The Official "Should/Will Metaknight be banned?" Thread (LISTEN TO THE SBR PODCAST!)

[JesiahTEG]

Considering your points are almost entirely opinion, I am utterly unsurprised you choose to mock when you can't disprove.

What I've given you is nothing but fact sir unless I've stated otherwise. Just because you refuse to accept it doesn't mean anything.

Spam was right, I shouldn't have wasted my time trying to convince people that have no idea what they're talking about. I admit defeat Spam.

I'm done here. Peace homies.

Also M2K can beat Chillin w/Falcon? WTF? HUH? He just TOLD you he barely beats him with Metaknight...W/e I'm done lmao. Cya.

 

[The Real Inferno]

Sigh. This is what gets people nowhere. I dont even argue exclusively for one side or the other.

 

[aeghrur]

This thread is filled with hominems.

 

[The Real Inferno]

Show me an argument that took place on the internet without ad hominem. I would wager you cannot. Thats a natural course of things.

 

[Dark.Pch]

I think the question that should be asked is who do the top meta's in the nation lose to and why?

 

[The Real Inferno]

Well I answered that question a bit of a ways back. Diddy tends to do the best overall. As to why, perhaps Diddy has a good matchup on Meta, there's certainly quite a bit of empirical evidence to support it.

 

[Dark.Pch]

the only Diddy that I know that is getting at Meta is NinjaLink. if he is the only one. So it is saying that the others Need to be up there to beat meta. if lack of players on the levels on NL diddy, it shows that people just arent working hard enough.

That is what I am seeing atleast.

 

[aeghrur]

Show me an argument that took place on the internet without ad hominem. I would wager you cannot. Thats a natural course of things.

http://www.debate.com/debates/Should-prayer-be-allowed-in-school/1/

This count? =/

 

[The Real Inferno]

There's Hylian(non-tournament), NinjaLink, Royal Nynja, have victories over M2K's metaknight with Diddy. There are other great Diddy Kong's I've seen that seem to deal with their Meta Knight's effectively such as Le_Thien.

Edit: I was referring to these informal arguments, not an organized debate such as that. Heh.

Speaking of debates I'm still waiting on that podcast download. It interests me greatly.

 

[judge!]

i think shortly diddy will be the only counter to mk there just has to be more diddy pros out there.

 

[judge!]

i would like to know if the best diddy can beat the beat m2k. cause out of all the mk players i see the only char they tend to loose to is diddy kong. hell iv even picked diddy kong and beaton some mk players with him and im not good with diddy.

 

[aeghrur]

I was referring to these informal arguments, not an organized debate such as that. Heh.

Speaking of debates I'm still waiting on that podcast download. It interests me greatly.

Hehehe. Loopholes.
And I'm waiting for the podcast too. :O I only listened near the end where someone was like EVERYBODY, STFU. lol.

 

[Praxis]

This is opinion.

I will counter with opinion of my own:

He should be banned if the game is more competitive with him banned. Therefore, since nobody can demonstrate why the game will be less competitive with him banned, he should be banned.

Fair enough, but my opinion holds much, much more weight than yours. Looking at the history of competitive fighters AND competitive gaming in general, my criteria is widely held as the only, 100% criteria in determining a ban. Your criteria has, as far as I can tell, a total of 0 times ever determined anything in the history of competitive gaming. Competitiveness has nothing to do with banning.

I respect your opinion but it holds no weight compared to everything that's ever happened in competitive gaming, specifically fighters.

Actually, Jesiah- I think it'd be fair to say that salaboB's opinion is in line with Japan's criteria for banning (Japan ONLY soft-ban's, however), and yours is in line with the traditional US one.

Japan banned Old Sagat because he limited the metagame too much.

His opinion actually does hold weight. You're simply coming from two different viewpoints.

Further, it's worth noting that Smash is a game that was not designed for competitive play, and has been turned into it by the community. In the process, we have been forced to ban many things to make it a competitive game- a number of stages (is there really anything wrong with walk-off ledges, other than the fact that they make the game stupid and unfun? Or Hanenbow and Hyrule Temple, for the same reasons), and even items.

Smash is unique. We have to ban things to make the game more competitive. It's when it reaches the realm of characters that people get upset- they don't give a second thought to stages and items because other games don't have these things to worry about. But we have set a precedent of banning things to make the game more competitive, and you cannot deny that just because other games have the luxury of not having to.

 

[The Real Inferno]

i think shortly diddy will be the only counter to mk there just has to be more diddy pros out there.

I wouldn't say that. I have a decent level of success with several characters. at HOBO 11 my Game and Watch did fine against DSF's Meta. I've also had good results with Snake and ROB for taking on Meta Knights. I've recently begun to refine my snake for this task as my experimentations with him have been satisfactory so far. My Wolf tends to inconsistently well against Meta Knights, but then I tend to play Wolf far dfferently from most players. I'm more than willing to let all of these character camp until the sun goes down if it means keeping me at an advantage.

