The tier list V.3 discussion (What next?)

[Tenki]

@dj:
Why yes.

The new SBR seems to be handling insults pretty well, and they actually respond to posts, instead of spamming D-tilt and destroying our dash attack.

 

[ROOOOY!]

So this is what happens if someone with status talks to us like we're not pants on head ******** or in fact listens to us at all.

Sonic boards become nice. Cool :3

Meh, no one can be at blame for how the list turned out, it was just a god awful way of doing things, that's all.

I can't see Sonic ever improving though, he's near enough at max capacity in tournaments now (even though he's outdoing half the cast) and we're still being told to do better in tournies. I really can't share people's optimism for the future, certain bias members of the SBR can assure that.

But thanks, Thien.

=============

I WOULD LOVE TO BE TREATED LIKE A HUMAN, JUST ONCE!
*eats dog biscuit*

 

[da K.I.D.]

I wonder what would happen if yoshi or mario or samus got the (local) tourney results that we get.

 

[Vyse]

I think my initial problem with placing Sonic is things like his seeming lack of priority in a lot of things. I've said this before, he doesn't feel like a natural character to me, and no doubt to a lot of people. To really see what Sonic is made of, it's difficult to figure any of it out yourself. To me, Falcon feels much easier to handle than Sonic, but the fact is that Sonic can indeed be played better, given the right player who knows the right amount about playing Sonic.

I can admit that I was wrong in my assessment (You guys clearly showing me the error in my thinking with projectiles), and I can say after watching LuCKLess (or however it's formatted), that I want to invest more time into maining Sonic (Like I've always wanted to).

 

[Browny]

vyse needs wifi imo

 

[Tenki]

maining Sonic (Like I've always wanted to).

oshi-

Sampan SuperAsianChick283 and Vyse.

can you imagine if like, SBR was arguing against SFR as to why Sonic was mid-tier in their xth tier list?

It makes me cringe already.

 

[Vyse]

Shhhhh...

Also wifi is wifail.
Mine is so terrrrrrible it's not funny (Crappy internet connection).

 

[Le_THieN]

what cam said...

i just wish there was a better way to do things as opposed to having to just say.

this is a bad way to do it but its the best we have and its better than every other option.

i wish there was a method that could just be said.. "hey, this works!"

Well, with a game this young we have to start somewhere; where else is better than starting with the characters that we know are great and work our way down? That's generally how it works in every other fighting game analysis I've ever participated in, anyway. As it has already been mentioned, the lower tiers will gradually correct itself over time (assuming the representation becomes more consistent on a national level). Unfortunately, it's a very imprecise and glacial science, so you'll have to bear with us in the coming months as we take a closer look at lower-tiered characters (which I will make sure to push as a priority).

Le THieN, thanks for helping the other members of this subforum out with the entire Tier List fiasco, I appreciate it, and I'm sure (most, if not all of them) they do too.

You're welcome. Glad I could assuage the situation a little bit. How will the SBR be ever respected as an authority on all things Smash-related when we have a small sect of people dedicated to hating us? =)

 

[Napilopez]

As a matter of fact, I was telling Hylian how I played Sonic prior to our match at Tomball Monthly #1. I gave him a simple and quick statement of how I was going to play, if he were to go Ice Climbers.

I just told him I wouldn't get grabbed.

Oh Snap.

Are you named Espy after the pokemon? Because you know... Espeon is psychic, and you seem to have been pretty psychic recently, what with predicting your non grabification, and predicting that truck's arrival when you got stuck lolz.

 

[Espy Rose]

Oh Snap.

Are you named Espy after the pokemon? Because you know... Espeon is psychic, and you seem to have been pretty psychic recently, what with predicting your non grabification, and predicting that truck's arrival when you got stuck lolz.

Espy sounded awesome, and I love cats.
Espeon is very feline-esque, and one of my favorite Pokemon (second ONLY to Zangoose [who is also of a feline quality]).

I guess you could say that.

Oh, and Napz:

Espy-Verb:
To catch sight of; to perceive with the eyes; to discover, as a distant object partly concealed, or not obvious to notice; to see at a glance; to discern unexpectedly; to spy; as, to espy land; to espy a man in a crowd.

It's awesome. I didn't know my name was an actual word.

-----

Off topic much, yes, but definately necessary.
And yes, me summoning the 18-wheeler truck after the other car failed was too good. It's as if I called upon the powers of the steak god herself.

 

[da K.I.D.]

herself...

steak god is a she.

thats why she created steak and BJ day

 

[Espy Rose]

herself...

steak god is a she.

thats why she created steak and BJ day

I stand corrected. Well played KID, I'll fix that ASAP.

