The Official "Should/Will Metaknight be banned?" Thread (LISTEN TO THE SBR PODCAST!)

[-Nana-]

The reason I am so condescending and rude towards people here is because I don't respect them at all. It's a bunch of people who hardly ever go to tournaments trying to shape the competitive scene of the game. It's like if I were to go to a streetfighter forum and try to start enforcing changes on their game.

Is Anther pro-ban or anti-ban?

But anyway my main point is that all evidence for 'Omg metaknight should be banned" is theoretical. Theoretical matchups, theoretical statistics etc.

All I see are statements like "Mk has no bad matchups" or "mk is too fast, lagless, and strong"

If that's the case then why does he not swipe tournaments across the country? Why are only the absolute top level players winning with metaknight, and even then losing to other top level players who use different characters? Metaknight may be easy to pick up and use and win with at a low level (the level most people in this thread, explaining why everyone talks like they do) but sheik was the same way in melee. At a higher level its more difficult to win because people have so much practice against the character and LEARN the matchup. Metaknight is VERY hard to beat until you learn the matchup, but then it's not nearly as hard. You have to fight him very differently than most characters. But if all people do is whine about him and scream ban from the beginning they will never get to that point and will never be a top player.

In theory - yes maybe metaknight should be banned. But theory needs to be backed by fact and results. I want to see an awful player who cant win pick metaknight and start winning in a talented region. (i want to see inui's metaknight play in md/va)

in practice - there is asbolutely no reason to ban metaknight, hes not dominating anything right now. Only the dominate players are winning with him against anybody decent

This is completely true so I had to repost it. There was also a MK banned tournament where Lee who usually plays MK to my understanding, played as Lucario and won. Most people don't know what they're talking about, however, if it does get to the point where nearly only MK is winning tournaments then I'll understand it and probably be for a ban. I still understand banning him at this point but recently I'm starting to think it's unnecessary and too early.

 

[Sesshomuronay]

Its over 9000!

 

[ShadowLink84]

The reason I am so condescending and rude towards people here is because I don't respect them at all. It's a bunch of people who hardly ever go to tournaments trying to shape the competitive scene of the game. It's like if I were to go to a streetfighter forum and try to start enforcing changes on their game.

That is extremely stupid.
A person does not necessarily HAVE to go to a tournament to know what is or what is not good.
For example, I rarely played SF2, it was just not my favorite fighting game. (GG FTW).
I did not need to go to a tournament to recognize that Akuma was extremely broken.
Nor did I often go to MvC2 tournaments but I new that Storm, cable, magneto and Sentinel murdered everyone below them. (if you want you can mention strider and cyclops who do the same but they get ***** by the aforementioned top tiers).

yes going to a tournament often implies you'll have more experience but this does NOT mean that any argument you have is automatically factual and correct.
Azen once said Luigi can use his down B as a good means of approach. (he was BSing btw).
What happened? Because people went with who made the argument rather than WHAT the argument was, they spent many tournaments getting punished because the would try to do as he mentioned, and get punished for it.

All you're saying is "only the people that are a top level play should dictate how smash should work."
That is somewhat correct but also wrong.
Yes top level people should dictate smash but they are NOT the only people to do so.
Look at m2k. Best brawler out there, yet his arguments are not very good.
Same with Atomsk.
Again being a great smasher does not translate to a great argument.

it means you'll be closer to the right answer, but doesn't mean that you will have the right answer.

Just because Einstein came up with his theory of relativity did not mean he was right unless he went through the argument to support it.

tl;dr: you're saying "The world is flat beause I say so.'

Is Anther pro-ban or anti-ban?

Who cares?

But anyway my main point is that all evidence for 'Omg metaknight should be banned" is theoretical. Theoretical matchups, theoretical statistics etc.

Theoretical statistics?
Really?
Go to the character rankings thread.
Plug in the data.
hell if you just go in and take it at face value it would say Mk is dominating very greatly.

