The Official "Should/Will Metaknight be banned?" Thread (LISTEN TO THE SBR PODCAST!)

[AlphaZealot]

If Diddy doesn't take as much technical skill as the most technical Melee characters, the better players should be able to easily pick him up (Because they'd understand how to do the button twitchy thing, from Melee). I think it's more a case of him not being as effective as people would like once you get familiar with the matchup and how to actually grab bananas yourself.

Theory. Not reality.

Case in point, has anyone posting about banning MK ever even fought against Diddy Kong? IF so, who?

 

[ShadowLink84]

I havet o point out a fallacy. Saying if one person can do it another person can is silly.
According to that logic if I beat M2K's MK with Sonic consistently, then someone else will be able to replicate it eventually.

is it me or are we off topic

 

[salaboB]

Case in point, has anyone posting about banning MK ever even fought against Diddy Kong? IF so, who?

This matters for banning MK as much as M2K being beaten once by a Diddy matters for not.

I did explain why that didn't matter, you could address the point if you want me to address this one.

 

[da K.I.D.]

stop bringing up sonic, makes you look like a fanboy,

you are more credible if you use different examples.

also to the "if one can everyone will logic"
that just means that everyone that plays MK will eventually be as dominant as M2K

 

[DraKmoN001]

also to the "if one can everyone will logic"
that just means that everyone that plays MK will eventually be as dominant as M2K

Pardon my semantics nit picking, but...

The question is pointless though, if one person can do it, other can and will eventually, Marth/Jiggly are proof of this concept in Melee. Actually, MK is proof of this concept in Brawl, as M2K copied Forte's MK, and DSF copied M2K's MK. The big difference here is that you can learn MK quickly, Diddy takes a long time because its a harder to learn/more complicated character (plus you have to have technical skill on par with some Melee characters).

I think it's important to point out that AZ's logic seems to be more like "if one can, then someone else eventually can", not so much "if one can everyone will". There's a difference between the two.

 

[Tien2500]

Nanners is probably the next best Diddy after NL.

The question is pointless though, if one person can do it, other can and will eventually, Marth/Jiggly are proof of this concept in Melee. Actually, MK is proof of this concept in Brawl, as M2K copied Forte's MK, and DSF copied M2K's MK. The big difference here is that you can learn MK quickly, Diddy takes a long time because its a harder to learn/more complicated character (plus you have to have technical skill on par with some Melee characters).

Also, not that I have to, but in my first tournament in 5-6 months I got third (out of 67 people), including going to winners finals and taking it to game 5 against a person with 10X the tournament experience than me and who was using supposedly the best/broken character in the game (the person being Inui, who the weekend just before beat NL 2-0). If MK was actually so amazing, I should have been dominated. I wasn't.

No its not a pointless question... I'm not saying Diddy doesn't counter or neutral MK. But until we see it being replicated reliably we can't say that. It what you say is true then we should see this in a few months.

 

[salaboB]

No its not a pointless question... I'm not saying Diddy doesn't counter or neutral MK. But until we see it being replicated reliably we can't say that. It what you say is true then we should see this in a few months.

Also, why number of Diddys matter: Until people get to practice against an opponent that requires them to adapt their playstyle, that opponent will have the matchup unfamiliarity advantage going for them. With only one really good Diddy roaming around, that matchup experience is currently going to be slow to build.

Yes, theory for matchups is at the top level of play and we assume at that level everyone knows them all. But when a character is just being pushed to new levels, reality is that people simply don't know the matchup and it provides an advantage for the less used character at even the highest levels of competition.

 

[MrLuigiman]

Guys, it is never going to end, once meta knight is gone someone WILL find another all around crazy good player that they can actually play good as, and if it goes on like this, eventually all the the good characters, i know metaknight is CRAZY good, ive fought him with luigi, but that doesnt mean u can ban him, it is possible to beat him. So i will not vote him off.

 

[salaboB]

Guys, it is never going to end, once meta knight is gone someone WILL find a all around crazy good player that they can actually play good as, and if it goes on like this, eventually all the the good characters, i know metaknight is CRAZY good, ive fought him with luigi, but that doesnt mean u can ban him, it is possible to beat him. So i will not vote him off.

...no.

Once MK is gone we will not ban anyone else unless someone finds an AT for a new character that makes them only have neutral matchups at worst -- at which point we'll probably unban MK and see how that goes, first.

That is extremely unlikely.

 

[MrLuigiman]

But it is possible someone could find another character just as good as mk and use him the same way he used mk, plus mk is still possible to defeat.

