The tier list V.3 discussion (What next?)

[Browny]

Thats the argument I get on my results on the australian rankings >_>

 

[Vyse]

Sonic for E tier!

=_=

 

[Camalange]

Sonic for E tier!

=_=

SEE!?

It sounds so fail. Don't give me this "Fun" Tier business, it's "Fail" Tier.

Although, I do enjoy the new phrase 'All aboard the SS Metaknight!"
lol

But now that I look at the list more, it's less confusing. It just SOUNDS dumb.

 

[Kinzer]

I would've really liked it if the tier list was arranged by Top-High-Mid-Low-Bot tier... why do people complain about things like High-Low or Mid-Mid, all they have to do is just look at that specific section of the tier... people are so lazy nowadays, and only complicate things by making NINE different tiers...

All aboard the S.S. Meta Knight... I can already see photoshops of it right now... it's lulzy.

 

[Boxob.]

****, I'll fight everyone in the SBR IRL, using Sonic's moveset.

Ever G-reg.

Is he even in the SBR? Lol.

 

[Vyse]

Indeed it is so.

 

[Browny]

This has been an interesting day at 'work'

lmao i get so worked up over this ****, most people i argue with are like 3-4 years younger than me. brawl is bad

etc

 

[da K.I.D.]

You guys should convince Azen to play Sonic. Give him 3 weeks and he will take first.

...Does that really even matter?

"Sawnik only won because Azen played him. The Tier list is about character potential, not player skill."

amidoinitrite?

no disrespect to the mod, but

OH SNAP!

he just got torched!!

****, I'll fight everyone in the SBR IRL, using Sonic's moveset.

Ever G-reg.

Is he even in the SBR? Lol.

no he isnt,
i would love to see you pull an ASC cancel to grab, in real life.

This has been an interesting day at 'work'

lmao i get so worked up over this ****, most people i argue with are like 3-4 years younger than me. brawl is bad

etc

how old are you

p.s. brawl is not bad, the people who play it are.

 

[SonicX580]

Well anyways I read everything and it seems very supicous that they made a lower tier but everyone like Roooy! and my predictation about Sonic was right he avoided the G tier list and when up to spots also I'am sure with in 6 months Sonic will go up more and I'll try to get to a tournament as soon as one is avaliable in my region somewhere that's not far but overall it's good to see that Sonic went up.

DJBrowny: You're right brawl is bad only novices think brawl is great (remember MK being broken?) also if brawl was on the tier list I think it will be G tier and then Captain Falcon would be the second worst (a little humor).

Meta Knight and Snake's Tier Placement: This only proves that Brawl is bad I understand MK getting his own tier but Snake getting his own tier list is odd and very supicous to me so anyone got any thoughts on this?

 

[Vyse]

Actually G-reg is in the SBR.

Whatchu talkin bout boi?

 

[Browny]

lmao X580 just keeps on getting better with his posts :D

brawl for Ganondorf tier!

btw im 20

 

[SonicX580]

lmao X580 just keeps on getting better with his posts :D

brawl for Ganondorf tier!

btw im 20

Thanks but I agree with what some of you said about SBR not putting Sonic higher for his tournament rankings but they did say potential which probably means in their minds that the character has to be easy to master in order to move up in the tier list.

 

[JayBee]

if sonic went any lower i'd quit brawl. im not even joking about that.

 

[SonicX580]

if sonic went any lower i'd quit brawl. im not even joking about that.

Me to 75% percent of my videogame time goes to MKW if Sonic manges to go even 1 spot lower I will either retire or quit.

 

[JayBee]

its just ignoarant opinion. im not even gonna respect that list. it don exits. and was it even needed to make up some new voting system? really? what for, to prove that u actually care? im confused, because what im gathering from posts there was that this list is more flawed than before.

 

[Vyse]

The voting system used is not new.

It actually worked extremely well for the Melee tier list.

 

[SonicX580]

its just ignoarant opinion. im not even gonna respect that list. it don exits. and was it even needed to make up some new voting system? really? what for, to prove that u actually care? im confused, because what im gathering from posts there was that this list is more flawed than before.

I'am getting sick of brawl broken moves charcaters it's just a huge mess anyways what do you think of my new avatar?

Vyse: Then how Come they didn't show us that in the first place when the first tier list came out?

 

[JayBee]

my bad. ..

 

[Browny]

Vyse why do I get the feeling you're the type of person who thinks Matty Hayden should still be in the Australian team...

