The Official "Should/Will Metaknight be banned?" Thread (LISTEN TO THE SBR PODCAST!)

[Dark Sonic]

I sense dark times ahead...

Dark Sonic.

lol.

Heck, I still think Snake has a slight edge on MK (55:45)

The competitive community disagrees. MK is actually considered a Snake counter (soft counter, but counter nontheless)

Still, Yuna's point is valid, Marth has the match-ups to be top tier with his only soft counter gone.

Marth has a number of Even matchups along with a number of slight disadvantages (well, you could call 45:55 even, but I don't personally) A simple stage disadvantage for Marth (which he has plenty of) could turn this matchup around.

Speaking of stages I thought that the SBR hinted that one of them found out that one of the stages was a counter pick to Metaknight?

Obviously they changed their mind, considering Overswarm is in the SBR and stated that MK has no bad stages.

We do have options other than him; Yoshi, Kirby, Game & Watch, and Diddy Kong all have neutral match-ups on him.

No one wants to take them.

Yoshi boards have admitted to it being a slight disadvantage for Yoshi.

Kirby is actually bad against MK

Game & Watch has not been proven even (though it's possible he has a 45:55, but MK would still be the better option here)

Diddy Kong is turning out to be a slight disadvantage as well (actually, he gets ***** by counterpicks)

But again, didn't the SBR hint that a stage was a counter pick to MK?

They changed their minds after further investigation.

 

[Vulcan55]

But again, didn't the SBR hint that a stage was a counter pick to MK?

Yeah, Pipes I thought.
But apparently they took it back?

 

[Tenki]

^I read a thread asking MK's what their best/worst stages were.
People said Pipes, but for the reason that 'everyone sucks there'.

Strangely enough, the next worst level was...
Final Destination

WTF?

The night is always darkest before the dawn......


lolz
=)


I sense dark times ahead...

Spotdodging MK's Final Smash doesn't work, does it?

 

[Mmac]

Yoshi boards have admitted to it being a slight disadvantage for Yoshi.

Uhhh...... No I didn't.... Infact I'm contesting 55:45 at the moment...

 

[Santi]

Spotdodging MK's Final Smash doesn't work, does it?

I use my uptaunt against MK

its brings balance to the matchup.

 

[bigman40]

Yeah, Pipes I thought.
But apparently they took it back?

Probably that cause Yoshi could CG MK right up to the blast zones. CG = easy death on Pipes.

 

[Kookie]

I use my uptaunt against MK

its brings balance to the matchup.

Now that's what I call a legitimate strategy..

 

[Dark Sonic]

Uhhh...... No I didn't.... Infact I'm contesting 55:45 at the moment...

Didn't bigman40 just say a few pages ago that he thought is was 60:40? I thought that was the general consensus. My bad.

Good luck proving anything past 55:45. We don't have any high level Yoshi's (I mean like M2K/Dojo/Overswarm/ect level), so really it's arguing a theoretical matchup, which can look different in practice (Marth vs Snake is harder in practice than on paper for example, because the Snake player can afford to make more mistakes throughout the match)

 

[salaboB]

I think it's funny how you guys seemed to forget about trying to counter my points when that Brinboy guys starting going off. Now that you've "proven him wrong" and "beaten him", I bet you think you've won some sort of mini-victory for you side of the argument or something?

Tell you what: Give us a list of your reasons why you feel it's premature to ban MK, and we'll go ahead and explain our reasons why we feel that you're wrong too.

Don't just say "You've been ignoring our points", list the points in a clean post that we can easily identify if you want them to be addressed.

 

[bigman40]

I said a very slight advantage (I don't normally count 55:45 as even). Sorry for any misleads.

 

[Dark Sonic]

^^Oh. Okay. Well, I don't normally count 55:45 as even either (since technically you'd do better with a 50:50 if your skill level/matchup experience/opponent's matchup experience/ect) is identical with both characters.

Anyway, the point still stands. The best character to fight MK with is MK.

 

[DanGR]

I use my uptaunt against MK

its brings balance to the matchup.