 

[LeeHarris]

the only Diddy that I know that is getting at Meta is NinjaLink. if he is the only one. So it is saying that the others Need to be up there to beat meta. if lack of players on the levels on NL diddy, it shows that people just arent working hard enough.

That is what I am seeing atleast.

NL is extremely inconsistent and loses to MK players more than he defeats them. His victories against M2K/Omni were due to matchup inexperience.

There's Hylian, NinjaLink, Royal Nynja, all three have victories over M2K's metaknight with Diddy. There are other great Diddy Kong's I've seen that seem to deal with their Meta Knight's effectively such as Le_Thien.

Edit: I was referring to these informal arguments, not an organized debate such as that. Heh.

Speaking of debates I'm still waiting on that podcast download. It interests me greatly.

Hylian never beat M2K's MK in tournament. It was a friendly, which is never taken into consideration for something like a character ban.

 

[The Real Inferno]

NL is extremely inconsistent and loses to MK players more than he defeats them. His victories against M2K/Omni were due to matchup inexperience.



Hylian never beat M2K's MK in tournament. It was a friendly, which is never taken into consideration for something like a character ban.

Ah my mistake. I had heard that he also bested him in a tournament at some point.

 

[Dark.Pch]

i think shortly diddy will be the only counter to mk there just has to be more diddy pros out there.

The same can be said for every character. You would have to gather the best of all characters in the nation and pinned them against the top metas and see the ending results. Start with the top tiers and work your way down.

 

[salaboB]

I wouldn't say that. I have a decent level of success with several characters. at HOBO 11 my Game and Watch did fine against DSF's Meta.

Did he let you use the turtle against him?

 

[The Real Inferno]

Did he let you use the turtle against him?

I was mostly using the turtle for edge guarding rather than approaching and eating a grounded shuttle loop.

 

[Iwan]

You missed a big one. I'll use an analogy that someone else brought up. MK is like Jesus, he is here to bring love, peace, and ultimately make our community a better, stronger place. Unfortunately, Jesus (MK) is misunderstood by some people. Jesus is a great guy, he could be the most powerful guy in the world, and this scares some people about what type of changes Jesus may bring, that the old status quo would be upset. As the number of followers grew, so to did the number of people who wanted to kill him. Then, someone who was once in line with Jesus (MK), decides one day that he doesn't like all the attention Jesus gets, and so this person, Judas (Overswarm), decides to throw Jesus to the masses and have him killed.

In conclusion, banning MK is like killing off Jesus.

Sooo...I'm sorry AZ, because I have the utmost respect for you, both as a person and a smasher. I've always been a huge fan of yours, followed you in melee, your contributions to MLG, and now with brawl. But....

This is without question the dumbest **** I've ever, ever heard. Ever. If anything this post will contribute to metaknight being banned.

You might want to edit that post.
Or not. Just a suggestion.

 

[salaboB]

I was mostly using the turtle for edge guarding rather than approaching and eating a grounded shuttle loop.

Fair enough, then. If your match had been before people were utilizing the shuttle loop to punch through the bair it wouldn't have been a good representation of the current known matchup.

 

[The Real Inferno]

Shuttle loop makes it hard to approach with short hopped backair, but it by no means eliminates your approaches entirely. It just takes away the one everyone is most comfortable with. It's also worth remembering, G&W is more than content to allow MK to approach him instead, rather than rush headlong into the ****.

 

[-Mars-]

Didn't AZ beat Inui in tournament?

 

[DraKmoN001]

NL is extremely inconsistent and loses to MK players more than he defeats them. His victories against M2K/Omni were due to matchup inexperience.

...

Huh?

No. He lost ONE time to Inui, and it was perpetuated as all the evidence in the world to undo his trend of winning against MK while using Diddy. Essentially, NL finishes usually top 5 at tournaments (including large regional tournaments) and he has only lost to one MK since the beginning of August (oh, btw, he won tournaments the last two weekends in NY).

He has beaten M2K's MK, Azen's MK, Fortes MK on more than one occasion, Omni's MK, Shadow's MK, and then a few other decent MK players in the NY/NJ region, plus all the low level MK's anyone is bound to run into early in a bracket.

No MK/other character can say they have accomplished that, and no other player can say they have accomplished that. Azen is the closest, but I don't think he has ever beaten M2K 2-0 using Lucario against MK.

What data are you two using?

 

[Valdens]

Iwan, I thought it was the most logical anti-ban argument I've heard in a while, LOL.

 

[aeghrur]

Didn't AZ beat Inui in tournament?

No, he lost like, 4-3 or something. =/
He's saying it was a loss, but it was a close one.

 

[Overswarm]

He also had an agreement beforehand where Inui wouldn't ban FD and would only take him to neutrals.

::rolls eyes::

 

[NinjaLink]

NL is extremely inconsistent and loses to MK players more than he defeats them. His victories against M2K/Omni were due to matchup inexperience.

This is BS. I'm Like 30-2 vs MK. U dont know my tourney records for u to judge. I Only lost to plank and Inui. THATS IT!

