The Official "Should/Will Metaknight be banned?" Thread (LISTEN TO THE SBR PODCAST!)

[salaboB]

I love the implication that your theorycrafting is somehow superior to M2k's (And other pros') tourney experience.

It's more that tournament experience alone does not mean their statements of how things are instantly become truth.

Things really get called into question when the overall tournament results disagree with their statements.

 

[adumbrodeus]

I love the implication that your theorycrafting is somehow superior to M2k's (And other pros') tourney experience.

M2K's yes.

Anyone else, it depends on how well they analyze and defend it.


Being good at playing a game doesn't mean you have any special abilities in analysis, a genius with no hand-eye coordination, give him/her/it complete frame data, hitbox and hurtbox sizes, access to high-leveled match vids, and any other relevant information and his/her/it's analysis will almost definitely turn out better then your average pro.


Why? Because it all comes down to ability at applying information, logic skills. Somebody who is better at that is gonna analyze better then somebody who isn't. THAT'S the requirement to analyze correctly. NOT having placed in x number of tournaments.



BUT... understand it's not who is a better theorycrafter that matters. What matters is ultimately the truth gets out to the community. That way the community can make informed decisions.

Who figures out the correct match-ups for a character isn't really relevant, the important matter is WHAT THOSE MATCH-UPS ARE. Debating theory is only a means to that end, and while some people might be better at it then others, all that matters is the result.

 

[Cirno]

We have strayed a bit far from the topic, instead talking about the Snake v MK matchup.

Though, I have a hunch, where do you stand on the MK-Ban debate, Adumbrodeus?

 

[adumbrodeus]

We have strayed a bit far from the topic, instead talking about the Snake v MK matchup.

Though, I have a hunch, where do you stand on the MK-Ban debate, Adumbrodeus?

Far far too soon.

Assuming he stays about the same, a year five months from now, depending on how quickly discoveries are occurring.

That is the baseline.


Notice that I haven't voted in the poll thread for exactly that reason.


He IS bannable, but just barely, therefor we cannot ban him until we are reasonably sure that he will remain that way, therefore we need the metagame mature enough to make that distinction. Which it is NOT, at all.


edit:

You were gonna say pro-ban, weren't you?

I get stereotyped as being one of the two major sides depending on the moment. Early in thread, everyone was going for the "ban right now" position, so I was mostly agreeing with Yuna, and everyone thought I was adamantly anti-ban.

Then came a new set, with overswarm and lee around, the pro-ban arguments were better, an I found myself fighting ani-ban. Then they disappeared, yuna returned, pro-ban degreed again, and I found lumped in with anti-ban again. Rinse and repeat a couple of times, though when the sides are about even I find myself calling both sides on poor arguments.

 

[Cirno]

The same in what areas if I may ask?


The most popular reason I see for banning MK is that he steals players from other characters due to him only having neutral matchups (which I disagree with)and thus his metagame is evolving while other character are left behind-- which in any case is more our communities fault than the character.

 

[Tien2500]

The same in what areas if I may ask?


The most popular reason I see for banning MK is that he steals players from other characters due to him only having neutral matchups (which I disagree with)and thus his metagame is evolving while other character are left behind-- which in any case is more our communities fault than the character.

Well he doesn't have any neutral matchups (a few are up for debate). But him having no disadvantages is a very large incentive to play him. Someone who is only "playing to win" should logically main MK. Thats the argument at least.

 

[aeghrur]

Question about the metagame. Do you guys believe it will mature a lot in the following months/years to come or do you believe Brawl is too shallow for that. =/ I mean, there are still new ATs being found, but there's nothing revolutionizing such as L-Cancel or Wavedashing. =/

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

not to mention the game was designed to stop it from having discoveries like this.

 

[adumbrodeus]

The same in what areas if I may ask?


The most popular reason I see for banning MK is that he steals players from other characters due to him only having neutral matchups (which I disagree with)and thus his metagame is evolving while other character are left behind-- which in any case is more our communities fault than the character.

Overall match-ups really, he seems to be making too many characters unviable.

Let me clarify the "seems", the community sentiment is that this is the case, and every popular "mk counter" I've analyzed seems to come up lacking for one reason or another (generally because MK losing requires MK to space poorly, so it's a playstyle issue, not a character issue), so I'm tending in the direction that this is correct.

However, since much of this isn't positively known, and I haven't personally confirmed a number of characters, I can't be sure that MK will be bannable once we've figured out what his match-ups truly are.


But, assuming the sentiment is correct, basically, when a single character is removing a large portion of the cast from viability by himself/herself/itself/potatoself means that it's reasonable to ban that character in the interest of limiting metagame centralization.

Question about the metagame. Do you guys believe it will mature a lot in the following months/years to come or do you believe Brawl is too shallow for that. =/ I mean, there are still new ATs being found, but there's nothing revolutionizing such as L-Cancel or Wavedashing. =/

I truthfully cannot say for sure. Maybe, maybe not.

 

[Cirno]

Well he doesn't have any neutral matchups (a few are up for debate). But him having no disadvantages is a very large incentive to play him. Someone who is only "playing to win" should logically main MK. Thats the argument at least.