I never thought something so simple could have so much depth to it. (whether or not you meant it)

 

[Mmac]

It's generally even anyways.... so Yeah....

I still do not believe that MetaKnight is MetaKnights hardest matchup. I just don't think it works that way.

 

[salaboB]

It's generally even anyways.... so Yeah....

Until a high level Yoshi can go even with a high level MK, it's theory.

We've seen how well theories hold up once you test them at the top levels of play.

 

[Kookie]

You know, this entire situation is pretty ironic for me.

Before Brawl released, I was asked if I was interested in maining MK, and I refused because I thought he looked like an uber wuss in the gameplay I saw. lol

But seriously, you know that something has gotta be messed up when the only way to beat someone playing as a certain character is to use that same character against him.

 

[Mmac]

Until a high level Yoshi can go even with a high level MK, it's theory.

We've seen how well theories hold up once you test them at the top levels of play.

Doesn't help that Yoshi's are as scare as they come, and I am in such an isolated location.

*Sigh*

 

[bigman40]

I think it's been tested already.

Pride can beat everyone's MK around him except M2k's. Also, LilB can beat all MKs except Forte. Those two are top level players, and I'd say that that is pretty good.

 

[Vulcan55]

You know, this entire situation is pretty ironic for me.

Before Brawl released, I was asked if I was interested in maining MK, and I refused because I thought he looked like an uber wuss in the gameplay I saw. lol

But seriously, you know that something has gotta be messed up when the only way to beat someone playing as a certain character is to use that same character against him.

We're not to that point at all.
Though if it ever comes to that, then we should ban him.

 

[Dark Sonic]

I still do not believe that MetaKnight is MetaKnights hardest matchup. I just don't think it works that way.

50:50>45:55 is it not? So far Metaknight's only 50:50 is a ditto.
Yoshi might be a 50:50, but we need to wait and see (as it may actually just be the MK player's inexperience fighting a good Yoshi. The same thing happened with Snake if you recall)

I really want it to be a 50:50, but I don't know enough about the matchup to judge that myself.

 

[da K.I.D.]

well i will admit that we are NOT at the point where the only way to beat an Mk is with MK, but i WILL say that we are at a point where the best CHANCE you have at beating an MK IS by playing MK,

 

[da K.I.D.]

if i dont make sence, i will elaborate...

 

[choknater]

LMAO i'm pretty sure MK is 55:45 against MK because he has no bad matchups...

 

[Mmac]

50:50>45:55 is it not? So far Metaknight's only 50:50 is a ditto.
Yoshi might be a 50:50, but we need to wait and see (as it may actually just be the MK player's inexperience fighting a good Yoshi. The same thing happened with Snake if you recall)

I really want it to be a 50:50, but I don't know enough about the matchup to judge that myself.

No, that's not what I really mean at all. I mean It's not like another 50:50 Matchup. If you aren't as good as the person you are dittoing, then the chances of winning drop significantly. Because you are using the same character, you have to completely rely on Mindgames and tactics more than usual to hold your ground against the better.

 

[salaboB]

No, that's not what I really mean at all. I mean It's not like another 50:50 Matchup. If you aren't as good as the person you are dittoing, then the chances of winning drop significantly. Because you are using the same character, you have to completely rely on Mindgames and tactics more than usual to hold your ground against the better.

Wouldn't this apply to Yoshi vs. MK also? Yoshi needs a huge amount of technical skill to bring him into that 50:50 so if you're even slightly below what you need to be flawless you're going to be at more of a disadvantage than most 50:50 fights.

 

[Espy Rose]

LMAO i'm pretty sure MK is 55:45 against MK because he has no bad matchups...

or 51:49, based on each players' skill.

lulzy, ain't it?

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

No, that's not what I really mean at all. I mean It's not like another 50:50 Matchup. If you aren't as good as the person you are dittoing, then the chances of winning drop significantly. Because you are using the same character, you have to completely rely on Mindgames and tactics more than usual to hold your ground against the better.

