You have to admit, the goggles ARE kind of cute.
mad homo
mad homo
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The Official "Should/Will Metaknight be banned?" Thread (LISTEN TO THE SBR PODCAST!)
- Thread starter SamuraiPanda
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Anther, I can't believe you'd want sonic banned. Shame, shame. If you ban sonic, where will you get your steak? And who cares about lbs and kgs, steak is steak. This much steak is still this much steak.
Dark Sonic
Smash Hero
^^And if we go metric then I can't have a ton of steak anymore!
You can have a METRIC ton which is even MORE. :O AMAZING!
Genome Squirrel
Smash Apprentice
its ruins the effectiveness of putting people on your ban list if other people keep quoting them
i may have never played the game, but i at least know yun is a MAN
i may have never played the game, but i at least know yun is a MAN
Dark Sonic
Smash Hero
But then I have to say the word "METRIC," which is just burning needless calories when I could be eating Steak already!!
And I could also be having an Acre of steak!, which is even bigger and uses one less syllable!
Man, no wonder your a steak master. :OBut then I have to say the word "METRIC," which is just burning needless calories when I could be eating Steak already!!
And I could also be having an Acre of steak!, which is even bigger and uses one less syllable!
You have to remember, brinboy, that although MK is still advantaged at every stage, he can CP stages that are WORST for the opponent. Instead of either CPing your best stage or the opponent's worst, MK can just do the latter.
If you're the one against MK, though, all you can really do is CP FOR your character, not CP against MK.
I mean, you can do Yoshi's Island Melee and all, but you'll probably give yourself a bigger advantage by picking your good stages than the disadvantage you'd give MK by picking BF or Yoshi's.
Of course, if Yoshi's(melee) and BF ARE your favorites, then go ahead, but most characters do better on others.
If you're the one against MK, though, all you can really do is CP FOR your character, not CP against MK.
I mean, you can do Yoshi's Island Melee and all, but you'll probably give yourself a bigger advantage by picking your good stages than the disadvantage you'd give MK by picking BF or Yoshi's.
Of course, if Yoshi's(melee) and BF ARE your favorites, then go ahead, but most characters do better on others.
JesiahTEG
Smash Master
MD/VA is good but I'm not about to lose to 30 people from there lmao. I know you weren't talking to me but I felt the need to reply to this because you lost to Ness as Sheik in tournament.
Master Raven
Smash Master
JesiahTEG
Smash Master
That shouldn't matter at all when banning a character. It still takes away from the competitive aspect of the game, and that's what we do in tournaments...play competitively.
Also, it doesn't make Smash more interesting, you are removing a character. That's one less character people get to use in tournaments. What about the TONS of people that main MK? Their character isn't broken enough to be banned, but he's being taken away from them because other people aren't good enough to beat Metaknight. How is that fair to them at all? It's not.
The Real Inferno
Smash Hero
What's "fair" to MK mains is not an issue and shouldn't even be considered. People's feelings have no place in competitive gaming. The only things that should be considered are the well-being of the competitive community as a whole (the purpose of any ban is to strengthen the competitive community and ensure longevity of the product) and facts from both sides. Fairness is not an argument one way or the other.
The theory is that if you make it more interesting, you'll get more people to join/stay/not got to Melee, and then having those extra people will help progress the metagame faster and make up for the competitiveness lost when you first ban MK.
See, you have to think butterfly effect-esque way.
Although I personally don't think enough people will join/stay/not go to Melee to compensate, but we have no actual estimates.
Genome Squirrel
Smash Apprentice
theorycraft again ...
i thought both sides gave up ...
and that means meta is unbanned ...
let's all just agree substantial evidence can't win
because you could theorycraft all evidence to death
so lets all join together and let this topic die and leave with sour grapes
i thought both sides gave up ...
and that means meta is unbanned ...
let's all just agree substantial evidence can't win
because you could theorycraft all evidence to death
so lets all join together and let this topic die and leave with sour grapes
Thats the problem, if we do nothing and quit, anti-ban wins.
To be a true stalemate, we must theorycraft this to death.
The Real Inferno
Smash Hero
You know, some of us actually went to the trouble of getting -empirical- evidence about this subject instead of sitting around theorycrafting XD
Tyser
Smash Champion
Big fat chode = MK.
okiyama
Smash Ace
About your second paragraph, I argue that because of the huge MASS of MK players there are actually fewer characters being played than if there was no MK because as panda stated everyone needs a counterpick for MK so they pick him up. So your point is moot.
JesiahTEG
Smash Master
I agree with you and I think you're missing my point. Without fairness at all, we would not ban MK. He's not bannable. He is not unbeatable. He is not god like. He is a great character, the best in Brawl, but nowhere near banworthy.