MK has a good amount of disadvantages for being what I believe to be the best character in the game. These are often worked around due to MK players being good or playing against players who are not used to taking advantage of weird things like low aerial movement.

The similarity between MK and Yun(SF3rd S) is brought up quite often in defense that he was not banned for having no disadvantaged matchups.

In which there is a retort saying you can't compare the two games with their different methods of reaching the goal, damage, ect.


I'm still curious as to why this is, as we are merely talking matchups.
" Playing to Win" is always thrown around, I'm guilty of it myself, but I also believe that each player has their own best character, which is why despite Fox being top-tier there were more matches than just him and his counters/neutrals( I'm not even going to get into how many Fox dittos there were because it's irrelevant) and why there is more than just MK v MK/Diddy(?)/Snake/Yoshi.

It seems to me that MK is being picked on because of his popularity.

Overall match-ups really, he seems to be making too many characters unviable.

Isn't that the player doing that though?

I feel that if I can use MK to make one character completely unusable against me, I can easily do it with DeDeDe, Marth, Kirby, or Snake because it has to be the way I play since unlike (another commonly used example) Akuma (SF2) the cpu MK is not amazing and does not overwhelm nearly every character.

I'm quite certain that if MK is banned the majority of MK's will switch to DDD, and a smaller percent Snake and continue the same pattern.

Let me clarify the "seems", the community sentiment is that this is the case, and every popular "mk counter" I've analyzed seems to come up lacking for one reason or another (generally because MK losing requires MK to space poorly, so it's a playstyle issue, not a character issue), so I'm tending in the direction that this is correct.

Why is the argument that "If the player lost, it's the player's fault due to [insert reason here]." only viable for MK?

I've never heard/read, "Falco lost to MK due to bad spacing." "That Falco's playstyle needs to be adjusted for [so and so's] MK."

Why if I win with DK is it always, "That MK was trash." "He didn't space properly..." OMG TORNADO MOAR!!" ?


It's like when MK wins, our community just accepts it as the natural order of things never to be questioned. If you do you are a fanboy of the loser. And if MK loses it's a fluke, sandbag, ect.

Is it really that impossible to outplay a style and character you know well with another?

However, since much of this isn't positively known, and I haven't personally confirmed a number of characters, I can't be sure that MK will be bannable once we've figured out what his match-ups truly are.

Thanks for all your efforts and intelligent input so far.
(That goes for everyone pro and anti-ban)

No one can be really sure, that's what the debate is for.
Though I'll be disappointed and have low expectations for the Brawl competitive scene if MK is banned, if we come to a conclusion as a community that he must, I'll do my best to support it.

But, assuming the sentiment is correct, basically, when a single character is removing a large portion of the cast from viability by himself/herself/itself/potatoself means that it's reasonable to ban that character in the interest of limiting metagame centralization.

I honestly can't see a ban doing anything but changing the metagame centralization.( From MK to DDD)

It's the players who are choosing to limit it through choosing MK not the character.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Isn't that the player doing that though?

I feel that if I can use MK to make one character completely unusable against me, I can easily do it with DeDeDe, Marth, Kirby, or Snake because it has to be the way I play since unlike (another commonly used example) Akuma (SF2) the cpu MK is not amazing and does not overwhelm nearly every character.

I'm quite certain that if MK is banned the majority of MK's will switch to DDD, and a smaller percent Snake and continue the same pattern.

Not at all. With MK in play, a number of characters seem completely unable to place as opposed to without him being in play because of his massive match-up advantage.


Match-ups have NOTHING to do with individual players.


Overall unviability deals with the highest levels of the metagame, but interestingly enough MK's ease of use also means that significantly lower-leveled MKs can eliminate many characters without knowledge of things like spacing, this has a great effect on the finals.


Regardless, no. Neither DDD nor Snake has the match-ups to do this. Both can render a few characters almost unviable, but due to possibility of counter-picking, and shared hard counters, neither crosses the threshold.

Why is the argument that "If the player lost, it's the player's fault due to [insert reason here]." only viable for MK?

I've never heard/read, "Falco lost to MK due to bad spacing." "That Falco's playstyle needs to be adjusted for [so and so's] MK."

Why if I win with DK is it always, "That MK was trash." "He didn't space properly..." OMG TORNADO MOAR!!" ?

Because, more often then not, it's true.

In your example Falco's optimal spacing versus MK is beyond MK's melee range, a position which he cannot hold, lasers do not stop approach forever. In melee range, the closest thing he has to good spacing is ultra-short range, which MK STILL functions better at. He also doesn't have the tools to force it.

Granted, that doesn't mean that players don't make mistakes when fighting MK. But as a general rule, the MK players either make more or larger mistakes, or both.

Because of this, MK mistakes tend to be pretty obvious.

It's like when MK wins, our community just accepts it as the natural order of things never to be questioned. If you do you are a fanboy of the loser. And if MK loses it's a fluke, sandbag, ect.

Is it really that impossible to outplay a style and character you know well with another?

Not impossible, but functionally, if MK loses he's making more mistakes then you. That's how being a top tier with the worst match-up being a mirror match works.

I honestly can't see a ban doing anything but changing the metagame centralization.( From MK to DDD)

It's the players who are choosing to limit it through choosing MK not the character.