That could be said for any match up. Dittos are very odd though like Ike dittos for example approaching = loss thats just how it works. Somehow they are the still most epic match up of all. hell yah!

edit: no one punishes Ikes recovery better than Ike too. He can Fsmash him self out of it.

 

[Dark Sonic]

No, that's not what I really mean at all. I mean It's not like another 50:50 Matchup. If you aren't as good as the person you are dittoing, then the chances of winning drop significantly. Because you are using the same character, you have to completely rely on Mindgames and tactics more than usual to hold your ground against the better.

What I mean is that given you are equally skilled with both characters, and your opponent is equally experienced against both characters, then you are better of going with MK. If you're not as skilled with MK as you are with your other character (even if it's 45:55 and not 50:50), then yes you'd be better off going with your main. But this only applies to people that second MK and are not equally skilled with both characters.

Of course this obviously isn't the case for some of the more obxcure characters (Yoshi), since matchup inexperience will make it a lot easier for you.

But that's where it gets iffy to me. Is it possible that MK players just aren't used to fighting good Yoshi's. Could that neutral matchup be just because of matchup inexperience?

@Choknater-lols, but then MK would have a bad matchup. The second MK is obviously disadvantaged against the first MK.

 

[Grunt]

I skipped like 15 pages since i didn't want to read them, but i sort of had an epiphany.
I think I know what Overswarm is trying to do.
He sees the current metagame with MK dominating and sees that with time and practice, it will only become worse. if we wait for the inevitable, it will be a very dull game to play along the way, and doesn't want to see the community fry only one year into the game. while there are downsides to banning a character so early on in the Metagame, but potentially has far more reward than waiting.

Am i right OS?

 

[bigman40]

I think it's been tested already.

Pride can beat everyone's MK around him except M2k's. Also, LilB can beat all MKs except Forte. Those two are top level players, and I'd say that that is pretty good.

Does my post about the two best yoshi's doesn't have any say? I would say that to most other players that inexperience would be the case, but that part ends quickly. Even to some people that are experienced in the matchup, they have a tough time fighting good Yoshis.

 

[salaboB]

I skipped like 15 pages since i didn't want to read them, but i sort of had an epiphany.
I think I know what Overswarm is trying to do.
He sees the current metagame with MK dominating and sees that with time and practice, it will only become worse. if we wait for the inevitable, it will be a very dull game to play along the way, and doesn't want to see the community fry only one year into the game. while there are downsides to banning a character so early on in the Metagame, but potentially has far more reward than waiting.

I don't know about OS, but that's what I've been saying this whole time...

Does my post about the two best yoshi's doesn't have any say? I would say that to most other players that inexperience would be the case, but that part ends quickly. Even to some people that are experienced in the matchup, they have a tough time fighting good Yoshis.

I saw it, just didn't have anything to disagree with and a QFT seems unnecessarily spammy, even for this thread. It doesn't significantly change anything about the ban discussion though, as Yoshi isn't a high tier character so MK picking up a neutral that can be so easily counterpicked (And all the discussions have acknowledged he has a few rare neutrals, anyway) doesn't really hurt his dominance.

Personally, I really like Yoshi and I hope he continues to develop into a threat. I'm just hesitant to expect too much since people like to talk about how great the new ATs they are but then there ends up being little impact in practice.

 

[ColinJF]

I skipped like 15 pages since i didn't want to read them, but i sort of had an epiphany.
I think I know what Overswarm is trying to do.
He sees the current metagame with MK dominating and sees that with time and practice, it will only become worse. if we wait for the inevitable, it will be a very dull game to play along the way, and doesn't want to see the community fry only one year into the game. while there are downsides to banning a character so early on in the Metagame, but potentially has far more reward than waiting.

Am i right OS?

It's much simpler than that. He lost to a couple of Meta Knights in tournament and he'd rather it not happen again.

Overswarm's arbitrary banning criteria don't even apply to Meta Knight. I am not buying that 3/4 of the cast has Meta Knight as their sole worst match up. Characters who have other bad match ups are not going to be much more viable than they were before with Meta Knight banned, it's just one bad match up among many.

