The Official "Should/Will Metaknight be banned?" Thread (LISTEN TO THE SBR PODCAST!)

[Calixto]

The analogy works I guess, if we all want to be Metaknight.


I don't think everyone wants to be Metaknight.

 

[XienZo]

You missed a big one. I'll use an analogy that someone else brought up. MK is like Jesus, he is here to bring love, peace, and ultimately make our community a better, stronger place. Unfortunately, Jesus (MK) is misunderstood by some people. Jesus is a great guy, he could be the most powerful guy in the world, and this scares some people about what type of changes Jesus may bring, that the old status quo would be upset. As the number of followers grew, so to did the number of people who wanted to kill him. Then, someone who was once in line with Jesus (MK), decides one day that he doesn't like all the attention MK gets, and so this person, Judas (Overswarm), decides to throw Jesus to the masses and have him killed. Banning MK is like killing off Jesus.

My history books says Jesus gets killed off. It also says people always repeat history. I propose we listen to my history book.

 

[Genome Squirrel]

So far it seems the major Pro-MK side arguments are "Wait and figure out the matchup" or "Be Azen. Lol".


Am I somewhere on target there?

the anti-ban side doesn't need points, all they have to do make the other sides points seem fallible.

there will always be at least the appearance of options, and that's because there are always other options. shielding can do so much, don't get hit/grabbed/ledgecamped

all evidence here is substantial, it doesn't bear much weight

 

[St. Viers]

I learned that we only repeat history if we're too stupid to learn from it =P

10christs

 

[XienZo]

I learned that we only repeat history if we're too stupid to learn from it =P

10christs

If we're smart enough to learn from history, we aren't people anymore.

 

[da K.I.D.]

i am officially done even looking at this thread if you just tried to relate a video game character to Jesus.

that junk is mad offensive, and if you know me you know that thats saying something...

p.s. who is that in your sig ankoku? i like it.

 

[HeroMystic]

^I don't find it offensive, I just find it stupid.

If we're smart enough to learn from history, we aren't people anymore.

So... sigworthy...

 

[salaboB]

^I don't find it offensive, I just find it stupid.

So either way it failed entirely.

Still waiting for an explanation of why it's healthier for the competitive scene to leave him in than to ban him.

I'll even give you (Whoever is anti-ban that addresses this, this is not directed at HeroMystic) something to have to answer, to save time getting it shot down: Snake will still be left to strive to learn how to beat, so all other character's metagames will have something to develop for even without MK.

 

[Genome Squirrel]

You missed a big one. I'll use an analogy that someone else brought up. MK is like Jesus, he is here to bring love, peace, and ultimately make our community a better, stronger place. Unfortunately, Jesus (MK) is misunderstood by some people. Jesus is a great guy, he could be the most powerful guy in the world, and this scares some people about what type of changes Jesus may bring, that the old status quo would be upset. As the number of followers grew, so to did the number of people who wanted to kill him. Then, someone who was once in line with Jesus (MK), decides one day that he doesn't like all the attention Jesus gets, and so this person, Judas (Overswarm), decides to throw Jesus to the masses and have him killed.

In conclusion, banning MK is like killing off Jesus.

mk is the old status quo not the new, not that we'll get a new status quo.
mk makes me sad, let's ban him.
and besides by christian beliefs, metaknight sacrificing himself would be the best thing he's done for us, our johns would all be forgiven.

 

[XienZo]

So either way it failed entirely.

Still waiting for an explanation of why it's healthier for the competitive scene to leave him in than to ban him.

I'll even give you (Whoever is anti-ban that addresses this, this is not directed at HeroMystic) something to have to answer, to save time getting it shot down: Snake will still be left to strive to learn how to beat, so all other character's metagames will have something to develop for even without MK.

Snake is different though, second Pika or Olimar and you have a good chance against Snake. You can't really CP MK with a second that you don't spend all your time with.

 

[salaboB]

Snake is different though, second Pika or Olimar and you have a good chance against Snake. You can't really CP MK with a second that you don't spend all your time with.

People will still be looking for ways for their mains to gain advantages -- what if they get CP'ed by someone using Snake, after all? You only get to CP if you lose.