It's not gonna be DDD that will be the best character, it'll be Marth, as best as is known currently of course. I can explain in detail if you'd like.


Regardless, it's not a question of which character wins most, that will always be there. It's a matter of how the wins are distributed among the cast. In other words, how many characters cannot win if x character is present, that could potentially win if the character is not.


And no, that's not what I'm talking about. I am referring to the characters being almost always eliminated by a bout with an MK player. Not a person picking MK instead of a character.





BTW, I know melee Marth was brought up several times, what was the worst match-up that a character had against him that was not replicated (equally or close to) by another character in high or top?

 

[NinjaLink]

and oh yea if ppl didnt kno, MKs sword itself is invincible which is why it never clashes with attacks. Not sure if anyone noticed. Only attack that MK clashes with is his glide attack...and rarely if someone does a strong hit to the bottom of the tornado (marths dtilt).

Sounds gay right but theres a weakness to it. NONE of his attacks stops projectiles. Like how everyone can stop samus' missiles. He cant. He just has to block all the time. He cant stop snakes upsmash either with any attack than prolly his glide attack.


Just some info to pass out there.

And also, Stop sayin every win i had against MK was due to lack of matchup experience if i beat the same MKs over and over other than the ones at Esticle. I always beat NY mks. I only lost twice to mk since like july. I kno the strengths/weaknesses, what to bait etc. I KNO MK. I may or may not have the best record against him. Everyone makes it seem that way.

Yes due to MK alot of tourney rankings are kinda rigged because underskilled players are advancing when they arent supposed to because of the char. But at the same time most of the MK players are azz To Be honest.

If ANYTHING we should have tourneys with a temp ban for MK( couple months maybe) so the other chars can evolve their meta game. Ppl just say 'Well Fu*k it. I dont feel like learning (insert char here)! I'm just gonna use Meta Knight.' When it gets like that its kinda bad for the community as a whole. I know ALOT of ppl out there who are good and they lose to VERY scrubby players because they use MK. It shouldnt be like that. Results are very messed up due to this. Think about it. If all the MK mains use ANY other char, Most of them wont even place well. Its just due to ppl still not understanding how to fight the char.

Example. When brawl first came out, Who was the char that gave EVERYONE problems. It seemed to be Dedede. Once ppl saw that Ikki demo of the CG EVERYONE wanted to use him. Ppl didnt kno how to deal with it but now it isnt so bad. The next 'I cant beat this character' phase was Snake. 'JESUS CHRIST HIS FTILT! I CANT PASS IT! OMG! I WANNA QUIT BRAWL!' Yes i heard some ppl say that. But now ppl can deal with it due to knowing the weaknesses, what chars to pick etc. Now its MKs turn for that new phase.

This is what u have to do. Ppl think MK doesnt lag............he actually does. U just dont see it. Find openings when they whiff and hit ur shield. Know ur reach, priority(actually doesnt count being MKs attacks doesny clash) , lag of ur own moves and learn the frame data of ur char so u kno what moves are safe. Use EVERYTHING ur char has to the full extent.

Just tryin to help out. I would make a video of what/when/how to abuse meta but meh.

Anyway. I just suggest a temp ban not a permanent one to see if MK is still a prob to everyone after ppl have learned their char to the full extent.

 

[The_Altrox]

Banning MetaKnight from standard tourney play could branch into a new form of tourney


No, I'm not talking about the tournaments without Meta Knight and their diversity in winners.

But there could easily be a sub-tourney for just Meta Knights. Or a similar tourney that allows Meta Knight and others seperated from the main singles bouts in a tournament.
In short, there would be two singles tornaments. One with MK, one without.

Why do this? Some people love MK and would like to use him in tourneys. This would allow them to use him. And the other good side is that if people use other characters in the MK tourney, it might eventually lead to a discovery of a character who has counters to MK in a way we haven't found yet. The only issue is, people might not want to have two brawl singles tourneys...

Yeah, but that's mosstly wishful thinking...

 

[Tenki]

2222 gud

and oh yea if ppl didnt kno, MKs sword itself is invincible which is why it never clashes with attacks. Not sure if anyone noticed. Only attack that MK clashes with is his glide attack...and rarely if someone does a strong hit to the bottom of the tornado (marths dtilt).

Sounds gay right but theres a weakness to it. NONE of his attacks stops projectiles. Like how everyone can stop samus' missiles. He cant. He just has to block all the time. He cant stop snakes upsmash either with any attack than prolly his glide attack.


Just some info to pass out there.

And also, Stop sayin every win i had against MK was due to lack of matchup experience if i beat the same MKs over and over other than the ones at Esticle. I always beat NY mks. I only lost twice to mk since like july. I kno the strengths/weaknesses, what to bait etc. I KNO MK. I may or may not have the best record against him. Everyone makes it seem that way.

Yes due to MK alot of tourney rankings are kinda rigged because underskilled players are advancing when they arent supposed to because of the char. But at the same time most of the MK players are azz To Be honest.

If ANYTHING we should have tourneys with a temp ban for MK( couple months maybe) so the other chars can evolve their meta game. Ppl just say 'Well Fu*k it. I dont feel like learning (insert char here)! I'm just gonna use Meta Knight.' When it gets like that its kinda bad for the community as a whole. I know ALOT of ppl out there who are good and they lose to VERY scrubby players because they use MK. It shouldnt be like that. Results are very messed up due to this. Think about it. If all the MK mains use ANY other char, Most of them wont even place well. Its just due to ppl still not understanding how to fight the char.