 

[Mmac]

What I mean is that given you are equally skilled with both characters, and your opponent is equally experienced against both characters, then you are better of going with MK. If you're not as skilled with MK as you are with your other character (even if it's 45:55 and not 50:50), then yes you'd be better off going with your main. But this only applies to people that second MK and are not equally skilled with both characters.

Of course this obviously isn't the case for some of the more obxcure characters (Yoshi), since matchup inexperience will make it a lot easier for you.

But that's where it gets iffy to me. Is it possible that MK players just aren't used to fighting good Yoshi's. Could that neutral matchup be just because of matchup inexperience?

I dunno, I just feel that character specific traits and strategies are more diverse than a simple ditto. Your opponent will have the same strengths and tactics, and I just don't think it will be as easy as it seems. Just my opinion.

And I am not basing the matchup by inexperience from the other player

 

[salaboB]

It's much simpler than that. He lost to a couple of Meta Knights in tournament and he'd rather it not happen again.

Unless he's been lying, OS has been playing as MK and winning easy money that way. I don't believe you are correct.

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

Actually if the MK ditto are to people who are exactly of = skill player 1 would have the advantage because his moves would have more priority since he is port 1.

the best change of beating MK is to use MK and be Port 1!

 

[Dark Sonic]

Does my post about the two best yoshi's doesn't have any say? I would say that to most other players that inexperience would be the case, but that part ends quickly. Even to some people that are experienced in the matchup, they have a tough time fighting good Yoshis.

How often do MK players fight against good Yoshi players.

How long did it take for MK to topple Snake.

All I'm saying is that it's possible that MK players simply don't know the MK vs Yoshi matchup inside out yet. They were getting beat by Snakes a few months ago, and yet now they're a soft counter for him. It's very possible that the same thing could happen to Yoshi (I hope not, but I can't rule out the possibility since it's happened before).

And even now it's still only a 45:55, not the 55:45 we need to make MK have a bad matchup (Marth has two of those, and some 50:50s too).

I dunno, I just feel that character specific traits and strategies are more diverse than a simple ditto. Your opponent will have the same strengths and tactics, and I just don't think it will be as easy as it seems. Just my opinion.

Even matchups are never easy, or else they wouldn't be even matchups. I get what you're saying. You're saying that playing as a different character will mean that you will be using different strategies than your opponent, and that this would be better for you than trying to beat him with his own character.

But what I'm saying is that if you are truly evenly skilled with both characters, then going with the better matchup is your best bet, no matter how slight the difference is. Diversity does not matter if it doesn't tip the matchup in your favor. Saying that you'd be more likely to win because your using different strengths is saying that
A)You are more skilled with that character, or you would have absolutely no problem using MK
or
B)Your opponent has less matchup experience against that character, meaning that you'd win due to your opponent's lack of matchup experience.

And I am not basing the matchup by inexperience from the other player

Given that there are very few good Yoshis (as you yourself have admitted) I think that it's very possible that MK players are still trying to figure out how to fight against the new kind of Yoshis (essentially it could be considered learning how to fight against a new character).

I mean I'm not trying to completely discredit you, as I'm sure you've put a lot of in depth research into this matchup (or else you would not dare make such claims), but have MK players on the other side done the same? Have MK players had as much time to experiment with different strategies to counteract Yoshi's new strategies?

This is preciscely why I like the time table idea. It feels like we're just grabbing at everything we can to give MK a disadvantage, and I don't think these claims are meeting enough scrutiny. But at the same time they could be right, and it could solve all our problems (or just make banning out of the question).

 

[da K.I.D.]

I skipped like 15 pages since i didn't want to read them, but i sort of had an epiphany.
I think I know what Overswarm is trying to do.
He sees the current metagame with MK dominating and sees that with time and practice, it will only become worse. if we wait for the inevitable, it will be a very dull game to play along the way, and doesn't want to see the community fry only one year into the game. while there are downsides to banning a character so early on in the Metagame, but potentially has far more reward than waiting.

Am i right OS?

As far as i go, yes you are completely right, i cant talk for him but i believe that he would agree as well

It's much simpler than that. He lost to a couple of Meta Knights in tournament and he'd rather it not happen again.

lol yea that too.

