The Official "Should/Will Metaknight be banned?" Thread (LISTEN TO THE SBR PODCAST!)

[The Real Inferno]

You made this?

Dude I ****ing love this picture. I saw it, and I was like "top tier". Would you mind if I made a shirt?

Sure, knock yourself out

 

[1048576]

meta knight shouldn't be banned
for the simple reason everyone can play/main him
nothing stops you from playing meta knight yourself

so even though I have alot of trouble against good meta knights as a falcon main, I think meta knight should not be banned, he is a part of the game, and should stay a part of the game

Your logic would keep Akuma around, therefore you should kill yourself.

 

[Nic64]

Brawl would be the most balanced smash game without metaknight.

lol, maybe, *maybe* by number of viable options, maybe, definitely not by % of the cast, though.

 

[JustKindaBoredUKno]

i'm sure its been said before, i'm sure it'll be said again. I just feel like ranting.

Meta Knight needs to be banned, but its argued for all the wrong reasons. It really doesn't help the cause when some illinformed scrub says "omg he's 2 br0k3n he beat me alot."

Face it. If there was even one more character that could legitimatly beat MK, then this wouldn't be a problem. This is the arguement to saying "well Fox wasn't banned." He didn't need ot be, there were others. And even then, Fox could be chaingrabbed and 0-death'd. Hands down, MK =/= Fox.

MK needs to be banned, simply because he hinders the advancement of this game. People tend to argue "well what if I mained MK since day one, its not fair that I should have to switch." Thats one character. Countless numbers of people have had to switch from their character to MK to beat MK. Its even more unfair on a grander scale.

The advancement of other characters are also being hindered. I haven't seen any new useful AT's in awhile from the more "top tier" characters, yet I've seen flying ganons and wavedashing yoshis. This is because they have the dedicated players who find these things. MK is pulling away the support from others to him. This is why the arguement "people just need to stick to their mains and find a way to defeat MK." doesn't work. Other characters are losing further and further support everyday because of MK. The longer it goes on, the more MKs there are, the less other characters there are.

There is no reason why a soft ban shouldn't be tried out.

 

[aeghrur]

A soft ban is in progress right now, it's not working because this is America. We play to win, who follows soft bans?

 

[BigLøu]

meta knight shouldn't be banned
for the simple reason everyone can play/main him
nothing stops you from playing meta knight yourself

I think thats one of the main reasons people want him banned is becuase with no other option present, they turn to use mk instead of tryin to get better and learn that their mk is actually better then their old main so they use that instead creating even more mk mains. I personally really don't care what happens to him. I have a difficult time playing against mk because i use luigi, but i feel after enough practice against him i can find ways around his disjointed hitbox. O well i guess we'll wait and see <__<

 

[AlphaZealot]

Sooo...I'm sorry AZ, because I have the utmost respect for you, both as a person and a smasher. I've always been a huge fan of yours, followed you in melee, your contributions to MLG, and now with brawl. But....

This is without question the dumbest **** I've ever, ever heard. Ever. If anything this post will contribute to metaknight being banned.

You might want to edit that post.
Or not. Just a suggestion.

1) The quote is alluding to something that occurred in a different thread, I was not the first to bring up the example-view below.
2) The post I made was used to completely and utterly misrepresent the anti-ban side, in the same light in which the quoted text in the post misrepresented the anti-ban side. It should be obvious from the wording in the post that that is not at all my actual stance on the subject nor do I believe it to be a legitimate argument.
3) Apparently people love to take stuff out of context, I hope OS doesn't really want to get into a sig-quote war. Sarcasm/hyperbole are hard to detect on the internetz I guess.
4) You are probably right. I've now edited it to simply reference the below statement.

The original Jesus argument!

In order for an analogy to hold any weight in a debate, you have to prove why it is true. Analogies are usually used to help describe complex ideas in terms that people can understand. I could just as easily say "MK is like Jesus, and he was killed even though he was good, so don't ban MK." Clearly this is ridiculous because I didn't explain how MK is like Jesus. So until you can tell me how MK is like a disease and will destroy the community if left alone, I'll be antiban...

