Turbo Ether
Smash Master
- Joined
- Apr 12, 2006
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- 3,601
A lot of Snake's don't grenade camp properly or gay enough.
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The Official "Should/Will Metaknight be banned?" Thread (LISTEN TO THE SBR PODCAST!)
- Thread starter SamuraiPanda
- Start date
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I don't think people are unfamiliar with MK's playstyle, at this point.
Blah blah blah blah blah, player skill this, player skill that.
It's the player's fault we're trying to ban metaknight
it's the players fault they suck vs metaknight
it's the players fault they never play snake right
it's the players fault they never perfect camp with olimar
it's the players fault there's no metaknight counter
it's the players fault that there's no techniques against metaknight
it's the players fault that other characters metagames aren't progressing. >_>
Um, pointless rant over.
It's the player's fault we're trying to ban metaknight
it's the players fault they suck vs metaknight
it's the players fault they never play snake right
it's the players fault they never perfect camp with olimar
it's the players fault there's no metaknight counter
it's the players fault that there's no techniques against metaknight
it's the players fault that other characters metagames aren't progressing. >_>
Um, pointless rant over.
An aggressive MK eats grenade camping alive.
Grenade spam period however does alter the way MK has to play as short hop aerial and tilt approaches explode the grenades( as well as the glide attack and all B moves except a non aggressive DC.)
In most cases against such a stage control and range disadvantage, Mk's best options are aerial approaches and Kamikaze-> gimp.
Both of which can result in an early up-tilt death if the MK player is not skilled.
55:45 is pretty accurate in my experience.
Grenade spam period however does alter the way MK has to play as short hop aerial and tilt approaches explode the grenades( as well as the glide attack and all B moves except a non aggressive DC.)
In most cases against such a stage control and range disadvantage, Mk's best options are aerial approaches and Kamikaze-> gimp.
Both of which can result in an early up-tilt death if the MK player is not skilled.
55:45 is pretty accurate in my experience.
adumbrodeus
Smash Legend
I don't care if M2K disagrees. He's a really good player, not an omniscient.
Have him defend it logically, as of yet, nobody has been able to adequately explain away MK's range and rushdown advantage.
Ps. I was saying MK's advantage WAY before tournament results changed to reflect this.
UltiMario
Out of Obscurity
I dont know if this HAS or has not been said before. If it has, then excuse me for not reading through 625 pages.
As I said, there are 625pages of jus Debating on how MK matches up, whether to ban him or not, and people give either Good or STUPID @$$ reasons on why or why not he should be banned. I'm hoping this is a smart one.
Now, people want to ban Mk because he is clearly the best character in the game. He has no bad matchups, and if you could make one, it probably couldn't be worse than 45|55, not giving very little theorized advantage in the opponent's favor. People are sick and tired of getting Mach Tornado'd, Daired, Dsmashed, and just Losing all over the place from MK's superioirtiy. People think this is simple because MK himself is just a error in programming, and made him much too superior in every way by Sakurai himself and his selfish Kirby Series Buffing. No. I disagree.
It is not WHAT MK can do, its WHEN MK can do it. He has reahced nearly the peak of his Metagame, he has almost fully devoloped in the metagame, and has an advantage against all the other characters because people can use him EASIER and MORE EFFECTIVELY than anyone else. Now, here are two Perspectives on this issue.
Pro-Ban Perspective: We SHOULD ban MK because his Metagame is much more developed that a MEtagame such as Luigi (I use him as an exaple, as I see Much unused potential in him). Luigi Players are in low numbers, so he doesnt do well in tounreys because there ARENT enough Luigis out there. Nobody can really tap into that potential easily. But MK, you can just Pick up and be on high competitive levels in a month or two, where Luigi could take until 2010 for player to get good tactics with him! Ban MK until everyone catches up!
Anti-Ban: While MK may be easy to pick up, this does not mean unbanning him after a long time will allow players to just pick him up and throw him in at Competitve level immidiately. The new MK mains will complain they lose so much because they are very rusty with him, and far from back to where thay could be now. You should just leave MK alone and allow the other metagames to develop wwhile MK staysvirtually the same in the Metagame! This will eventually drop is scores!
