Idk what people say. Snake has the advantage. Who ever came up with MK haveing an advantage? It certainly wasn't a notable Snake or MK player.
I'm not talking about M2k (alone). There are some other top MKs / Snakes (m2k, teh_spamerer, inui, infernoomni, jesiah...) who are certain that it's in Snake's favour and the reasons are much better than the stupid "zofmg MK f
ucking gimps Snake all teh time ololololol" (which typically comes from pro-ban dudes). The reasons are convincing enough...there just isn't
any video material I can think off
When MK became the top characters in terms of wins it was basically the community consensus. There were a few hold-outs (M2K for example), but the majority of the community accepted that, with good spacing, MK won this match-up and this was evidenced by his rise to top tier.
Before then, the advantage was considered Snake's, however, people called BS on this, saying it was just MKs "jumping into the ****". Emblem Lord was the first to put it into these terms.
Currently, we have individuals like LeeHaris and Emblem Lord saying that it's MK's advantage, both quite notable and Emblem Lord especially noted for his match-up analysis of characters he knows.
And really you'll notice that the change in community consensus (to being divided) only came about when MK's banning became a significant consideration, mostly from the anti-ban crowd... hmmm, I wonder why (not suggesting conscious lying, subconscious bias will do).
The point being, don't follow the crowd, think for yourself. MK safely outranges Snake (Snake wins in overall range, but his moves that outrange MK are slow and punishable). Sure he can use grenades to disrupt and prevent certain approaches, but what happens when MK gets into optimal spacing? Does he has the tools to reliably, and in a way MK cannot punish, disrupt that spacing for something better for him? Does he have the tools to prevent the spacing in the first place?
Those are the questions that you should be asking, not, "who supports what".
Then argue your side, and figure out what the critical points are (what specific data, if you were incorrect about, would make your analysis wrong), then debate about it. If you're wrong, information will be presented that will show you wrong.
At which point he'll usually be eating a f-tilt or u-tilt if the grenade drop was a setup.
If he outspaced the grenade, he obviously outspaced the first hit of the ftilt, and MK's dtilt is massively safe.
Check the frame
data
There's no way Snake will get to his frame 16 second hit before MK can execute another dtilt, and he's definitely outranged the utilt.
That can't be right. that is too long compared to snakes Ftilt. If I an not mistaken isn't snakes Ftilt like 3-4 frames?
Nah, it's right. Frame 3 Mk's dtilt is out, IASA frames start on frame 15.
Snake's ftilt hits first on frame 4, then 16. But The frame 4 hit is, while long ranged, totally outranged by MK's dtilt. It's not even close. The frame 16 attack outranges MK's dtilt, but it's not safe at all, and 16 means, "it'll hit if MK fell asleep".
This is wrong. A fully spaced dtilt is the only move that doesn't get hit by a dropped nade. The dtilt is much easier to deal with than you think. Just Shield it and drop the shield. No mater what move MK uses, it will always be powershielded if he attacks right afterwards (which he obviously has to do to pressure Snake). And a ftilt out of a powershield is a guaranteed hit.
No way. It's frame 16 before It actually hits. Hitbox is about 3-7, and snake needs another frame to shielddrop. So, frame 9 of MK's attack Snake starts ftilt. Frame so, frame 25 of MK's dtilt, Snake's attack hits.
10 frames after IASA frames kick in. So he's got 7 frames to shield the obscenely unsafe second hit, or dtilt, or do whatever else he wants.
I'd rather talk to pro players than random, theorycrafters on forums who can't win tournaments.
So you'd rather take their word at face value, with no reasoning whatsoever, then go through actual logical argumentation based on the mechanics of the the game to figure stuff out.
Meet
"appeal to authority fallacy", I think you two are destined to be wonderful friends.
The long and short of it is, the criteria for being a legendary player is knowing HOW to win, not WHY it works. The "why" helps, but if you get it subconsciously, then it really doesn't help in things like... match-up discussions, where application of the knowledge is important.
???
Yeah, I can tell you that d-tilt spamming is never a good idea against a good Snake. Frame data or not; you'll get punished each time. Jab-ftilt combo for Snake interupts a lot of everything.
Once is all that's needed for the frametrap. Anyway, dtilt SIGNIFIGANTLY outranges jab.
The point of the grenade camping is stop the MK from spacing as he should.
Which does nothing if it's in a range that he isn't really affected by it.
Aka, perfectly spaced dtilt range.
It prevents him from ACQUIRING the spacing, to a degree, but once he has it, pulling grenades becomes punishable.
Metaknight's d-tilt pushes his body forward. One or two d-tilts will put you into jab range. A powershielding Snake will jab-ftilt you.
Lol, at max, he only needs twice in a row max, technically only one to initiate the frametrap, but in a lot of cases it's easier to dtilt again.
You only crawl if they're used twice in a row or more, and it's a frametrap, MK doesn't HAVE to dtilt again, it's merely one option. One he won't use if it bring him into punishable range
this is coming from quite possibly one of the top 5 MKs
btw you should read the stuff he says in his other posts too, he actually knows what he's talking about
He knows how to WIN with MK, that doesn't mean he knows every technical specific.
Tournament ability is no indicator of ability to use data to come to correct conclusions on a topic. Your responses have been proof enough of that.
In theory, you're probably right Shadow.
But when you're in a tournament in the heat of the moment, you don't have time to space yourself perfectly. That d-tilt range can change from any factor including your opponent's movement. I'm not saying this from theory and frame data results, I'm saying this from hardcore results from playing Chillin in tourny and having G-regulate in my crew and pretty much a roommate.
The "heat of a tournament" issue is what we call "mindgames" and spacing ability. Some characters have better tools for both, but they both come down to actual player ability. So, basically, if you're getting ftilt'ed by a Snake, the Snake is better then you at one or both of those two things.
That's the entire reason why a Ganondorf can beat an MK if the Ganondorf is good enough.
Granted, everybody makes mistakes on occasion, everybody gets mindgamed on occasion. But the focus of match-up discussions are to figure who wins when played at the top of the metagame, and how many and how bad the mistakes have to be for them to lose, in addition to how likely those mistakes are to occur. Given that there's a rather large range difference between MK's dtilt and snake's ftilt's first hit, the mistake has to be pretty large.
Also, if for any reason you clank with Snake 9/10 you're going to be f-tilted. Clanking while using MK ends up in you doing the "Oh **** Neutral-A Storm Panic".
Ummm... really? My clanks have never ended up in neutral A panic. Granted, the vast majority of my clanks are with Marth when I'm jabbing a projectile. But even for other characters, it leaves me with a mentality that "clanks just mean my move was given IASA frames".
So, it's a weakness in the MK playstyle if they do that, NOT with MK himself.
Walking Dtilt, spaced well on shield? There's no guaranteed retaliation to a properly spaced Dtilt on shield. Like I said before, you wanna use the nades to prevent that perfect spacing in the first place.
Nades aren't some magic elixer that do everything. Sure they hurt him in getting that spacing. But not enough that he can't get it reliably. And when that happens, you've got nothing.