Theoretical matchups? Ah okay. sonic goes 50:50 with MK cause its only theoretical 80:20. I mean, surely none of those matchups have been supported.

What is theoretical is your own argument because its pure theory without EVIDENCE.
That is theorycrafting.

All I see are statements like "Mk has no bad matchups" or "mk is too fast, lagless, and strong"

Really? I guess you don't see posts from adumbrodeus?

If that's the case then why does he not swipe tournaments across the country?

he swipes over 50% in AN.
Over 55% in South west.
Everywhere lse is above 30%.
in the national tournaments he took up the majority of the top 8 spots.

let alone that Akuma was in the u.s. 9 months before he got banned. hardly enough time for him to dominante.

Why are only the absolute top level players winning with metaknight, and even then losing to other top level players who use different characters?

I'll go through 2 points.

1. Level of sill does not matter. the top 3 players of SF2 remained the top 3 players even after Akuma was banned. Under your logic, akuma should not be banned.
2. The level of skill at which m2k, Azen and DSF play is enough to make up for character disadvantages/advantages.
So lets say I am top level. I use Sonic, and I go and beat m2k's Metaknight with my Sonic. Does this mean that MK is easily beatable by Sonic? No.

Metaknight may be easy to pick up and use and win with at a low level (the level most people in this thread, explaining why everyone talks like they do)

So everyone of high level talks out of their arse
c wut I did thar?
There are people like adumbrodeus who may not be m2k skill level but whose arguments are very well supported.
Then we have you who talks out his *** simply because he is better than the great majority of other people.
Who should we consider more?
The person of high level but speaks as if he has a rod rammed up his arse?
Or the lower level (we do not know exactly how low) who actually explains, supports his argument?

I highly doubt the SBR came up with the competitive format just because their high level.

A bad argument is a bad argument no matter how god you are.
No one cares for the elitist behavior because it doesn't get anything done.

but sheik was the same way in melee. At a higher level its more difficult to win because people have so much practice against the character and LEARN the matchup. Metaknight is VERY hard to beat until you learn the matchup, but then it's not nearly as hard. You have to fight him very differently than most characters. But if all people do is whine about him and scream ban from the beginning they will never get to that point and will never be a top player.

Cherry picking?
The only people that go baw baw baw are people who type one line sentences and make bad arguments.

you have the fact that every character board has revolved around how to beat Mk just as they did when Snake was dominating in tournaments.
Mind you the metagame has advanced so it WILL take longer.
But I highly doubt its people just bawing and not learning the matchup.

In theory - yes maybe metaknight should be banned. But theory needs to be backed by fact and results. I want to see an awful player who cant win pick metaknight and start winning in a talented region. (i want to see inui's metaknight play in md/va)

hey lets cherry pick.
lets take someone whose skill level is much lesser than someone else and pit them. Surely that WILL be an accurate measure of the characters capabilities!

No really. Let's take a random noob and stick him against m2k. M2k uses ganondonrf, noob uses MK. I have my money on Ganondorf.

Ah wait, none of that matters because (and this is the millionth time) THE SKILL OF A PLAYER DOES NOT REFLECT UPON THE CHARACTERS CAPABILITIES

Wih your logic, Akuma should not be banned cause the top level players would **** noobs using Akuma. (ever seen balrog perfect Akuma twice in a row? )

in practice - there is asbolutely no reason to ban metaknight, hes not dominating anything right now. Only the dominate players are winning with him against anybody decent/

i call bull ****.
Look at the tournament results which completely trash that argument.
If you remov2 M2k's, Azen's results concerning MK he STILL remains dominant.
let alone that if you are going to remove the top players for a character you might as well do the same for every other character out there.


@nana: Don't cherry pick. A high level Lucario won in a tuornament where there was not a high level MK. What does that say? Lucario won without Mk present. Does this say anything about M being ban worthy or not? Not really, its only one piece of data. it just says Lee's Lucario won without an MK around.
When Akuma was gone from SF2, other characters won as well. Does this mean Akuma should be banned because other characters can win without him present? No.

