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The Official "Should/Will Metaknight be banned?" Thread (LISTEN TO THE SBR PODCAST!)

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Mortimer

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*bolding added.

That was what I was doing...

I was arguing with the rule "one step at a time", I did not even reference the analogy.

In that particular case the long-term and short-decision results were better in the same decision, therefore the analogy fails to actually oppose my argument, so there was no point in arguing against it. I therefore did not comment on it.

Get it?
I'm not sure how you come up with that conclusion. Applying the analogy to the Meta Knight situation is straightforward: if you fail to ban Meta Knight, the long term consequences on the state of the game will be worse than if you immediately ban.

The "one step at a time" you're referencing was only in relation to that analogy. Selectively responding to it was taking it completely out of context.

Now, I know you disagree with the idea that leaving MK around will be worse in the long run, but I think the analogy expresses the idea quite well.
 

powuh_of_PIE

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Maybe this is what the SBR should be doing (though they probably are): creating useful and distinctive criteria for whether or not anyone - not just MK - is ban-worthy. All we're doing in here is quasi-useful whining which has gotten a little ridiculous. Perhaps the OP's idea of waiting a few months before really considering this is what we really need.

And if the metagame really does suffer because MK is not banned immediately, once he is banned we can go about working on it from there. Personally, I'm not going to worry about him too much, all my mains have almost-neutral matchups against him, I have bigger issues to worry about. (Freakin GaW...) And I'm sure I'm not the only one.

tl;dr I urge patience. And perhaps a 3-month thread lock till the metagame grows up a bit.
 

ToxicWaltz

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Maybe this is what the SBR should be doing (though they probably are): creating useful and distinctive criteria for whether or not anyone - not just MK - is ban-worthy. All we're doing in here is quasi-useful whining which has gotten a little ridiculous. Perhaps the OP's idea of waiting a few months before really considering this is what we really need.
I kind of agree with you.. it seems like all people are doing is complaining and not finding a solution. If you want him to stay in the game go find a counter to him. I don't care either way. I main Olimar and Ike.. am thinking about picking up Pit. He seems to be a known counter to two of my mains.. but I'd think of it more as a challenge.

Really.. try ya know.. finding a way to keep him in the game over complaining and griping about how he shouldn't be with no evidence to back it up.
 

Tbagz

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You cannot ban a character in brawl.

Hear me out for a minute, not as a Metaknight Main but as a respectful player.

You cannot ban characters from tournaments, doing so completley defeats the purpose of the game in all possible ways. Its un-just and Downright stupid, if we make rash discesions like this, idiots will now have the balls to start arguements of there own to get other things banned, and who knows? some how it could fall through. I have asked 5 of the members in my crew that i came by yesterday and they ALL said the same thing, i am the only MK Main in the crew, they all said "Tbagz, i hate your metaknight its too good sometimes, but no, he shouldnt be banned because that would be the stupidest choice the smash community could make, and playing your MK has helped me get alot better and figure out stratagies around him"

See, FIGURE OUT STRATAGIES to beat him, if you dont want to take the time to learn how to fight another character, that means, you have no dedication to brawl and your just to lazy at this game so you want to ruin other players fun.

Ax in my crew has developed a whole different Marth fighting style so he can beat my MK now. i used to 2 stock him every match, now hes developed a way to play MKs when he fights them, and he normally wins!

it takes TIME AND EFFORT, as anything you want to be good at does.

this discision is too rash and CANNOT be made so early into the games year..

think about it, most of you are Un-educated smash players on this forum most likely that are just kriby fan boys that want mk gone because your not good enough players to figure out how to beat him. (not to intend to insult kirby fan boys)

(dont forget there are the SMART people who take this choice very carefully on this forum, you guys know who you are)
 

Sonic The Hedgedawg

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It is relevant because he would be bannable under the same criteria, it is overly broad, and if a narrow enough criteria cannot be developed that is a useful distinction, then maybe he doesn't warrant a ban.