**** i just realised how much of an awesome metaphor that is. is it even a metaphor? double entendre? idk I finish work now yay hometime

 

[Vyse]

@SonicX580:
The first tier list didn't use that system. This is the second time this style of voting system has been used. The first time was with the Final Melee Tier List.

It worked very well with Melee (I'm guessing) because the SBR had a solid consensus on where characters should be.

Given that Brawl has more characters and is a game we don't know nearly as much about (seeing as the metagame and data is only almost a year old) we had to expect results to come out like this. I could go into a lot of detail about why the tier list has come out the way it has, but I don't want to get my rear booted by the SBR ruling party for talking about what should be confidential.

This list is more or less a forced consensus I think. I don't know how else to describe it really.

 

[Kinzer]

if sonic went any lower i'd quit brawl. im not even joking about that.

I have nothing better to do, but if Sonic got lower I would just flame until I get perma-banned or something. Sonic at this point in the metagame has nowhere to go but up.

Me to 75% percent of my videogame time goes to MKW if Sonic manges to go even 1 spot lower I will either retire or quit.

You got to keep trying, unless you really hate Brawl that much, then that's understandable.

The voting system used is not new.

It actually worked extremely well for the Melee tier list.

But Melee =/= Barlw! D:

I'am getting sick of brawl broken moves charcaters it's just a huge mess anyways what do you think of my new avatar?

Vyse: Then how Come they didn't show us that in the first place when the first tier list came out?

We just need to find a tech that makes Sonic broken in the good kind of way... btw it's okay.

I kind of liked the old tier list better... at least it was more or less accurate when it was made. At least they got the part about Sonic going up right here. I am still in shock as to how any of the people in the false SBR thought that Samus was better than Sonic, but then again that whole list is full of bias... wanna know how? Go lurk the Samus boards, they have at least two elitists there... they're the only ones keeping Samus this far in Brawl right now, there is little hope for the bounty-hunter right now.

Compare that to the closest thing Sonic boards have about a false SBR representative is either Xiivi/Tenki. We ain't got @#$% going for us except tourney results and Steak.

 

[SonicX580]

@SonicX580:
The first tier list didn't use that system. This is the second time this style of voting system has been used. The first time was with the Final Melee Tier List.

It worked very well with Melee (I'm guessing) because the SBR had a solid consensus on where characters should be.

Given that Brawl has more characters and is a game we don't know nearly as much about (seeing as the metagame and data is only almost a year old) we had to expect results to come out like this. I could go into a lot of detail about why the tier list has come out the way it has, but I don't want to get my rear booted by the SBR ruling party for talking about what should be confidential.

This list is more or less a forced consensus I think. I don't know how else to describe it really.

Let me guess SBR compares all of the files and data presented through tournaments and techs and then you guys do a huge debate on who on the goes on the list then after months of gathering and disscusing SBR posts it right?

I have nothing better to do, but if Sonic got lower I would just flame until I get perma-banned or something. Sonic at this point in the metagame has nowhere to go but up.



You got to keep trying, unless you really hate Brawl that much, then that's understandable.



But Melee =/= Barlw! D:



We just need to find a tech that makes Sonic broken in the good kind of way... btw it's okay.

I kind of liked the old tier list better... at least it was more or less accurate when it was made. At least they got the part about Sonic going up right here. I am still in shock as to how any of the people in the false SBR thought that Samus was better than Sonic, but then again that whole list is full of bias... wanna know how? Go lurk the Samus boards, they have at least two elitists there... they're the only ones keeping Samus this far in Brawl right now, there is little hope for the bounty-hunter right now.

Compare that to the closest thing Sonic boards have about a false SBR representative is either Xiivi/Tenki. We ain't got @#$% going for us except tourney results and Steak.

I already have like 2 techs that makes over 20% I just want to brawl real people.

 

[Vyse]

Also, give this a read you guys.

To everyone who is upset at the revisions made with v2.0 of the Brawl Tier List:

Level with me for a second and try to put a couple of things into perspective. I think it's fair to say that the circumstances surrounding the current competitive climate of Brawl are drastically different than it was for Melee during the game's first year or so. The meta-game of Brawl has been indubitably subject to a great deal more scrutiny (and, therefore, criticism) by just about everyone; and that in turn exerts significantly more pressure those of us in the SBR-B to try to paint the most accurate picture possible as far as a tier list goes while pleasing everyone at the same time.

