except for very few.

It's like this guys:

S Tier

Amsah
Armada
Hungrybox
Mango
Mew2King

A Tier

Darkrain
DaShizWiz
Dr.PP
Hax
JMan
Lucky
SilentSpectre
Zhu

B Tier

Cactuar
Darc
Hugs
Kage
Lovage
OverTriforce
Scar
Tope
Zgetto

C Tier

Adam
Axe
HMW
Kirbykaze
Lord HDL
Raynex
Remen
Unknown522
Vwins

? Tier

Calle W
Dark
Ghost
Javi
Star
Twin

And of course with more people, and certain spots debatable.

*Flameshields*

 

[Animal]

two tourny results that literally came down to 1 stock aka M2k choking. So 2 me that hardly means anything. Ya when you ask scrubs who do they think is better it is, but when you ask the best player to play the game, and has personally played both players, what better judge can there be?

 

[t3h Icy]

two tourny results that literally came down to 1 stock aka M2k choking. So 2 me that hardly means anything. Ya when you ask scrubs who do they think is better it is, but when you ask the best player to play the game, and has personally played both players, what better judge can there be?

Lol Mangofanboyism.

Because Mango isn't biased at all right? And choking isn't exactly an excuse for losing. No johns, ya know?

 

[AnDaLe]

this thread is soo interesting.

and btw t3h icy, where is lambchops in yur tierlist?

 

[Mike G]

lol @ this thread delivering.

I love it

 

[Incronaut]

Lol Mangofanboyism.

Because Mango isn't biased at all right? And choking isn't exactly an excuse for losing. No johns, ya know?

I'm going to have to agree with icy here... choking is NOT an excuse for losing... results are where it's at, if you "slip up," then that's that... top players are respected for their consistency (and obviously many many other things). also, mango's opinion may mean more than my opinion or whatever, but with results being as they are, it's hard to argue otherwise... m2k just has to beat them, simple as that.

also, to say that mango wasnt worried for a second in genesis i think is a little misleading... armada brought it down to the last stock of victory before mango took the momentum and made the amazing comeback. maybe he was sandbagging until then, i dunno, but i would think armada is good enough that mango had SOME worries going on (given mango doesnt worry about much to begin with, so i guess its sorta a moot argument haha)

btw, top 3:
Zhu
Axe
Hbox

/nobiasbuttherereallyis

 

[Lovage]

Ranking players doesn't work except for very few.

It's like this guys:

S Tier

Amsah
Armada
Hungrybox
Mango
Mew2King

A Tier

Darkrain
DaShizWiz
Dr.PP
Hax
JMan
Lucky
SilentSpectre
Zhu

B Tier

Cactuar
Darc
Hugs
Kage
Lovage
OverTriforce
Scar
Tope
Zgetto

C Tier

Adam
Axe
HMW
Kirbykaze
Lord HDL
Raynex
Remen
Unknown522
Vwins

? Tier

Calle W
Dark
Ghost
Javi
Star
Twin

And of course with more people, and certain spots debatable.

*Flameshields*

hell ya canada sux

fantastic list icy

 

[turnip tosser]

two tourny results that literally came down to 1 stock aka M2k choking. So 2 me that hardly means anything. Ya when you ask scrubs who do they think is better it is, but when you ask the best player to play the game, and has personally played both players, what better judge can there be?

but he beat him in tourney you cant just deny that. hes alteast on level with m2k. i mean we play this game to win once you get at a certain level. so in tourney you really dont have any excuse since we all are there to play to win.

 

[Zephynazo]

Amsah, no offense, im pretty convinced that to an extent mango was sandbagging at Genesis the same way he did at pound 3. So that first set Armada took off mango, lets just say mango wasnt worried for a second.
2. Mango someone who has played both armada and M2k has said that M2k is better. I think thats more validation than two tourny results that came down to 1 stock

I can't belive u actually said that, cuz i heard some different stories about what happend at Genesis. I belvie i heard something like Mango was crying because he thought he would lose GF to Armada, so please don't come here saying that he was sandbagging until the bitter end.

Also keep in mind Armada was literally one hit away from knocking out Mango in two sets at Genesis. Yeah that's right, give the guy a break alrdy.
1. So let's just say ur the biggest Mango fanboy here also, shall we?

2. Get ur facts straight son, Armada beat him twice (in huge tournies, don't care if it was down to last stock or not), it doesn't matter what Mang0 says, it's just his opinion anyway.

 

[Pi]

I wanna be the very best
Like no one ever was

 

[Nihonjin]

Amsah, no offense, im pretty convinced that to an extent mango was sandbagging at Genesis the same way he did at pound 3. So that first set Armada took off mango, lets just say mango wasnt worried for a second.