Both are important issues to consider.
sorry bud but I'm going to have to disagree.
-99% of the serious criteria for a ban would leave marth unscathed. (marth is reliably beatable by characters other than himself. He has bad stages. He has exploitable weaknesses, there are other charcters at his level, etc.)
-so what if marth DOES become bannable? that doesn't change whether or not MK is. Discussing Marth was novel at first, but now it's just old and is, still, hardly relevant.
 

swordgard

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You cannot ban a character in brawl.

Hear me out for a minute, not as a Metaknight Main but as a respectful player.

You cannot ban characters from tournaments, doing so completley defeats the purpose of the game in all possible ways. Its un-just and Downright stupid, if we make rash discesions like this, idiots will now have the balls to start arguements of there own to get other things banned, and who knows? some how it could fall through. I have asked 5 of the members in my crew that i came by yesterday and they ALL said the same thing, i am the only MK Main in the crew, they all said "Tbagz, i hate your metaknight its too good sometimes, but no, he shouldnt be banned because that would be the stupidest choice the smash community could make, and playing your MK has helped me get alot better and figure out stratagies around him"

See, FIGURE OUT STRATAGIES to beat him, if you dont want to take the time to learn how to fight another character, that means, you have no dedication to brawl and your just to lazy at this game so you want to ruin other players fun.

Ax in my crew has developed a whole different Marth fighting style so he can beat my MK now. i used to 2 stock him every match, now hes developed a way to play MKs when he fights them, and he normally wins!

it takes TIME AND EFFORT, as anything you want to be good at does.

this discision is too rash and CANNOT be made so early into the games year..

think about it, most of you are Un-educated smash players on this forum most likely that are just kriby fan boys that want mk gone because your not good enough players to figure out how to beat him. (not to intend to insult kirby fan boys)

(dont forget there are the SMART people who take this choice very carefully on this forum, you guys know who you are)

And you are? No offence but we are talking about high level metagame here, not low to medium one. Seriously, he is beatable, but if it takes you twice as much skill literally to beat your opponent, i would switch to metaknight myself if he wasnt banned. Its gonna devolve into this 1 character sooner or later, which i dont think will happen with marth. He will be more prevalent yes, but he will still have many neutrals matchups and weaknesses.
 

Browny

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See, FIGURE OUT STRATAGIES to beat him, if you dont want to take the time to learn how to fight another character, that means, you have no dedication to brawl and your just to lazy at this game so you want to ruin other players fun.
Only an MK main can say something that ridiculous (im being too polite) and not understand why.

Most of the best players have spent months figuring out strategies, far more combined than you could probably comprehend. And you know what they have found the best strategy is? Counter-pick MK with an MK ditto.
 

Koga

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Only an MK main can say something that ridiculous (im being too polite) and not understand why.

Most of the best players have spent months figuring out strategies, far more combined than you could probably comprehend. And you know what they have found the EASIEST strategy is? Counter-pick MK with an MK ditto.
Fixed that for you there

no seriously, that's what the problem is, they get frustrated while practicing and try that and it works, doesn't mean its the best way. Unless you believe we already know everything we'll ever need to know about this game and so that must be the best strategy. :joyful:
 

Browny

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Easiest, we can define that as the option with the least amount of risk, least amount of effort and giving the exact same reward as any other stragey one might find.

I think that also qualifies as best.
 

Julz

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Fixed that for you there

no seriously, that's what the problem is, they get frustrated while practicing and try that and it works, doesn't mean its the best way. Unless you believe we already know everything we'll ever need to know about this game and so that must be the best strategy. :joyful:
You're not contributing...

but I just believe we should definitely wait longer to explore other possible ways of beating him before taking any action.
 

Sonic The Hedgedawg

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Easiest, we can define that as the option with the least amount of risk, least amount of effort and giving the exact same reward as any other stragey one might find.

I think that also qualifies as best.
when your worst matchup is a mirror no matter the given stage...