How will the SBR be ever respected as an authority on all things Smash-related when we have a small sect of people dedicated to hating us? =)

I don't know why, but I had a pretty **** good laugh at this...

 

[ShadowLink84]

You're welcome. Glad I could assuage the situation a little bit. How will the SBR be ever respected as an authority on all things Smash-related when we have a small sect of people dedicated to hating us? =)

Awww dont say that, we love you, its just very harsh, hard core, strong love.
>_>

 

[Camalange]

Awww dont say that, we love you, its just very harsh, hard core, strong love.
>_>

lol, that's how we love everything.

 

[JayBee]

except steak. that's a higher order of love.

 

[memphischains]

Um, If I may. To go back a little...

I talked to both Azen and ChuDat about sonic (Chillin was there too and actually Chosen was the one who brought him up) but it seems none of them had any interest in Sonic. Both Chu and Azen thought he was a fun character, but I don't think they would consider him playing seriously.

Chu says he quits brawl every two weeks, I don't really know his deal. He is a mad chill guy though. They all were.

But yeah, didn't look like anyone from H2YL had any interest.

 

[ShadowLink84]

It makes sense Sonic is low tier so why bother? They won't win money that way.

 

[Jim Morrison]

This probably has been the most intellegent discussion on the Sonic boards... EVUR. And I was banhammered.

 

[Orange_Soda_Man]

The new SBR seems to be handling insults pretty well, and they actually respond to posts, instead of spamming D-tilt and destroying our dash attack.

I very well might sig this.

While Sonic's tier placing might* be too low (*is), at least he's going in the right direction =/
Rankings list is where it's at, anyways.

 

[memphischains]

i'm going to sig that **** yeah.

i REALLY want to ****ing talk to anther now, because he is Sonic's only rep kinda sorta.

i think he falls more with Pika, but what do i know

 

[Super_Sonic8677]

PLayed Anther the other day on AiB. His Sonic is pretty beastly. But yeah he's a Pika main.

I could only get him into his last stock at best. I felt like a total noob at the game by the time I was done T_T.

10 burnt steaks

 

[Jim Morrison]

Anthers Sonic is somewhat better me. I usually get him to his last stock, but the he has about 30% and I die lal.

 

[Browny]

This probably has been the most intellegent discussion on the Sonic boards... EVUR. And I was banhammered.

OH GEE I WONDER WHY...



you set yourself up beautifully for that one lol

 

[Napilopez]

+1 Steak for dj

I wanna play Anther's Sonic, although its kinda pointless in terms of evaluation cuz Sonic is my best char by far, and I strongly dislike/fail at Sonic ditto's -_-.

EDIT: We should nominate Le_THieN for something. XD. SBR member with the greatest calming down Sonic mains powers?

 

[Kinzer]

Thien has Hedgehog tranquilizers.

Fear him, for he will gun you down.

 

[memphischains]

i just want to kind of get an idea of what the sbr thinks of sonic, and some things anther could bring up to kinda fill them in.

i never disliked the sbr until they decided to ignore us as a community. yes, we are a bunch of insane fanboy spammers but thats like not hiring a fat ***** or a ******.

hopefully sir anther and said representation can change and he can become a face for us and vice versa for the sbr

 

[SonicX580]

i just want to kind of get an idea of what the sbr thinks of sonic, and some things anther could bring up to kinda fill them in.

i never disliked the sbr until they decided to ignore us as a community. yes, we are a bunch of insane fanboy spammers but thats like not hiring a fat ***** or a ******.

hopefully sir anther and said representation can change and he can become a face for us and vice versa for the sbr

Isn't it obvious? SBR doesn't like Sonic he's not feared like MK so they don't consider him also it could be because we caused trouble to them about Spam and other stuff but I might be wrong.

 

[Tenki]

You kind of missed it but they did admit they misevaluated some things.

vyse is in SBR-B and he apparently greatly underestimated Sonic's ability to get through projectiles. SamPan has apparently doesn't necessarily support the kind of stuff from the WCD. As for the two X-names, I have no idea what their real opinion is, but I haven't heard so much from the people that pissed you guys off so much.

I'm not really even sure who's in it now, and being colorblind I can't tell the difference between TO's and SBR-B just from looking, unless they're both on the same page.