Going by what SHOULD be done in regards to everything competitive gaming has gone through, MK should not be banned.
But, all the people in this community don't feel like practicing as hard as they can, travelling, getting better, gaining experience. They don't feel like spending hours studying how to beat MK. They don't feel like PUTTING IN HARD WORK to beat him. When they lose to an MK, they blame it on the character instead of saying, "Wow, I should have kept my shield up and not got hit by that Dsmash." or "I have to stop rolling behind MK and getting Dsmashed."
So, because they want the game to be more FAIR and easier and the character selection more diverse, they choose to ban MK. Which is wrong, because they are letting personal feelings get in the way of what should actually be done, which is not banning MK.
I bring fairness into this as a response to anyone that wants to ban MK, because they have already brought fairness and personal feelings into this. If you want to ban him because he's too hard for you, then I ask you to put yourselves in MK mains shoes. You are taking away their character, for some people the sole reason they play Brawl.
If you choose to ban MK then you should have no choice but to acknowledge other people's points of view and feelings too, because you're already doing something based off of fairness and personal feelings.
So? Let them do what they want...Let them pick up MK. That does not make him any worse or better as a character, the point is he is not good enough to be banned. Even if 100% of the people in the U.S. picked him up right now, the character does not change. He is still beatable by many characters, and therefore should not warrant a ban.
Now if you want to bring personal feelings into this and disregard the rules of competitive gaming and what SHOULD be done, then you would ban him to save the community...But that doesn't make it right. We're twisting and bending the rules to save the community and make it more fun for people, which makes sense but we're still breaking the rules.
I don't believe fairness is actually an issue with MK. M2K, Azen, Dojo, and other good players will still win regardless of if MK is banned or not.
The problem is...
O=non-MK, M=MK
OOOOOOOOMO
OOOMOOMOOM
OOMOMMMOOM
MMOMMOMMMOMM
"I liked Melee better... I mean, Marth wasn't that bad..." "yeah lets play Melee again" "Me too" "I'm over Smash now..."MMMO"Where'd everybody go?"
JesiahTEG
Smash Master
Like I said, people want to ban him to make the community happier and better. That's a logical reason, but it doesn't make it OK anyways. Think about it this way.
In 2 years from now, let's say everyone quit Smash because of MK and each region only had 3 players. The community would be gone, but the people that are still here are competitors, people that realize that the game is fine with MK in it...People that have either switched to MK, or practiced really hard to beat him with their characters.
I mean, I guess if people were REALLY going to quit Smash because of MK, I'd have to say I would ban MK, to save our community...But A.) I don't think it would ever come down to that,
B.) Sometimes I wonder whether I would rather be in a tiny community full of people that don't complain and just work hard and get better, or a big community with hundreds of people that take the easy way out and ban MK instead of just working hard to beat him.
In 2 years from now, let's say everyone quit Smash because of MK and each region only had 3 players. The community would be gone, but the people that are still here are competitors, people that realize that the game is fine with MK in it...People that have either switched to MK, or practiced really hard to beat him with their characters.
I mean, I guess if people were REALLY going to quit Smash because of MK, I'd have to say I would ban MK, to save our community...But A.) I don't think it would ever come down to that,
B.) Sometimes I wonder whether I would rather be in a tiny community full of people that don't complain and just work hard and get better, or a big community with hundreds of people that take the easy way out and ban MK instead of just working hard to beat him.
JesiahTEG
Smash Master
True, but if people just started training and practicing without banning MK or switching to him, pfft...We'd learn just as fast.
Look at NYC. Snakeee plays ZSS, does amazing vs MK.
Bum plays DK, does amazing vs MK.
Ninjalink plays like, every char...Does amazing vs MK.
And MK isn't banned in NYC. People just need to suck it up, don't switch to MK and practice with their characters and think of strategies and get better. And if they do switch, then he still shouldn't be banned because the character doesn't get any better. It's our fault as a community that everyone switches to MK, not the game's fault.
Look at NYC. Snakeee plays ZSS, does amazing vs MK.
Bum plays DK, does amazing vs MK.
Ninjalink plays like, every char...Does amazing vs MK.
And MK isn't banned in NYC. People just need to suck it up, don't switch to MK and practice with their characters and think of strategies and get better. And if they do switch, then he still shouldn't be banned because the character doesn't get any better. It's our fault as a community that everyone switches to MK, not the game's fault.
It only takes away from the competitive aspect of the game if you define competitive as not banning anything.
Genome Squirrel
Smash Apprentice
do you mean ankoku's list, or comparing the top place winners at hobo 11 i.e. and which characters they used?