*agrees with djbrowny*
 

Koga

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Easiest, we can define that as the option with the least amount of risk, least amount of effort and giving the exact same reward as any other stragey one might find.

I think that also qualifies as best.
Well I don't, see how that works?

if it gives the exact same reward as any other strategy one might find, then its not the best, as in: not better than the rest. just the best right now because we haven't learned everything yet, so its the easiest, not the best because we don't know enough to have an end all be all strategy
 

Julz

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@koga: We are going to give this some time. Discuss how long you think this should be. Also, do you think he's ban worthy as of now? As in to say are his current traits and his level of dominance considered ban worthy in your opinion?
 

Koga

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@koga: We are going to give this some time. Discuss how long you think this should be. Also, do you think he's ban worthy as of now? As in to say are his current traits and his level of dominance considered ban worthy in your opinion?
not really, because dominance is really all relative. I really don't think people are trying hard enough to beat him since he is such an easy character to pick up and play decently. and for that reason i think we should wait at least a year from now before we even consider banning him because of dominance, and even then we're not really banning Meta Knight, we're banning our own lazyness and desire for faster results.
 

Dark Sonic

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^^Or it could be that we've been looking and haven't really found anything. We thought Diddy could do it...but were wrong. We though DK could do it....but were wrong. We though G&W could do it...but were wrong. We thought Yoshi could do it...he's still got a shot. We even looked into Wario's grab release on MK...but were quickly proven wrong.

People are switching to MK because that's maximizing their chances of winning a tournament. It's playing to win. Actually, M2K just found a 0-40% combo with MK off of a glide attack. And even after the combo you can follow up with tornado, uair chains, ect. That's right, MK is still getting better, while other characters are just falling further and further behind.
 

Wafles

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Yoshi hardly has a shot. He's got pretty much one thing to help him, and that's the chaingrab -> spike combo, and that's just not enough.

Facing facts, MK at this rate is unstoppable, but this thread is entirely useless for the time being. The game is still way too new to determine anything for certain. Let's give it at least another 6 months to figure the metagame out a bit more before any conclusions are reached.


As for what to do in the mean time? Insult anyone who switched to MK recently and make them feel like a tier *****, because that's what they are. I have nothing against people who have used MK for a long time, but just about anyone making the switch recently is just trying to do better with a different character, and this makes them nothing but tier whores.
 

Daimonster

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I have nothing against people who have used MK for a long time, but just about anyone making the switch recently is just trying to do better with a different character, and this makes them nothing but Smart players.
fixed

10smartplayers
 

cutter

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As for what to do in the mean time? Insult anyone who switched to MK recently and make them feel like a tier *****, because that's what they are. I have nothing against people who have used MK for a long time, but just about anyone making the switch recently is just trying to do better with a different character, and this makes them nothing but tier whores.
Tier whores? Ever heard about playing to win? MK gives you the best chance to win a tournament, unfortunately.
 

Wafles

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And people who succumb to those instincts to switch characters just to abuse them are tier whores.

There's no way around it. Is it smart? Maybe, it can certainly help your chances to win, however it still makes you a tier *****.
 

Koga

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^^Or it could be that we've been looking and haven't really found anything. We thought Diddy could do it...but were wrong. We though DK could do it....but were wrong. We though G&W could do it...but were wrong. We thought Yoshi could do it...he's still got a shot. We even looked into Wario's grab release on MK...but were quickly proven wrong.

People are switching to MK because that's maximizing their chances of winning a tournament. It's playing to win. Actually, M2K just found a 0-40% combo with MK off of a glide attack. And even after the combo you can follow up with tornado, uair chains, ect. That's right, MK is still getting better, while other characters are just falling further and further behind.
we haven't been looking long or hard enough. How do i know this? because meta knights goodness is an all around thing, there's not one overwhelming thing he just does to his opponents, its his application. these kinds of things are always beatable and always counterable, we just haven't reached the level of skill to execute it yet.

as long as something can be overcome with skill its not broken enough to ban it
 

3GOD

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Stop trying to prove that he's good, try to prove that he's "too good". Those criteria can still be easily explained by, say, "He's popular" and "That just means he's the best character in the game".