Really? How about the first setin the GF where he was 1 hit away of losing the tournament? He wasn't sandbagging.

2. Mango someone who has played both armada and M2k has said that M2k is better. I think thats more validation than two tourny results that came down to 1 stock[/QUOTE]

Golly gee wilikers I hadn't thought of if like that..:embarrass
Mango (Mr.American Bias, who claims America > Everyone at everything) says M2k is better so it must be true.

Spoiler

I wouldn't even be surprised if he doesn't believe it himself but simply said it to boost M2ks confidence or because he isn't really sure but wants M2k to be better..

two tourny results that literally came down to 1 stock aka M2k choking. So 2 me that hardly means anything. Ya when you ask scrubs who do they think is better it is, but when you ask the best player to play the game, and has personally played both players, what better judge can there be?

I've played them both and I think they're about even.

Spoiler

But what do I know, I'm not Mango right? >.>

Either way though, Armada beat him twice so you can't really argue with that.

Mango can strip naked and do a rain dance while singing of M2k's supposed superiority for all I care but it won't change a thing.

what better judge can there be?

One that's not biased.

Besides, you can never really take one persons opinion to be fact when it comes to these things. Mango might personally have a harder time with M2k for whatever reasons, but that doesn't necessarily mean he's better. You don't just play Mango you know..?

 

[Dr_Strangelove]

I wanna be the very best
Like no one ever was

TO CATCH THEM IS MY REAL TEST
TO TRAIN THEM IS MY CAUSE

dun dun DUN

 

[Nihonjin]

TO CATCH THEM IS MY REAL TEST
TO TRAIN THEM IS MY CAUSE

dun dun DUN

I will travel across this land
searching far and wide
:embarrass

 

[DJRome]

in melee the better player does not always win. there are far too many variables to set certainties like that.

as a series of exchanges, we all know that sometimes, luck takes over a match.

as annoying as it sometimes is, the matchup % are important to consider. for example, if m2k is better than armada and makes the matchup 80-20, armada can win 20% of the time in a match. to win a set he needs:

win win
win lose win
lose win win

which nets 20%*20%, 20%*80%*20%, and 80%*20%*20*, which totals to 10.4%. so given that the better player wins 80% of matches, armada still wins 10% of the time that set. obvious this is not accurate conjecture, but let's not ignore the "upset" sets that have happened to various people over the course of the past year. armada has also come at tournaments twice and amsah once so it is hard to compare since they have relatively little data

 

[Aldwyn McCloud]

This thread just doesn't make any sense.. I'm the best for obvious reasons..

I mean come on.. I'm like Zoo but Italian, what else do you want? <3

 

[Zephynazo]

in melee the better player does not always win.

Yes, the better players mostly do win.

armada has also come at tournaments twice and amsah once so it is hard to compare since they have relatively little data

But the times they went to tournaments in America, they (freakin) ***** USA (more or less), and that's the only avaliable data u have, so no johns, really.

 

[Dr_Strangelove]

in melee the better player does not always win. there are far too many variables to set certainties like that.

as a series of exchanges, we all know that sometimes, luck takes over a match.

as annoying as it sometimes is, the matchup % are important to consider. for example, if m2k is better than armada and makes the matchup 80-20, armada can win 20% of the time in a match. to win a set he needs:

win win
win lose win
lose win win

which nets 20%*20%, 20%*80%*20%, and 80%*20%*20*, which totals to 10.4%. so given that the better player wins 80% of matches, armada still wins 10% of the time that set. obvious this is not accurate conjecture, but let's not ignore the "upset" sets that have happened to various people over the course of the past year. armada has also come at tournaments twice and amsah once so it is hard to compare since they have relatively little data

If someone wins a set they win more matches and therefore play better.
What is so hard to understand about that? I mean seriously, what in gods name are you blathering about?

 

[DJRome]

then you're foolish enough to believe better play always wins.

 

[Dr_Strangelove]

then you're foolish enough to believe better play always wins.

That's a bull**** argument and you know it. If I were to play against m2k or armada in a tournament set I would lose 100% of the time. You're more than welcome to try to do some sort of irrelevant and pointless calculation to try and prove me wrong.

If someone beats you in 2 seperate tournament sets in 2 different tournaments, and places higher than you in both of them, said person is better than you, and you need to deal with it or get better.

EDIT: I'm hoping M2K will do the latter, as I would love to see this game evolve further.

 

[DJRome]

you do realize the skill gap is widely different between u and m2k, right? i mean, if i were to give you an even .0001% chance, do that over a set and then you'll see that it is close to 100% loss. but armada m2k is not that different.

i mean do you not believe that two players A and B of close but different skill levels can beat each other? then such a statistic exists and a possibility for the lesser player to win exists as well. so no, your logic fails

 

[Blue_Lightning]

I'm having deep trouble understanding your arguement to begin with

"two players A and B of close but different skill levels"

Excuse me, what?

