The Official "Should/Will Metaknight be banned?" Thread (LISTEN TO THE SBR PODCAST!)

[Turbo Ether]

Again MK's Dtilt outranges the grenades explosion so he has no need to worry.
The grenade camping only really works if the MK acts overly aggressive and doesn't space as he should.

The point of the grenade camping is stop the MK from spacing as he should.

 

[Omni]

Metaknight's d-tilt pushes his body forward. One or two d-tilts will put you into jab range. A powershielding Snake will jab-ftilt you.

 

[Dark.Pch]

Omni we ned to play. I need to play top metas and see how Peach does against them. so far the average types of meta, my peach can beat. And what you said before was right. But don't do things on thier own. They wait for others to figure stuff out. Or play the typical way with thier character. It gets old and will be figured out. gotta play creative and all.

 

[Turbo Ether]

I think people are confusing grenade camping with grenade countering. Grenade countering is just a portion of what grenade camping properly actually is.

 

[ShadowLink84]

The point of the grenade camping is stop the MK from spacing as he should.

Which again does NOT work because when MK spaces properly. The grenaes don't stop his Dtilt.

I dtilt once and initiate the frame trap. You powershield and try to Ftilt, I smack you with a Dtilt.
If you drop two grenades it doesn't bother me canse I can shield and punish you afterwards.

Metaknight's d-tilt pushes his body forward. One or two d-tilts will put you into jab range. A powershielding Snake will jab-ftilt you.

I am quite sure it requires two or three not one.
Either way you risk getting hit because if I am in range of a jab, I can still Dtilt you ad just exchance hits since they won't clank.

Either way I can maintain the spacing and you can grenade camp and drop two grenades but I can still ensure I am safe.


@ether: Can you clarify then? Primarily because everyone is centering aruond grenade countering.

 

[Turbo Ether]

If you drop two grenades it doesn't bother me canse I can shield and punish you afterwards.

Punish what afterwards? After you shield those grenades, there's more waiting for you immediately if I decide to pull more. And if you always respond to grenades like that, you become predictable.

@ether: Can you clarify then? Primarily because everyone is centering aruond grenade countering.

There's several things Snake do with the grenades, like pulling the grenades and dropping them where MK needs to be in order to space his attacks safely, putting him into a more compromising situation.

 

[Omni]

In theory, you're probably right Shadow.

But when you're in a tournament in the heat of the moment, you don't have time to space yourself perfectly. That d-tilt range can change from any factor including your opponent's movement. I'm not saying this from theory and frame data results, I'm saying this from hardcore results from playing Chillin in tourny and having G-regulate in my crew and pretty much a roommate.

Also, if for any reason you clank with Snake 9/10 you're going to be f-tilted. Clanking while using MK ends up in you doing the "Oh **** Neutral-A Storm Panic".

Agreed Dark Pch. I play Hova's Peach all the time since I live with him, but it's always fun playing another style of another character.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Punish what afterwards? After you shield those grenades, there's more waiting for you immediately if I decide to pull more. And if you always respond to grenades like that, you become predictable.

you misunderstand.
If I dtilt I break one of the grenades right? if you decide to pull out more its not an issue since I can just move away and then continueusing my Dtilt to space your grenades. if you try to pick them up and throw them, I can continue the Dtilt. If you try to punish with an Ftilt, I can shield the attack then retaliate.
In such a position Snake has no safe method of retaliating.
By pull out grenades does nothing to push it towards you since my Dtilt outrange sthe explosion and keeps me safe frmo the attack.

There's several things Snake do with the grenades, like pulling the grenades and dropping them where MK needs to be in order to space his attacks safely, putting him into a more compromising situation.

How?
if M is spacing with his Dtilt how are you going to have the time to drop them in place before he can simply move away and reposition himself?
Lets assume I dtilt and im too clsoe. you drop a grenade. I can move away before you can attack me and continue spacing the Dtilt. I won't spam the Dtilt consecutively.

 

[salaboB]

Also, if for any reason you clank with Snake 9/10 you're going to be f-tilted. Clanking while using MK ends up in you doing the "Oh **** Neutral-A Storm Panic".