Since Meta Knight still has a few match-ups many argue are 45:55 and 5-4, he still has match-ups where the opposition holds a reasonable chance at victory. It's when no such match-ups exist that he becomes "too good".

Just because people aren't bothering learning said match-ups better in order to beat MK does not mean it's not possible.
Stop ignoring important parts of my post. I never said Meta Knight was good or too good, nor did I try to prove that he was. I said that objective criteria for banning should be established, and I specifically said, "not just Meta Knight" when referring to the criteria.

Also, I did not intend my EXAMPLE to actually be the established criteria. I was simply trying to give an example of something objective that could be used.

However, I do feel that my suggested criteria have some validity. Certainly the criteria may be explained by "He's popular" or "That just means he's the best character in the game." But if a character is so popular and so good that he has twice as many points (on the Character Rankings List) as the 2nd highest ranked character, perhaps that character should be banned.

I'm not set on the number being twice as much, nor am I set on using the Character Rankings List at all. However, something objective should be used to determined if a character is ban-worthy, and the only objective measure I know of is the Character Rankings List.

question

What criteria do you think is necessary to ban a character (ANY CHARACTER) in brawl?

1. Character has no counters or poor matchups
2. Character has no poor stages
3. Character has shown to do reliabily well in local tournaments across the US, taking at least one placement in the top 3 on a consistent basis.
4. Character wins a multitude of local tournaments across the US
5. Character has shown to do reliably well in national tournaments across the US, taking several of the spots in the top 8.
6. Character fits the previous criteria consistently at high levels of play for at least half a year
7. Character prevents a large majority (3/4) of the other characters from being played competitively
8. Character has a even matchup at worst with a large majority (3/4) of the highest ranking characters on the tier list
9. Character has no other characters in the game that share these qualities

All of this criteria must be met.

This is mine
I like these criteria, but I feel like #1, #2, #7, #8, and #9 are somewhat subjective. Though, the SBR could probably come to a consensus on whether or not a certain character has met those.

Also, for #3, #4, #5, and #6, I think some numbers should be used instead of words like "consistently" and "multitude." In #7, for example, you used 3/4 as large majority. For #3-#6, I would use numbers like 75-90% depending on the criterion.
 

tha_carter

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Some of you MK-defenders are utterly ridiculous.

Seems as though if he had snakes tilts, G&Ws 'smashes and ikes AAA, you'd still say
"so what? work around it."

He's making the game less competitive. As Ive said, there's NO reason, other than sheer ignorance, to NOT play metaknight in competitive play. Thats a serious issue.
 

Praxis

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question

What criteria do you think is necessary to ban a character (ANY CHARACTER) in brawl?


1. Character has no counters or poor matchups
2. Character has no poor stages
3. Character has shown to do reliabily well in local tournaments across the US, taking at least one placement in the top 3 on a consistent basis.
4. Character wins a multitude of local tournaments across the US
5. Character has shown to do reliably well in national tournaments across the US, taking several of the spots in the top 8.
6. Character fits the previous criteria consistently at high levels of play for at least half a year
7. Character prevents a large majority (3/4) of the other characters from being played competitively
8. Character has a even matchup at worst with a large majority (3/4) of the highest ranking characters on the tier list
9. Character has no other characters in the game that share these qualities


All of this criteria must be met.



This is mine
1) Met.
2) Met.
3) Met- more tournament wins than the next 6 characters combined.
4) Met.
5) Have there been a lot of national tournaments? AFAIK Mew2King and DSF's MK's win most of the big ones.
6) Not sure yet.
7) Questionable.
8) Met.
9) Met.

We're not there yet, but we're getting close.

I'm in the "Metaknight should be considered for a ban, but we should some time first and see how things develop." camp.
 