If you only look at one piece of the tournament results (wins) it says nothing.
it does say something though when you see alot more diversity.

For example Akuma being banned top 8 no longer consists of Akuma but consists of Ken, Ryu, Guile ,balrog, etc etc.



Edit: Wall of text.

 

[Sky`]

I kinda see MK as Itachi in GTN4.
When I go to tournaments, usually the top placings consist of Itachi, and he has that infinite that just kills, every time.

Not broken, I usually win tournaments with Lee, but still, difficult.

XD MK is the same wai, I've seen other characters win high end tournaments.
Yubacity regional?
1st. ROB. (Hitori)
2nd. ROB. (T0mmy)
3rd. Tlink (Question Mark)
4th. MK. (Sean) INVENTOR OF THE INFINITE DIMENSIONAL CAPE!

XD

 

[ShadowLink84]

Dude stop cherry picking.
Your results mean nothing compared to everything else.

He also DISCOVERED, not invented...

 

[Sky`]

Dude stop cherry picking.
Your results mean nothing compared to everything else.

He also DISCOVERED, not invented...

And maybe we can work on getting that stick out of your ***.

Chill the F*ck out, and just listen to somebody else except for you, for once.

And learn to take posts lightheartedly.

I think you should probably go outside once and a while.

 

[ShadowLink84]

meh forget it no point

 

[AlphaZealot]

Theoretical statistics?
Really?
Go to the character rankings thread.
Plug in the data.
hell if you just go in and take it at face value it would say Mk is dominating very greatly.

I did this with Marth in Melee. Marth is/was roughly as dominant by the character rankings formula (ankoku's) as MK is. The difference is the mentallity surrounding the character, which is subjective/theoretical, and which is what raftbuilder was attacking.

You cannot argue a ban on MK based on results without also arguing for a likewise ban on Marth in Melee, again, based purely on results.

Also, the effect of everyone switching to MK makes little sense. Consider that M2K doesn't lose to MK's, but does lose to other characters. Technically, if your goal was to get first at a national tournament, you would have to use a character other than MK just to beat M2K.

 

[Sky`]

Oh no I just got flamed by someone who is unusually sensitive when receiving a reply.
God help me /sarcasm.

yeah as you can tell... I find you a joke.

If I wanted your opinion, I'd take my d*ck out of your mouth.
You're just a sensitive troll who jumps at any opportunity to make yourself sound like you know something.


Well, here's a piece of advice.

Instead of trying to make it seem like you're intimidating, with your knowledge, or lack there of, why don't you just try and make something constructive in this debate? Most, if not all of your arguments are so emotionally charged, it's kinda funny cause you don't really know hao to debatorz.

Your satirical comments only lead to flaming and anger, and it's completely unnecessary when debating about MK. And just because you think of somebody as a "Joke" you discredit them, regardless of what they have to say.

What I said was valid, people in here keep saying that MK makes top placings, when I gave you a very good MK, who made fourth, only to be thwarted by ROBs and Tlinks. I'm sure that isn't the only instance when MK failed to make first. It was just one example sure, but an example none the less.

And, speaking of jokes, How long have you been in this tournament scene? How long did you play Melee? Brawl? Win any local tournaments? Place high in any of them? Attend any? Place top 10? 15? Where is your experience that gives you jurisdiction to troll this thread oh so often and say things that maybe you don't have any idea about?

I didn't think so, tool.

/anthropology class. Go ahead and leave an emotional wall of text. I'll be there to not care about it eventually.




/10randoms.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ArHas4eozE

 

[Dark.Pch]

Sky and shadow, can you take this lil fight to PM's, how is this helping out with this debate?

 

[ShadowLink84]

I did this with Marth in Melee. Marth is/was roughly as dominant by the character rankings formula (ankoku's) as MK is. The difference is the mentallity surrounding the character, which is subjective/theoretical, and which is what raftbuilder was attacking.