 

[SonicLucario]

At least he's higher than he used to be. Still too low though :/

Plus 7th from the bottom is cooler because 7 > 5 in steakness

 

[Browny]

where did lethien go, I still got all those questions from before

and a new one.

at the time of making, was the SBR under the impression (started by 3dree5, no name searching allowed) that the only reason sonic was placing high in the rankings thread was because the sheer amount of sonics in tournaments? Up until jan 5 not a single sbrb member actually contested my proof that sonic is actually placing LESS often than the vast majority of mid tier or higher characters, and a few actually agreed with 3dree5's horrible maths.

 

[Anther]

He's gonna move up every tier list. He's got so much negative stigma on him that it'll take a while before he's appreciated as a whole, especially with all the talented sonic players popping up as brawl's metagame increases. He seems to be getting one of the bigger boosts as game knowledge goes up.
Especially since so much of his game capitalizes on punishing brawl mechanics. =].

 

[Boxob.]

Anther, wifi?

 

[Le_THieN]

where did lethien go, I still got all those questions from before

I'm confused; I thought I answered most of them. What else wasn't covered?

at the time of making, was the SBR under the impression (started by 3dree5, no name searching allowed) that the only reason sonic was placing high in the rankings thread was because the sheer amount of sonics in tournaments? Up until jan 5 not a single sbrb member actually contested my proof that sonic is actually placing LESS often than the vast majority of mid tier or higher characters, and a few actually agreed with 3dree5's horrible maths.

We honestly didn't discuss Sonic that extensively. Every character was brought up at least once between the period that all the new SBR members were inducted (myself included) and the deadline of our votes, and when Sonic came up, we more or less approached the ambiguity surrounding the lower-tiered characters in the same way: we considered whether or not they had notable representation at major events, and then we moved to match-ups and brief move set evaluations as a last ditch effort. Ankoku's list was never taken into consideration due to its unreliability as far as concrete data went.

As far as the "lots of Sonic mains enter tournaments," I think the assumption is slightly exaggerated, although I do see a fair share of Sonics out and about on the competitive scene (not ****ting you, I have seen at least three or four in every tournament I've been to since Brawl started); all of them were terrible. Again, my set against Mr. 3000 went a long way toward forcing me to acknowledge that there is some competitive merit behind Sonic's play-style, but it's also worth mentioning that this doesn't change the fact that, comparatively, he's just not that great of a character all-around.

And did you mean to say that you had proof that Sonic was placing more frequently than other mid-to-high-tier characters, or less frequently? This kind of confused me.

Pee Es: I wholeheartedly accept my nomination as the hedgehog tamer. =)

 

[Browny]

He's placing less often than characters with similar amounts of total points, which proves the tournaments that Sonic places top 8 at, on average, either have more entrants, larger entry fee, higher placings (as in more 1sts, top 2) or any combination of these when compared to the placements of the entire cast. Only peach and i think Pikachu have a higher points/placing ratio.

Falcons point/placing ratio is through the roof but that doesnt count coz everyone knows that is skewed by one placing lol

for my other questions

^^click that

although only Q2 is worth answering, Q3 was just stupidity / blatant trollling attempt by one sbrb member and Q4 was the same as 1 effectively

 

[Le_THieN]

He's placing less often than characters with similar amounts of total points, which proves the tournaments that Sonic places top 8 at, on average, either have more entrants, larger entry fee, higher placings (as in more 1sts, top 2) or any combination of these.

Oh, I see what you mean. Like I mentioned before, no one is disputing that Sonic can and has placed Top 8 or higher, but they have only been at the tournaments that all the active players on this board are participating in locally, and not necessarily the ones that generate noteworthy press (either due to the enormity of the actual tournament or the celebrity it attracts; both tend to go hand in hand). And whilst it's true that you guys are doing exceedingly well in your respective regions, it's not being taken into consideration because the majority of these events don't account for any "real competition." I'm not quote-unquoting that to be derogatory or to diminish the impact of the success of Sonic mains, but more so to underscore the reality of the situation: no one cares about these sorts of tournament results.

The thing I want to stress is that this is not a phenomenon restricted solely to Sonic players or even those who main any of the other lower-tiered characters. The simple fact of the matter is that unless you perform well with your dedicated main in areas of the country (or against vetted players) that the majority of people recognize as competitive, you are a relative nobody. I have heard of Sonic mains based on their notoriety - Mr. 3000, Anther, and Espy - but it takes more than three guys who occasionally doing well with a bad character to mobilize any sort of meaningful attention.