As a few of you may have already noted, this is an outrageous and unreasonable notion, as at least one person has complained about the placement of every character on the list. Due to this fact, I can confidently say that the collective intent of members behind the SBR-B has and never will be to please the masses and cave into groupthink – it will be to illustrate what top-level players and renowned tournament organizers alike believe to be a portrait of what the current competitive landscape mostly resembles at the time of the tier list update.

We are barely ten months into the lifespan of Brawl and are already on our second tier list (which is, by the way, unheard of), and I can't help but feel that we've only begun to scratch the surface. Much has been discovered about the game in such a short amount of time, but it's going to take months more in order to sift through this barrage of data and knowledge and make sense of it.

For those of you championing the use of characters presently shackled to the lower tiers: we hear your voices and many of us fully recognize that your predictions for your respective characters to (drastically) improve over time are not forecasts that go ignored. However, the fact of the matter is that showing glimmers of potentially making longer strides sometime down the road is simply not enough to validate the changes in tier list placement that you all seek. Underrepresentation in major tournaments isn't a deal-breaker, but it certainly doesn't help the case of these characters, either.

Don't get me wrong – I'm not happy with the placements of some of the lower tier characters, either. The problem here is that I see a lot more people sitting around wasting time articulating their lament in the most childish ways, as opposed to actually going out to tournaments and just whooping some ***. Writing a dissertation about how sweet and potentially game-breaking Charizard's glide is tends not to compel others to your argument as effectively as just showing people why you think it's the most broken tactic in the game. Campaigning on behalf of the mobilization of bias of your respective character forums is great, but you guys are going to have to do a good deal more than talk tough.

Aside from that, we're doing everything in our power to educate ourselves about the circumstances surrounding every character and keeping a closer eye on these ever-evolving match-ups; but putting the entire SBR-B on blast and accusing us of varying levels of "fail" around the corner of every update isn't particularly constructive, and is more of reflection of your burgeoning bias and ignorance than it is of how inaccurate you think the tier list is.

I really don't think many of you are going to be prepared for the inevitable changes to come in the meta-game. It's hard to imagine that we will be playing Brawl the exact same way three years or even one year down the road. The trajectory of the meta-game is, however, determined by the players, and it is up to you all to guide how the game will look in the future. If we weren't confident in people's abilities to change the game at such a rate, there wouldn't be any good reason for us to legitimize updating the tier list twice a year.

So, tell me the truth. Is it really unfair for me to ask that you all make a concession or two and cut us a little slack? =)

On a slightly separate note, I happen to like denoting the new tiers by letters. Using buzz words like "God Tier," "Top Tier" and "Bottom Tier" are often misleading and come accompanied with many negative connotations. We have quickly debunked in the span of months that there are no truly unbeatable characters, nor are there characters who are so terrible and fundamentally flawed that they are unusable and will never, ever win any matches. Feel free to rename these tiers for the sake of your own personal comprehension (most of which I LOLed at because I don't know how this is more distinctly confusing than a rapid repetition of names like, "High-Top," "High-High," "Bottom-High," "High-Mid," "Mid-High," Low-High," Mid-Mid," "Top-High," "Bottom-Low" etc.), but this is what has been settled on.

 

[SonicX580]

Also, give this a read you guys.

I read it all so bascially that brawl is still new and SBR needs time to comprehand the data and then tell everyone what they discovered right?

 

[da K.I.D.]

you all should go read my massive wall of text as to why sonic is mid tier.

and never post about sonic in that thread again.

im serious. that post needs to stand on its own.
if you want me to edit something in though, i will

but i think i covered just about everything.

 

[SonicX580]

you all should go read my massive wall of text as to why sonic is mid tier.

and never post about sonic in that thread again.

im serious. that post needs to stand on its own.
if you want me to edit something in though, i will

but i think i covered just about everything.

I read the entire post good read K.I.D. but I think you forgot his grab game how he uses it for mindgames and goes through sheilds with dash grab also what about his ablity to rack up damage fast? other than that good job.

 

[da K.I.D.]

I basically just said he has a very good tech chase and left it at that...

I was trying not to just make a laundry list of reasons why hes good, cus any character can do that, and instead try to address the reasons so many people mistakenly think hes bad.

p.s. i think im going to save that post for my sBR application

 

[SonicX580]

I basically just said he has a very good tech chase and left it at that...

I was trying not to just make a laundry list of reasons why hes good, cus any character can do that, and instead try to address the reasons so many people mistakenly think hes bad.

p.s. i think im going to save that post for my sBR application

About the mindgames and the grabs? anyways good luck on you're SBR application hmm maybe I'll make a application (not sure...).