Wafles

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Also, my opinion on criteria to ban a character.

1. Has no even or bad matchups.
2. Has taken top 3 in over 90% of the tournaments in the US.
3. Has won over 2/3 of the tournaments in the US.
4. Has an excessive amount of players (over 50% of tournament attendies)
-- Criteria for this:
-- 1. Used Metaknight as a main in the tourney.
-- 2. Counterpicked Metaknight and won with him.
5. A general consensus would agree that Metaknight is broken. (over 50% of the competitive community).

I don't think we're quite there.
 

Dark Sonic

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we haven't been looking long or hard enough. How do i know this? because meta knights goodness is an all around thing, there's not one overwhelming thing he just does to his opponents, its his application. these kinds of things are always beatable and always counterable, we just haven't reached the level of skill to execute it yet.

as long as something can be overcome with skill its not broken enough to ban it
Actually, what makes Metaknight so good is that very thing. The fact that his advantages are so spread out means that just countering one aspect of his gameplay is not enough. There is no one large thing that he does, it's a sum of small things that allows him to dominate the way that he does. He has no weaknesses to exploit (being light weight is hardly a weakness, especially when he's fast enough to completely avoid most kill moves), and while each of his strengths are minor individually, together they are overwhelming

I think that the mentality "as long as something can be overcome with skill, it's not broken enough to ban it." Akuma could be overcome with skill too. Not all of his matchups were 10-0 shut outs. If you were vastly superior to your opponent, you could win. But isn't that unreasonable? Why should you have to be vastly superior to your opponent in order to win, when tournaments are meant to be a test of skill?

MK is not nearly as extreme of course, but that's the thing. Akuma is extreme. Everyone agreed Akuma was ban worthy from the get go. There was no years of testing for him, he was just that broken. But because of this, we've never actually established a borderline for banning a character. There has never been a clearly defined threshold, so everyone just looks at the most extreme example out there and assumes that's the minimum requirements for a ban?
 

Sonic The Hedgedawg

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Actually, what makes Metaknight so good is that very thing. The fact that his advantages are so spread out means that just countering one aspect of his gameplay is not enough. There is no one large thing that he does, it's a sum of small things that allows him to dominate the way that he does. He has no weaknesses to exploit (being light weight is hardly a weakness, especially when he's fast enough to completely avoid most kill moves), and while each of his strengths are minor individually, together they are overwhelming

I think that the mentality "as long as something can be overcome with skill, it's not broken enough to ban it." Akuma could be overcome with skill too. Not all of his matchups were 10-0 shut outs. If you were vastly superior to your opponent, you could win. But isn't that unreasonable? Why should you have to be vastly superior to your opponent in order to win, when tournaments are meant to be a test of skill?

MK is not nearly as extreme of course, but that's the thing. Akuma is extreme. Everyone agreed Akuma was ban worthy from the get go. There was no years of testing for him, he was just that broken. But because of this, we've never actually established a borderline for banning a character. There has never been a clearly defined threshold, so everyone just looks at the most extreme example out there and assumes that's the minimum requirements for a ban?
QFT.

it's not about being as broken as possible. it's about being broken period.

in pokemon, it's possible to beat out some of the ubers with carefully and specifically trained pokemon. EG, heracross trained to absolute perfection with megahorn has a good shot at KOing some ubers.... but ubers can just decimate 95% of the competition... even heracross can get wiped out by them if luck is not on his side.

so, technically, you CAN lose with the likes of darkrai, mewtwo, giratina, etc. but your foe has to just be that superior to you skill wise.

in the opinion of myself, and most others here, the superior brawler should win... the problem is, against metaknight, you are required to have a LARGE margin of superiority. Being better isn't enough, you have to be a lot better.
 

Justblaze647

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Why should you have to be vastly superior to your opponent in order to win, when tournaments are meant to be a test of skill?
Is it even possible to be "vastly superior" to players like M2K & Dojo? The only possible defense you could attempt to have is to have a better MK than they do... and then it becomes the vicious circle Panda described...
 