I assume you mean jab, which comes out on frame 7 according to M2K. You should be dtilt or ftilting as both come out on frame 3.

If you mean nair for some unexpected reason then yeah, that's frame 3 also.

 

[Mew2King]

Metaknight is the best because he is easy to pick up, and the majority of the smashers use him. This, in turn, causes MK's metagame to increase tenfold while the rest of the characters are left with untapped discoveries and potential. The problem is that MK's metagame is moving too rapidly while everyone else's is staggering way behind.

If everyone started using Snake more often, more strategies/discoveries will be learned. No one thought Diddy stood a chance against MK a few months ago; now people think it's an even match up. It's only until someone takes the time to develop their character's metagame to the next level when things change.

A lot of good people like DSF, Overswarm, etc. have dropped their main characters while they were still in the process of developing and switched to MK, although in DSF's defense, he's a major reason for Snake's evolved metagame to this point.

I've lost to Ninjalink's Diddy, Boss's Mario/Luigi, Chu's Kirby, Azen's Marth/Lucario, Chillin's Falco, Knackers Rob, Atomsk and M2K's DDD in a match or a set, and have had close matches with Snakee's ZZS, a crazy amount of Olimar players, random Warios, and EC's best G&W's.

The difference between these guys and the majority of Smashers out there is that they're innovators. The create and discover and advance their character's metagame without the support of hundreds of other people doing the same thing. The majority of Smashers are sitting on their thumb waiting for these guys to find a counter for MK.

Ask me any question about MK, or Brawl in general. I'll more than likely have the right answer.

this is coming from quite possibly one of the top 5 MKs

btw you should read the stuff he says in his other posts too, he actually knows what he's talking about

 

[Turbo Ether]

you misunderstand.
If I dtilt I break one of the grenades right? if you decide to pull out more its not an issue since I can just move away and then continueusing my Dtilt to space your grenades. if you try to pick them up and throw them, I can continue the Dtilt. If you try to punish with an Ftilt, I can shield the attack then retaliate.
In such a position Snake has no safe method of retaliating.
By pull out grenades does nothing to push it towards you since my Dtilt outrange sthe explosion and keeps me safe frmo the attack.



How?
if M is spacing with his Dtilt how are you going to have the time to drop them in place before he can simply move away and reposition himself?
Lets assume I dtilt and im too clsoe. you drop a grenade. I can move away before you can attack me and continue spacing the Dtilt. I won't spam the Dtilt consecutively.

This is why theorycraft can be troublesome, it's a bit confusing. What do you mean by move away and Dtilt? Do you mean SH back and Dtilt? Or walk away, turn around and Dtilt?

 

[ShadowLink84]

I was thinking jumping away since i could cover myself with a Fair and continue moving away if you decide to WTF Utilt me. I would pic up Snake but his utilt irks me.

Could we also discuss if I walk away and Dtilt?

In theory, you're probably right Shadow.

But when you're in a tournament in the heat of the moment, you don't have time to space yourself perfectly. That d-tilt range can change from any factor including your opponent's movement. I'm not saying this from theory and frame data results, I'm saying this from hardcore results from playing Chillin in tourny and having G-regulate in my crew and pretty much a roommate.

Also, if for any reason you clank with Snake 9/10 you're going to be f-tilted. Clanking while using MK ends up in you doing the "Oh **** Neutral-A Storm Panic".

Could it not also be said the other way around?
Also the Dtilt does not clank with the Ftilt. The hitbox is much too low much likw G&W's Dtilt.If you clank with Snake's Ftilt you are better off shielding and then reacting afterwards.

Hmm I wish I could go to tourneys more often. =(
School is cruel.

 

[Turbo Ether]

I was thinking jumping away since i could cover myself with a Fair and continue moving away if you decide to WTF Utilt me. I would pic up Snake but his utilt irks me.

Could we also discuss if I walk away and Dtilt?

If MK SHs back, it resets the spacing. At that point, it would be a good idea for Snake to put a grenade in between himself and the MK, to disrupt the MK from spacing appropriately. You can do this by short throwing a grenade or by pull a grenade, stepping forward, dropping it and walking/jumping/rolling back.