You cannot argue a ban on MK based on results without also arguing for a likewise ban on Marth in Melee, again, based purely on results.

The problem with the data you plugged in was that.
The amount of national tournaments for Marth were in greater number in comparison to MK.
So despite the fact that MK wins as much as Marth and also takes up more spots than Marth did in melee, the data is skewed slightly.

So while Marth won just as much as MK, when Mk is present there is less diversity within the top 8 and shows how he causes more centralization.

Not only that you must take into account the local tournaments as well. mind you they are not as large as national tournaments, but the amount of data they provide is much, much greater than those of the national tournaments by themselves. So if you take it no account marth's behavior in melee national and local wise, Mk does exceed him noticeably.

Mind you it is not JUST the tournament rankings I am mentioning its many other factors as well.

Also, the effect of everyone switching to MK makes little sense. Consider that M2K doesn't lose to MK's, but does lose to other characters. Technically, if your goal was to get first at a national tournament, you would have to use a character other than MK just to beat M2K.

It actually does make sense.
If M2k has never lost to another Metaknight but loses to other characters (though I am not sure how many times he has lost exactly), it could be said that he understands metaknight much better than his opponent, while when he faces a character like DK who he is not as familiar with, he is more prone to lose.

If I plan to take 1st I am not forced to switch away from MK. My chances would be better if I used DDD against Dk instead of MK, but by no means am I forced to switch to take 1st place. By using Mk I am ensured to always be safe. (according to the current metagame).

I am not for or against the ban. its too early IMO.
I just pick apart arguments that irk me. (tends to be even for both sides so far.)

ad hominem+idiocy

Hypocrisy is a lovely thing.

@drk. Peach: What fight?
I'll just report him if he continues flaming.

 

[Zankoku]

I find it rather amusing that you're accusing Sky of ad hominem when you're the one who personally attacked Sky when he gave his claim.

Oh whoops, I just said something I shouldn't've. Because I don't care about you people.

 

[ShadowLink84]

I find it rather amusing that you're accusing Sky of ad hominem when you're the one who personally attacked Sky when he gave his claim.

Oh whoops, I just said something I shouldn't have. Because I don't care about you people.

I personally attacked him when he brought up those tournament results?
When?
I said he was cherry picking because he only brought up those tournament results that support his claim and ignored the other results that disagree.

If you mean after he responded by flaming me? yes.
Mainly since I responded to him rather well then saw he said he'd ignore it anyways so meh, screw it. Can't be bothered. Why should I waste my time? nor is it exactly the first time he's responded in such a manner.

 

[Plairnkk]

i think i would like ankoku

 

[Niko_K]

I <3 Plank and ankoku

 

[ShadowLink84]

*wonders when this topic will get closed*

nothing has really been said that hasn't been said already.

 

[AlphaZealot]

So while Marth won just as much as MK, when Mk is present there is less diversity within the top 8 and shows how he causes more centralization.

This is another common fallacy. Go ahead and scroll through the results that add up to Ankoku's results. You will find most tournaments have about 6-9 characters represented in the top 8. This is on par with Melee.

Not only that you must take into account the local tournaments as well. mind you they are not as large as national tournaments, but the amount of data they provide is much, much greater than those of the national tournaments by themselves. So if you take it no account marth's behavior in melee national and local wise, Mk does exceed him noticeably.

This is another common fallacy. First, national tournament provide the most data because it is an analysis of the absolute upper echelon of talent/play. In other words, if a persons theory about a given character is indeed correct, it will be shown/tested the most at these national tournaments. Second, if we compiled local tournaments, you would have Ken winning almost every local in CA, Azen winning almost every local in MD (with Husband getting top 5 frequently), and M2K winning every local in NYC. Keep in mind the number of local Melee tournaments is substantially less than the number for Brawl, if anything Marth's numbers would be padded far more than MK's numbers. However, local tournaments are more or less unimportant when the interest is what happens at top echelon play.