 

[ShadowLink84]

its not possible to find a character as good as MK.
M is possible to defeat but who cares? So is Akuma

 

[AlphaZealot]

Akuma is not comparible. I don't play traditional fighters, but the players on these boards who do, Scamp for example, have repeatedly said that Akuma is far, far better than MK. No other characters stood a chance at the top levels of play, and we know this is not true in Brawl because otherwise we wouldn't even be having a debate.

 

[Ken Neth]

But it is possible someone could find another character just as good as mk and use him the same way he used mk, plus mk is still possible to defeat.

No it's not. Every other character has bad matchups, while MK has none. That is why people are arguing that he is so good, because you can use him safely in every situation. That and the fact that he ***** lol.

 

[∫unk]

I personally attacked him when he brought up those tournament results?
When?
I said he was cherry picking because he only brought up those tournament results that support his claim and ignored the other results that disagree.

If you mean after he responded by flaming me? yes.
Mainly since I responded to him rather well then saw he said he'd ignore it anyways so meh, screw it. Can't be bothered. Why should I waste my time? nor is it exactly the first time he's responded in such a manner.

You already wasted a crapload of time on this thread.

 

[da K.I.D.]

its also possible for some swallow based tech to be discovered for kirby to make him the best character in melee

 

[aeghrur]

FFS, people need to stop posting the stupid slippery slope fallacy argument.
Also, as stated a lot before, don't compare MK to Akuma, compare MK to Old Saget if anyone, err, IIRC.

 

[Tenki]

Ganondorf can fly. Therefore Metaknight is in danger of being stomped no matter where he is.

Except off stage.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Wait what?

 

[brinboy789]

FFS, people need to stop posting the stupid slippery slope fallacy argument.
Also, as stated a lot before, don't compare MK to Akuma, compare MK to Old Saget if anyone, err, IIRC.

compare MK to yun. no bad matchups, arguably neutral with 1 char. yun wasnt banned

 

[Kookie]

Or we could just stop comparing.

 

[salaboB]

compare MK to yun. no bad matchups, arguably neutral with 1 char. yun wasnt banned

Compare Brawl stages to any of the other fighting game stages (Except obv. Melee) for their impact on matchups and overall gameplay.

Oh look, no comparison at all.

 

[DraKmoN001]

Wait what?

Ganondorf can jump really high. It's very surprising and there are vids of this phenomenon too.

Edit: I should probably point out that the above text is a link.

 

[ShadowLink84]

oh no ****ing way!

THATS AMAZING!

 

[aeghrur]

Ganon, the official Metaknight counter. lol.

 

[dmbrandon]

Akuma is SF2, is joke, boss character. Even when the computer uses him, he's a monster. It's not applicable.

Now, someone mention Old Sagat. This is a good comparison. Notice, however, Sagat is still played, and beaten regularly. People figured **** out. That's when Balrog(Bison) went from mid-tier to top. God forbid you drama queens not cry about everything.

When this MK BS wears off, I suggest going to the Soul Calibur 4 boards. You Lindsay Lohans will have **** tons of nonsense to cry about. Get lost.

 

[salaboB]

Akuma is SF2, is joke, boss character. Even when the computer uses him, he's a monster. It's not applicable.

Now, someone mention Old Sagat. This is a good comparison. Notice, however, Sagat is still played, and beaten regularly. People figured **** out. That's when Balrog(Bison) went from mid-tier to top. God forbid you drama queens not cry about everything.

When this MK BS wears off, I suggest going to the Soul Calibur 4 boards. You Lindsay Lohans will have **** tons of nonsense to cry about. Get lost.

Well, that shuts down every single argument I have. Your delivery of facts and rebuttals of evidence are simply amazing.

 

[Genome Squirrel]

What's the post count on this thread

Its over 9000!!!!!!!!!!!

we all have experience vs. metaknight.
after all of this discussion what more can the pro-ban side do ...
not much, its all been said, and the anti-ban side is content with the metagame including metaknight. if you think brawl is poorly balanced and are unwilling to accept the game for its flaws, perhaps you should quit there's no shame in abandoning a bad game

the fact of the matter is metaknights, good metaknights, have lost. he may have no exploitable weaknesses, insane range, an lag, and no bad matchups, and is able to consistently gimp, but about half the community is able to accept that (then again over 35% win with him). imo, he should be banned, because if fights are so largely uneven than matches aren't testing skill. but that's a subjective argument, its not fact. if so many people want him to remain a part of the game, than who am i to tell them they can't.
come up with better, new evidence if you really want him banned so much.