I like to have the nade down, so that if MK tries approach past the nade, he's now in range of my hitboxes. But if tries to space outside of my hitboxes, he's within the explosion hitbox.

If MK Dtilts your shield, while spaced correctly, you can't really retaliate, the best thing to do imo is try to reset the spacing. This is why I like to use nades to disrupt the MKs spacing as much as possible.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Hmm okay at which point it sounds like they would both just continue resetting the spacing (which is rather bothersome)
What about walking Dtilt?

 

[Turbo Ether]

Hmm okay at which point it sounds like they would both just continue resetting the spacing (which is rather bothersome)
What about walking Dtilt?

Walking Dtilt, spaced well on shield? There's no guaranteed retaliation to a properly spaced Dtilt on shield. Like I said before, you wanna use the nades to prevent that perfect spacing in the first place.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Mmk. That only enforces the idea of it being neutral.
Could it be said that the margin of error is smaller for Snake? Considering that MK is so very quick and can maintain his safety.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Mmk. That only enforces the idea of it being neutral.
Could it be said that the margin of error is smaller for Snake? Considering that MK is so very quick and can maintain his safety.

He also lives much longer and has better KO moves too, so MK has a smaller margin of error

 

[Cirno]

Mmk. That only enforces the idea of it being neutral.
Could it be said that the margin of error is smaller for Snake? Considering that MK is so very quick and can maintain his safety.

The amount of mistakes a Snake player can make is far more than MK considering thier huge weight/power difference.

55:45

 

[ShadowLink84]

He also lives much longer and has better KO moves too, so MK has a smaller margin of error

I have to disagree with the living longer part.
Once MK manages to break past Snake's defense, Snake has an issue with MK's incredible offensive ability. Nearly all of MK's attacks are meant to pop the opponent up where MK can take advantage.
At that point maintaining the offensive against Snake is not hard at all for MK.
Considering the amount of damage that MK can inflict on Snake over time, Snake's heavy weight really does not factor in as greatly especially when you consider Snake's vulnerability when recovering.

Which reminds me, would MK's Dash grab be capable of bypassing the grenades?

Snake is capable of killing earlier, Utilt, jabs, Ftilt, all of which kill early considering MK's light weight. However because of MK's safe play Snake's ability to KO is hampered somewhat. Even if Snake does get MK to killing percentages it becomes difficult to land the killing blow.

 

[salaboB]

The amount of mistakes a Snake player can make is far more than MK considering thier huge weight/power difference.

55:45

I could have sworn MK could gimp Snake if he could get him off the edge, mostly neutralizing the difference -- Snake makes a mistake and gets pushed off the edge, gimp attempt. MK makes a mistake and Snake gets a chance at an ftilt, kill attempt.

 

[choknater]

infernoomni's argument is very strong

 

[Cirno]

I could have sworn MK could gimp Snake if he could get him off the edge, mostly neutralizing the difference -- Snake makes a mistake and gets pushed off the edge, gimp attempt. MK makes a mistake and Snake gets a chance at an ftilt, kill attempt.

In high levels of play all Snake's recover far and away with an occasional C4 recovery, and all MK's go under the stage to avoid the U-smash barrier with occasional Nikita.

That f-tilt which is more commonly an u-tilt will kill a lot faster than an attempted gimp.


ShadowLink84, not to be rude but your post was a bit jumbled, could you fix up your post a bit so I can respond?
(Just the stuff like specifying what you mean by 'get at' and make sure you don't have "Snake" where I think you want "MK" to be.)

 

[fkacyan]

I could have sworn MK could gimp Snake if he could get him off the edge, mostly neutralizing the difference -- Snake makes a mistake and gets pushed off the edge, gimp attempt. MK makes a mistake and Snake gets a chance at an ftilt, kill attempt.

Snake times airdodge off of cipher, MK eats a small % for hitting it.

It's not that hard to do either.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Snake times airdodge off of cipher, MK eats a small % for hitting it.

It's not that hard to do either.

Like Mk is going to try and gimp Snake from above with the cypher directly below him. We both know that isn't what MK will do.