Overview: These are arguments that I made up for my ideas towards Pro and Anti-Ban. Both have their advantages, and problems. The problems in one are pointed out in the other, and more. While Pro-Ban causes MK's to wear down and rust, they could cause "Illigal" Tournies with MK allowing rules and the like, and TONS of spam and whining. I feel like We could have a Gamefaqs attack, with the idiots that take competitive play with a grain of salt. If they werent already salt. SPAMSPAMSPAM!
The Anti-Ban takes things down and lets MK rule for a long time. This gives very little chance for metagmes to devolop, seeing as all MK tounries may happen, and Multi-Character Metagames could be dumped altogether. If that doesn't happen, MK's score will drop, but not his teir position. Also, his Metagame could drastically change with one major discovery, and it could ruin The ANti and Maybe event he Pro-Ban arguments.
This is just my opinion, and I have no backstory on Meta Knight debates at all. I've never even looked at this thread before now, as I was brutally disgsted by the Ban discussion that might take place here.
Discuss.
As I said, there are 625pages of jus Debating on how MK matches up, whether to ban him or not, and people give either Good or STUPID @$$ reasons on why or why not he should be banned. I'm hoping this is a smart one.
Now, people want to ban Mk because he is clearly the best character in the game. He has no bad matchups, and if you could make one, it probably couldn't be worse than 45|55, not giving very little theorized advantage in the opponent's favor. People are sick and tired of getting Mach Tornado'd, Daired, Dsmashed, and just Losing all over the place from MK's superioirtiy. People think this is simple because MK himself is just a error in programming, and made him much too superior in every way by Sakurai himself and his selfish Kirby Series Buffing. No. I disagree.
It is not WHAT MK can do, its WHEN MK can do it. He has reahced nearly the peak of his Metagame, he has almost fully devoloped in the metagame, and has an advantage against all the other characters because people can use him EASIER and MORE EFFECTIVELY than anyone else. Now, here are two Perspectives on this issue.
Pro-Ban Perspective: We SHOULD ban MK because his Metagame is much more developed that a MEtagame such as Luigi (I use him as an exaple, as I see Much unused potential in him). Luigi Players are in low numbers, so he doesnt do well in tounreys because there ARENT enough Luigis out there. Nobody can really tap into that potential easily. But MK, you can just Pick up and be on high competitive levels in a month or two, where Luigi could take until 2010 for player to get good tactics with him! Ban MK until everyone catches up!
Anti-Ban: While MK may be easy to pick up, this does not mean unbanning him after a long time will allow players to just pick him up and throw him in at Competitve level immidiately. The new MK mains will complain they lose so much because they are very rusty with him, and far from back to where thay could be now. You should just leave MK alone and allow the other metagames to develop wwhile MK staysvirtually the same in the Metagame! This will eventually drop is scores!
Overview: These are arguments that I made up for my ideas towards Pro and Anti-Ban. Both have their advantages, and problems. The problems in one are pointed out in the other, and more. While Pro-Ban causes MK's to wear down and rust, they could cause "Illigal" Tournies with MK allowing rules and the like, and TONS of spam and whining. I feel like We could have a Gamefaqs attack, with the idiots that take competitive play with a grain of salt. If they werent already salt. SPAMSPAMSPAM!
The Anti-Ban takes things down and lets MK rule for a long time. This gives very little chance for metagmes to devolop, seeing as all MK tounries may happen, and Multi-Character Metagames could be dumped altogether. If that doesn't happen, MK's score will drop, but not his teir position. Also, his Metagame could drastically change with one major discovery, and it could ruin The ANti and Maybe event he Pro-Ban arguments.
This is just my opinion, and I have no backstory on Meta Knight debates at all. I've never even looked at this thread before now, as I was brutally disgsted by the Ban discussion that might take place here.
Discuss.
BTW, for anyone not understnading the GameFAQs attack thing, its when everyone on GFAQs would make an accoutn here and spam the hell out of the forums in a blind fury. IT CAN BE DONE, IVE SEEN SIMILAR THINGS ON OTHER FORUMS.