Unless he's been lying, OS has been playing as MK and winning easy money that way. I don't believe you are correct.

colin is talking about back when OS mained ROB. He lost to some MKs and was like eff this BS, theres no reason fro me not to take easy street right now, and hes mained MK ever since

 

[da K.I.D.]

Also i had an idea like 20 pages ago,

that if people get MK when they choose random, that should be the only time they are allowed to play as him. it would legitamately make random the best character!!

ban MK but if you are man enough to pick random, you can play with what ever appears for you on the field.

discuss

 

[salaboB]

colin is talking about back when OS mained ROB. He lost to some MKs and was like eff this BS, theres no reason fro me not to take easy street right now, and hes mained MK ever since

And now he's arguing because he hates easy street that much?

 

[infomon]

I know I shouldn't bring this guy up again, but some things need to be said.....

sorry for double post

No you're not; you've done it many times in this thread.

people dont like me. you know thats freakin great, i could care less if anybody on smashboards like me or nor. and the most pathetic part of it all is that they dont like me because im argueing against them and instead of giving proof (in most cases) they are ************* and give me worthless crap.

No, you are disliked because your forum mannerisms have been atrocious; I agree that MK is not ban-worthy yet, so don't try and use that against me. You have repeatedly double-posted, and have used the annoying "replies in red" style even after you were asked not to. You've admitted you skipped over replies to your comments, while constantly repeating your own posts, without addressing the many well-written rebuttals that were given to you by some very well-respected members of this community. You, sir, fail at the internet.

I hope you will learn something through all this. We have been very patient with you, so please try and improve on your manners.

this is how useless people have gotten. instead of arguing about the thread. we start insulting each other. how low can you stoop? this is a disgrace to the freakin game of smash. GG

You held no restraint in dishing out the insults. For example:

wow. another f4g who insults me but fails on logic.

So don't be a hypocrite. You're lucky if a mod hasn't noticed you yet.

and when i said IDK, i mean howm i supposed to know what kind of AT's we'll find in the future? did any of us expect Melee to have wavedashing? i dont think so. im just saying we dont know what kind of AT's will be discovered.

By your logic, we still don't know for sure that Akuma is broken; because maybe there's some new AT that's never been discovered!? This argument fails. (But so did all your others >.> just thought I'd point this out)

guys im tired of this. im going to bed. but sorry if i offended any of you (not sure how i did but yea whatever). in later posts. plz don't be gay like Delta_BP26, whos obviously a poser and fails. try to be more civilized and respectful?

It's hard to take your apology seriously, when you're slinging offensive insults in the very next sentence. Try to be more civilized and respectful?

Can this scrub/troll get banned for this?

Who? brinboy789, or Metaknight?

oh, and if anybody flames this saying "OH YES THAT GUY IS GONE" well i suggest you say something RELATED to the topic, and dont be gay. gnite all

I think we can all unanimously say: OH YES THAT GUY IS GONE. And now for something related to the topic.

i think it would be interesting that banning mk could perhaps allow other metagames to grow and improve even more than they are at the current rate.

That is interesting, but could be true of banning any number of high tiers in any game, right? Falcon's metagame would improve a bunch if he was the only character left

i still think that yours and yunas conditions for a ban are too strict and that OS's list of criteria is the best option for a concrete set of factors that should go into a character ban

They accomplish different purposes. The "other characters have no reasonable chance of winning" is the situation that is ban-worthy. OS' list is a set of concrete criteria that could be used to evaluate if we have reached the first situation; in effect they are OS' definition of what the word "reasonable" is in Yuna's condition. As a member of the not-ban-worthy-but-close camp, I'm going to try and refine OS' conditions to something that I think we'd all be able to agree upon, while still giving us a firm condition that would establish if/when MK's dominance is ban-worthy strong.

 

[Dark Sonic]

^^Yeah salaboB. People like money, but they also like to have fun.

edit: Well, Infzy I kind of already agree with OS's criteria, but I'll be looking foward to yours as well.