 

[ShadowLink84]

In high levels of play all Snake's recover far and away with an occasional C4 recovery, and all MK's go under the stage to avoid the U-smash barrier with occasional Nikita.

That f-tilt which is more commonly an u-tilt will kill a lot faster than an attempted gimp.


ShadowLink84, not to be rude but your post was a bit jumbled, could you fix up your post a bit so I can respond?
(Just the stuff like specifying what you mean by 'get at' and make sure you don't have "Snake" where I think you want "MK" to be.)

oh sorry about that I was watching an anime at the same time. Gimme a second.

Edit: Done. *continues watching anime*

 

[Cirno]

I have to disagree with the living longer part.
Once MK manages to break past Snake's defense, Snake has an issue with MK's incredible offensive ability. Nearly all of MK's attacks are meant to pop the opponent up where MK can take advantage.

Not unless this attack pushes Snake off the edge(higher percents/bad DI), all he has to do is time an air dodge+ fastfall or hold a nade for kamikaze recovery. I'm pretty sure dropping c4 would work too but I've never tried or seen it myself.

And even in the case where he can't use that option due to being offstage, all snake has to do jump away and recover high which puts him in the position to use the previously stated options.

At that point maintaining the offensive against Snake is not hard at all for MK.
Considering the amount of damage that MK can inflict on Snake over time, Snake's heavy weight really does not factor in as greatly especially when you consider Snake's vulnerability when recovering.

At high levels, and using the scenario we developed of grenade countering, it's going to be Mk taking more damage or them trading hits, which is obviously more dangerous for MK.

All snake has to do to reset MK's advantage in assault is pull a grenade. In which they both are hit, MK goes higher due to weight, and snake ends up on ground before him preparing a kill attempt or setting up spacing/defense/stage control.

Which reminds me, would MK's Dash grab be capable of bypassing the grenades?

Not at high levels. Falco even has trouble chain grabbing due to Snakes being able to lower the timing on nades by holding them.

You will see this alot when the Mk player is much better though. Which will lead into fair, then dairing until Snake is one stock down.

Snake is capable of killing earlier, Utilt, jabs, Ftilt, all of which kill early considering MK's light weight. However because of MK's safe play Snake's ability to KO is hampered somewhat. Even if Snake does get MK to killing percentages it becomes difficult to land the killing blow.

Not really, they are pretty even when they get to their killing percents, except that Snake has projectiles giving him a slight advantage. The only characters that can really handle Snake's stage control are the one's with reflects or projectiles. MK has neither.

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What anime are you watching though?

I'm looking for some good stuff while I'm waiting for ToraDora and Zero no Tsukima novels to be updated and translated.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Not unless this attack pushes Snake off the edge(higher percents/bad DI), all he has to do is time an air dodge+ fastfall or hold a nade for kamikaze recovery. I'm pretty sure dropping c4 would work too but I've never tried or seen it myself.[/quote Fast fall airdodging doesn't work too well.
MK will always place himself in position where he can reach Snake with his blade. S if I fast fall an airdodge, MK can still land an attack because of the range of his moves.
I have seen people using grenades and C4 but not very often since its similar to Link's bomb recovery in that its a bit risky.

And even in the case where he can't use that option due to being offstage, all snake has to do jump away and recover high which puts him in the position to use the previously stated options.

not really. Mind you MK has multiple jumps. If I feel you will recover from high I can go back down, reset my multi jump and land camp you until I feel you are in an area where I feel safe.
its not as if I am dealing with Wario who is capable of moving about in the air very well, Snake is rather rigid in his motion so predicting where you will appear wont be difficult.

At high levels, and using the scenario we developed of grenade countering, it's going to be Mk taking more damage or them trading hits, which is obviously more dangerous for MK

All snake has to do to reset MK's advantage in assault is pull a grenade. In which they both are hit, MK goes higher due to weight, and snake ends up on ground before him preparing a kill attempt or setting up spacing/defense/stage control.

Incorrect. You are assuming that MK is going to continue with the Dtilt. In such a scenario MK can simply just reset spacing. MK can simply continue to perssure without worry and if Snake does try to follow up from his grenades, he'll be outranged or outspeeded by MK.