Sonic The Hedgedawg

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Is it even possible to be "vastly superior" to players like M2K & Dojo? The only possible defense you could attempt to have is to have a better MK than they do... and then it becomes the vicious circle Panda described...
yes... and then the game devolves to all MK finals. which is wrong. At least melee had Fox, Falco, Sheik and Marth reliably.... hell even peach, falcon and jiggly weren't hopeless in most cases.... which would be bad if falcon, jiggly and peach were the next closest to fox, but they aren't :)

not that diversity is the ultimate goal since there's no way the whole cast can be viable.... but a HANDFUL of characters needs to be playable or there's no point.

without MK several chacrters seem very viable. not only top teirs... hell not even just high teir even some middle teirs like toon link, olimar and Zelda/Sheik should be able to appear and stand a good chance.
 

DanGR

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I'm beginning to think that MK has the advantage over MK.

Help me... :urg:
 

The Real Inferno

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1) Met.
2) Met.
3) Met- more tournament wins than the next 6 characters combined.
4) Met.
5) Have there been a lot of national tournaments? AFAIK Mew2King and DSF's MK's win most of the big ones.
6) Not sure yet.
7) Questionable.
8) Met.
9) Met.

We're not there yet, but we're getting close.

I'm in the "Metaknight should be considered for a ban, but we should some time first and see how things develop." camp.
In case you care at HOBO11, 6 of the top 10 were MK and even Azen was playing him.
 

infomon

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1. Character has no counters or poor matchups
2. Character has no poor stages
3. Character has shown to do reliabily well in local tournaments across the US, taking at least one placement in the top 3 on a consistent basis.
4. Character wins a multitude of local tournaments across the US
5. Character has shown to do reliably well in national tournaments across the US, taking several of the spots in the top 8.
6. Character fits the previous criteria consistently at high levels of play for at least half a year
7. Character prevents a large majority (3/4) of the other characters from being played competitively
8. Character has a even matchup at worst with a large majority (3/4) of the highest ranking characters on the tier list
9. Character has no other characters in the game that share these qualities


All of this criteria must be met.
Some questions:

1. "No counters or poor matchups" -- is this the same as saying "no disadvantageous matchups? Like do soft-counters count?

5. Could we say "most" instead of "several"? Maybe solidify this to either 5 or 6 out of 8.

6. I'll agree that half-a-year seems like the correct time-frame for a game like Brawl, which clearly has less depth/progression than, say, Melee. I think that the half-a-year time frame should not be allowed to begin sooner than half-a-year after Brawl's North American release date, because IMO that's about the amount of time it took for us to really figure the game out.

7. I'm not sure what this means. Are the other characters prevented from playing because of an incredibly bad matchup against the broken character? Or is it because they have counters, whereas the broken one doesn't, so all the mains of 3/4 of the cast have to switch to the broken char just to stay competitive?

8. Is point 8 really necessary, given that points 1 and 9 exist? I don't like the reliance on a "tier list"; it's not clear what we're taking a large majority of.

There is much subtle wisdom to Overswarm's list, but we need to iron out some of these details :) Although, I see why there's good reason to leave some things underspecified. Using words like "multitude" and "consistently" instead of hard numbers gives us a safeguard against anomalies. For example, if some tournament results are unverifiable or there's cause for suspicion, then it's good to give the SBR some leeway to make common sense judgements.

It's good to keep in mind that this "ban criteria" list is a sort of compromise; we're granting the SBR some trust and authority to make decisions that will influence most of the smash community, but in exchange there are guidelines and expectations that we expect them to follow, and can hold them accountable to. That's the way I see it, anyway.
 

PK-ow!

Smash Lord
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question

What criteria do you think is necessary to ban a character (ANY CHARACTER) in brawl?
I see some problems.

