The Official "Should/Will Metaknight be banned?" Thread (LISTEN TO THE SBR PODCAST!)

[Koga]

I'll tell you he had better than a slight chance of winning... he just started ****in' up...

amen brother, after that first stock santi's projectile game dropped off and he kept whiffing and missing his follow ups

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I find it hilarious, how everybody accuses Azen of "having used MK in order to win". He's Azen. AS if he couldn't beat his opoonents otherwise. MK is just the easiest way.

 

[da K.I.D.]

Keep in mind that I have no affiliation withOS nor do i know him irl, however i will try to clarify what he is trying to say. because i think i get it

I see some problems.

1. Character has no counters or poor matchups
2. Character has no poor stages
3. Character has shown to do reliabily well in local tournaments across the US, taking at least one placement in the top 3 on a consistent basis.
4. Character wins a multitude of local tournaments across the US
5. Character has shown to do reliably well in national tournaments across the US, taking several of the spots in the top 8.
6. Character fits the previous criteria consistently at high levels of play for at least half a year

Sure; fine. I don't really have the credentials to comment.

7. Character prevents a large majority (3/4) of the other characters from being played competitively

This one sounds too strict; so what if a character keeps the large majority of characters from being used? What if the large majority of characters. . . just aren't good?
Assessing if this character is causing those characters to be used less - even if this would be a good criterion - would be very difficult and controversial.

lets say we take all the characters in top and high tier out of the game except MK. we just go from MK straight to fox, if all the characters are at fox's level and than you go straight to Mk, thats a problem. because in that case the rest of the characters are good, but they just suck compared to MK. good is a relative term. the fact is that the rest of the characters ARE good, its just that MK is SOOO much better than they all pale in comparison. in that situation, taking MK out of the picture, would make every other character viable seeing as with low and middle tier, its all about being as good as possible, as opposed to being as broken as possible, if that makes sence. now, even if you add in top and high tier, the situation is the same, the only reason that the majority of characters arent good, is because they have to fight MK, if you take him out, than the field opens up for many characters, like sonic, mario, luigi, wolf, pit, and i think the mother boys

8. Character has a even matchup at worst with a large majority (3/4) of the highest ranking characters on the tier list

I think you may have meant something else. you seem to have said that, for some large majority of the cast, the minimum of matchup values for that set is 'even matchup'. This leaves unstated what the character is like w.r.t. the complement of that set; for example, the character could be completely dominated by the remaining 1/4 (or whatever fraction) of the cast. In particular, that 1/4 of the cast could be the top tier.

Now, 1-6 imply that this character is doing really well, so that forces that possibility out.
But the character could still have bad matchups against lower tier characters (who, say, suck against every other high tier character). We could have a rock paper scissors situation, but affected by popularity. I may be outdated, but I thought Donkey Kong, actually, was in this position. Almost. Imagine a Donkey Kong, but who did better against the Snakes and Falcos of the world, yet was still nothing special against our friendly Marios and Links. A crucial midpoint, "inverted" to the tier list.

I think you need an independent argument for why we would want to get rid of a character who dominates an upper echelon of play, but has existing - merely unpopular and problematic-to-master - counters.

9. Character has no other characters in the game that share these qualities

I think what you want to do is you want to connect this criterion to criteria 7 and 8, so that the condition "satifying 7, 8, and 9" is part of a disjunction of conditions in the whole banworthy definition.
That is, the banworthy definition should go like this:

1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, AND [ (7, 8, and 9) OR (7.2, 8.2) OR (7.3, 8.3, 9.3) . . . ]

where, for example, 7.2 and 8.2 might be harsher assessments of the character's beating out of the entirety of the cast, and with more drastic qualities like matchup one-sidedness, as opposed to your mere "majority," and "worst case matchup even" conditions 7 and 8.

Your 7 and 8 only seem to have their broadness vindicated by the stringent condition of 9, wherein it seems that, by the condition (7, 8, and 9), you're asserting by this definition of banworthiness that, any sort of character who, alone, is producing "unlikeable" features in the metagame (specifically, the features covered by [7 and 8]), is one which is justifiably removable from its game.