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=5742405&highlight=disease#post5742405

 

[-Nana-]

meh forget it no point

You clearly can't grasp a simple point dude. Don't tell me not too ****ing cherry pick when you do the same thing yourself. The point is Lee won. He won with Lucario just like he would have won as MK. And concerning your ridiculous assumption of him Lucario winning because there was no MK that's garbage. Azen plays a ton of MK's by competitive to Elite players and still wins including against people like Plank and M2K. You seem to think that all of these arguments against MK aren't theoretical. Ok then let's bring factual information in.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=203054 - 1st-Marth the highest MK placed 4th. Check both results.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=203002 - Not a single MK in top 7.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=193184 - CH4 Azen won he used mostly Lucario.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=203075 - Highest MK placed was 5th.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=200715 - A 167 PERSON TOURNEY. DK won. Then Falco and ZSS.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=201706 - I hosted this. One person used MK ONCE the entire tourney and the rest of the time relied on Pit. He also did not place well.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=200262 - MK came in 2nd. First was Wolf/Snake.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=200258- An MK won this, but that was the only one in the top 7.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=197510 - GAW won an 80 person tournament. An MK/DDD came in 7th.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=200267 - an MK placed 4th.

I can't find the thread but there was also another tourney where Pierce, a Marth player, got first. Also another tourney that comes to mind is HOBO and M2K won who played MK and Azen came second with Lucario.

Point being all your non-theoretical info doesn't add up because there are really only a few reasons to ban MK.

1. He's out of control and is winning nearly every tourney.

2. Not only is he winning the high rankings (top 7) are also taken up by nearly all MK.

3. His meta game evolves to the point where it seems IMPOSSIBLE to beat him with a character other than MK which would really just be a reflection of 1 and 2.

4. Advanced tactics are discovered such as infinite cape that also make it nearly impossible to fight MK, which in that case, those can all be banned before he gets banned.

So really, all these scenarios of him dominating tournies are theoretical, because this certainly isn't taking place right now and until it does we really have NO reason to ban him. The people winning tournaments are top players for the most part and reguardless whether or not they use MK they would win because they are top players. This is PROVEN by the tournament where MK was banned and an MK main still won.

This thread is just getting ridiculous and there's no point in bringing this up until MK is actually COMPLETELY dominating tournaments.

 

[-Nana-]

NL is extremely inconsistent and loses to MK players more than he defeats them. His victories against M2K/Omni were due to matchup inexperience.

You have no clue what you're talking about.

 

[AlphaZealot]

You have no clue what you're talking about.

We already established this when he said that in the Diddy versus MK match up all MK has to do is approach on the ground. LeeHarris is extremely biased against Diddy Kong for some reason-maybe because I'm biased in favor of the little monkey. Shrug.

And as NL has already stated, he is pretty much 30-2 against MK, with those two loses having like a 3 month gap-and in that time frame he has beat most of the top MK players in the country.

 

[-Nana-]

Ah I see. I missed this. I havn't really checked the last few pages I just saw what Shadowlink said then LeeHarris' claim.

 

[Zankoku]

Did you just call him Shadowlink? lol

 

[Gindler]

Even if the makers didn't intend for MK to be as good as he is.

They didn't intend to program wave-dashing into melee and that wasn't banned...just sayin'

 

[Calixto]

Wavedashing was different, every character could wavedash, everyone could wavedash if they wanted to. Not all characters are lagless or powerful or etc. as Metaknight is.

 

[OmegaXXII]

The advancement of other characters are also being hindered. I haven't seen any new useful AT's in awhile from the more "top tier" characters, yet I've seen flying ganons and wavedashing yoshis. This is because they have the dedicated players who find these things. MK is pulling away the support from others to him. This is why the argument "people just need to stick to their mains and find a way to defeat MK." doesn't work. Other characters are losing further and further support everyday because of MK. The longer it goes on, the more MKs there are, the less other characters there are.

There is no reason why a soft ban shouldn't be tried out.

Well true, but I only believe Meta-Knight should be banned with limitations, what limitations am I referring to? well limitations such as no Dimensional Cape allowed, but of course this kind of limitation would strictly have to be monitored by a Tournament Director in order to prevent any kind of foul play between players, I do agree that this may not be the best solution, but at least we won't have to deal with the fact of Meta-Knight have having to be completely banned from tournament play.

 

[ThaRoy]

Well true, but I only believe Meta-Knight should be banned with limitations, what limitations am I referring to? well limitations such as no Dimensional Cape allowed, but of course this kind of limitation would strictly have to be monitored by a Tournament Director in order to prevent any kind of foul play between players, I do agree that this may not be the best solution, but at least we won't have to deal with the fact of Meta-Knight have having to be completely banned from tournament play.

No. Just no.

 

[OmegaXXII]

^Care to anaylze?