This is not the primary reason he's being discussed for a ban.
...I'd like you to point to the last serious pro-ban post saying MK was unbeatable or he should be banned because people can't beat him. (And by that I mean someone giving some evidence for their position, and not just someone who's serious about what they're posting >.>)
In other words, quit knocking down strawmen.
JesiahTEG
Smash Master
It's irrelevant then. The only reason he should be banned is if he's unbeatable. If there are any other reasons, they are irrelevant and he shouldn't be banned.
If only we could....
People, when they practice, normally forget everything they said here about the "good of the community" and try to get themselves as good as possible. Which means switching to MK and learning fast.
We're not good at doing tasks for the greater good.
But thats still our fault, not the games, so at the highest level of the metagame, characters still have a great chance against MK with enough practice.
And Olimar will pwn with his perfect camping anyways.
This is opinion.
I will counter with opinion of my own:
He should be banned if the game is more competitive with him banned. Therefore, since nobody can demonstrate why the game will be less competitive with him banned, he should be banned.
JesiahTEG
Smash Master
Fair enough, but my opinion holds much, much more weight than yours. Looking at the history of competitive fighters AND competitive gaming in general, my criteria is widely held as the only, 100% criteria in determining a ban. Your criteria has, as far as I can tell, a total of 0 times ever determined anything in the history of competitive gaming. Competitiveness has nothing to do with banning.
I respect your opinion but it holds no weight compared to everything that's ever happened in competitive gaming, specifically fighters.
I respect your opinion but it holds no weight compared to everything that's ever happened in competitive gaming, specifically fighters.
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Personally, I'm thinking about it. Melee has never looked better. I can counterpick!
There's also the touchy topic of Japan and their soft-bans though, mainly Old Saget. Its a soft ban, but thats basically a Japanese hard ban.
Oh so ironic; I thought this in the beginning, and then the community persuaded me otherwise.
Brawl has issues other fighters don't, most notably stage advantages and disadvantages.
You may look at these other fighters all you want, but when a 50:50 matchup on a neutral stage can shift even though both players stay using the same characters, your opinion's basis suddenly looks a whole lot less relevent.
Yours is based on other games to provide your definitions. Mine is based on Brawl and its unique aspects. Which is better for this situation?
The Real Inferno
Smash Hero
by empirical evidence, I mean I've gone out of my way to see what happens in environments with and without MK. I've looked at placings and actually spoken to the people about how they feel. Now, as a TO my job is to keep my competitive community flourishing. This means I also have to keep them happy. Since an overwhelming majority of my players wish for Meta to be banned, and also expressed a great deal more satisfaction with a MK banned tournament, it would make sense for me to ban him. Of course, this makes our region -weaker- than other if I did so. So I don't. Because it doesn't matter how they feel, it matters what results we can get on a national scale.
However, it's also our job as the hub of the competitive community to think about the longevity of our product. As much as hurt feelings don't matter, the community itself as a whole does. If Meta Knight's presence were guarenteed to hurt us in the long run, it would behoov us to do away with him swiftly and efficiently to prevent negative effects. (on a side note, you can't argue Meta is not broken. Any character that has a plethora of advantages and moves over others, is obviously broken. He isn't the -only- broken thing in this game though, but it's obvious he is.) Unbeatable is not the only reason for a ban, or we would never ban items or stupid stages (I'm quite fond of Hyrule Temple actually). Things can be banned for that reason, and should, but it's not the only reason to do so. For us, the reason we need to be looking at is the possibility of long term effects on our community.
However, it's also our job as the hub of the competitive community to think about the longevity of our product. As much as hurt feelings don't matter, the community itself as a whole does. If Meta Knight's presence were guarenteed to hurt us in the long run, it would behoov us to do away with him swiftly and efficiently to prevent negative effects. (on a side note, you can't argue Meta is not broken. Any character that has a plethora of advantages and moves over others, is obviously broken. He isn't the -only- broken thing in this game though, but it's obvious he is.) Unbeatable is not the only reason for a ban, or we would never ban items or stupid stages (I'm quite fond of Hyrule Temple actually). Things can be banned for that reason, and should, but it's not the only reason to do so. For us, the reason we need to be looking at is the possibility of long term effects on our community.
JesiahTEG
Smash Master
Don't be silly. Pick Snake and win on Neutrals and most counterpicks.
Pick Lucario and use all of his advantages.
Pick Olimar and play very defensively, very well.
There are more too.
None of those have been demonstrated to be overall advantaged. MK is still the smartest starting option and best one to switch to after you win to minimize counterpick potential.
Have other competitive fighters had to do things like banning items, stages, and stalling?
The Smash community is already unique among fighters for its bans to increase competitiveness.
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