Presumably the loneliness is getting in that the new meta game would be much richer without the character.

Thoughts?

I dont like the idea of having a 7.2 and stuff like that, because it somewhat invalidates the point of having the set criteria if the criteria has criteria to it, it should be made so that those are the base needs for a ban. which i think OS does well. other than that, your points about 7 and 8 being connected to nine. are completely correct because if you didnt have nine you would have melee. in melee, shiek dominated over more than 3/4 of the cast. but she didnt get banned because falco's SHL dominated over the exact same people that shieks down throw did, and CFs down throw did the same thing, and marth f-did the same thing, and fox's shine combos did all of that as well. all 5 dominated over more than 3/4 of the cast, and went pretty well against each other, thus nobody needed to be banned. in brawl, Mk is the only one that dominates to this degree, and therefore he is worth a ban, so yes, like i said b4 numbe 9 is the real kicker of the list.

Some questions:

1. "No counters or poor matchups" -- is this the same as saying "no disadvantageous matchups? Like do soft-counters count?

soft counters indicate a disadvantageous match, so yes the two are one and the same. and it fits because MK has no soft counters. that is why when its so important when we talk about MK's worst matchup being a ditto.

5. Could we say "most" instead of "several"? Maybe solidify this to either 5 or 6 out of 8.

most indicates more than half, so i agree with this, especially since 5/8 was how many played MK at HOBO

6. I'll agree that half-a-year seems like the correct time-frame for a game like Brawl, which clearly has less depth/progression than, say, Melee. I think that the half-a-year time frame should not be allowed to begin sooner than half-a-year after Brawl's North American release date, because IMO that's about the amount of time it took for us to really figure the game out.

you are agreeing and disagreeing at the same time. 6 months is the right time, but not because we cant start counting off the six months yet? thats conflicting. if any thing i will give you this, MK has only been COMPLETELY dominating for 3 months, hes been beating everybody except snake since release, but he just started beating snake about 3 months ago, so I will give it until he dominates EVERYONE for 6 months...

7. I'm not sure what this means.
a. Are the other characters prevented from playing because of an incredibly bad matchup against the broken character?
b. Or is it because they have counters, whereas the broken one doesn't, so all the mains of 3/4 of the cast have to switch to the broken char just to stay competitive?

a. is the correct answer, although b is good too, its mainly a.

8. Is point 8 really necessary, given that points 1 and 9 exist? I don't like the reliance on a "tier list"; it's not clear what we're taking a large majority of.


8 is necessary because top tier are going to be used most in tournaments, and if even none of the best characters can go even with that one character, than theres a problem. its basically saying that the better characters impact the decision to enforce a ban more than the bad characters, becuase they will be more prevalent in tourneys

There is much subtle wisdom to Overswarm's list, but we need to iron out some of these details Although, I see why there's good reason to leave some things underspecified. Using words like "multitude" and "consistently" instead of hard numbers gives us a safeguard against anomalies. For example, if some tournament results are unverifiable or there's cause for suspicion, then it's good to give the SBR some leeway to make common sense judgements.

It's good to keep in mind that this "ban criteria" list is a sort of compromise; we're granting the SBR some trust and authority to make decisions that will influence most of the smash community, but in exchange there are guidelines and expectations that we expect them to follow, and can hold them accountable to. That's the way I see it, anyway.

sorry that i have to use the "replys are in 'my favorite color' format" but theres alot i wanted to say and i didnt want to forget. but you are right on the SBR thing, its just like any democracy, the people give their rights to the government on the agreement that the government will do whats best for the majority of the people (seeing as you cant please everyone). but thats is what we have to do and if the "government" doesnt do whats best the people can (and SHOULD) revolt

 

[da K.I.D.]

I find it hilarious, how everybody accuses Azen of "having used MK in order to win". He's Azen. AS if he couldn't beat his opoonents otherwise. MK is just the easiest way.

you can ask azen himself, Lee played MK in a way that Azen was forced to play MK to have a shot at winning, and he played Luc the first two games and lost, and than he switched to MK and beat him 3 times straight, lee even says that he wouldnt have even had a chance had he (lee) not been playing MK to begin with

 

[Luigi player]

Wasn't that Santi vs Dojo set the one where Santi was sandbagging and they split the money?