Example. When brawl first came out, Who was the char that gave EVERYONE problems. It seemed to be Dedede. Once ppl saw that Ikki demo of the CG EVERYONE wanted to use him. Ppl didnt kno how to deal with it but now it isnt so bad. The next 'I cant beat this character' phase was Snake. 'JESUS CHRIST HIS FTILT! I CANT PASS IT! OMG! I WANNA QUIT BRAWL!' Yes i heard some ppl say that. But now ppl can deal with it due to knowing the weaknesses, what chars to pick etc. Now its MKs turn for that new phase.

This is what u have to do. Ppl think MK doesnt lag............he actually does. U just dont see it. Find openings when they whiff and hit ur shield. Know ur reach, priority(actually doesnt count being MKs attacks doesny clash) , lag of ur own moves and learn the frame data of ur char so u kno what moves are safe. Use EVERYTHING ur char has to the full extent.

Just tryin to help out. I would make a video of what/when/how to abuse meta but meh.

Anyway. I just suggest a temp ban not a permanent one to see if MK is still a prob to everyone after ppl have learned their char to the full extent.

people should read all of that. I'm not sure how good/bad a temp ban would be, but the rest of it is pretty cool.

soooo true. lol.



ohemgeee the community is ruining the metagame. we should ban it from barlw.

totally called it a while ago lol.

 

[Rapid_Assassin]

But at the same time most of the MK players are azz To Be honest.

Anyway. I just suggest a temp ban not a permanent one to see if MK is still a prob to everyone after ppl have learned their char to the full extent.

Just reread those 2 sentences you just wrote, and you'll see the problem with that idea. Most players of any other character suck just as much as those crappy MK's you see. The other problem, how is someone to learn how to fight MK with their character if there's none around to fight? Part of learning your characters to their full extent is learning how to deal with every other character in the game as them.

Other than that, nice post.

 

[fkacyan]

Being good at playing a game doesn't mean you have any special abilities in analysis, a genius with no hand-eye coordination, give him/her/it complete frame data, hitbox and hurtbox sizes, access to high-leveled match vids, and any other relevant information and his/her/it's analysis will almost definitely turn out better then your average pro.

And yet, in a game with little to no tech skill, if he's done such a poor job of analyzing his experiences, why is he still winning?

I think you weigh a little too much into how an argument is presented. Just because it's not an expert analysis doesn't make it wrong. In fact, many expert analyses are wrong.

What you think is going to happen often doesn't. What M2K has said is more dependable than the theories you've put out in the thread, in my experience.

 

[Turbo Ether]

So you only listen to tournament winners.
That's neat.

OH, and btw, I've never heard of you.

I don't care who you've heard of. I can choose to listen to whoever the hell I want to.

And yet, in a game with little to no tech skill, if he's done such a poor job of analyzing his experiences, why is he still winning?

I think you weigh a little too much into how an argument is presented. Just because it's not an expert analysis doesn't make it wrong. In fact, many expert analyses are wrong.

What you think is going to happen often doesn't. What M2K has said is more dependable than the theories you've put out in the thread, in my experience.

This is correct. Forum theory is just flat-out inferior to real time strategies and experience. Random people can argue matchup details back and forth all they want, but it doesn't come close to actually learning from and talking to high level players. I don't care how detailed a random posters analysis is, if it doesn't result in high-level wins for the parties involved, take it with a grain of salt.

So you'd rather take their word at face value, with no reasoning whatsoever, then go through actual logical argumentation based on the mechanics of the the game to figure stuff out.

Meet "appeal to authority fallacy", I think you two are destined to be wonderful friends.

The long and short of it is, the criteria for being a legendary player is knowing HOW to win, not WHY it works. The "why" helps, but if you get it subconsciously, then it really doesn't help in things like... match-up discussions, where application of the knowledge is important.

You're assuming there's no reasoning. Either you choose to disregard it, disagree with it, or are unaware of it. How can you dictate "why" "it" works, if you don't know "how" to win in the first place? Regardless, I agree with Jesiah, I prefer first-hand experience, discussion with top players and my own opinions, instead match-up discussion on forums. That's just how it is for a lot of people, sorry you disagree.

Nades aren't some magic elixer that do everything. Sure they hurt him in getting that spacing. But not enough that he can't get it reliably. And when that happens, you've got nothing.

I disagree. Not much more to it than that. You have your perception, other people have theirs.