 

[Browny]

typical

lethien gives us a wall of text and uses a whole lot of meaningless dribble to give the impression that there was any though applied to thier decisions while managing to completely avoid confronting the main issue with the list at the moment. No one cares about how life is so hard for the sbr and we should respect their bias, get to the point and answer the critics imo. whats the bet that escape clause what written before it even came out lol...

 

[infomon]

No, I really don't see why it's such a big deal. How can anyone possibly get a tier list right at a time like this?? Rating all the characters in terms of their high-level effectiveness........ the SBR might be the most qualified group to do it, but that doesn't mean they have any hope at all of getting it right. Noone can. The game is way too young, most matchups haven't been explored at a high level yet, etc. I don't see why ppl are so ready to trash the SBR for making a list we disagree with.

The only reasonable argument I could see is asking the SBR not to make a list at all, until they're ready to do so properly, like perhaps at a time when legitimately high-level tournaments demonstrate consistency of placements even amongst the uncommon characters, and there's a good sense all-around of how each of the characters fare in all their different matchups.

But that's not a lot of fun, and just as many people would be criticizing the SBR for doing nothing, as are currently flaming them for their list.

tl;dr: SBR list has too many tiers jk

 

[Le_THieN]

typical

lethien gives us a wall of text and uses a whole lot of meaningless dribble to give the impression that there was any though applied to thier decisions while managing to completely avoid confronting the main issue with the list at the moment. No one cares about how life is so hard for the sbr and we should respect their bias, get to the point and answer the critics imo. whats the bet that escape clause what written before it even came out lol...

You--you're right.

Sonic is amazing.

MY LIFE IS A FARCE

No, I really don't see why it's such a big deal. How can anyone possibly get a tier list right at a time like this?? Rating all the characters in terms of their high-level effectiveness........ the SBR might be the most qualified group to do it, but that doesn't mean they have any hope at all of getting it right. Noone can. The game is way too young, most matchups haven't been explored at a high level yet, etc. I don't see why ppl are so ready to trash the SBR for making a list we disagree with.

The only reasonable argument I could see is asking the SBR not to make a list at all, until they're ready to do so properly, like perhaps at a time when legitimately high-level tournaments demonstrate consistency of placements even amongst the uncommon characters, and there's a good sense all-around of how each of the characters fare in all their different matchups.

But that's not a lot of fun, and just as many people would be criticizing the SBR for doing nothing, as are currently flaming them for their list.

tl;dr: SBR list has too many tiers jk

I like this guy.

 

[SonicX580]

typical

lethien gives us a wall of text and uses a whole lot of meaningless dribble to give the impression that there was any though applied to thier decisions while managing to completely avoid confronting the main issue with the list at the moment. No one cares about how life is so hard for the sbr and we should respect their bias, get to the point and answer the critics imo. whats the bet that escape clause what written before it even came out lol...

So bascially they give us a huge meaning less explanation.

No, I really don't see why it's such a big deal. How can anyone possibly get a tier list right at a time like this?? Rating all the characters in terms of their high-level effectiveness........ the SBR might be the most qualified group to do it, but that doesn't mean they have any hope at all of getting it right. Noone can. The game is way too young, most matchups haven't been explored at a high level yet, etc. I don't see why ppl are so ready to trash the SBR for making a list we disagree with.

The only reasonable argument I could see is asking the SBR not to make a list at all, until they're ready to do so properly, like perhaps at a time when legitimately high-level tournaments demonstrate consistency of placements even amongst the uncommon characters, and there's a good sense all-around of how each of the characters fare in all their different matchups.

But that's not a lot of fun, and just as many people would be criticizing the SBR for doing nothing, as are currently flaming them for their list.

tl;dr: SBR list has too many tiers jk

I do agree on you SBR released the list early because brawl isn't melee it's new.

 

[Vyse]

I think infzy's got it.

 

[Browny]

Not quite

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=6289808#post6289808

You see what thesage does?

Thats what we want the SBR to do. I can guarantee you A LOT less people would have a problem with the list if you explained your reasonings in that format. Instead of sarcastic remarks, insults and blatant lies, what the SBR needs to do is compile thier reasonings against sonic being higher in the exact same way thesage does. Of course this will never happen, but at least be aware that there IS a proper way to go about debating, and the sbr is NOT doing it properly at all.

 

[Vyse]

The problem is, is that you're asking every member of the SBR to fully justify their individual reasoning for where they placed Sonic.