 

[Yuna]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XLDYOAjii-Q

Watch this match and TELL ME that Toon Link stood even the SLIGHTEST chance of winning. TELL ME. I DARE you.

What part of Santi sanbagged like hell because he and Dojo had already agreed to split the money for 1st and 2nd and that Dojo and Santi have played each other a lot (thus, Dojo is accustomed to Santi's style) was too Canadian French pour toi?!

Dojo himself has come into this thread to clear the Dojo vs. Santi BS out. No, stop waving that set in our faces. For one thing, it's just one set. For another, Santi already admitted to sandbagging .

Seriously, this thread is going in circles and nothing new has been said for the past, oh, 40 pages or so. A few things have slipped through, but it's mostly people dragging up the same stuff over and over again... stuff that Azen and Dojo themselves eventually refuted.

Do you hear that? Azen and Dojo, two of the people you guys have been whining about actually came into this thread and explained their playing to us, basically saying that you guys were all wrong, I was right and the rest of it is up to individual skill and stuff.

Stop using Azen vs. Lee and Santi vs. Dojo. The two sets have already been discredited as proof for that MK is "too good".

I skipped every single new post since my latest post in this thread because I'm currently swamped with university. If you have something in dire need of a rebuttal, PM me a link to the post and I will reply to it (in this thread), but I don't feel like skimming through the entire thread just to find random posts I feel like replying to.

I wasn't even going to reply to any posts, but then I saw Meta-Kirby's post and, well:
Stop using the Azen vs. Lee set and the Santi vs. Dojo set. Azen and Dojothemselves basically waltzed into this thread and said stuff that amounts to: No, don't go there!

 

[ArcPoint]

Thank you for that post, Yuna, glad to have you back xD

And what do you think of Overswarm's ban criteria?

 

[Yuna]

you can ask azen himself, Lee played MK in a way that Azen was forced to play MK to have a shot at winning, and he played Luc the first two games and lost, and than he switched to MK and beat him 3 times straight, lee even says that he wouldnt have even had a chance had he (lee) not been playing MK to begin with

We did ask Azen himself. No wait, we didn't ask, Azen just randomly came into this thread and flat out told us himself.

Azen specifically said that Lee was the only Meta Knight against whom he did better as Meta Knight than as Lucario. You hear me? Not Dojo, not Mew2King, both of those, he did better against as Lucario! He went Peach, Ike and a bunch of other characters at HOBO11. He played a whole bunch of people.

Lee was the only Meta Knight against whom he did better as Meta Knight than Lucario. Do I have to repeat myself for this to sink in?!

And that's not to mention that he didn't even lose by that much as Lucario! You people are whining about it as if he lost by huge margins. "Oh, Azen was forced to go Meta Knight!" O RLY? He lost the 1st match with both players with one stock. He lost the 2nd with Lee with 1 stock and high percentages.

Then he beat Lee and went on to play Mew2King... and he didn't fare better as Meta Knight against Mew2King than as Lucario (or that's inferred, anyway. Either he just did play Meta Knight against Mew2King or he did and he did worse than as Lucario, but I think he did go MK and did worse)!

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Yuna, let's assume the metagame won't change until Jan '09 aka MK still dominates tourneys and has the best match-up's by a large margin. Would you ban him or not?

 

[Xyro77]