Edit: The point was, there are reasons why metagame development won't just grind to a halt if MK isn't there to spur people on to try to find ways to beat him. If someone wants to say "Don't ban MK because it will harm metagame development" they must explain why that isn't true or the reasons I just gave can be used to dismantle that part of their point.

 

[XienZo]

Oh, well, you got a battle further than if the opponent is MK...

Snake isn't fun, but he still can be CPed to improve your chances (not neccesarily guaranting a win), while that won't even work on MK.

 

[AlphaZealot]

Still waiting for an explanation of why it's healthier for the competitive scene to leave him in than to ban him.

Banning things that are hard to deal with, but not impossible, as is the case with MK, is actually the exact OPPOSITE of the competitive mentality.

So, do you want me to answer this for the competitive scene.
Or just the scene of people who player Smash for fun.

 

[salaboB]

Banning things that are hard to deal with, but not impossible, as is the case with MK, is actually the exact OPPOSITE of the competitive mentality.

"hard to deal with but not impossible" can also be translated to "unfair advantage", which is not the competitive mentality.

Sure, I can beat someone that has an unfair advantage on me -- it's hard to deal with but not impossible. That doesn't mean leaving them with it is good for being competitive.

I think Olympic races should start with anyone from a given country 5 feet ahead of the rest. The others will be able to win after all, so it's only hard to deal with, but not impossible. Is that a competitive example?

 

[XienZo]

Banning things that are hard to deal with, but not impossible, as is the case with MK, is actually the exact OPPOSITE of the competitive mentality.

So, do you want me to answer this for the competitive scene.
Or just the scene of people who player Smash for fun.

What if lots of people go back to Melee because of MK though? We need a good competitive scene, but we also need people to actually further the metagame...

 

[Zankoku]

So, do you want me to answer this for the competitive scene.
Or just the scene of people who player Smash for fun.

People who play Smash just for fun would not be affected by a formal ban, or any normal tournament rulings, for that matter. They do whatever they feel like to have fun. So yours or anyone else's views on decisions affecting the "health" of that scene really wouldn't mean much.

 

[AlphaZealot]

People who play Smash just for fun would not be affected by a formal ban, or any normal tournament rulings, for that matter. They do whatever they feel like to have fun. So yours or anyone else's views on decisions affecting the "health" of that scene really wouldn't mean much.

The point is that if you ban something simply because its hard to deal with, then you are actually not playing competitively. This is largely the basis of banning MK, since MK's results basically mirror Marths from Melee, then the problem with the character lies in the subjective mentality revolving around him, not in its actual results or brokenness. Again, Edreese has stated before that he doesn't think MK is broken, he simply thinks it is better for the community to have him banned.

Actually, this is essentially the summation of what Edreese thinks, or what many people in favor of banning the character think:

What if lots of people go back to Melee because of MK though? We need a good competitive scene, but we also need people to actually further the metagame...

Notice, the reasons for banning aren't the character, but the EFFECT the character has on peoples attendance. It doesn't matter if the character is no more or less dominant than Melee Marth, what matters is that winning with the character is percieved as LESS SKILLFUL than winning with Melee Marth. This ultimately leads to annoyance/disgruntled players who complain. The results are the same. The perceptions of the characters are different.

"hard to deal with but not impossible" can also be translated to "unfair advantage", which is not the competitive mentality.

Sure, I can beat someone that has an unfair advantage on me -- it's hard to deal with but not impossible. That doesn't mean leaving them with it is good for being competitive.

I think Olympic races should start with anyone from a given country 5 feet ahead of the rest. The others will be able to win after all, so it's only hard to deal with, but not impossible. Is that a competitive example?

Awful example. I'm sorry, but this is a fighting game, not all characters are created equal. By the logic you just displayed in this post, we should ban every character but Captain Falcon, so that we can all be on equal footing and match ups will be irrelevant. According to what you just posted, if I'm playing Diddy Kong and my opponent is Falco, then them being Falco results in an unfair advantage and we are therefor not playing competitively.

Play Diddy. Play Wario. Play Snake. The difference makers in the match up using these characters against MK is skill, not inherent character advantages. If somehow close to even match ups are unfair...well I guess I missed that day of class.