I would argue that an analysis of large, national tournaments for the largest prizes ever awarded in the Smash community is FAR more relevant than an analysis of data with large tournaments (none of the caliber of MLG events except maybe Axis) clumped together with smaller ones where randomscrub309 wins against 20 other random people in Montana for a grand prize of a $25 gift certificate to gamestop.

*wonders when this topic will get closed*

nothing has really been said that hasn't been said already.

I've been thinking of closing it simply because this + the poll topic are essentially the same thing, and there is no point in having two of one topic.

If M2k has never lost to another Metaknight but loses to other characters (though I am not sure how many times he has lost exactly), it could be said that he understands metaknight much better than his opponent, while when he faces a character like DK who he is not as familiar with, he is more prone to lose.

If I plan to take 1st I am not forced to switch away from MK. My chances would be better if I used DDD against Dk instead of MK, but by no means am I forced to switch to take 1st place. By using Mk I am ensured to always be safe. (according to the current metagame).

The logic is that mains for characters OTHER than MK will switch to MK over the likes of Diddy/Snake/Wario, when in reality it would make more sense to switch to those characters because you will never beat M2K in an MK ditto (or most of the current top MK players, because simply put, they have more experience and skill with the character, along with more familiarity with the ditto). If you beat him using Diddy Kong, it doesn't matter if he didn't know the match up or is inexperienced, we are not in a game of predicting what will eventually occur, if there is a tournament for $2,000 and M2K loses in a match up he doesn't have experience in, then he lost. Period. Actually, this has already happened: Pound 3, M2K lost to Mango. Its not "oh, I should have won, I was using the better character". It is simply "I lost".

 

[Tien2500]

I find it rather amusing that you're accusing Sky of ad hominem when you're the one who personally attacked Sky when he gave his claim.

Oh whoops, I just said something I shouldn't've. Because I don't care about you people.

You don't care about us people? That's mean. I care about you! You just hurt my feelings.

 

[ShadowLink84]

This is another common fallacy. Go ahead and scroll through the results that add up to Ankoku's results. You will find most tournaments have about 6-9 characters represented in the top 8. This is on par with Melee.

oh yeah my error. What I am curous about is the amount of places that marth vs MK takes u. Does MK not take up 3 more places when it came to the top 8 in the national tournaments than marth?
Also, the other characters, weren't they also used in conjunction with MK?
Could it not be said that if MK had not been used that the players who would have used those characters would have ended up lower without MK than they would with him?

stuff

hmm okay makes sense.
I put stuff because I didn't want to make a large quote without a large response to it.

The logic is that mains for characters OTHER than MK will switch to MK over the likes of Diddy/Snake/Wario, when in reality it would make more sense to switch to those characters because you will never beat M2K in an MK ditto (or most of the current top MK players, because simply put, they have more experience and skill with the character, along with more familiarity with the ditto). If you beat him using Diddy Kong, it doesn't matter if he didn't know the match up or is inexperienced, we are not in a game of predicting what will eventually occur, if there is a tournament for $2,000 and M2K loses in a match up he doesn't have experience in, then he lost. Period. Actually, this has already happened: Pound 3, M2K lost to Mango. Its not "oh, I should have won, I was using the better character". It is simply "I lost".

I have to disagree a bit.
A loss is a loss but we cannot simply take it at a face value.

For example if I face m2k with my sonic and beat him because of the fact that m2k wasn't familiar with the matchup, while he did loss this does not necessarily add to my argument of saying Sonic does well against MK.

Are we not supposed to assume high levels of play where both players know the matchup well? if m2k loses a match with MK because he is unfamiliar with a matchup it doesn't add to either argument on to whether he is ban worthy or not.

 

[AlphaZealot]

For example if I face m2k with my sonic and beat him because of the fact that m2k wasn't familiar with the matchup, while he did loss this does not necessarily add to my argument of saying Sonic does well against MK.

Are we not supposed to assume high levels of play where both players know the matchup well? if m2k loses a match with MK because he is unfamiliar with a matchup it doesn't add to either argument on to whether he is ban worthy or not.