 

[OmegaXXII]

Please excuse this post, an error occurred

 

[aeghrur]

Too hard to monitor
Too much of a hassle
Pointless arguments will be caused because of a finger slip
IDC is already banned.
Banning DC doesn't do much good.

As for Nana's data on MK, yeah... biased. Doesn't show the side WITH MK dominating. =/
You have to use both sides in conjunction, otherwise, the data holds little value.
Without the whole, what would you compare those tournies too? Oh, look, metaknight didn't win 10 tounaments, well, out of how many? 10? 20? 30? 100? If he didn't win 10/100 and won the rest 90/100, wouldn't he still be dominating?
Anyways, I would go check Ankoku's list of tournies and calculate his october->november win percentage, but I'm too lazy atm, lol.

 

[judge!]

i 100% agree with omegakoopa. I think mk should have limits. Such as mk players cant cp stages that would knock down the metagame for him a lot i think. plus ok the top mk players only win the tourneys. if you play some sort of low *** tier char and exspect to win the tourney your crazy. even with mk banned u still would get owned by the pro GAW snake falco d3 players.

 

[Zankoku]

Placing a bunch of arbitrary handicaps on a character is almost more ridiculous than just banning that character.

Arguing that you'll lose to one of four different characters is not very helpful because that's theoretically better than losing to one character.

 

[Sephiroth27]

My mom beat me with Metaknight yesterday.

 

[JesiahTEG]

Ankoku I just woke up. Good morning.

 

[Turbo Ether]

Hello, this is my weekly "you're terrible at this game and spend too much time crying on the forums" rant.

You're an idiot if you think MK beats Snake. The best well-known Snakes are, like, DSF, Chillin, G-reg, and I guess Afro Thunder from Florida. To the best of my knowledge they manage to beat MKs of equal skill. The only two MKs that you'll likely see beat Chillin are M2K or Azen maybe, and they're the best players in the nation. Also, M2K, the best, most-knowledgeable MK, claimed he would lose to a Snake that was on his level. Not sure why anyone would ignore that.

I don't understand why the midwest wants to ban MK, when they're getting ***** by Pikachu. What MK player in the midwest is winning to the point that people want the character banned? Also, R.O.B is not a great character.

 

[Zankoku]

Also, M2K, the best, most-knowledgeable MK, claimed he would lose to a Snake that was on his level. Not sure why anyone would ignore that.

M2K claims a lot of things. It's difficult to know when he's right and when he's wrong, though he's always serious.

I don't understand why the midwest wants to ban MK, when they're getting ***** by Pikachu. What MK player in the midwest is winning to the point that people want the character banned? Also, R.O.B is not a great character.

Overswarm is not the sole representative, nor the most important representative, of the Midwest. Just the most vocal one.

 

[Turbo Ether]

Overswarm is not the sole representative, nor the most important representative, of the Midwest. Just the most vocal one.

I understand, I was just too lazy to not generalize

 

[Cirno]

What's your stand on the matter Ankoku?

 

[Genome Squirrel]

My mom beat me with Metaknight yesterday.

this made me happy, you should have your mom play at a tourney
that would prove that your mom is too good at brawl, and the we can finally ban your mom.

 

[Turbo Ether]

Because I don't use the opinions of a bunch of people that post on a forum for my conclusions, unless they are very very credible, and that's rare. I prefer matchup experience, opinions from top level players, knowledge I gain on my own (which usually I then tell to other good players and they agree with me)

It's kinda rare to see really good players posting on the character specific boards. Why? Because they don't need to, since they get actual experience from good players, using an analytical eye. Character boards are nice, but the furthest thing from anything I'd use to determine Brawl.

HOWEVER, there are exceptions. Emblem Lord's theories and strategies are brilliant, and he's so good at thinking of them that they are actual fact. Overswarm when he was in the R.O.B. forums was really really good and a lot of what he said was credible.

The Snake boards don't have many people like that.

One of the best, most-truthful posts in this thread hands-down. Jesiah must be my long-lost twin brother. I also agree with him that people exaggerate the hell out of Snake's "bad" matchups.

 

[Mew2King]

ummmm Lee you don't know anything about NL. NL beat me, 2-0d and 2 stocked infernoomni, and almost 2 stocked Azen's MK when Azen's Lucario won 3 of 4 matches. He also beat Forte at CH4. He ***** MKs --- MUCH --- more than he ever loses to them.

also as for that random friendly against Hylian - I 3 stocked him in the same matchup on battlefield the next game. That TX diddy only took a match off me in pools because I SDed with reverse up B at 2%.