 

[salaboB]

Awful example. I'm sorry, but this is a fighting game, not all characters are created equal. By the logic you just displayed in this post, we should ban every character but Captain Falcon, so that we can all be on equal footing and match ups will be irrelevant. According to what you just posted, if I'm playing Diddy Kong and my opponent is Falco, then them being Falco results in an unfair advantage and we are therefor not playing competitively.

Play Diddy. Play Wario. Play Snake. The difference makers in the match up using these characters against MK is skill, not inherent character advantages. If somehow close to even match ups are unfair...well I guess I missed that day of class.

Actually it was a nearly perfect example.

Playing MK can be overcome simply by being better -- in many races, the winner is more than 5 feet ahead of most other people. But when one of the people who is close happens to be from that country, they'd win -- because of starting 5 feet in front. That's what people who are using MK receive. They can also win by more than 5 feet themselves, which also happens with MK: If the user is skilled, they'll win without the extra aid MK provided and just do it even more thoroughly. So the example doesn't fail there, either.

Unbeatable? No. But it's not fair competition either.

MK screws up the counterpick system even with neutral matchups because his neutral matchups can be counterpicked while he still can't be. So he is still a pure advantaged character to start off with when you're not counterpicking your opponent, and he'll protect you from being able to be counterpicked better than any other character in the game. This is why he's a 5 foot head start in the race -- I carefully chose something that was defeatable but a distinct advantage.

Melee was not like this, because there were multiple characters who demonstrated that behavior. This is a flaw unique to Brawl.

By the way, you shot down the Diddy example yourself when you said he requires more technical skill to bring him up to the level to compete with MK. That means that to get a 50:50 matchup the Diddy must be a better player than the MK. At equal technical abilities, MK should be able to counter-banana Diddy and the matchup is unlikely to remain at 50:50.

 

[AlphaZealot]

Actually it was a nearly perfect example.

Playing MK can be overcome simply by being better -- in many races, the winner is more than 5 feet ahead of most other people. But when one of the people who is close happens to be from that country, they'd win -- because of starting 5 feet in front. That's what people who are using MK receive.

Unbeatable? No. But it's not fair competition either.

MK screws up the counterpick system even with neutral matchups because his neutral matchups can be counterpicked while he still can't be. So he is still a pure advantaged character to start off with when you're not counterpicking your opponent, and he'll protect you from being able to be counterpicked better than any other character in the game. This is why he's a 5 foot head start in the race -- I carefully chose something that was defeatable but a distinct advantage.

Melee was not like this, because there were multiple characters who demonstrated that behavior. This is a flaw unique to Brawl.

By the way, you shot down the Diddy example yourself when you said he requires more technical skill to bring him up to the level to compete with MK. That means that to get a 50:50 matchup the Diddy must be a better player than the MK. At equal technical abilities, MK should be able to counter-banana Diddy and the matchup is unlikely to remain at 50:50.

1. You fail to explain how me being Captain Falcon doesn't automatically mean every person I play has an unfair advantage over me, and that this is uncompetitive.

2. Better technically =/= the better player. By this logic Silent Wolf or DaShizWiz are the best players in Melee, since their technical ability is far greater then almost everyones. You don't assume equal technical abilities between the players. You should assume that the person using whatever character they are using is capable of performing all the technical feet's of that character.

 

[GofG]

You missed a big one. I'll use an analogy that someone else brought up. MK is like Jesus, he is here to bring love, peace, and ultimately make our community a better, stronger place. Unfortunately, Jesus (MK) is misunderstood by some people. Jesus is a great guy, he could be the most powerful guy in the world, and this scares some people about what type of changes Jesus may bring, that the old status quo would be upset. As the number of followers grew, so to did the number of people who wanted to kill him. Then, someone who was once in line with Jesus (MK), decides one day that he doesn't like all the attention Jesus gets, and so this person, Judas (Overswarm), decides to throw Jesus to the masses and have him killed.

In conclusion, banning MK is like killing off Jesus.

I came.

Hard.

 

[salaboB]

1. You fail to explain how me being Captain Falcon doesn't automatically mean every person I play has an unfair advantage over me, and that this is uncompetitive.