Except the argument, lets say for Diddy, is that Diddy runs even or may even be a soft counter for MK. Meaning a top Diddy beating top MK's on a consistent basis, like Ninjalink, would put the wins squarely in the column of Diddy being even/counter. Its the notion that "well MK will learn the match up eventually" that undermines these wins. There has been a trend of Ninjalink beating top MK's, yet it gets ignored because of subjective theories that MK should technically always hold the advantage. You should analyse things for what they are, not what they may be.

And you know what, if you beat M2K using Yoshi, then you BEAT M2K using Yoshi, which is far better than any MK player would do against M2K (save for maybe Azen).

We are suppose to assume high levels of play, but even at the highest level people will be unaware of what to do in some match ups. This is a very real quality that has reared its head at many tournaments and will continue to shine through, especially in a young game such as Brawl. Therefor, assuming people will eventually know every match up is a fallacy in itself, since it has never actually occurred nor is it ever likely to occur. Actually, if you think about it, one of the largest determiners in who wins matches at the highest levels is who has more experience against a given character/player.

 

[salaboB]

And you know what, if you beat M2K using Yoshi, then you BEAT M2K using Yoshi, which is far better than any MK player would do against M2K (save for maybe Azen).

M2K has said he doesn't get to practice much outside of tournaments.

Beating him once by using a character he's unfamiliar with actually holds almost no value -- doing it repeatedly would start to show something.

 

[da K.I.D.]

hasnt NL been losing to MKs recently?

 

[KiwiBear]

You know what, I'm going to be real here. And I'm going to say this as an experienced Brawl player. Metaknight isn't broken because of his speed, nor is it his abilty to execute and end attacks. Its his recovery thats the real ******* here. I'm sure everyone is aware on how lame and unfair Final Destination's ledges can be. One small slip-up, and you'll wind up bumping your head against the bottom sides of it, and your ability to recovery will be destroyed.

Metaknight doesn't have recovery issue WHATSOEVER. Because of this players who use Meta Knight are able to harrass the other characters more than anyone. All of his special abilties have recovering properties , he can glide twice NOT mentioning the fact they can make sport of this and fly up and under most stages, and his Shuttle Loop doesn't bump against the bottom of Final Destination. Out of all the advantages Meta Knight has, I think this one is the most unfair distinction he has from the other characters. There's no fear of recovery, and its nearly effortless to do so whether recovering or intercepting.

 

[ShadowLink84]

yes but then we have cases in which a lower level MK beats a top level MK. For example when Inui beat ninjalink's diddy with his 2 week old MK. So that would point to diddy being at a disadvantage . it can't be said that Mk goes 80:20 against diddy because Inui didn't win by a significant margin 9correct me if i am wrong). so what explanation would be there?


@kiwibear: What about Sonic and jigglypuff and Rob and Pit? Good luck gimping them.

 

[AlphaZealot]

Beating him once by using a character he's unfamiliar with actually holds almost no value -- doing it repeatedly would start to show something.

Again, it has a lot of value. How can you say it holds no value but also support the notion that MK has no counters? Obviously this no counters notion means that, technically, MK players should already know every match up. This would hold even MORE true for the best MK in the country. So the question is, if M2K ever does lose to Yoshi, then what, if anything, was the notion of MK winning the match up based on except based on low level Yoshi players?

Essentially, with no evidence some would claim MK has no counters. Then if MK loses, they would simply say "match up inexperience", when such a statement begs the question of what, if anything, allowed them to make the original statement of MK having no counters.

And again, Ninjalink, Diddy, more wins against top MK's than any other character, MK or otherwise, in the game or any other player in the country.

hasnt NL been losing to MKs recently?

No. He lost ONE time to Inui, and it was perpetuated as all the evidence in the world to undo his trend of winning against MK while using Diddy. Essentially, NL finishes usually top 5 at tournaments (including large regional tournaments) and he has only lost to one MK since the beginning of August (oh, btw, he won tournaments the last two weekends in NY).