ShadowLink84
Smash Hero
oh, and notable people also explained Sonic's game.
notable people explained Snake's advantage over MK right?
Who acresif the person is notable or not as long as the argument is VALID.
m2k's argument is m2k's argument. It is not automatically correct just because M2K makes it.
Yeah he's well, renown, yes he has experience.
But if he cannot back up his point, his word becomes just as baseless as a casual stating items should be on.
I'm not talking about M2k (alone). There are some other top MKs / Snakes (m2k, teh_spamerer, inui, infernoomni, jesiah...) who are certain that it's in Snake's favour and the reasons are much better than the stupid "zofmg MK fucking gimps Snake all teh time ololololol" (which typically comes from pro-ban dudes). The reasons are convincing enough...there just isn't any video material I can think off
MK's dtilt will outreach a grenade explosion.
Linkshot
Smash Hero
I don't find much trouble with MK. I think beating him is all in player skill. You just have to know MK and know your opponent. Then again, there's only one MK in Ottawa. Marth is the big threat here.
Just saying I don't see the big deal. It's the snowball effect. One person won a tourney with him, so multiple people picked him up and some of those got good enough to win, etc, and now almost everybody plays MK and neglects the other characters.
MK can be countered. Just not as severely as Yoshi can. As for whornado:
You have a shield. Use it.
DraKmoN001
Smash Apprentice
- Joined
- Jun 16, 2003
- Messages
- 88
You sure? The splash area from one of the Grenades tends to be rather misleading from my experiences, much like Din's Fire's splash area is bigger than the actual graphic. If you have a video you could link to show that MK's dtilt does outrange Grenades, that'd be awesome.
ShadowLink84
Smash Hero
Somehow I find it highly unlikely that you have never seen adumbrodeus , myself or several other smashers logical reasonsing for Snake not having the advantage.I'm not talking about M2k (alone). There are some other top MKs / Snakes (m2k, teh_spamerer, inui, infernoomni, jesiah...) who are certain that it's in Snake's favour and the reasons are much better than the stupid "zofmg MK fucking gimps Snake all teh time ololololol" (which typically comes from pro-ban dudes). The reasons are convincing enough...there just isn't any video material I can think off
Oh, tell me
The same again can be said about Diddy can't it?
Perhaps not to the extent it can about MK due to his popularity but Diddy is not that uncommon of a character that a player of M2K's stature should lose just due to unfamiliarity of a character play style.
Unless you meant NL's specific play style, in which case although we could contribute his loss to being unfamiliar with the play style,we would be better off discussing banning players instead of characters.
At which point he'll usually be eating a f-tilt or u-tilt if the grenade drop was a setup.
Iwan
Smash Ace
Okay cool. lol that's a much better wording of said analogy. I think a lot of people misinterpreted you (there was seriously internet buzz about that post going around xD). Much better point made, and yes...sarcasm is hard to detect on the internet lol.
ShadowLink84
Smash Hero
The primary reasons that people often declare that Snake has an advantage is his ability to grenade camp and remove many of MK's safe options. This is not necessarily true because while grenade camping does help to reduce MK's aggressive behavior, it does not necessarily stop him from approaching.
Ftilt, Dtilt,Fairs are effective methods of pressuring and zoning Snake.
For example if Snake grenade camps, Mk can use his Dtilt to effectively attack Snake without risking of destroying the grenades. if the grenades do explode, MK's Dtilt has enough range to safely keep him away from the explosion. At which point Snake really has no true method of dealing with Snake effectively. Snake's Ftilt is outranged by MK's Dtilt (first hit) and while the second Ftilt can hit, MK's Dtilt and Ftilt are much too quick and would mean he wouldn't be capable of landing a hit on Mk.
by no means is Snake at a disadvantage. At worst its probably 55:45 for MK.
The main issue being that Snake has no true answer for MK's faster, more greatly ranged moves and capability of zoning and gimping.
Ftilt, Dtilt,Fairs are effective methods of pressuring and zoning Snake.