EDIT:

As far as justifying Sonic's placement underneath some of the other questionable low-tier characters, I can't really defend the outcome of the voting because:

• it wasn't unanimous
• I personally had Sonic a little bit higher than what is reflected on v2.0
• we essentially threw out tournament data when evaluating the lower tiers because the data was unreliable
• we looked at match-ups and (to a far lesser extent) move sets

No one - especially those of us in SBR - are saying that this is either right that this is definitely how the votes should have played out. We know there are inaccuracies and inconsistencies with the lower tiers, so I'm just going to go ahead and concede that we may have made a hasty call moving forth with the final votes when the lower tiers were so precarious. That's not necessarily saying that the system we applied was wrong, but just that we didn't know enough about certain characters to make a 100%, justifiable value judgment.

 

[Tenki]

As far as the "lots of Sonic mains enter tournaments," I think the assumption is slightly exaggerated, although I do see a fair share of Sonics out and about on the competitive scene (not ****ting you, I have seen at least three or four in every tournament I've been to since Brawl started); all of them were terrible.

lolol

considering how we only know of Espy and 3000 as TX Sonic mains, I don't think we count those people.

It sounds sort of elitist, but for the most part, we (and if you wish to disassociate, I) consider familiars and/or regulars to these boards, who read up on stuff and all that jazz as Sonic mains. While those people are probably fanboyx1-4 etc. If they went here and either read up on stuff or made a 'rate my sonic' thread, or heck, even played some of us on wifi for a bit, I'd almost guarantee they'd get alot better, and be less of a joke.

But from this group here, alot of us have problems showing up at tournaments, otherwise, the community would have a different impression of Sonic as a character XD

 

[Le_THieN]

lolol

considering how we only know of Espy and 3000 as TX Sonic mains, I don't think we count those people.

It sounds sort of elitist, but for the most part, we (and if you wish to disassociate, I) consider familiars and/or regulars to these boards, who read up on stuff and all that jazz as Sonic mains. While those people are probably fanboyx1-4 etc. If they went here and either read up on stuff or made a 'rate my sonic' thread, or heck, even played some of us on wifi for a bit, I'd almost guarantee they'd get alot better, and be less of a joke.

But from this group here, alot of us have problems showing up at tournaments, otherwise, the community would have a different impression of Sonic as a character XD

I'm not disputing this at all. Ninety-nine percent of Sonics I've faced off in tournament were terrible, but I also acknowledged that they probably weren't anybody of any sort of notoriety as well. All I'm saying is that I like to think that I'm a pretty level-headed guy, but seeing all these terrible Sonic players at every tournament still inadvertently influenced my impressions of the character up until a few weeks ago. But alas, this is what's happening: people see scrubby, no-name Sonic players at a local tournament, whoop the **** out of them, and assume Sonic just sucks.

You guys must be pretty resilient to put up with this sort of judgment call all the time. =)

 

[infomon]

Yeah, those are the ppl who post a new thread asking about the difference between side-B and down-B, like every week.

You guys must be pretty resilient to put up with this sort of judgment call all the time. =)

You have no idea

 

[Tenki]

These are Texas tournaments though, right?

I'm simply pointing out something I thought was interesting, seeing that, at least as far as the group here is concerned, we are pretty much the only Sonic mains out there. Really, we thought that 3000 was our only TX representation for a while, and because his only vids up til recently were from back April, we were convinced he was just a good player who didn't know anything about Sonic's tricks and stuff and sort of 'shunned' him as a Sonic main and categorized him as just a 'good player' (you know, kind of how Azen has a reputation with the Lucario community for being a good player, but not taking advantage of all of Lucario's character-specific options - at least, last I heard about that).

Finally, Puffball (Espy) showed up at some tourneys and some of the feedback from people really showed how little they knew about the kind of metagame we were developing here lol.

`.`;

As far as the group here at the Sonic boards is concerned, there are like, 3-4 of us per region, and at most, 2 in a state. Except for NY though, but that's understandable.

 

[Le_THieN]

These are Texas tournaments though, right?

I'm simply pointing out something I thought was interesting, seeing that, at least as far as the group here is concerned, we are pretty much the only Sonic mains out there. Really, we thought that 3000 was our only TX representation for a while, and because his only vids up til recently were from back April, we were convinced he was just a good player who didn't know anything about Sonic's tricks and stuff and sort of 'shunned' him as a Sonic main.

I didn't even know about the existence of Spin Dash canceling/Spin Charge feints (whatever the proper terminology is, I apologize) until OH SNAP! v4.0, and 3K was the one who introduced me to all these tricky, annoying, wonderful little mind-game devices throughout our set. It got so confusing at times that the only way for me to sort out what was going on was for me to run to the other side of the stage and force his advance with projectiles. I think it's safe to say that he's stepped up his game considerably since April.