Because we're not trying to make the competition perfectly fair. The olympics don't force everyone to eat the same diets and do the same training regimen. But when they enter the competition, they do everything that can be done to ensure it's fair. If you want to eat sugar and watch TV all day then go to the olympics, nobody will stop you. Of course, you could also use steroids illegally and gain a slight but beatable advantage -- I can make an effective analogy out of that as well, if you need me to.

In this case, allowing MK allows people to gain an advantage in the counterpick system: Anyone other than MK can be counterpicked to a disadvantage. MK can be counterpicked to a neutral. Simply allowing him to be chosen gives those who choose him a small but distinct advantage.

If you want to make competition perfectly fair, then by all means we should all be the same character. I'd suggest MK, because of how versatile he is and how much player ability and mindgames can be allowed to shine compared to other characters who are more limited in their options.

And if technical ability isn't an aspect of player skill, I have no answer because there's nothing there to discuss -- we'd disagree on a fundamental aspect of what skill is. Is it all of it? No. But if you have the technical ability to play Diddy AND the mindgame ability to beat an equally skilled MK with him, then more is required of you than is required of your opponent (Who doesn't need as much technical ability).

Edit: If you really want to extend the analogy, here's what's going on: MK is 5 feet ahead of everyone. But then G&W, Marth, DDD, Falco, Snake, etc. are all even (Or within a foot or two of each other, less than MK is ahead of them all) -- they have various disadvantages that you can take advantage of and their races will be relatively even. Then everyone else starts 5, 10, 15, etc. feet back. Removing MK removes the one person way ahead, and improves the competitive scene because there are then a number of countries that get fair races even if they're still competitively advantaged to the rest. And that's really the best we can do without a game that can be patched to correct balance issues.

 

[aeghrur]

AZ respect counter -3: Brought up religion on Smashboards and compared it to metaknight. Lol.

 

[Praxis]

1. You fail to explain how me being Captain Falcon doesn't automatically mean every person I play has an unfair advantage over me, and that this is uncompetitive.

Because it's your fault you picked Captain Falcon.

Is it your fault you didn't pick MK? I guess so. We should all play MK then.

MK's five feet ahead of everyone, and Captain Falcon is five feet behind. In Falcon's case, nobody should pick Falcon. In MK's case, everyone who doesn't pick MK is not playing to win.

 

[salaboB]

MK's five feet ahead of everyone, and Captain Falcon is five feet behind. In Falcon's case, nobody should pick Falcon. In MK's case, everyone who doesn't pick MK is not playing to win.

Falcon's probably about 20 feet behind >.>

I clarified the analogy for pushing it further, basically MK is 5 feet ahead but then you get a set of 4-5 people (Snake, G&W, etc.) who are all close enough to even to call it fair -- we could argue all day about the exact order, though Snake is probably a foot or two ahead. In any case, having 5 countries that can all compete on equal ground is far superior to having one that's ahead of everyone else, so it's more competitive to ban MK.

 

[Dark Sonic]

Falcon's probably about 20 feet behind >.>

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=165954

29!!! Whut Nao!!?

lol, just kidding. Results can be funny (Sonic is 18th, just one more reason that results lie to you).

 

[salaboB]

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=165954

29!!! Whut Nao!!?

lol, just kidding. Results can be funny (Sonic is 18th, just one more reason that results lie to you).

20 feet behind is beatable, you just have to be better than everyone you're racing against

 

[brinboy789]

Compare Brawl stages to any of the other fighting game stages (Except obv. Melee) for their impact on matchups and overall gameplay.

Oh look, no comparison at all.

who cares? do stages even matter? its not like any stage besides rainbow cruise gives a drastic advantage to MK anyway. yun had advantage over everybody except arguably one neutral and she wasnt banned. why?

 

[Praxis]

who cares? do stages even matter? its not like any stage besides rainbow cruise gives a drastic advantage to MK anyway. yun had advantage over everybody except arguably one neutral and she wasnt banned. why?

I don't believe any stages disadvantage MK, either.

Unlike every other character in the game.

 

[Zankoku]

"She?" Ok, stop using other people's arguments, brinboy, you're just demonstrating your inability to think for yourself.