HOBO11=october 4th 2008 houston,tx

1: M2K (meta)
2: Azen (lucario/meta)
3: Lee (meta)
4: DMG (wario
5: DSF (snake/meta)
5: Roy_R (marth)
7: Edrees (peach)
7: Hylian (GW/meta?)
9: Chuck (meta/pkmn)
9: Ky (pit)
9: Dojo (meta)
9: Magik (meta/pkmn)
13: Mr. 3000 (sonic/ddd)
13: Infinity (meta)
13: Ultamate Razor (snake)
13: Axe (wolf)
17: Fliphop (diddy)
17: Domo (meta)
17: UTD Zack (GW)
17: Dr. Mario Kart (meta)
17: Light
17: Santi (Tlink)
17: Xyro(SAMUS!!!)
17: Thien (diddy)
25: Nynja (diddy)
25: Lee Harris (rob/meta)
25: Zori (olimar)
25: Ice (snake)
25: Kown (pit)
25: Affinity (meta)
25: Bad News Bear (pika/wolf)
25: Bwett (yoshi)
33: T-Rex (snake)
33: ArturitoBurrito (ike)
33: Kira (marth/snake
33: Bluejay (mario)
33: Kosmos (peach/ZS)
33: Vash (pit)
33: Kalo (marth/wolf)
33: Sethlon (falco)
33: Salocin (meta/fox)
33: Furbs (yoshi)
33: Carnage (meta)
33: Gar (falco/marth)
33: C.Y. (falco)
33: Dingding (link)
33: Broli (fox/marth)
33: Axxo (falco/meta)
49: Kado (falco)
49: Mr.Sir.Dr.Daddy
49: Chaddly
49: Zeton (fox)
49: Trela
49: Gea
49: Heytallman (lucas)
49: Sam388
49: Swoll (ganon)
49: Toast
49: Tuxedo Maniac (wario)
60-112=pool players who didnt make it out

 

[~ Gheb ~]

We know the hobo11 results by now -_-

 

[Julz]

@yuna:
They've been currently discussing this:

question

What criteria do you think is necessary to ban a character (ANY CHARACTER) in brawl?


1. Character has no counters or poor matchups
2. Character has no poor stages
3. Character has shown to do reliabily well in local tournaments across the US, taking at least one placement in the top 3 on a consistent basis.
4. Character wins a multitude of local tournaments across the US
5. Character has shown to do reliably well in national tournaments across the US, taking several of the spots in the top 8.
6. Character fits the previous criteria consistently at high levels of play for at least half a year
7. Character prevents a large majority (3/4) of the other characters from being played competitively
8. Character has a even matchup at worst with a large majority (3/4) of the highest ranking characters on the tier list
9. Character has no other characters in the game that share these qualities


All of this criteria must be met.



This is mine

 

[Yuna]

Yuna, let's assume the metagame won't change until Jan '09 aka MK still dominates tourneys and has the best match-up's by a large margin. Would you ban him or not?

I've already said this many times, I will not say it again, at least not to someone who was around when I said it the last time:
If Meta Knight stays the same 'til January, then no. Several characters still stand a reasonable chance of beating him. 45:55 and 5-4 are highly reasonable.

No, he should not be banned just because he's popular and people are flocking to him for the easiest path to victory! That's just, you know, popularity!

 

[ArcPoint]

I think we've seen those (HOBO 11) results already... various times X_X

 

[Xyro77]

well i thought i just remind people what happened at my hobo

 

[Yuna]

@yuna:
They've been currently discussing this:

well i thought i just remind people what happened at my hobo

Azen himself came in here and explained Hobo11. Needless to say, the Hobo11 results mean nothing. At least we can just remove "Meta Knight" from under Azens name as he only did better as Meta Knight in one single set and he played, what 7 different characters and did the best as Lucario.

 

[samizdat]

What part of Santi sanbagged like hell because he and Dojo had already agreed to split the money for 1st and 2nd and that Dojo and Santi have played each other a lot (thus, Dojo is accustomed to Santi's style) was too Canadian French pour toi?!

Dojo himself has come into this thread to clear the Dojo vs. Santi BS out. No, stop waving that set in our faces. For one thing, it's just one set. For another, Santi already admitted to sandbagging .

Umm, you must have forgotten to actually look at the video. He didn't link the set that Santi sandbagged.

Given, I don't think posting a random match between Santi and Dojo helps serve much of any point.

Edit: Plus it's from June 26th.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Yuna, which characters are the ones who stand a "reasonable" chance against MK?

 

[Justblaze647]

Yuna... why are always so angry?

 

[Yuna]

Umm, you must have forgotten to actually look at the video. He didn't link the set that Santi sandbagged.