For example if Snake grenade camps, Mk can use his Dtilt to effectively attack Snake without risking of destroying the grenades. if the grenades do explode, MK's Dtilt has enough range to safely keep him away from the explosion. At which point Snake really has no true method of dealing with Snake effectively. Snake's Ftilt is outranged by MK's Dtilt (first hit) and while the second Ftilt can hit, MK's Dtilt and Ftilt are much too quick and would mean he wouldn't be capable of landing a hit on Mk.
by no means is Snake at a disadvantage. At worst its probably 55:45 for MK.
The main issue being that Snake has no true answer for MK's faster, more greatly ranged moves and capability of zoning and gimping.
ShadowLink84
Smash Hero
Wrong.
MK's Dtilt is 15 frames.
by the time Snake can Ftilt or utilt, Mk can shield or perform another Dtilt.
Frame data supports this sooo yeah. good luck.
brinboy789
Smash Champion
wait wheres the frame data for all of MK's attacks? link please i cant find it
ShadowLink84
Smash Hero
Try searching for it.
Should be in the character frame data topic.
MK's Dtilt has IASA frames on frame 15
Should be in the character frame data topic.
MK's Dtilt has IASA frames on frame 15
Dark.Pch
Smash Legend
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That can't be right. that is too long compared to snakes Ftilt. If I an not mistaken isn't snakes Ftilt like 3-4 frames?
ShadowLink84
Smash Hero
Don't know its where I read somewhere.
Apparently Snake's 1st ftilt hit is outranged by the Dtilt.
So he has to rely on the second hit which is slower.
Apparently Snake's 1st ftilt hit is outranged by the Dtilt.
So he has to rely on the second hit which is slower.
Metaknight is the best because he is easy to pick up, and the majority of the smashers use him. This, in turn, causes MK's metagame to increase tenfold while the rest of the characters are left with untapped discoveries and potential. The problem is that MK's metagame is moving too rapidly while everyone else's is staggering way behind.
If everyone started using Snake more often, more strategies/discoveries will be learned. No one thought Diddy stood a chance against MK a few months ago; now people think it's an even match up. It's only until someone takes the time to develop their character's metagame to the next level when things change.
A lot of good people like DSF, Overswarm, etc. have dropped their main characters while they were still in the process of developing and switched to MK, although in DSF's defense, he's a major reason for Snake's evolved metagame to this point.
I've lost to Ninjalink's Diddy, Boss's Mario/Luigi, Chu's Kirby, Azen's Marth/Lucario, Chillin's Falco, Knackers Rob, Atomsk and M2K's DDD in a match or a set, and have had close matches with Snakee's ZZS, a crazy amount of Olimar players, random Warios, and EC's best G&W's.
The difference between these guys and the majority of Smashers out there is that they're innovators. The create and discover and advance their character's metagame without the support of hundreds of other people doing the same thing. The majority of Smashers are sitting on their thumb waiting for these guys to find a counter for MK.
Ask me any question about MK, or Brawl in general. I'll more than likely have the right answer.
If everyone started using Snake more often, more strategies/discoveries will be learned. No one thought Diddy stood a chance against MK a few months ago; now people think it's an even match up. It's only until someone takes the time to develop their character's metagame to the next level when things change.
A lot of good people like DSF, Overswarm, etc. have dropped their main characters while they were still in the process of developing and switched to MK, although in DSF's defense, he's a major reason for Snake's evolved metagame to this point.
I've lost to Ninjalink's Diddy, Boss's Mario/Luigi, Chu's Kirby, Azen's Marth/Lucario, Chillin's Falco, Knackers Rob, Atomsk and M2K's DDD in a match or a set, and have had close matches with Snakee's ZZS, a crazy amount of Olimar players, random Warios, and EC's best G&W's.
The difference between these guys and the majority of Smashers out there is that they're innovators. The create and discover and advance their character's metagame without the support of hundreds of other people doing the same thing. The majority of Smashers are sitting on their thumb waiting for these guys to find a counter for MK.
Ask me any question about MK, or Brawl in general. I'll more than likely have the right answer.