Some placed him low, whilst others placed him not so low, and what you got was the average of that. That is the reason for Sonic's placement. You cannot assume that the SBR as a whole entity decided Sonic should be where he's been placed. It is only through the forced consensus of our collective opinions that an average was found.

 

[Browny]

Because thats so much to ask? justify your reasons? Attempting to 'debate' with sbr members in various threads which result in;

'sonic sucks because he is not tourney viable'
'You only win scrub tourneys'

Is an insult to my intelligence, and sonic mainers everywhere. I cant take this site seriously when the people in charge are not only arrogant beyond belief, but cant accept a challenge. Everyone else on SWF is able to hold matchup arguments, even the most biased of all character boards are able to debate in a mature manner eventually. Why is the SBR the only group that is incapable of this?

Im not asking every SBR member to justify their reasonings, I just want a single answer to any of the questions i posed in the main thread. For a group that claim to know more about brawl than any other, they sure are quick to run away and hide behind excuses when it comes to bringing the facts to the table.

When people/groups make decisions that affect others, they NEED to learn how to deal with critics. Any other organisation, government, teachers, movie reviewers, radio hosts they ALL do it somehow. Current projected mindset of the SBR seems to idle between 'If we ignore them will they go away?' and 'shut up scrub, you dont know anything and youre a scrub'. But then again, I expect too much from the SBR. In the end, it is just a group of school/college kids / early 20 somethings lol...

meh i dont expect an answer to this (its more of a rant then it is a question). I just sit here, venting as I try to come to terms with the sheer amount of time ive spent debating on this forum only for it all to be a complete waste of time. 2647 posts, maybe 50 spam posts, and you can bet your life only 1% of anything I said got through to people lol :/

 

[Vyse]

When I casted my vote I used the mentality that almost anybody with a projectile should be able to beat Sonic. Despite his speed (you're too slow ) I believe Sonic has a had time approaching as it is without projectiles to deal with. Unfortunately, a lot of the low tiers have projectiles (namely Mario/Ness/Lucas) so I ranked Sonic lower than them.

What else did you want to know?
(The answer to which you'll get in the morning. I'm sick and want to sleep >.<)

 

[Browny]

lolwut?

questions posed in tier thread:

"A popularity contest* that takes tournament placings very seriously."

... give a reasonable and well thought out explanation as to why tourney results had such large influences for some characters (like falco) while Sonics tourneys counted for nothing.

"That's only a months worth of data"

No, Sonic has been rank 18th or higher for about 4 consecutive months. december just happens to be the highest hes ever been. I posted the rankings list for the past 6 months, each in 2 month intervals

Current response: Scrub tourneys, evidence provided: 0


-------------------------------


"When Sonic places, he's beating someone's Pokemon trainer, or a player who doesn't place very well in real serious tournaments. "

Care to explain then, how sonic deserves to be below at least 10 characters above him? I dont recall (rankings thread agrees) any of those characters winning any big tournaments either. The difference is while sonic and the other low tiers place well in 'bad' tournaments, sonic continues to place in ones with 30+ entrants, $10 entry see etc while every other low tier character's useage drops off.

"hahaha sonic players are still grasping at straws i see
COME ON STEP IT UP @ sonic mains
he's a bad character - if he isn't go win a major"

I would say that the majority of low tiers aren't getting as many points from big events like you're saying that Sonic isn't. When was the last time a Lucas/Ness/Mario/whatever placed top 8 or top 4 in a fairly large (like, 35+ man) tourney? I'd hazard a guess as a very long time, yet these are more vibrant in the current metagame then Sonic?

Current response: Other low tier characters arent used in tournies

...

WTF


--------------------------


"Sonic mains need to represent in tournies better"

you say represent yourself better, now for the sake of the sbr imo, would you be able to provide a proper argument as to how Sonic mains have not been representing as well as any of the 10 characters immediately above him?

Current response: ---


-------------------------------

Since SBR members dismally failed my first simple challenge, how about round two.
Spot the location where Sonic has performed at such a rate that warrants near bottom tier. Once you have done that, provide proof that the only people Sonics won against were indeed scrubs of the highest level. As in the first question, but I made it more obvious

Current response: ---

 

[ithrowthings]

When I casted my vote I used the mentality that almost anybody with a projectile should be able to beat Sonic. Despite his speed (you're too slow ) I believe Sonic has a had time approaching as it is without projectiles to deal with. Unfortunately, a lot of the low tiers have projectiles (namely Mario/Ness/Lucas) so I ranked Sonic lower than them.