Snake can't just pull out a grenade and then he'll be fine. Dtilt hits too low and if a grenade does explode, his Dtilt outranges it.

I just don't see Snake being able to force MK into a position where he can trade hits (in which case he wins).

Dash grab explanation

Okay. I was curious about it mainly due to MK's sliding effect when he grabs the opponent.

Not really, they are pretty even when they get to their killing percents, except that Snake has projectiles giving him a slight advantage. The only characters that can really handle Snake's stage control are the one's with reflects or projectiles. MK has neither.

I agree that it is indeed hard to shake Snake's stage control but I think MK's capabilities allow him to prevent Snake from establishing a solid ground. His ability to pressure and zone would be capable of preventing Snake's capability of establishing his control. I've done somehing similar with sonic in which I move in and out of Snake's range so that he really doesn't have a moment to establish himself. I think its something Mk is more capable of because of his range.

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What anime are you watching though?

I'm looking for some good stuff while I'm waiting for ToraDora and Zero no Tsukima novels to be updated and translated.

Currently Shadow Skill.
I had seen the OVA when I was younger and figured I would look into it. Its not very good but its not bad. I do not recommend vampire knight. The title is totally misleading and the story just makes my eyes bleed.

One manga I recommend you read is eyeshield 21 and Claymore. Very good mangas and I am not sure about eyeshield but claymore has a faithful anime.

 

[Iwan]

I'd rather talk to pro players than random, theorycrafters on forums who can't win tournaments.

So you only listen to tournament winners.
That's neat.

OH, and btw, I've never heard of you.

 

[ShadowLink84]

He said tournament winners not famous people.
i can understand though because people who have won tournaments show they have skill and experience.
I disagree with it but it is understandable.

who would you listen to? your best friend or the doctor?

Although I kinda dislike it when people question me -_-;
Its rather irksome.

 

[Harbinger631]

Anther just posted two videos of him owning Meta-knight. Check em out.

 

[salaboB]

Anther just posted two videos of him owning Meta-knight. Check em out.

If you want to really be helpful with something like this you could link to the post where he links them. Just to be useful about it and all.

 

[Steel]

Anther just posted two videos of him owning Meta-knight. Check em out.

meta knight should no longer be banned. you have convinced me and probably everyone here tbh

 

[rehab]

Doesn't contain anything groundbreaking imo, but hey it's Anther being smart and not being dumb.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EktWz78Qz68

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jsGvhciLg5o

 

[M15t3R E]

Doesn't contain anything groundbreaking imo, but hey it's Anther being smart and not being dumb.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EktWz78Qz68

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jsGvhciLg5o

Bloo doesn't look too good. He does some of the things many MK's do, but he moves and attacks whole lot slower than most MK's I see.

 

[Harbinger631]

They're the loser's finals. I'm sure Bloo is no slouch.

 

[Dark.Pch]

I have a vid of me fighting a good meta with Peach and show how my character handles meta. Not sure if it will lead to things and what not but yea.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tJARnXY764A&fmt=18

This guy was good and I had to me patient and mostly defensive.

 

[fkacyan]

Like Mk is going to try and gimp Snake from above with the cypher directly below him. We both know that isn't what MK will do.

That's not what I'm saying.

Snake can airdodge off of the cipher, easily shutting down the Sh. Loop, and if he's at a high enough percent that waiting to kill him is viable and gets you a signifigant lead, the Snake isn't any indicator of the matchup at all.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Idk what people say. Snake has the advantage. Who ever came up with MK haveing an advantage? It certainly wasn't a notable Snake or MK player.

I'm not talking about M2k (alone). There are some other top MKs / Snakes (m2k, teh_spamerer, inui, infernoomni, jesiah...) who are certain that it's in Snake's favour and the reasons are much better than the stupid "zofmg MK fucking gimps Snake all teh time ololololol" (which typically comes from pro-ban dudes). The reasons are convincing enough...there just isn't any video material I can think off

When MK became the top characters in terms of wins it was basically the community consensus. There were a few hold-outs (M2K for example), but the majority of the community accepted that, with good spacing, MK won this match-up and this was evidenced by his rise to top tier.