 

[cj.Shark]

i hate metaknight. seriously hes a Nightmare matchup for pits.
Ill break down pits game really simple (note this is not all there is for pit duh..)
1. Projectile(spam?) - arrows are great. they pressure they gimp they can do anything (lol)
too bad metaknight is one of the fastest characters in distance covered. not only that but MK is friggen short. although pit can aim his arrows down. aiming ur arrows down SLOWS your speed in which you can fire. also you can only aim it at certain places on the ground leaving much much crappier accuracy as a whole.
not only that but MK can safely nado spam pit the entire game. Pit has only 1 move that can hit mk out of nado. the ftilt. but pits f-tilt isnt fast at all. it has the startup lag of lucarios f-smash Minus the huge range.
2. Recovery- pits glaring weakness. everyone wants to gimp pit right? MK is no different because unlike a whole lot of the cast MK can do it SAFELY without worrying out pit grabbing the edge and then gimping MK because Mks recovery is the BEST in the game. Mks can send attacks in the air so fast its almost imposssible to get past. combine that with a Super fast UPB and you have like no hope of recoverying without ur glide and jumps.
3. airgame. Pits air game is good. Mks is better.
4. Fast smash out of spotdodge. Pit has really fast (but short range) smash attacks with lots of priority. oh well too bad metaknights downsmash is better in just about every way.

Point is. MK is the worst matchup for pit as a whole. It is just about nigh impossible if the MK has even tiny ounce of skill even if you are clearly better.

Pits bad matchups in tiers
Godtier-Metaknight
A-none
b-Gnw
c-Marth
d-none
e-Olimar,kirby,dedede

i honestly think MK is holding Pit back alot. seeing as though pit has really good matchups a s whole for the tourney viable scene except for metaknight which absolutely ***** him.

 

[ShadowLink84]

That's not what I'm saying.

Snake can airdodge off of the cipher, easily shutting down the Sh. Loop, and if he's at a high enough percent that waiting to kill him is viable and gets you a signifigant lead, the Snake isn't any indicator of the matchup at all.

Why shuttleloop? Against a character like Snake its much better to just use a Dair since the move comes out quick enough that MK can just Dair again and smack Snake.

Every character tries to place their self where Snake lands. It just doesn't work well, due to if you're not chasing him upwards to beat his landing, all he has to do is drop c4. Multi jump characters however usually chase him up, airdodge the c4, and try to predict and counter his next move. D3 ***** this with his hammer, Kirby and Jigs usually get baired, and MK usually misses a nair or tornados and eats a nade.

Not really since the drop of C4 is predictable in its trajectory (it falls straight down.
Snake is not going to detonate the C4 when he is directly above it in range of the blast.
So MK can as I said, hover around the are and react accordingly.
I don't believe MK will use his tornado or Nair. Since Snake is heavier its better off using the Uair which is very fast and will juggle Snake until MK feels he is in a position where he can go for a side KO.

I don't believe MK should try to go after Snake with his Nair primarily because its not as fast nor has as much range as his other aerials.

I don't like the tornado either mainyl since its vulnerable from above.

Wario's eaier to deal with. Watch his movement and then tornado. You don't need to be cautious of a c4 , nade, or nikita.

Not erally since Wario, unlike the nikita, Nade and C4 is capable of isntantly altering his movement in midair. If you tornado after him he can get back to the ground and tilt his shield up as you tornado.

If you are under Snake the area in general is not safe unless you are far away enough that you won't get hit, in case his landing is secured. Snake's no Wario but neither is MK, with snake being a little faster(not considering his jump).

I think the range for MK helps him out. While Snake is a bit faster than MK aerially, MK's range more than makes up for it (since the difference in speed is minimal between the two I think).
MK could remain on the ground then jump and over a bit so that he won't ahve tow orry as greatly about nikita,grenades or c4.

MK's best option is trying to catch a c4 drop with a shuttle loop before he can detonate.
All comes down to who predicts better there but, Snake is in the best position out of every character descending to the stage.

I ahve to disagree I think Link and Tl and G&W do it ebtter IMo.
Snake doesn't really do well descending ebcause while he has his c4 and grenades. he also falls relatively quick so he can really pull out everything all at once unless he is really high, at which point MK can pursue with multijumps and use his Uair and Dair to bait out the airdodges and punish.
if the C4 appears, depending on how high Snake is I can retreat and then shuttle loop.
But thats too much theorycrafting so I'll agree with you.

This section was pretty weird. You said I assumed MK would keep using d-tilt and then went on to explain how d-tilt would somehow defeat the grenade counter.

What I mean is MK uses a Dtilt. This gives MK the frame advantage and from there he can use an SH Fair~Dtilt or he can shield. So he doesn't really give Snake a moment for a grenade counter that would work really well annd make him safe.

If MK's is resetting the spacing he's still not in a position to start the assault.
But let's assume somehow the d-tilt does detonate a grenade and Snake does nothing.

MK uses any attack or grab on him and he is now in a position to be pushed off the edge and gimped. What can Snake do to stop it? Air dodge and draw a grenade(Half of the time DI isn't even needed). Test it out-- please. Before MK can use anything again, that grenade is drawn, if he attacks after that they are both caught in the explosion and the process will repeat until Snake is allowed back onto the ground or MK dies over the top. Back to reset.

I am not toos ure but I think MK can attack Snake with the Dair without cuaisng the grenade to explode. I am not too sure I am not at my house right now so I cannot test it but I'll take your word for it. However if Snake pulls out the grenade couldn't MK simply move back and simply wait for Snake? I don't beleive that MK will immediately go for the gimp since he wouldn't ahve the chance to react to Snake pulling grenades in time.

Instead of trading hits I should have said both take a hit. Mainly talking about his grenades. Snake can take a lot more safely than MK. Not to mention I've seen plenty explosions on both characters lead to uair death.