 

[ShadowLink84]

You clearly can't grasp a simple point dude. Don't tell me not too ****ing cherry pick when you do the same thing yourself.

Oh so I go and post a single tournament and then act as if that proves my point?
Or I chose only a select number of tournaments to prove the point then ignore the rest of them?
Please, show where i have taken the results and picked them according to my argument.
No seriously.
To my knowledge, I haven't posted any specific results.
In fact, what I have posted was how MK has been doing as a WHOLE.

The point is Lee won. He won with Lucario just like he would have won as MK.

This proves what exactly?
The top 3 players remained the top 3 regardless of when Akuma had been banned in SF2.
It doesn't go and prove whether Mk should r should not be banned just because a handful of players are capable of winning without him.

And concerning your ridiculous assumption of him Lucario winning because there was no MK that's garbage.

Can you say Leeharris would have definitely beaten m2k's MK?
Without a doubt?
Can you say that any of the MK's in that tournament were of the same level as him?

M2K himself says he can win tournaments without MK, that wouldn't say anything about whether MK is an worthy or not.

Azen plays a ton of MK's by competitive to Elite players and still wins including against people like Plank and M2K. You seem to think that all of these arguments against MK aren't theoretical. Ok then let's bring factual information in.

Theoretical? Where have I made such a claim?
Anyways I'll address the tournaments.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=203054 - 1st-Marth the highest MK placed 4th. Check both results.

[/quote]
To my knowledge none of the MK's in that tournament were up to the skilllevel of Azen and Chu.
(which maes me think AZ's point about local tournaments holds true)

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=203002 - Not a single MK in top 7.

Not a single good MK was present either.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=193184 - CH4 Azen won he used mostly Lucario.

Azen was forced to switch to MK when he encountered someone's MK that gave him problems. (possibly means there is a possible playstyle that does well against Lucario to give Azen trouble).
which means MK was necessary in order for him to win the tournament.
meanwhile there are 3 other MK's present in the top 8.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=203075 - Highest MK placed was 5th.

I don't believe Diem's MK is exactly on par with Dojo's and m2k's Mk or Inui's for that matter. (correct me if I am wrong)

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=201706 - I hosted this. One person used MK ONCE the entire tourney and the rest of the time relied on Pit. He also did not place well.

So he uses MK once and generally does not place well so that's ammo for saying MK is not ban worthy?
All it shows is that someone yanked MK out once and probably wasn't good enough to place very high.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=200258- An MK won this, but that was the only one in the top 7.

Did anyone else good use MK?
Or what about your other tournament results where MK was present in the top 8 multiple times?

Point being all your non-theoretical info doesn't add up because there are really only a few reasons to ban MK.

What info exactly? if you look at everything Mk does indeed dominate. not by 50% but it is noticeable and rather than slowing down, has continued to increase over time.

1. He's out of control and is winning nearly every tourney.

What criteria do you draw this from?
A character does not necessarily have to win every single tournament in order to be considered ban worthy.

2. Not only is he winning the high rankings (top 7) are also taken up by nearly all MK.

Akuma did not take up all top 8 during his 9 month period in the U.S. so that is not entirely accurate.

3. His meta game evolves to the point where it seems IMPOSSIBLE to beat him with a character other than MK which would really just be a reflection of 1 and 2.

Ravager could be beaten with tooth and nail.
Do you believe that the ravager deck should not have been banned?
under your logic, as long as it is beatable by at least one or two other things it is perfectly allowable.
If that character suffocates the diversity of the game to a noticeable degree then it could be considered ban worthy.
The game doesn't have to break down to having to use that character to beat another character.

4. Advanced tactics are discovered such as infinite cape that also make it nearly impossible to fight MK, which in that case, those can all be banned before he gets banned.

The infinite cape wasn't banned because it made it impossible to fight MK.
That's a poor example.
It wasn't that you could not touch him but the fact that it was impossible to monitor and determine if it was stalling or not.

So really, all these scenarios of him dominating tourneys are theoretical, because this certainly isn't taking place right now and until it does we really have NO reason to ban him. The people winning tournaments are top players for the most part and regardless whether or not they use MK they would win because they are top players. This is PROVEN by the tournament where MK was banned and an MK main still won.