Iwan
Smash Ace
Stop taking "pro players" arguments with so much weight when they've yet to logically back up their opinions (not a single one has yet: fact).
You're thinking when the hitbox comes out.
iirc (These numbers aren't perfect, I'd have to dig) MK's dtilt comes out on frame 3 and has IASA frames at 15 (So he can restart it then).
Snake's ftilt comes out on frame 4, but the second hit comes out on frame 18. The first hit is also outranged by MK's.
So MK can get his off faster and will be able to poke Snake before Snake can get the second hit off.
Now, I've heard the hitstun is so low that Snake can then just counterattack him. I have no idea how accurate this is if someone has gotten really good at timing the dtilt spam -- I don't think anyone has put it to a serious competitive test.
ShadowLink84
Smash Hero
@omni why don't you love me?
@salabo: Nope. you can't counter MK with an Ftilt after getting hit by MK's Dtilt. The range is just too much to allow Snake to quickly go in and counter.
@salabo: Nope. you can't counter MK with an Ftilt after getting hit by MK's Dtilt. The range is just too much to allow Snake to quickly go in and counter.
The frame data seems about right, but if we consider the distance MK has to be to safely detonate the grenade then as I said, he's either:
- Eating that f-tilt/u-tilt
- Not approaching in that way due to Snake's stage control
This is wrong. A fully spaced dtilt is the only move that doesn't get hit by a dropped nade. The dtilt is much easier to deal with than you think. Just Shield it and drop the shield. No mater what move MK uses, it will always be powershielded if he attacks right afterwards (which he obviously has to do to pressure Snake). And a ftilt out of a powershield is a guaranteed hit.
Not if MK dtilts again.
Hit on 3, Snake drops shield and begins his ftilt. First hit comes out on frame 8 (3 + 4 + 1, I'm giving Snake a 1 frame shield drop from powershielding) but can't reach MK if he's properly spaced (Which he has to be if the grenade didn't hit him), MK begins again at 15 when the IASA frames begin (Remember, he started at 3 compared to Snake) and hits again at 18 -- Snake's second ftilt hit won't come out until 19.
Like I said, I don't think anyone has really worked on spamming MK's dtilt at its optimal rate. It's pretty insane, unless people have been misdescribing the IASA frames it has.
brinboy789
Smash Champion
???????????????
MK gets a head start on refreshing his dtilt because Snake is delayed while he shields.
Turbo Ether
Smash Master
- Joined
- Apr 12, 2006
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I'd rather talk to pro players than random, theorycrafters on forums who can't win tournaments.
???
Yeah, I can tell you that d-tilt spamming is never a good idea against a good Snake. Frame data or not; you'll get punished each time. Jab-ftilt combo for Snake interupts a lot of everything.
I wasn't aware that Snake's jab reached that far.
ShadowLink84
Smash Hero
Dude thats a bad argument.
Snake is NOT capable of powershield the Dtilt then automatically landing the Ftilt. only the second part of the Ftilt will hit, which maens he has to do the second in which case, he will get hit first because MK's Dtilt is faster or MK can powershield and then retaliate.
Nor can you exactl powershield repeatedly when Mk is applying pressure.
he can use his Dtilt~Fair and you'll get hit by the Fair. Or he can Dtilt and then just shield.
why would he need to spam it? one dtilt is all that is necessary to initiate the frame trap.
ShadowLink84
Smash Hero
Snake's jab can't stop MK's Dtilt. It hits too high and has less range than MK's Dtilt.
MK's Dtilt extends slightly past the graphics.
you shouldn't be hit by Snake's jab when you Dtilt.
oh wait you meant spamming specifically. yeah in whichc ase you basically ask to be punished for stupidity.
Turbo Ether
Smash Master
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This is where proper grenade camping comes into play. Set your grenades up properly to disrupt MK's spacing. Camping well with Snake is not just randomly mashing the B button. People really don't know how to properly use grenades with Snake.
ShadowLink84
Smash Hero
Again MK's Dtilt outranges the grenades explosion so he has no need to worry.
The grenade camping only really works if the MK acts overly aggressive and doesn't space as he should.
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