D-tilt of course doesn't work in the air, killing all safe approaches, and turning it into another game of prediction. On the ground if he's holding it, he drops it and is pushed away. MK's only option is to wait now. Every attack will detonate the grenade, and a dash grab (best used here) can be f-tilted(occasionally also detonating the grenade).

It is true that once Snake is in the air with a grenade its not as safe for MK to attack. hence I recommend something more defensive. Would a retreating Bair work? I am not too sure about the range but I have once caused a grenade toe xplode without being caught in the blast.

I'd have to test the pivot grab to see if he can escape it, but a normal one is somehow still in the huge explosion range after a forced drop.
=/

mmk

A good Snake has 3 main safe periods to setup absolute stage control: At the start, after losing a stock and after heavy knockback(as smart players will use their invincibility frames to detonate the C4 and Land mines). Using grenades is only minor. At any of those points Sonic and MK are pretty limited.

True but I find that with Sonic (ohhh snake vs sonic matchup discussion!?) is capable of crossing FD in such a short amount of time that it makes it difficult to establish stage control.
Also grounded springs are good for screwing up Snake's ground game when he respawns. (its something I use against Olimars).

I am not too sure how MK would be capable of stopping Snake's stage control once its been set up unless he manages to remain near Snake where he can continously pressure him.

Mind you I am not saying they can really break the stage control easily (not many characters can as we agered earlier), but the early prevention is what i think helps push it to MK's advantage.

MK is much better at preventing it( only second to those with projectiles), but unless you are not taking damage, not killing Snake, and not starting far away from Snake( in which case you would be able to win with a handicapped Captain Falcon) you can not prevent his eventual stage control. Only disrupt how much he has, and prevent him from gaining more.

Agreed.
He will eventually gain stage control (I find its usually at the start when I am far away.)
once MK starts prevention though it falls down to what degree he can slow it down.

I have been reading Claymore. :D

Eyeshield 21 I haven't heard of though. :d
I'll give it a look see.

Eyeshield is a sports manga. I was rather skeptical at first but its actually pretty good.

Thanks, the guess we had for frame data was correct anyway but, it's always nice to be sure.

The speed isn't the problem with getting hit by the f-tilt though, it's the spacing.

Check the spacing MK needs to have in order to safely detonate the nade.( If it hits Snake upon explosion it's not properly spaced)
Test with a partner and see if the second d-tilt reaches Snake.

He'll need to move forward.

Snake however, seeing his nade detonated only needs to f-tilt to repel him or force reset.

A Surprise boost-smash has worked well for me as well, but in theory it shouldn't.

once MK has exploded the first grenade he iss till out of range for Snake's first Ftilt hit. So he wouldn't be able to react with his Ftilt after MK has detonated the grenade.

Snake's Ftilt can only hit MK out of the Dtilt from the second hit, which is around 18 frames.
Considering MK has that 15 frame Dtilt its going to be very difficult for Snake to coutner with an Ftilt.
I am curious about the boost smash.
Maybe its because of the forward movement and the little shockwave the Usmash makes when he brings out the mortar?

And yet, in a game with little to no tech skill, if he's done such a poor job of analyzing his experiences, why is he still winning?

lol qut?
Where did anyone say that m2k didn't know the matchup?
What was said was that m2k has yet tor eally back up his argument.
It does not mean he has no argument or that he does not know what he is talking about.
however if Stephen hawkings simply said "blackholes exist on earth" no one would simply take his word for it if he just made the statement and not the argument.

I think you weigh a little too much into how an argument is presented. Just because it's not an expert analysis doesn't make it wrong. In fact, many expert analyses are wrong.

They are usually proven wrong by other expert analyses as well!

What you think is going to happen often doesn't. What M2K has said is more dependable than the theories you've put out in the thread, in my experience.

Much of what has been said is not just simply theory. It is supported theory much like the idea of evolution.
Just because m2k makes a statement doesn't mean ANYTHING. yeah he has the experience but under no circumstance should we simply take what he says at face value.

There are much more cases in which a simple statement is wrong.

I don't care who you've heard of. I can choose to listen to whoever the hell I want to.

Indeed but can you say who you are listening to is right when you ignore everyone else's?
Just saying.

This is correct. Forum theory is just flat-out inferior to real time strategies and experience. Random people can argue matchup details back and forth all they want, but it doesn't come close to actually learning from and talking to high level players. I don't care how detailed a random posters analysis is, if it doesn't result in high-level wins for the parties involved, take it with a grain of salt.

Wrong.
Those theories assume highest level of play and EXCLUDE mindgames.
That is the reason why theories are theories. They cannot take into account those extra variables.
On paper Sonic is a and character.
in play though his mindgames are much better than a majority of the characters and explain why he does better than he is credited for.

Mindgames factor alot in real time experience but by no means would that change an 80:20 match up to 60:40.

Saying that one is inferior to the other is incorrect.

its why people often ignore the idea of mindgames unless the character is geared toward them because they promote circular arguments. It would make every matchup 50:50.

You're assuming there's no reasoning. Either you choose to disregard it, disagree with it, or are unaware of it. How can you dictate "why" "it" works, if you don't know "how" to win in the first place? Regardless, I agree with Jesiah, I prefer first-hand experience, discussion with top players and my own opinions, instead match-up discussion on forums. That's just how it is for a lot of people, sorry you disagree.