Given, I don't think posting a random match between Santi and Dojo helps serve much of any point.

So it was a random match that could have been a friendly?

Also, I just watched that match, da K.I.D. still doesn't know what he's talking about. What I saw was a BS first 30 seconds where Santi just random sucked, then he came back and played well and it was even 'til he died and then he immediately KO:ed Dojo (0%-0%, 2 stocks). Then, Santi started radomly sucking. No, seriously, it's like da K.I.D. just fast forwarded to the end, saw "2-stocking!" and went "Proof of MK's excellence!".

Anyone who just watches the video can see that Santi screwed up tons. For one thing, he just randomly got gimped twice not because MK is just "too good" but because he cocked it up. But he also camped very badly. He just made many, many mistakes.

So all that video proves is that Toon Links who play very badly can get 2-stocked by Meta Knights. Congratulations, da K.I.D., you just proved common sense.

Yuna, which characters are the ones who stand a "reasonable" chance against MK?

Snake, Diddy, Yoshi, Marth are popularly counted as standing reasonable chance. Yoshi is very disputed, Snake, Marth and Diddy, not so much. There are a few more.

Yuna... why are always so angry?

That's not anger, that's annoyance. Because there are so many people who think they can repeat the same BS when it's already been refuted 29 times over. Or they think what they have to say has never been said before so they belt on about it even if it's already been said 29 times before (and subsequently refuted 29 times over).

 

[~ Gheb ~]

So if you have a 40:60 disadvantage you're still having reasonable chances?

 

[Yuna]

So if you have a 40:60 disadvantage you're still having reasonable chances?

60:40 is arguably reasonable. By "normal" standards (standards outside of SWF), yes. By SWF standards, probably not. But Meta still has one 55:45 and a few 50:40s. So, yeah, reasonable chances.

 

[VulgarHandGestures]

i still want to know why mk is "field clearing" for all the others, but marth won't.

 

[da K.I.D.]

you do realise that i said the same thing you just described yuna...

when he played lee, azen was forced to use MK. what about that is wrong?

and that set is important because it shows that there is a way to play MK so that no other character can win against him (keep in mind lee also said that Azen was better than him and that he wouldnt have beat his luc with anyone besides MK

there is a way to play so that luc cant beat him
there is a way to play so that snake cant beat him
D3
Marth,
ROB, all of them can be put into an situation against MK that they cant beat

ive also stated a multitude of characters that would become more viable without MK

Wolf
Sonic
Pit
Mario
Luigi
and possibly the mother boys

 

[ArcPoint]

Lol Gheb, the majority of Wolf's matchups are either 60:40 or worse, I'd say we still stand a chance xD

 

[da K.I.D.]

So it was a random match that could have been a friendly?

Also, I just watched that match, da K.I.D. still doesn't know what he's talking about. What I saw was a BS first 30 seconds where Santi just random sucked, then he came back and played well and it was even 'til he died and then he immediately KO:ed Dojo (0%-0%, 2 stocks). Then, Santi started radomly sucking. No, seriously, it's like da K.I.D. just fast forwarded to the end, saw "2-stocking!" and went "Proof of MK's excellence!".

i already know that, santi has admitted to sandbagging multiple time, i am fully aware of that. and why dont you pay more attention b4 you shoot off at the mouth, i was not the one who posted or spoke about that video to begin with.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

ive also stated a multitude of characters that would become more viable without MK

Wolf
Sonic
Pit
Mario
Luigi
and possibly the mother boys

This is absurd.

Wolf loses to every top tier character except Snake.
Pit has more than enough troubles with Marth, GaW and Falco.
Mario gets anihilated by Dedede, Gaymanwatch and does terrible vs Falco and Marth
Luigi..fails vs Dedede, Marth, Game and Watch
and lol Sonic
Mother boys boys? No chance vs Marth, Falco, GaW amd god knows who else

The charactes, who benefit most from MKs ban will be the other top tiers (I consider Marth top tier btw), followed by Pikachu, Wario and maybe Lucario

 

[Yuna]

you do realise that i said the same thing you just described yuna...

when he played lee, azen was forced to use MK. what about that is wrong?

and that set is important because it shows that there is a way to play MK so that no other character can win against him (keep in mind lee also said that Azen was better than him and that he wouldnt have beat his luc with anyone besides MK

I'm sorry, what part of Azen said that Lee's MK was the only MK against whom his (Azen's) MK fared better than his Lucario was too Danish for dig?!