Before then, the advantage was considered Snake's, however, people called BS on this, saying it was just MKs "jumping into the ****". Emblem Lord was the first to put it into these terms.

Currently, we have individuals like LeeHaris and Emblem Lord saying that it's MK's advantage, both quite notable and Emblem Lord especially noted for his match-up analysis of characters he knows.


And really you'll notice that the change in community consensus (to being divided) only came about when MK's banning became a significant consideration, mostly from the anti-ban crowd... hmmm, I wonder why (not suggesting conscious lying, subconscious bias will do).



The point being, don't follow the crowd, think for yourself. MK safely outranges Snake (Snake wins in overall range, but his moves that outrange MK are slow and punishable). Sure he can use grenades to disrupt and prevent certain approaches, but what happens when MK gets into optimal spacing? Does he has the tools to reliably, and in a way MK cannot punish, disrupt that spacing for something better for him? Does he have the tools to prevent the spacing in the first place?

Those are the questions that you should be asking, not, "who supports what".



Then argue your side, and figure out what the critical points are (what specific data, if you were incorrect about, would make your analysis wrong), then debate about it. If you're wrong, information will be presented that will show you wrong.

At which point he'll usually be eating a f-tilt or u-tilt if the grenade drop was a setup.

If he outspaced the grenade, he obviously outspaced the first hit of the ftilt, and MK's dtilt is massively safe.

Check the frame data

There's no way Snake will get to his frame 16 second hit before MK can execute another dtilt, and he's definitely outranged the utilt.

That can't be right. that is too long compared to snakes Ftilt. If I an not mistaken isn't snakes Ftilt like 3-4 frames?

Nah, it's right. Frame 3 Mk's dtilt is out, IASA frames start on frame 15.

Snake's ftilt hits first on frame 4, then 16. But The frame 4 hit is, while long ranged, totally outranged by MK's dtilt. It's not even close. The frame 16 attack outranges MK's dtilt, but it's not safe at all, and 16 means, "it'll hit if MK fell asleep".

This is wrong. A fully spaced dtilt is the only move that doesn't get hit by a dropped nade. The dtilt is much easier to deal with than you think. Just Shield it and drop the shield. No mater what move MK uses, it will always be powershielded if he attacks right afterwards (which he obviously has to do to pressure Snake). And a ftilt out of a powershield is a guaranteed hit.

No way. It's frame 16 before It actually hits. Hitbox is about 3-7, and snake needs another frame to shielddrop. So, frame 9 of MK's attack Snake starts ftilt. Frame so, frame 25 of MK's dtilt, Snake's attack hits. 10 frames after IASA frames kick in. So he's got 7 frames to shield the obscenely unsafe second hit, or dtilt, or do whatever else he wants.

I'd rather talk to pro players than random, theorycrafters on forums who can't win tournaments.

So you'd rather take their word at face value, with no reasoning whatsoever, then go through actual logical argumentation based on the mechanics of the the game to figure stuff out.

Meet "appeal to authority fallacy", I think you two are destined to be wonderful friends.

The long and short of it is, the criteria for being a legendary player is knowing HOW to win, not WHY it works. The "why" helps, but if you get it subconsciously, then it really doesn't help in things like... match-up discussions, where application of the knowledge is important.

???

Yeah, I can tell you that d-tilt spamming is never a good idea against a good Snake. Frame data or not; you'll get punished each time. Jab-ftilt combo for Snake interupts a lot of everything.

Once is all that's needed for the frametrap. Anyway, dtilt SIGNIFIGANTLY outranges jab.

The point of the grenade camping is stop the MK from spacing as he should.

Which does nothing if it's in a range that he isn't really affected by it.

Aka, perfectly spaced dtilt range.

It prevents him from ACQUIRING the spacing, to a degree, but once he has it, pulling grenades becomes punishable.

Metaknight's d-tilt pushes his body forward. One or two d-tilts will put you into jab range. A powershielding Snake will jab-ftilt you.