He has beaten M2K's MK, Azen's MK, Fortes MK on more than one occasion, Omni's MK, Shadow's MK, and then a few other decent MK players in the NY/NJ region, plus all the low level MK's anyone is bound to run into early in a bracket.

No MK/other character can say they have accomplished that, and no other player can say they have accomplished that. Azen is the closest, but I don't think he has ever beaten M2K 2-0 using Lucario against MK.

 

[laki]

NL lost to Inui some time in October

 

[Tien2500]

Except the argument, lets say for Diddy, is that Diddy runs even or may even be a soft counter for MK. Meaning a top Diddy beating top MK's on a consistent basis, like Ninjalink, would put the wins squarely in the column of Diddy being even/counter. Its the notion that "well MK will learn the match up eventually" that undermines these wins. There has been a trend of Ninjalink beating top MK's, yet it gets ignored because of subjective theories that MK should technically always hold the advantage. You should analyse things for what they are, not what they may be.

And you know what, if you beat M2K using Yoshi, then you BEAT M2K using Yoshi, which is far better than any MK player would do against M2K (save for maybe Azen).

We are suppose to assume high levels of play, but even at the highest level people will be unaware of what to do in some match ups. This is a very real quality that has reared its head at many tournaments and will continue to shine through, especially in a young game such as Brawl. Therefor, assuming people will eventually know every match up is a fallacy in itself, since it has never actually occurred nor is it ever likely to occur. Actually, if you think about it, one of the largest determiners in who wins matches at the highest levels is who has more experience against a given character/player.

Are any top Diddy's besides Ninjalink having success against MKs?

 

[da K.I.D.]

Are any top Diddy's besides Ninjalink having success against MKs?

thats a negatory, which is funny cus according to NL he doesnt even main diddy, he mains random or some crap like that

 

[Ken Neth]

You know what, I'm going to be real here. And I'm going to say this as an experienced Brawl player. Metaknight isn't broken because of his speed, nor is it his abilty to execute and end attacks. Its his recovery thats the real ******* here. I'm sure everyone is aware on how lame and unfair Final Destination's ledges can be. One small slip-up, and you'll wind up bumping your head against the bottom sides of it, and your ability to recovery will be destroyed.

Metaknight doesn't have recovery issue WHATSOEVER. Because of this players who use Meta Knight are able to harrass the other characters more than anyone. All of his special abilties have recovering properties , he can glide twice NOT mentioning the fact they can make sport of this and fly up and under most stages, and his Shuttle Loop doesn't bump against the bottom of Final Destination. Out of all the advantages Meta Knight has, I think this one is the most unfair distinction he has from the other characters. There's no fear of recovery, and its nearly effortless to do so whether recovering or intercepting.

Having a recovery issue, such as getting stuck on the bottom of the stage, is a player mistake and can be easily avoided. That isn't a reason MK is ban-worthy. And there are other characters that can go way off the stage to harrass people and make it back without worrying.

While I do agree that he has the best recovery, his recovery should not be considered broken.

Edit: There were like fifty people that posted in the time it took me to reply XD

 

[Tien2500]

thats a negatory, which is funny cus according to NL he doesnt even main diddy, he mains random or some crap like that

Lol. Most random mainers have a character they pull out when they're in trouble. But anyway until we see more than one Diddy having consistent success against MKs on different stages (I believe FD is the best stage for Diddy against MK right?) then I'd have trouble believing Diddy is a counter.

 

[cutter]

MK could just... you know... ban Final D. :/

 

[AlphaZealot]

Are any top Diddy's besides Ninjalink having success against MKs?

This was actually the same argument that made people think Marth was not the best character in Melee. Everyone just thought it was Ken being Ken in 2004/2005. But then Azen started dominating more with Marth then his other 25 characters, and then M2K went from placing top 5 with Fox (the supposedly best character in the game) to contending/being the best player in the world using Marth.