And yes, stages do matter quite a bit, considering how much time is put into striking, banning, and selecting them.

 

[aeghrur]

who cares? do stages even matter? its not like any stage besides rainbow cruise gives a drastic advantage to MK anyway. yun had advantage over everybody except arguably one neutral and she wasnt banned. why?

You don't understand do you?
If people in that game had a certain match up, it would stay that way. Stages didn't matter.
In brawl, if you have a bad match up, you could still get the advantage, or a better chance if you switched stages. However, that doesn't apply to metaknight.
Besides, different games, different situations. =/ Some tourny results of the game would help too. Is Yun dominating their tournies like Metaknight does to ours?

 

[brinboy789]

I don't believe any stages disadvantage MK, either.

Unlike every other character in the game.

stages dont really even matter. neutral stages dont really affect him. stop bringing stages up, its not even worth mentioning. he doesnt get a huge boost from any stage other then rainbow cruise, so ban RC and you should be fine. yun didnt have any bad matchups, and MK didnt either.

 

[aeghrur]

stages dont really even matter. neutral stages dont really affect him. stop bringing stages up, its not even worth mentioning. he doesnt get a huge boost from any stage other then rainbow cruise, so ban RC and you should be fine. yun didnt have any bad matchups, and MK didnt either.

Stages matter because every other character in this game is bad on some stage.
Mk, not so much. It's not the matter of him having HUGE advantages on EVERY stage, no, not at all. It's the problem that he has no BAD stages. Iunno about yoshi v meta match up and stages.
Oh, and

Brinboy sure knows how to make himself look like a tool =/

Lol, /adhominem.

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

who cares? do stages even matter? its not like any stage besides rainbow cruise gives a drastic advantage to MK anyway. yun had advantage over everybody except arguably one neutral and she wasnt banned. why?

Because in those games if you make a mistake anyone can win the match by that. In brawl you punish a mistake with 1 hit if its big enough.

Stop adopting arguments that don't work.

 

[Praxis]

stages dont really even matter. neutral stages dont really affect him. stop bringing stages up, its not even worth mentioning. he doesnt get a huge boost from any stage other then rainbow cruise, so ban RC and you should be fine. yun didnt have any bad matchups, and MK didnt either.

You're dumb. Stages matter heavily to every other character in the game. Stage counterpicking is an art.

Unless you're MK.

 

[Zankoku]

stages dont really even matter. neutral stages dont really affect him. stop bringing stages up, its not even worth mentioning. he doesnt get a huge boost from any stage other then rainbow cruise, so ban RC and you should be fine. yun didnt have any bad matchups, and MK didnt either.

SF 3rd Strike doesn't really even matter. The characters in that game don't really affect Brawl. Stop bringing that game up, you're not even worthy of mentioning it.

 

[HeroMystic]

stages dont really even matter. neutral stages dont really affect him. stop bringing stages up, its not even worth mentioning. he doesnt get a huge boost from any stage other then rainbow cruise, so ban RC and you should be fine. yun didnt have any bad matchups, and MK didnt either.

Dude, stages does matter. In fact, they're the very reason why characters pick certain stages just so they can get infinites, kill faster, or avoid chaingrabs/infinites (norfair and brinstar).

Know what you're talking about before speaking. You're losing a lot of credibility. If you had any in the first place.

 

[aeghrur]

Ankoku is like, the thread moderator, making sure our arguments are valid.

 

[LuigiKing]

stages dont really even matter. neutral stages dont really affect him. stop bringing stages up, its not even worth mentioning. he doesnt get a huge boost from any stage other then rainbow cruise, so ban RC and you should be fine. yun didnt have any bad matchups, and MK didnt either.

Do you have downsyndrome by chance?

 

[Anther]

What I'm saying is that any character that isn't pikachu should probably be banned. How come no one's listening to me >=[? I'm just posting in the spirit of competition and really feel like my words should have more weight than you people are putting on them. I'm sitting here throwing out numbers in the metric system and you insist on using pounds(lbs) and teaspoons? I'm just saying hear me out, but don't make me pout!

 

[Zankoku]

Stop being sore just 'cause the other characters all have way better costumes than Pikachu.