1. There have been no scenarios that say MK has been dominating all the tournaments. No one intelligent has been saying MK will reduce the game to MK only or that MK will take over tournament. What has been said is that MK does dominate the game and that he also damages the cp system. You are not forced to use Mk to beat him, but why should you use anyone else?
2. That is silly. if you are saying Mk is dominating only cause of the pros, then we should not **** the wins for every other character in which a pro has used them. Anther's Pikachu/Sonic wins.

Which would still mean that MK is dominating.
The professional MK users are not the only reason for MK winning.
Hence which is why the national tournaments tend to be only countered in which case, you notice that MK is placing well not only due to professionals using him.

This thread is just getting ridiculous and there's no point in bringing this up until MK is actually COMPLETELY dominating tournaments.

Wrong. A character does not need to win 100% of all tournaments to be banned.
DAD decks do not win 100% of all tournaments but needs to be banned.

Something does not have to dominate the tournament scene completely in order to be banned.
Hence why Old Sagat was soft banned in Japan and some consider him ban worthy in the U.S.

Mind you I am not for or against the ban. I am in the, its too early to tell group.
previously I was anti ban but figured that its best to wait until any solid conclusion can be made. *shrug*

 

[salaboB]

NL beat me

And could he do it again?

From all descriptions, when fighting Diddy an MK player must seriously change their playstyle.

 

[judge!]

snake and diddy counter mk!!!!!!!

 

[judge!]

And could he do it again?

From all descriptions, when fighting Diddy an MK player must seriously change their playstyle.

this may seem like a shock to half of you people but did you know the diddy kong can change there playstyle 2!!!!! omg ino other chars can play differnt to. so scary to think about

 

[salaboB]

this may seem like a shock to half of you people but did you know the diddy kong can change there playstyle 2!!!!! omg ino other chars can play differnt to. so scary to think about

Yes, but you don't seem to understand my point.

When fighting Diddy, an MK can't just charge in and attack the opponent the way they can when fighting anyone else. No matter the playstyle of the Diddy (Unless that Diddy uses no bananas) this will be true.

What this means is that for first time, skilled Diddy encounters, you're going to have to figure out something different to do and lose until you figure it out. That means Diddy very likely gets a huge unfamiliar matchup bonus. If NL can't replicate his win against M2K using Diddy, it demonstrates what I'm saying: He won because M2K wasn't familiar with the playstyle he'd have to shift to in order to handle bananas.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Forget the idea just thought of something.

 

[judge!]

i understand what your saying 100%. but didnt M2K just say that wasent the problem?. and NL doesnt loose to mk players.


And also lmao at the midwest trying to ban mk. From what iv seen of the mk players there not that impresseive. Anther kills every tourney he goes 2. support your proof on the midwest banning mk and maybe i would agree.

 

[adumbrodeus]

this may seem like a shock to half of you people but did you know the diddy kong can change there playstyle 2!!!!! omg ino other chars can play differnt to. so scary to think about

Don't double post...

And make your posts readable.



Now then, that's not the point. The optimal playstyle for MK against most characters is different then against Diddy. Unless a new style is to be discovered Ninjalink was playing diddy optimally against MK.

Therefore, if it cannot be replicated it means M2K wasn't playing optimally against Ninjalink, but now that he knows how to play optimally against Diddy, it will not happen again.

This is what SalaboB was trying to say.

snake and diddy counter mk!!!!!!!

Diddy possibly.

Snake is a no. He simply does not have the tools to counter MK, all he really has over MK is killing power and ability to disrupt his be moves.

 

[salaboB]

Snake is a no. He simply does not have the tools to counter MK, all he really has over MK is killing power and ability to disrupt his be moves.

M2K actually disagrees, he's now saying 55:45 Snake.

This is a change from what he was saying near the start of this thread afaik, so it may be him feeling pressured to defend MK and slowly pushing what he can reasonably judge things as. Or it may be accurate, or just based on a Snake player near him that beats his strategies and skews his judgment of the matchup. It's extremely hard to tell since tournament results don't really indicate that Snake beats MK.

(He also says all the Snakes just play wrong, but when he described beating an MK he just said he grenade camped and tilted whenever the MK approached. Which I believe is what most of the better Snake players already try.)

 

[Cirno]

If NL can't replicate his win against M2K using Diddy, it demonstrates what I'm saying: He won because M2K wasn't familiar with the playstyle he'd have to shift to in order to handle bananas.

Couldn't the same be said about any other character?

The reason they lose to MK is because they aren't familiar with the playstyle they need to switch to in order to handle him?