Where is the reasoning?
So far atomsk and Inui ahve said.
"I beat so and so ina tournament"
What does that prove>?
Mind you I can do the exact same thing.
"I beat so and so"

Thats not reasoning at all.
Regardless of who a person is, that kind of argument is not reasoning.
So far the arguments that I ahve heard are
"Olimars don't perfect camp"
"Olimars don't play gay enough"
"Olimars don't want to win hard enough".
how is that in anyway an accurate argument.

A bad argument is bad regardless of who makes it. Just because Azen or m2k says so doesn't mean they are correct. There are many times where simple statements were proven wrong.

 

[Ori_bro]

What I'm saying is that any character that isn't pikachu should probably be banned. How come no one's listening to me >=[? I'm just posting in the spirit of competition and really feel like my words should have more weight than you people are putting on them. I'm sitting here throwing out numbers in the metric system and you insist on using pounds(lbs) and teaspoons? I'm just saying hear me out, but don't make me pout!

lol i second this

 

[salaboB]

And also, Stop sayin every win i had against MK was due to lack of matchup experience if i beat the same MKs over and over other than the ones at Esticle. I always beat NY mks. I only lost twice to mk since like july. I kno the strengths/weaknesses, what to bait etc. I KNO MK. I may or may not have the best record against him. Everyone makes it seem that way.

I've only been asking if you could beat M2K again, by no means was I saying every matchup you win is lack of matchup experience.

One of the things people keep saying is "NL beat M2K with Diddy!" But if you only have done it that one set, you've not demonstrated anything except that you won a match he had little experience with at that point.

 

[ShadowLink84]

lol i second this

This is why Anther cannot post anymore >_>

 

[Dark.Pch]

I've only been asking if you could beat M2K again, by no means was I saying every matchup you win is lack of matchup experience.

One of the things people keep saying is "NL beat M2K with Diddy!" But if you only have done it that one set, you've not demonstrated anything except that you won a match he had little experience with at that point.

M2K is not the only godly MK out there. Why it only has to be him. Cause he is the best in the world or something? The other meta's he beat count also for they are also top players. and the "not knowing the match up" applies for them too?

If not why then the reason they lost is cause He knows MK in and out and figured out how to deal with him as diddy.

 

[ShadowLink84]

O_O
Dark. Pch your sig...
ITS AMAZING!

 

[salaboB]

M2K is not the only godly MK out there. Why it only has to be him. Cause he is the best in the world or something? The other meta's he beat count also for they are also top players. and the "not knowing the match up" applies for them too?

If not why then the reason they lost is cause He knows MK in and out and figured out how to deal with him as diddy.

If you really want to, how many times *has* he won against the other top MKs? Particularily noting whether any of his losses to them were in the initial matches or in later matches, or if he's winning multiple sets and has played them a significant number of times that they should be getting familiar with his playstyle.

People just give so much weight to the "He beat M2K" point that they're overlooking all the advantages he had in what I've only heard happened once.

 

[St. Viers]

he said himself in this thread he's around 30-2 against MK, where M2k is one of the losses, and Inui was the other, I believe.

 

[PEEF!]

Bleh. dont ban him. Learn him. MK can be beat if you learn the matchup. Dont take the easy way out, learn to beat him. Some do. Be like them...

 

[1048576]

Learn the matchup = Pick MK

Given the current matchups, no stable equilibrium can ever be achieved with anything except 100% MK.

I'm assuming MK has no bad matchups and no bad stages. Other characters all have some of that. This is obviously up for debate.

 

[flyingpork002]

As a diddy main, I actually like the fact that MK is a character. This may sound wierd, but I think mk's existence in the game gives diddy kong a certain level of importance among the community. Like some sort of a superhero: "OH Noos!! this guy is ****** us with metaknight: NOt to fear! Diddy Kong is here" is kind of the thing I like about being a diddy main and being considered the best counter. Also, metaknight mains watch out because back on the diddy boards people are getting really close to solving the problems of smashville and battlefield against mk. And once that happens, meta will have no place to hide considering he can't ban all three.

 

[rehab]

Group 1 says mk has no disadvantages. Group 2 says Snake has the advantage. 1 says perfectly spaced dtilt frame trap>Snake. 2 says that doesn't work, brings up grenades and how top level mk's tend to lose to Snake, implying it is because Snake has the advantage. 1 says lower levels aren't reflecting this. 2 says they don't matter. 1 says they do. 2 says what.

Is this interpretation of the snake argument cycle correct?

 

[M15t3R E]

Flyingpork002, interesting that you call Diddy a MK counter when he is 40:60 disadvantaged in that match-up. I've noticed many people calling a character a counter to MK when the match-up is not worse than 40:60 in MK's favor. Intriguing.
If you are as good at Diddy's banana game as Ninjalink, then the match-up can be reasonably called neutral.

Rehab, that about covers it. There's evidence that MK can get around plenty of Snake's little nade tricks and whatnot, but also evidence that Snake can handle many of MK's approaches pretty well.
The argument isn't really going anywhere.

 

[ShadowLink84]

No rehab its incorrect More like even matchup.