At a tournament so swamped with MKs, Lee was the only one! And that's not to mention that Azen went to eventually fight Mew2King. So it's not proof of that Azen was forced to go MK against MK, it's that Azen's MK did better against Lee's MK when Azen's MK did worse than his Lucario against every other MK at the place, including Mew2King (or so we presume)!

So stop bringing him up. Azen at Hobo11 is as much proof of how you have to go MK against MK as that Lucario is some kind of MK counter or something.

 

[Justblaze647]

The charactes, who benefit most from MKs ban will be the other top tiers (I consider Marth top tier btw), followed by Pikachu, Wario and maybe Lucario

I agree...

10 char

 

[Justblaze647]

So stop bringing him up. Azen at Hobo11 is as much proof of how you have to go MK against MK as that Lucario is some kind of MK counter or something.

LMAO yeah... it's pretty hard to argue with that...
****... sorry for the double post...

 

[Yuna]

i already know that, santi has admitted to sandbagging multiple time, i am fully aware of that. and why dont you pay more attention b4 you shoot off at the mouth, i was not the one who posted or spoke about that video to begin with.

I humbly apologizing for namedropping the wrong person. It was not my intention to accuse you of something you did not do. I'm being sincere here and not sarcastic.

I simply got you two confused in my anger over the fact than neither you had bothered to read what had been hammered into the skulls of the people who came before them flaunting Santi vs. Dojo and Azen at Hobo11 as "proof".

ive also stated a multitude of characters that would become more viable without MK

Wolf
Sonic
Pit
Mario
Luigi
and possibly the mother boys

Proof for this besides your delusional mind? Because the combined best players of the world and Character Specific Boards vehemently disagree against your ludicrous claims.

 

[Fatmanonice]

Yuna... why are always so angry?

Because 99.99999% percent of the human population still doesn't accept him as God.

Anyways, a question I've asked several times but have never really recieved a true answer to: what would need to happen to lower Metaknight from his current God-like status? Would a certain universal technique help level the playing field a little or at least give some characters enough of a boost to counter him? Are some of the banned stages actually Metaknight counters but not enough testing has been done on them? Metaknight > the rest of the cast, has clearly been established but is banning him the only way to keep him from dominating tournaments? Things look grim though since he doesn't have any true character counters and only one stage counter...

 

[Dark Sonic]

At a tournament so swamped with MKs, Lee was the only one! And that's not to mention that Azen went to eventually fight Mew2King. So it's not proof of that Azen was forced to go MK against MK, it's that Azen's MK did better against Lee's MK when Azen's MK did worse than his Lucario against every other MK at the place, including Mew2King (or so we presume)!

But doesn't this suggest that Lee's style of playing metaknight was enough to topple the best Lucario, who is regarded as a better player overall? Let's say that someone of a higher calibur (M2K) was to perfect this style that Azen had so much trouble with, would that not shut down Lucario and force Azen to switch to Metaknight?

Azen said himself that he did better against Lee's MK by using MK instead of Lucario. That means that if a MK plays a certain style then Lucario is not able to handle it, and you'd be much better off going as Metaknight.

Food for thought.

Also, I don't know about the others, but I do know that Sonic would have much better chances if MK wasn't there. I'm not saying he wouldn't still be low tier (since he would), but his worst matchup would be gone, and his other unwinnable matchups are both hard countered by DDD. He'd still have some trouble with G&W though...

 

[Yuna]

Anyways, a question I've asked several times but have never really recieved a true answer to: what would need to happen to lower Metaknight from his current God-like status? Would a certain universal technique help level the playing field a little or at least give some characters enough of a boost to counter him? Are some of the banned stages actually Metaknight counters but not enough testing has been done on them? Metaknight > the rest of the cast, has clearly been established but is banning him the only way to keep him from dominating tournaments? Things look grim though since he doesn't have any true character counters and only one stage counter...