 

[DJRome]

im saying if player a has a (bear with the usage for clarity) power level of 1000 and player b has one of 1100, given the matchup and skill difference, create a % win rate for a single game. and use that to determine the % that player a will win such a set.

dr strangelogic here is suggesting if a player a beats player b twice, he cannot be lower in power level. that is, he refuses the statistic that in whatever % of the time a worse player can win a set twice. granted, that chance is low, but he does not acknowledge it.

 

[Zephynazo]

DJ Rome... Torunament results speak for themself. No need to bring mathemathics in here.

Just accept the fact that Armada has proven himself to be the better player than M2K so far, and wait for the next up and coming tournies to decide the rest.

 

[Dr_Strangelove]

im saying if player a has a (bear with the usage for clarity) power level of 1000 and player b has one of 1100, given the matchup and skill difference, create a % win rate for a single game. and use that to determine the % that player a will win such a set.

dr strangelogic here is suggesting if a player a beats player b twice, he cannot be lower in power level. that is, he refuses the statistic that in whatever % of the time a worse player can win a set twice. granted, that chance is low, but he does not acknowledge it.

I base my opinions on facts, you try to make facts out of opinions.

 

[DJRome]

im not saying armada isn't better than m2k. but you're entirely ignoring that fact that m2k could be better than armada and still lose 2 sets. that's all im saying.

 

[Dark Sonic]

I think what DJRome is trying to say (and quite frankly failing at) is that two tournament sets is hardly sufficient evidence to conclude that one player is better than the other, which I think most people will agree with. Saying that M2K is better than Armada does not have any basis either mind you. (if that's what you think he's implying)


As for his previous argument of "the better player does not always win"....it's a sound argument but he's not good at explaining things.

Let's say that you and a fellow crewmate (who's fairly close in skill level) fight each other 100 times or so. Now, assuming you're close in skill level (though one is obviously better) it's safe to assume that the lesser player will still be able to take some matches off of the better player right? Let's say they win 35/100 matches.


Now let's say that the sets went something like this. The more skilled player is player A:

Player A win: Player A win: 15
Player A win: Player B win: Player A win: 15
Player B win: Player A win: Player B win: 5
Player B win: Player B win: 5

It's quite obvious who the better player is right? Player A won 65/100 matches after all. That's a significant majority.

Now, these are just random numbers to fit the model of course (and yes, they do add up to 100 matches). But does this seem that unreasonable of two players of close skill? Is it unreasonable that out of 40 sets, the lesser player might win a couple of them? Player B only won 10 sets in this combination (which is actually only 1/4 sets played. Despite his over 1/3 match win ratio), but that's still WINNING SETS AGAINST A PLAYER BETTER THAN YOU.


That's why making conclusions with only small amounts of data is unreliable.

My 2 cents

 

[DJRome]

thanks bro. im inarticulate

 

[Nihonjin]

[edit]
Meh nvm...

 

[Animal]

I agree that the only way M2k can prove to the masses of the people that he is better than Armada is obviously placing higher or beating him. I realize and acknowledge that Armada did this twice. However those TWO sets they had together were so close literally a coin toss that to say ones better than the other based off that is extremely debatable.

About the Mango comment, obviously it is opinion. i'm not dumb people. However, i think we can agree that certain peoples opinion weigh more heavily than others. For example, Amsah giving sheik advice and me giving sheik advice who are you going to listen to? That being said, For a player WHO KNOWS what it takes to be the best and has seen both players, his answer is the most credible opinion that we can accept. If we want to base this off HISTORY than yes armada would be seen as better. However History doesn't show how equal those sets were, and how painstakingly close they were

About Mango sandbagging, i never said he sandbagged Grand Finals although i wouldnt be suprised if he didnt try as hard untill it was almost too late. But he definitely didnt try when he got knocked into losers.

Also Armada is by far my favorite peach to play the game, mikael being second =). Armada is without a doubt on m2k level of play, and im not trying to disrespect him.

 

[DJRome]

i think pc chris described it well when asked in rom interviews about his predictions. it really is coin tosses. i mean, look at all sorts of games where prediction or "reading" is key. there will be luck involved. not to say they only won because of luck but that the result doesn't reflect an absolute is all

 

[Karibola]

I don't think mango's opinion should be the best source as he is very biased. He'll tell you that Hbox is the worst player in the world.