Lol, at max, he only needs twice in a row max, technically only one to initiate the frametrap, but in a lot of cases it's easier to dtilt again.

You only crawl if they're used twice in a row or more, and it's a frametrap, MK doesn't HAVE to dtilt again, it's merely one option. One he won't use if it bring him into punishable range

this is coming from quite possibly one of the top 5 MKs

btw you should read the stuff he says in his other posts too, he actually knows what he's talking about

He knows how to WIN with MK, that doesn't mean he knows every technical specific.

Tournament ability is no indicator of ability to use data to come to correct conclusions on a topic. Your responses have been proof enough of that.

In theory, you're probably right Shadow.

But when you're in a tournament in the heat of the moment, you don't have time to space yourself perfectly. That d-tilt range can change from any factor including your opponent's movement. I'm not saying this from theory and frame data results, I'm saying this from hardcore results from playing Chillin in tourny and having G-regulate in my crew and pretty much a roommate.

The "heat of a tournament" issue is what we call "mindgames" and spacing ability. Some characters have better tools for both, but they both come down to actual player ability. So, basically, if you're getting ftilt'ed by a Snake, the Snake is better then you at one or both of those two things.

That's the entire reason why a Ganondorf can beat an MK if the Ganondorf is good enough.

Granted, everybody makes mistakes on occasion, everybody gets mindgamed on occasion. But the focus of match-up discussions are to figure who wins when played at the top of the metagame, and how many and how bad the mistakes have to be for them to lose, in addition to how likely those mistakes are to occur. Given that there's a rather large range difference between MK's dtilt and snake's ftilt's first hit, the mistake has to be pretty large.

Also, if for any reason you clank with Snake 9/10 you're going to be f-tilted. Clanking while using MK ends up in you doing the "Oh **** Neutral-A Storm Panic".

Ummm... really? My clanks have never ended up in neutral A panic. Granted, the vast majority of my clanks are with Marth when I'm jabbing a projectile. But even for other characters, it leaves me with a mentality that "clanks just mean my move was given IASA frames".

So, it's a weakness in the MK playstyle if they do that, NOT with MK himself.

Walking Dtilt, spaced well on shield? There's no guaranteed retaliation to a properly spaced Dtilt on shield. Like I said before, you wanna use the nades to prevent that perfect spacing in the first place.

Nades aren't some magic elixer that do everything. Sure they hurt him in getting that spacing. But not enough that he can't get it reliably. And when that happens, you've got nothing.

 

[Cirno]

Not unless this attack pushes Snake off the edge(higher percents/bad DI), all he has to do is time an air dodge+ fastfall or hold a nade for kamikaze recovery. I'm pretty sure dropping c4 would work too but I've never tried or seen it myself.

Fast fall airdodging doesn't work too well.
MK will always place himself in position where he can reach Snake with his blade. S if I fast fall an airdodge, MK can still land an attack because of the range of his moves.
I have seen people using grenades and C4 but not very often since its similar to Link's bomb recovery in that its a bit risky.

Every character tries to place their self where Snake lands. It just doesn't work well, due to if you're not chasing him upwards to beat his landing, all he has to do is drop c4. Multi jump characters however usually chase him up, airdodge the c4, and try to predict and counter his next move. D3 ***** this with his hammer, Kirby and Jigs usually get baired, and MK usually misses a nair or tornados and eats a nade.

not really. Mind you MK has multiple jumps. If I feel you will recover from high I can go back down, reset my multi jump and land camp you until I feel you are in an area where I feel safe.
its not as if I am dealing with Wario who is capable of moving about in the air very well, Snake is rather rigid in his motion so predicting where you will appear wont be difficult.

Wario's eaier to deal with. Watch his movement and then tornado. You don't need to be cautious of a c4 , nade, or nikita.

If you are under Snake the area in general is not safe unless you are far away enough that you won't get hit, in case his landing is secured. Snake's no Wario but neither is MK, with snake being a little faster(not considering his jump).

MK's best option is trying to catch a c4 drop with a shuttle loop before he can detonate.
All comes down to who predicts better there but, Snake is in the best position out of every character descending to the stage.