Any number of things? We're engaging in random speculation after all. A new AT that doesn't work for Meta or just not as well for Meta as others. We could discover that something we thought we knew wasn't true, like how Final Destination is an anti-MK stage.

Or the metagame could just evolve and Marth could randomly find a way to 6-4 Meta Knight or something.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Dark Sonic, you don't know if Azenm would've beaten Lees MK with somebody else than MK. As I said before: MK was just the easierst way for Azan. He did want to win after all

 

[Yuna]

But doesn't this suggest that Lee's style of playing metaknight was enough to topple the best Lucario, who is regarded as a better player overall? Let's say that someone of a higher calibur (M2K) was to perfect this style that Azen had so much trouble with, would that not shut down Lucario and force Azen to switch to Metaknight?

Yes, so now we're arguing individual player skill. It's not the character itself alone, it's Lee. Lee did it. Or maybe Azen's the one to "blame". Maybe he's just bad against Lee's Meta Knight.

Because he went on to play M2K and not do better against his Meta than as Lucario (inferred). Are you saying M2K's MK is inferior to Dojo's? Or that M2K's style against Lucario is worse than Dojo's? Or any number of things that have nothing to do with the theory that MK > all?

Azen said himself that he did better against Lee's MK by using MK instead of Lucario. That means that if a MK plays a certain style then Lucario is not able to handle it, and you'd be much better off going as Metaknight.

Yeah, but prove it. And if Dojo has some magical anti-MK strategy, have everyone analyze his game and then everyone can start owning Azen.

 

[SwastikaPyle]

I think Yuna is just emotionally invested in his argument by now.

 

[Dark Sonic]

Dark Sonic, you don't know if Azenm would've beaten Lees MK with somebody else than MK. As I said before: MK was just the easierst way for Azan. He did want to win after all

Well, he lost twice with Lucario (even though they were close matches), and ***** him with MK. What I'm saying is that it's completely possible that there's simply a certain style of MK that Lucario is really bad against, and that it was enough to overcome the skill gap in that matchup (not that Lee is bad by any means, but you saw what happened when Azen played him with MK).

 

[da K.I.D.]

I humbly apologizing for namedropping the wrong person. It was not my intention to accuse you of something you did not do. I'm being sincere here and not sarcastic.

I simply got you two confused in my anger over the fact than neither you had bothered to read what had been hammered into the skulls of the people who came before them flaunting Santi vs. Dojo and Azen at Hobo11 as "proof".


Proof for this besides your delusional mind? Because the combined best players of the world and Character Specific Boards vehemently disagree against your ludicrous claims.

all that is completely fine, about the specific characters thing, Ive heard form many people that the mario brothers and pit would be much much more playable with out MK, and i can personally attest to the validity of sonic, he actually quite good against a few of the top tiers without MK. he goes 50-50 with D3, ROB, Lucario, Falco, and marth, so if its not too much trouble can you show me some threads that show that what I said about the other characters is wrong?

I'm sorry, what part of Azen said that Lee's MK was the only MK against whom his (Azen's) MK fared better than his Lucario was too Danish for dig?!

the fact still remains that there was an Mk that forced azen to switch off of lucario

At a tournament so swamped with MKs, Lee was the only one! And that's not to mention that Azen went to eventually fight Mew2King. So it's not proof of that Azen was forced to go MK against MK, it's that Azen's MK did better against Lee's MK when Azen's MK did worse than his Lucario against every other MK at the place, including Mew2King (or so we presume)!

So stop bringing him up. Azen at Hobo11 is as much proof of how you have to go MK against MK as that Lucario is some kind of MK counter or something.

underlined for truth, but people have been saying that for a long time now

 

[MarKO X]

If anything, the Azen situation at Hobo proves one thing...

You CAN defeat MK. Without MK. The only reason he switched against Lee was a personal matchup problem. Yes, they do exist and happen every once in a while.

So Azen has convinced me. You CAN beat MK. It's just that everyone is being lazy about it.