 

[Lixivium]

I think it's really amazing how much the top Melee players parallel tennis:

Ken = Pete Sampras
PC = Andre Agassi
M2K = Roger Federer
KDJ = Rafael Nadal
Mango = What Nadal was going to be before his knees went out

It's not just the results that are similar but the chronological order they played out

 

[DJRome]

i think pc is much more liked than agassi % wise

 

[JesiahTEG]

@ Armada - It gets really annoying to hear people consider me 5th when I think I'm better than that. I do think I could do better if I didn't choke (and I think I choked vs you the first and 3rd games at pound4, especially the 1st most of the entire last stock), and I do think I could do better if I didn't do that and only focused on this game and if Brawl didn't come out. I know these are johns but it's too annoying to have everyone say that without speaking my mind once. I respect you a lot, don't get the wrong idea, but I dislike what people say about me so often. In the past, when I beat PC in a million sets in 07 I was not considered better for quite a while, and then he beats me once at OC3 and half the people consider him better. I rank higher than KDJ for quite a while and do a lot, then he beats me the most recent set and half the people consider him better. I beat people Hbox beats and loses to for quite a while then barely lose to him twice and suddenly he's better (especially annoying is the way I lost when I think I shouldn't have). You beat me in a close set and suddenly you're better. Amsah ranks higher than me suddenly he's better and the best Sheik also. It just feels really unfair and I wanted to say something about it because I feel that on a good day I am better than 5th best.

With all the amount of time I put into the game, getting good with all the characters I did for no reason, not setting on a main at all, and still being able to be dominant with a lot of characters, I think I do not get the respect I should by other people

Armada you are one of my favorite smashers ever, please do not get the wrong idea about what I said. I am just tired of being so disrespected by everyone so often. People have done that to me for years and it really hurts me to hear that. Before brawl came out all i wanted was to be the best, then Mango beats me once at pound3 and suddenly he's the best. At that time period, I considered myself better, and I'm pretty sure AT that time period I was better even though I lost, and I think this because 1) I lost because of forward Bing off and could have won the set and 2) everyone he beat I beat by more. So I think I was better at that time period, but then he proved he was better at tourneys following that.

Anyway I just wanted to speak my mind. It's not really that important to me anymore like it was before, but I just wanted to say something because I feel discredited too often no matter what I do and I'm just tired of hearing it. Hearing that stuff hurts and makes me not want to play. Pound4 was probably better than I'll be in the future anyway.

Yo, here's the real deal. You were quite possibly the greatest Melee player ever when you were in your prime. (07) You were unbelievable and in the close running for the top player of ALL TIME. (I think Ken and PC and Mang0 and you are all in the running)

Then you started playing Brawl and you just started becoming way worse at Melee. Like, I watch so many of your tech errors and it just makes at least me sad to see you play now compared to how good you used to be.

Dude, you can't play Brawl and Melee at the same time and expect to be godlike at both. It's just too hard.

 

[JesiahTEG]

Ranking players doesn't work except for very few.

It's like this guys:

S Tier

Amsah
Armada
Hungrybox
Mango
Mew2King

A Tier

Darkrain
DaShizWiz
Dr.PP
Hax
JMan
Lucky
SilentSpectre
Zhu

B Tier

Cactuar
Darc
Hugs
Kage
Lovage
OverTriforce
Scar
Tope
Zgetto

C Tier

Adam
Axe
HMW
Kirbykaze
Lord HDL
Raynex
Remen
Unknown522
Vwins

? Tier

Calle W
Dark
Ghost
Javi
Star
Twin

And of course with more people, and certain spots debatable.

*Flameshields*

also pretty accurate besides the fact that mango is one tier ahead of amsah armada hungrybox and m2k

 

[Animal]

get dark outta there. replace with colbol

 

[tw1n]

I approve of DJ Rome's and Dark Sonics use of statistics and mathematical logic to argue their side. It actually makes perfect sense.

I still think Armada and M2K are too close to determine whio is the superior. All the more reason why I'm excited for Apex =D

 

[strawhats]

Yo, here's the real deal. You were quite possibly the greatest Melee player ever when you were in your prime. (07) You were unbelievable and in the close running for the top player of ALL TIME. (I think Ken and PC and Mang0 and you are all in the running)

Then you started playing Brawl and you just started becoming way worse at Melee. Like, I watch so many of your tech errors and it just makes at least me sad to see you play now compared to how good you used to be.

Dude, you can't play Brawl and Melee at the same time and expect to be godlike at both. It's just too hard.

There's so muc truth in this post that it hurts. M2K is by far the best marth player that has ever lived. IMO, in his prime he was the best fox player, and he should've never gotten involved with Brawl. I truly believe that he would've been the greatest melee player of all time had he not played Brawl. (not hating on the game, but its the truth.)