 

[Dark.Pch]

O_O
Dark. Pch your sig...
ITS AMAZING!

Thanks

If you really want to, how many times *has* he won against the other top MKs? Particularily noting whether any of his losses to them were in the initial matches or in later matches, or if he's winning multiple sets and has played them a significant number of times that they should be getting familiar with his playstyle.

People just give so much weight to the "He beat M2K" point that they're overlooking all the advantages he had in what I've only heard happened once.

Ok, no disrespect to M2K what so ever. But the hell with him in this. He is not the only meta out there that does damage. The dude is 30-2 against Meta. he has beaten nearly all the top metas around this area. You ack like M2K is the only meta that matters. Which is not true. And these meta's he has taken out.

 

[Plairnkk]

F

If you are as good at Diddy's banana game as Ninjalink, then the match-up can be reasonably called neutral.

Isn't the top level what matters in the argument? If you dont have a good banana game, get better at it so the matchup is even. This is exactly the kind of **** i talk about. People would rather ***** and call the matchup 40:60 than get better

 

[XienZo]

Group 1 says mk has no disadvantages. Group 2 says Snake has the advantage. 1 says perfectly spaced dtilt frame trap>Snake. 2 says that doesn't work, brings up grenades and how top level mk's tend to lose to Snake, implying it is because Snake has the advantage. 1 says lower levels aren't reflecting this. 2 says they don't matter. 1 says they do. 2 says what.

Is this interpretation of the snake argument cycle correct?

I think thats where they went wrong. There are two kinds or arguments, theorycrafting to see what the matchups would be at "the highest level of the metagame", and analyzing tourney results, to determine matchups at the "current (highest) level of the metagame". The former gives advantages to characters like Olimar with "perfect camping" and ICs with KOs every grab(which I've observed doesn't happen all the time in high level tourneys), while the latter gives advantages to "ease of use" characters and ones who are currently swarming the metagame.

I believe MK has no disadvantages in the latter category, or "current (highest) level of metagame" in the metagame right now, but he would have a disadvantage or two in "highest level of metagame", or the metagame in a few(varies on how fast we learn ATs and get down techs) years.

Anyway, you can't mix how a character does best now (tourney results) and how a character does best eventually (technical weaknesses and theorycrafting) since a character might have differing matchups depending on the case.

 

[salaboB]

he said himself in this thread he's around 30-2 against MK, where M2k is one of the losses, and Inui was the other, I believe.

Like I said: How many were multiple wins against the top MK's, and how many are beat them the first time then don't play them regularily again?

Even a second match may not be enough if the player isn't extremely good at adapting to a new playstyle. If he continues winning third, fourth, etc. matchup sets (Not just single rounds, full matches) then he'll be demonstrating Diddy going even/advantaged. If he starts to lose once he actually plays the top MKs frequently enough that they can see what he's doing and how they have to change, he's not shown anything.

30-2 by itself is meaningless. How many of that 30 is him beating the same top level MKs and how many is him beating lower ones or top ones for the first time?

Ok, no disrespect to M2K what so ever. But the hell with him in this. He is not the only meta out there that does damage. The dude is 30-2 against Meta. he has beaten nearly all the top metas around this area. You ack like M2K is the only meta that matters. Which is not true. And these meta's he has taken out.

"M2K isn't the only one he's beaten the others matter"
"Okay, tell me how he's done against these other top MKs, has he beaten them repeatedly?"
"M2K isn't the only one he's beaten the others matter"

...

You didn't answer what I asked at all.

Edit: Here, I'll explain. If he beats every single top MK player *once*, it doesn't mean Diddy's a counter to MK. It means all the MKs have never fought a Diddy like him before. If he can do it repeatedly, it starts to look more like Diddy is a counter to MK. With only a tiny number of matches having occurred between any MK and him, Diddy being a counter is indistinguishable from the MK lacking matchup experience. Thus why I want to know how many times he's played against each of them - there's currently no evidence that it is a counter. Yes, that is one possible reason, but you can't say it's been proven yet because there's other strong explanations as well.

 

[M15t3R E]

Isn't the top level what matters in the argument? If you dont have a good banana game, get better at it so the matchup is even. This is exactly the kind of **** i talk about. People would rather ***** and call the matchup 40:60 than get better

So I guess you are telling the people that don't feel like using Diddy in tournaments to STFU?
Harsh.
It still stands that a less skilled MK player can go neutral with a Diddy player about as skilled as Ninjalink.

 

[St. Viers]

if that were true NL would be losing more, Mister_E...

@salaboB: I misunderstood what you said, sorry ^_^

he routinely beats Inui (who is still a good player, despite his arrogance), but besides that I dunno. Gonna have to wait for him to pop in again.

 

[Plairnkk]

So I guess you are telling the people that don't feel like using Diddy in tournaments to STFU?
Harsh.
It still stands that a less skilled MK player can go neutral with a Diddy player about as skilled as Ninjalink.

That's why he can beat m2k?

No.

I'm saying this is one of -MANY- examples of ways people can beat metaknight.

 

[ShadowLink84]

That's why he can beat m2k?

No.

I'm saying this is one of -MANY- examples of ways people can beat metaknight.

I am wondering why everyone believes that the pro ban side argues MK being unbeatable...