U cant pull the matchup card cause i beat the same MKs in NY over and over. I beat Azen's MK also.

...


What data are you two using?

I told AZ my tourney records against MK.

 

[DraKmoN001]

I told AZ my tourney records against MK.

Hmm. And it seems as though LeeHarris is not getting your matchup information from you.

So from what source would he be getting your matchup information from? Or maybe his interpretation of your matchup information is different? Perhaps I am asking something dumb but I am genuinely interested in the answers.

 

[JesiahTEG]

This is BS. I'm Like 30-2 vs MK. U dont know my tourney records for u to judge. I Only lost to plank and Inui. THATS IT!

U cant pull the matchup card cause i beat the same MKs in NY over and over. I beat Azen's MK also.



I told AZ my tourney records against MK.

Dang son, way to hunt em down and end it.

 

[Vyse]

Sooo my area is now 'Softbanning' MK. It's not too bad since there's only one dominant MK main (Also happens to be Australia's best player), but it also really annoys me too.

Last night, I had Amaterasu (Said top player), myself, ACCELERATE (A ROB main who seemed to be arguing for the ban ala Overswarm) and Sieg (Another pro-banner) in a convo and we pretty much bashed heads with each other over the matter. Replace ACCELERATE with Overswarm and me with AlphaZealot/Umbreon and that was pretty much it for like an hour. Two differing opinions that couldn't come to a conclusion they could agree on (except that I accept that MK breaks the counter pick system).

It really annoys me that it's come to this in my state. That Amaterasu is going to be bullied out of using his character, but there's very little I can do about it.

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=5772216&postcount=1057

: /

Are there any other places like this? I suppose it's something that doesn't really happen in America I guess. If people wanna win, they'll use the best character they can.

 

[salaboB]

Dang son, way to hunt em down and end it.

Weren't you done in this thread?

I mean, I have no problems with whoever posting that feels like it but if people say they're going to leave they ought to at least take a break for a few hours.

Spoiler

Kinda remind me of brinboy otherwise...

 

[NinjaLink]

Hmm. And it seems as though LeeHarris is not getting your matchup information from you.

So from what source would he be getting your matchup information from? Or maybe his interpretation of your matchup information is different? Perhaps I am asking something dumb but I am genuinely interested in the answers.

I dont kno. I never spoke to him and....yea. No one tracks me down especially since NY records are records that ARENT RECORDED. But i kno who i beat. And i dont always use diddy. I use ROB in the matchup at times and win. Along with Lucario.

 

[salaboB]

I dont kno. I never spoke to him and....yea. No one tracks me down especially since NY records are records that ARENT RECORDED. But i kno who i beat. And i dont always use diddy. I use ROB in the matchup at times and win. Along with Lucario.

Considering ROB vs. MK is pretty certainly not in ROB's favor (Take it up with OS if you disagree) doesn't this indicate a lot of your Diddy wins are vs. MK's who you're just a lot better than?

 

[NinjaLink]

apparently 90% of MKs are garbz and uses him because hes easy lol

As for Rob vs MK, i never saw OS' vids vs mks so i wouldnt kno his troubles.
But from my experience its like snakes vs mks but not exactly. I can win as long as i dont get gimped.

 

[Ho-oh]

MK has some cons, yes, but he has 8432268618345684716486161 more pros, so he really should be banned.

 

[OverLade]

That shouldn't matter at all when banning a character. It still takes away from the competitive aspect of the game, and that's what we do in tournaments...play competitively.

Also, it doesn't make Smash more interesting, you are removing a character. That's one less character people get to use in tournaments. What about the TONS of people that main MK? Their character isn't broken enough to be banned, but he's being taken away from them because other people aren't good enough to beat Metaknight. How is that fair to them at all? It's not.

But that would be the case if Metaknight wasn't the reason brawls metagame is stagnating. Half the metaknight mains out there aren't even legit, and simply picked him up because they couldn't win with their own character. Tons of people are only using Metaknight because of how good he is (and I understand that completely, but unlike other good characters, he's so good that it disrupts the progress of the metagame).

I don't support his ban because he's unbeatable, but because it would make the metagame better if he was banned. Brawl would be the most balanced smash game without metaknight.

 

[The Real Inferno]

MK has some cons, yes, but he has 8432268618345684716486161 more pros, so he really should be banned.

Holy Jesus look at that statistic, this will change the whole competitive opinion, we have to get the news out.

Edit: Awesome, someone is using My Falco Bread picture for an avatar I am so honored.

 

[OverLade]

Holy Jesus look at that statistic, this will change the whole competitive opinion, we have to get the news out.

Edit: Awesome, someone is using My Falco Bread picture for an avatar I am so honored.

You made this?

Dude I ****ing love this picture. I saw it, and I was like "top tier". Would you mind if I made a shirt?

 

[Zeallyx]

meta knight shouldn't be banned
for the simple reason everyone can play/main him
nothing stops you from playing meta knight yourself

so even though I have alot of trouble against good meta knights as a falcon main, I think meta knight should not be banned, he is a part of the game, and should stay a part of the game