Incorrect. You are assuming that MK is going to continue with the Dtilt. In such a scenario MK can simply just reset spacing. MK can simply continue to perssure without worry and if Snake does try to follow up from his grenades, he'll be outranged or outspeeded by MK.

Snake can't just pull out a grenade and then he'll be fine. Dtilt hits too low and if a grenade does explode, his Dtilt outranges it.

I just don't see Snake being able to force MK into a position where he can trade hits (in which case he wins).

This section was pretty weird. You said I assumed MK would keep using d-tilt and then went on to explain how d-tilt would somehow defeat the grenade counter.

If MK's is resetting the spacing he's still not in a position to start the assault.
But let's assume somehow the d-tilt does detonate a grenade and Snake does nothing.

MK uses any attack or grab on him and he is now in a position to be pushed off the edge and gimped. What can Snake do to stop it? Air dodge and draw a grenade(Half of the time DI isn't even needed). Test it out-- please. Before MK can use anything again, that grenade is drawn, if he attacks after that they are both caught in the explosion and the process will repeat until Snake is allowed back onto the ground or MK dies over the top. Back to reset.


Instead of trading hits I should have said both take a hit. Mainly talking about his grenades. Snake can take a lot more safely than MK. Not to mention I've seen plenty explosions on both characters lead to uair death.

D-tilt of course doesn't work in the air, killing all safe approaches, and turning it into another game of prediction. On the ground if he's holding it, he drops it and is pushed away. MK's only option is to wait now. Every attack will detonate the grenade, and a dash grab (best used here) can be f-tilted(occasionally also detonating the grenade).

Okay. I was curious about it mainly due to MK's sliding effect when he grabs the opponent.

I'd have to test the pivot grab to see if he can escape it, but a normal one is somehow still in the huge explosion range after a forced drop.
=/

I agree that it is indeed hard to shake Snake's stage control but I think MK's capabilities allow him to prevent Snake from establishing a solid ground. His ability to pressure and zone would be capable of preventing Snake's capability of establishing his control. I've done somehing similar with sonic in which I move in and out of Snake's range so that he really doesn't have a moment to establish himself. I think its something Mk is more capable of because of his range.

A good Snake has 3 main safe periods to setup absolute stage control: At the start, after losing a stock and after heavy knockback(as smart players will use their invincibility frames to detonate the C4 and Land mines). Using grenades is only minor. At any of those points Sonic and MK are pretty limited.

MK is much better at preventing it( only second to those with projectiles), but unless you are not taking damage, not killing Snake, and not starting far away from Snake( in which case you would be able to win with a handicapped Captain Falcon) you can not prevent his eventual stage control. Only disrupt how much he has, and prevent him from gaining more.

Currently Shadow Skill.
I had seen the OVA when I was younger and figured I would look into it. Its not very good but its not bad. I do not recommend vampire knight. The title is totally misleading and the story just makes my eyes bleed.

One manga I recommend you read is eyeshield 21 and Claymore. Very good mangas and I am not sure about eyeshield but claymore has a faithful anime.

I have been reading Claymore. :D

Eyeshield 21 I haven't heard of though. :d
I'll give it a look see.

If he outspaced the grenade, he obviously outspaced the first hit of the ftilt, and MK's dtilt is massively safe.

Check the frame data

There's no way Snake will get to his frame 16 second hit before MK can execute another dtilt, and he's definitely outranged the utilt.

Thanks, the guess we had for frame data was correct anyway but, it's always nice to be sure.


The speed isn't the problem with getting hit by the f-tilt though, it's the spacing.


Check the spacing MK needs to have in order to safely detonate the nade.( If it hits Snake upon explosion it's not properly spaced)
Test with a partner and see if the second d-tilt reaches Snake.

He'll need to move forward.

Snake however, seeing his nade detonated only needs to f-tilt to repel him or force reset.

A Surprise boost-smash has worked well for me as well, but in theory it shouldn't.

 

[fkacyan]

Tournament ability is no indicator of ability to use data to come to correct conclusions on a topic. Your responses have been proof enough of that.

I love the implication that your theorycrafting is somehow superior to M2k's (And other pros') tourney experience.