What else did you want to know?
(The answer to which you'll get in the morning. I'm sick and want to sleep >.<)

Many a time you can easily avoid the projectiles or use them against your opponent. Against Diddy I usually use his banana peels more effectively than he does, against a pit, I punish arrows with a quick down b that goes right under them. Rob's top is pretty easy to pick up and use against him as well. If Falco starts lasering I usually go in for an aerial approach. Some of my hardest matchups with sonic are against Marth, MK, and ROB and only one of them has a projectile. Also, a campy ROB who just spams projectiles all day usually isn't a problem for me either.

That's just my 2 cents.

 

[Tenki]

In case you all missed it:

To the people who either keep arguing or feel like arguing about Sonic's placement:

Surprisingly enough to you people who are familiar with me, I may argue against Sonic going "mid-tier":

Millions of Sonic players? - the Myth and Reality of Success through Matchups
Like I mentioned earlier, some of those Sonics who placed in December did so in pretty much their first offline tournaments. These people were pretty much "wifi-players", and I myself pretty much did the same. I took first in my first two tournaments, one of which used SBR-ruleset, though it wasn't a monetary prize (30+man tourney, prize was 30$ giftcard to gamestop + Spore lol), but they were never was officially reported due to the nature of the tourneys. (I'm not sure if anyone wants to use that as a case for anything about wifi players lol, but I'll leave it at that).

But here's the thing:

People don't know the Sonic matchup.

We laugh at all the scrubwads who claim to outprioritize and outrange all of Sonic's moves in matchup discussions, when all you're talking about is spindash, after playing some guy who doesn't even know **** about playing Sonic. If we asked you how you did against Sonic's B-air, spaced U-air, or tilts, I'm sure you'd have nothing to say about those moves, because you most likely don't know about them as you haven't seen them. As such, noone bothers to learn the Sonic matchup, and if they don't play online, a large majority of these people never will, unless the tourneys are weekly and the Sonic main goes there often. And even if you play a Sonic player online, it'll be hard to get an idea of what moves are punishable with what, and even harder to get an idea of just how extensive Sonic's punishment and spacing game is - but at least you'll get a general idea of their move tendencies, like jumping aerials out of spindash, spin-cancelling, or 'finished' ("autocancelled") D-airs out of spring, just to name some low level moves.

There aren't millions, let alone tens (2 digit) of Sonic players in tournaments, and you'd be lucky to find more than 2 knowledgable Sonic main in a state, let alone in a tourney. When I won my first tourney, it was ezpz, except for HtH's Samus towards the end, since I didn't know the Samus matchup. When I won my second tourney, I either outclassed players, or they didn't know the matchup. The prospective winner for that tournament constantly talked about how I was "turning into a ball and [he didn't] know what [ I ] was going to do", since he didn't really know what I was doing with all the spin cancels. At the finals, the guy I played against told me to stop using Sonic, and I asked him, "why? he suuuuuuucks and you're using snaaaaaake", he retorted "**** I don't know how to play against Sonic".

But that's exactly it. Throw that "millions of Sonic players" BS out the window and look at it for what you have:

You have a competitively-unpopular character with various mobility, cancellable attacks, and feinting (fake-out) ability.

It can be very difficult to tell the difference between what portion of the "I don't know what you're doing" is player or character-based because of that.

The tournament placings?
Sonics won.

The end.

But as ROOOOY! stated earlier, about half of the Sonic mains who placed in tourneys only placed once.

Either this means that they've only been to one tourney, or people knew what to do next time they played. I haven't gone through the trouble of pinpointing who these Sonic mains were, nor their specific tournament history, but that in itself continues to hint towards the matchup issue.

They placed once, which means that they ravaged them with a character they didn't know to play against.

Did they return and fail to place next time? Was it just a one-shot tournament?

Also, that one tournament where there were like 3 Sonic mains? That brought a 'low-tier' version of the 'Falco points ****' that happened, when two Falcos placed high in a large tourney lol.

Moveset issues?
So it comes down to this:
How do people do against Sonic's tilts and spaced aerials?
How punishable IS Sonic, and to what extent can people punish him?

We may not really have an answer to that yet.

But the main issue I wanted to bring up is the D-throw thing that popped up in Tactical discussion not too long ago.

Alot of people take it as a joke, and thus don't know just what the extent of the damage is (and even though I know what its extent is, I won't spoil it for ya ), but I still get an alarming amount of June-style followups after D-throw.

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Have fun.

Also, Sonic mains, gtfo of here. I set a bomb in this post and it will explode when Haunter evolves.