 

[1048576]

Lol. None of the other characters compare. Akuma is too good. Yun and Od Sagat have other characters at their level. It's kind of like how in Melee, you have a rock-paper-scissors string of soft counters with Shiek, Falco, and Marth, and then you have Fox, who goes even with all three. Fox is Yun, but notice how there are other characters who can compete on the same level. MK has no counters, like Melee Fox, but unlike Melee Fox, MK counters all the other high tier characters, save Snake. In other words, there is no reason not to play MK, whereas in Melee, there is a reason to play Sheik instead of Fox if your tourney has more Marths than Falcos.

Also, Melee Fox took a hell of a lot of practice, so much so that his character was limited to those with technical skill. Anyone can get good with MK in a relatively short period of time.

 

[HeroMystic]

Ganondorf can jump really high. It's very surprising and there are vids of this phenomenon too.

Holy ****....

 

[ProBrawler]

This thread is just one cycle of recurring arguments we have already answered. It's becoming pointless.

Edit: STOP ledge BAN STALLING!

 

[fkacyan]

Well, that shuts down every single argument I have. Your delivery of facts and rebuttals of evidence are simply amazing.

He doesn't need a good argument to be right.

You can support the ban all day, with the best-made arguments ever, but that doesn't mean the jury is going to come in with the verdict you want.

 

[salaboB]

He doesn't need a good argument to be right.

You can support the ban all day, with the best-made arguments ever, but that doesn't mean the jury is going to come in with the verdict you want.

Opinion is opinion, and without a good argument supporting it is useless in a discussion like this.

Edit: For instance, if he had shown up and announced MK should just be banned all the pro-MK people were just making excuses because they like playing as him, etc. etc. you'd have come down against him and not just accepted the opinion. The only reason you're defending it is because you agree.

 

[adumbrodeus]

He doesn't need a good argument to be right.

You can support the ban all day, with the best-made arguments ever, but that doesn't mean the jury is going to come in with the verdict you want.

True, but in order for a side to be accepted, a good argument must be put forth by it's supporters, otherwise nobody will be convinced and the side will lose, that simple.

However, the major point is, if a side CANNOT put forth a good argument and the other side can, the assumption is a good argument doesn't exist, which means the side they are opposing is right. Basically, good arguments for a side are not assumed, they are proven.

edit:

...

Really? I guess you don't see posts from adumbrodeus?

...

There are people like adumbrodeus who may not be m2k skill level but whose arguments are very well supported.

Did I just get name dropped? Lol

 

[Calixto]

So far it seems the major Pro-MK side arguments are "Wait and figure out the matchup" or "Be Azen. Lol".


Am I somewhere on target there?

 

[Zankoku]

You forgot "Stop sucking." and "No johns."

 

[Tien2500]

Akuma is SF2, is joke, boss character. Even when the computer uses him, he's a monster. It's not applicable.

Now, someone mention Old Sagat. This is a good comparison. Notice, however, Sagat is still played, and beaten regularly. People figured **** out. That's when Balrog(Bison) went from mid-tier to top. God forbid you drama queens not cry about everything.

When this MK BS wears off, I suggest going to the Soul Calibur 4 boards. You Lindsay Lohans will have **** tons of nonsense to cry about. Get lost.

The issue with Old Sagat was not thathe was unbeatable. The issue is that many characters simply had no chance against Sagat and him being in the game effectively halved the number of viable characters.

 

[XienZo]

So far it seems the major Pro-MK side arguments are "Wait and figure out the matchup" or "Be Azen. Lol".


Am I somewhere on target there?

Well, thats two, but there are others, like MK isn't that hard to beat, or MK doesn't have enough good matchups, or it doesn't affect standings of pros.


Olimar's perfect camping is SO not MK specific...


BTW, a bit off topic, but I never got how Wolf's shine makes him any more invincible than side stepping. Can he like cancel the frame after the invincibility one and then immediately shine again for constant invincibility or what?

 

[Zankoku]

Wolf's Shine gives him invulnerability on frame 1, as opposed to a spot-dodge's frame 5, and comes with a hitbox while it's at it.

 

[XienZo]

But can his vulnerability frames after the invincibility be canceled? Otherwise, he'll eat attacks like Wario's bite and Ike's aether.

 

[AlphaZealot]

So far it seems the major Pro-MK side arguments are "Wait and figure out the matchup" or "Be Azen. Lol".


Am I somewhere on target there?

Sigh, apparently people like to take things out of context and this was offensive, so I wiill just put the original quote I was alluding to here. Didn't mean to offend anyone:

In order for an analogy to hold any weight in a debate, you have to prove why it is true. Analogies are usually used to help describe complex ideas in terms that people can understand. I could just as easily say "MK is like Jesus, and he was killed even though he was good, so don't ban MK." Clearly this is ridiculous because I didn't explain how MK is like Jesus. So until you can tell me how MK is like a disease and will destroy the community if left alone, I'll be antiban...