1. Character has no counters or poor matchups
2. Character has no poor stages
3. Character has shown to do reliabily well in local tournaments across the US, taking at least one placement in the top 3 on a consistent basis.
4. Character wins a multitude of local tournaments across the US
5. Character has shown to do reliably well in national tournaments across the US, taking several of the spots in the top 8.
6. Character fits the previous criteria consistently at high levels of play for at least half a year

Sure; fine. I don't really have the credentials to comment.

7. Character prevents a large majority (3/4) of the other characters from being played competitively

This one sounds too strict; so what if a character keeps the large majority of characters from being used? What if the large majority of characters. . . just aren't good?
Assessing if this character is causing those characters to be used less - even if this would be a good criterion - would be very difficult and controversial.

8. Character has a even matchup at worst with a large majority (3/4) of the highest ranking characters on the tier list

I think you may have meant something else. you seem to have said that, for some large majority of the cast, the minimum of matchup values for that set is 'even matchup'. This leaves unstated what the character is like w.r.t. the complement of that set; for example, the character could be completely dominated by the remaining 1/4 (or whatever fraction) of the cast. In particular, that 1/4 of the cast could be the top tier.

Now, 1-6 imply that this character is doing really well, so that forces that possibility out.
But the character could still have bad matchups against lower tier characters (who, say, suck against every other high tier character). We could have a rock paper scissors situation, but affected by popularity. I may be outdated, but I thought Donkey Kong, actually, was in this position. Almost. Imagine a Donkey Kong, but who did better against the Snakes and Falcos of the world, yet was still nothing special against our friendly Marios and Links. A crucial midpoint, "inverted" to the tier list.

I think you need an independent argument for why we would want to get rid of a character who dominates an upper echelon of play, but has existing - merely unpopular and problematic-to-master - counters.

9. Character has no other characters in the game that share these qualities

I think what you want to do is you want to connect this criterion to criteria 7 and 8, so that the condition "satifying 7, 8, and 9" is part of a disjunction of conditions in the whole banworthy definition.
That is, the banworthy definition should go like this:

1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, AND [ (7, 8, and 9) OR (7.2, 8.2) OR (7.3, 8.3, 9.3) . . . ]

where, for example, 7.2 and 8.2 might be harsher assessments of the character's beating out of the entirety of the cast, and with more drastic qualities like matchup one-sidedness, as opposed to your mere "majority," and "worst case matchup even" conditions 7 and 8.

Your 7 and 8 only seem to have their broadness vindicated by the stringent condition of 9, wherein it seems that, by the condition (7, 8, and 9), you're asserting by this definition of banworthiness that, any sort of character who, alone, is producing "unlikeable" features in the metagame (specifically, the features covered by [7 and 8]), is one which is justifiably removable from its game.

Presumably the loneliness is getting in that the new meta game would be much richer without the character.

Thoughts?
 

da K.I.D.

Smash Hero
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Messages
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Rochester, NY
for the last time there ARE mk players besides M2K and dojo, dojo, is basically only well known, because his playstyle is 150% agression, there are MKs better than him and they proved it at the last HOBO (sorry dude but its the truth)

Lee, and DSF were both there and both played MK and both placed higher than dojo

theres also Infernomni
Plank
Forte
Azen
KingAce
Overswarm
and Lee and DSF
all of these people WIN TOURNAMENTS
just because M2K is the best, and Dojo is super aggressive does NOT mean that they are the only ones winning with him.


dont talk to me like MK isnt broken because theres only 2 people playing him, that just invalidates the argument that we are trying to ban him because he is too popular (even though thats not a good arguement to begin with)

People are switching to (and winning with) him everyday.

and those people are not tier whores, thats a stupid over generalization. those are people who did exactly what you wanted them to do, get better and learn to beat MK, they were just smart enough to know that the best way to do what you wanted them to do anyway is to play MK. that doesnt make them whores it makes them smart people who play to win
 