And NL won on other stages other than FD (including BF/Delfino). This is just another myth that gets perpetuated. If someone says Diddy can counter or run even with MK, with absolutely no knowledge of the match up people will retort "only on FD", completely ignoring that they had previously said MK has no bad match ups or stages. Diddy does really well on A LOT of stages, including just about every neutral.

 

[salaboB]

Again, it has a lot of value. How can you say it holds no value but also support the notion that MK has no counters? Obviously this no counters notion means that, technically, MK players should already know every match up. This would hold even MORE true for the best MK in the country. So the question is, if M2K ever does lose to Yoshi, then what, if anything, was the notion of MK winning the match up based on except based on low level Yoshi players?

Essentially, with no evidence some would claim MK has no counters. Then if MK loses, they would simply say "match up inexperience", when such a statement begs the question of what, if anything, allowed them to make the original statement of MK having no counters.

Because I don't support that MK has only 70:30's.

If a match is, say, 55:45 or even 60:40 (Both MK's favor) but M2K just has never faced such a strategy before, the disadvantaged opponent can still realistically win that first go around. But if they can't do it repeatedly, you haven't demonstrated anything more than that the character is one who is close to MK in the matchup (Or even that there is a particular trick needed to defeat the approach used and M2K just didn't know it, which could ovecome an even higher matchup disadvantage). You certainly haven't shown it to be a counter to anything but M2K's matchup knowledge.

Edit: This will be particularily true against Diddy (Who you need to go for counter-banana-control to fight effectively against) and Yoshi (Who just fights weird). For instance, there was a video of Inui fighting a Diddy, and at the start of the round he was holding his own and looked to be on the way to winning...but then he quit picking up bananas all the time because he apparently felt confident enough in his lead, and he ended up losing. It was extremely obvious how much of a difference taking the time to gather bananas had been making.

 

[ShadowLink84]

That didn't answer his question though.
Who else is winning with Diddy AZ?

 

[da K.I.D.]

cus it sure as hell aint you

 

[rehab]

lol hominen

 

[aeghrur]

lol hominen

Lol, I know, this whole thread is filled with hominems.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Thats not nice Kid. i think AZ's a great Diddy.

 

[AlphaZealot]

That didn't answer his question though.
Who else is winning with Diddy AZ?

Nanners is probably the next best Diddy after NL.

The question is pointless though, if one person can do it, other can and will eventually, Marth/Jiggly are proof of this concept in Melee. Actually, MK is proof of this concept in Brawl, as M2K copied Forte's MK, and DSF copied M2K's MK. The big difference here is that you can learn MK quickly, Diddy takes a long time because its a harder to learn/more complicated character (plus you have to have technical skill on par with some Melee characters).

Also, not that I have to, but in my first tournament in 5-6 months I got third (out of 67 people), including going to winners finals and taking it to game 5 against a person with 10X the tournament experience than me and who was using supposedly the best/broken character in the game (the person being Inui, who the weekend just before beat NL 2-0). If MK was actually so amazing, I should have been dominated. I wasn't.

 

[salaboB]

I've been thinking of closing it simply because this + the poll topic are essentially the same thing, and there is no point in having two of one topic.

I think they're both worthwhile at the moment, this thread usually has more in-depth conversations about the actual reasons for or against banning MK, and the poll one is more focused around the community's opinion and what influence that should have on it. They haven't degenerated to the same point yet, though.

The question is pointless though, if one person can do it, other can and will eventually, Marth/Jiggly are proof of this concept in Melee. Actually, MK is proof of this concept in Brawl, as M2K copied Forte's MK, and DSF copied M2K's MK. The big difference here is that you can learn MK quickly, Diddy takes a long time because its a harder to learn/more complicated character (plus you have to have technical skill on par with some Melee characters).

If Diddy doesn't take as much technical skill as the most technical Melee characters, the better players should be able to easily pick him up (Because they'd understand how to do the button twitchy thing, from Melee). I think it's more a case of him not being as effective as people would like once you get familiar with the matchup and how to actually grab bananas yourself.