Koga

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jun 13, 2007
Messages
352
Actually, what makes Metaknight so good is that very thing. The fact that his advantages are so spread out means that just countering one aspect of his gameplay is not enough. There is no one large thing that he does, it's a sum of small things that allows him to dominate the way that he does. He has no weaknesses to exploit (being light weight is hardly a weakness, especially when he's fast enough to completely avoid most kill moves), and while each of his strengths are minor individually, together they are overwhelming

I think that the mentality "as long as something can be overcome with skill, it's not broken enough to ban it." Akuma could be overcome with skill too. Not all of his matchups were 10-0 shut outs. If you were vastly superior to your opponent, you could win. But isn't that unreasonable? Why should you have to be vastly superior to your opponent in order to win, when tournaments are meant to be a test of skill?

MK is not nearly as extreme of course, but that's the thing. Akuma is extreme. Everyone agreed Akuma was ban worthy from the get go. There was no years of testing for him, he was just that broken. But because of this, we've never actually established a borderline for banning a character. There has never been a clearly defined threshold, so everyone just looks at the most extreme example out there and assumes that's the minimum requirements for a ban?

acctually, akuma couldn't be overcome by skill, only ignorance, once a player learned his air fireball thingie it got rediculous.

being all around good is not ban worthy. He doesn't ruin the competative nature of the game. Sure he takes away variety, but its not like he just takes the game out of the players hands like akumas fireballs did, you still have to play well with him to win

when something can't be overcome by skill that means it takes the game out of the players hands and puts it in the hands of the ability/character. MK does not do that
 

choknater

Smash Obsessed
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NNID
choknater
"I doesn't matter who the best MK is..."

lol yeah forreal

1. Character has no counters or poor matchups
- he has evens. subjective

2. Character has no poor stages
- subjective. some characters can outdo him where stages enhance their movement more than MK. (sheik, zss on norfair)

3. Character has shown to do reliabily well in local tournaments across the US, taking at least one placement in the top 3 on a consistent basis.
- sure, but "popularity" vs. "too good" is a hard issue to look at

4. Character wins a multitude of local tournaments across the US
- not always. not every MK is pro

5. Character has shown to do reliably well in national tournaments across the US, taking several of the spots in the top 8.
- yes. top 8? wow, i'm sure any top tier character should be able to do that.

6. Character fits the previous criteria consistently at high levels of play for at least half a year
- half a year? sounds arbitrary.

7. Character prevents a large majority (3/4) of the other characters from being played competitively
- not all the rest of the characters are popular or have been expanded enough yet for us to know if they can beat MK or not. and people don't give me that "they dont have enough AT's so they don't have potential" bullcrap. the game is about strategy, and strategies can beat MK.

8. Character has a even matchup at worst with a large majority (3/4) of the highest ranking characters on the tier list
- yeah sure, but what if he's also even with chars in the middle of the tier list? yoshi, ic's, dk, whatever else. how do we know if pokemon trainer can actually do well against MK? speculation, but it's certainly possible because NO ONE plays pokemon trainer and no one has fully discovered his potential.

9. Character has no other characters in the game that share these qualities
- mr. game & watch shares many of them

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XLDYOAjii-Q

Watch this match and TELL ME that Toon Link stood even the SLIGHTEST chance of winning. TELL ME. I DARE you.
maybe you should talk to dojo himself about that.

dojo was simply the better player, and they play each other often so dojo reads santi easily.

santi ***** every other mk he plays
 

AlAxe

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Mar 30, 2008
Messages
440
Location
northern CA
My criteria would be:
1. Character has only advantageous matchups except vs. himself. Met.
2. Character has no poor stages. Met.
3. Character consistently does very well at local tournaments throughout the US winning many of them. Met.
4. Character dominates the top spot of national tournaments and fills in several of the other top 8 spots consistently. Met.
5. Character has fit the previous criteria for at least half a year. Not met yet but we're at about 3 months.
6. Character prevents a large majority (3/4) of the cast from placing well and taking high spots in tournaments. Debatable but I think met.
7. No other character shares these qualities. Met.
 
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