The Official "Should/Will Metaknight be banned?" Thread (LISTEN TO THE SBR PODCAST!)

[brinboy789]

so...all in all, this is what ive learned after ive read 3 pages of worthless BS

people dont like me. you know thats freakin great, i could care less if anybody on smashboards like me or nor. and the most pathetic part of it all is that they dont like me because im argueing against them and instead of giving proof (in most cases) they are ************* and give me worthless crap.

and on point 4. i said MK mainers who CONSISTENTLY WIN. not win 1. win CONSISTENTLY.

*silently waits for next useless insult with a scrub uselessly attacking me which does nothing to help this thread*

 

[Tenki]

I wouldn't want Snake to be banned though. He's pretty fun to play against.

/sonics

PS Brinboy, I tried to address 1 and 2.

edit2:
post #2554

this is a fun game.
I'm going to win.

 

[brinboy789]

I wouldn't want Snake to be banned though. He's pretty fun to play against.

/sonics

PS Brinboy, I tried to address 1 and 2.

rly? i mustve missed it while looking through worthless piles of crap. imma go look again

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

so...all in all, this is what ive learned after ive read 3 pages of worthless BS

people dont like me. you know thats freakin great, i could care less if anybody on smashboards like me or nor. and the most pathetic part of it all is that they dont like me because im argueing against them and instead of giving proof (in most cases) they are ************* and give me worthless crap.

and on point 4. i said MK mainers who CONSISTENTLY WIN. not win 1. win CONSISTENTLY.

*silently waits for next useless insult with a scrub uselessly attacking me which does nothing to help this thread*

You refuse to accept local tournaments thats throwing away more than half.

Instead you only want to count tournaments people travel for. tournaments where all of those MK mains that win tournaments are at. There can only be 1 winner and if the best 40 MKs all go to a tournament then your only going to say o M2K is the only one.

People have offered facts you have chosen to ignore them, call them trash, and throw it away.

 

[brinboy789]

You refuse to accept local tournaments thats throwing away more than half.

Instead you only want to count tournaments people travel for. tournaments where all of those MK mains that win tournaments are at. There can only be 1 winner and if the best 40 MKs all go to a tournament then your only going to say o M2K is the only one.

People have offered facts you have chosen to ignore them, call them trash, and throw it away.

i dont want to use local tourneys because do people really count them? especially on the tourney list. because if your just going to count MK wins in local tourneys, then what about the other characters? what about that ratio? someone a few pages said ago it was 35%. i doubt that local tourneys MK wins are 35% and 65% rest of cast

edit: if local tourneys counted on the tourney list, then nothing would change. -.-

 

[brinboy789]

Where's Yuna? Also, owned by Overswarm.

I'll be back tomorrow. I don't even want to hear brinboy's NAME anymore.

i just wanted to point this out

this is how useless people have gotten. instead of arguing about the thread. we start insulting each other. how low can you stoop? this is a disgrace to the freakin game of smash. GG

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

^ that is because you keep on posting your stupid lets wait 10 years and idk arguments saying no one as disproven them

i dont want to use local tourneys because do people really count them? especially on the tourney list. because if your just going to count MK wins in local tourneys, then what about the other characters? what about that ratio? someone a few pages said ago it was 35%. i doubt that local tourneys MK wins are 35% and 65% rest of cast

edit: if local tourneys counted on the tourney list, then nothing would change. -.-

Local tourneys do count for that list. and MK wins like 50% of them now a days.

 

[Tim_The_Enchanter]

Touche Mr Sonic

10engardes

 

[Tenki]

i dont want to use local tourneys because do people really count them? especially on the tourney list. because if your just going to count MK wins in local tourneys, then what about the other characters? what about that ratio? someone a few pages said ago it was 35%. i doubt that local tourneys MK wins are 35% and 65% rest of cast

edit: if local tourneys counted on the tourney list, then nothing would change. -.-

The point values or whatever that are on Ankoku's character ranking list take into account entry fee, number of players, and prize money. And I believe there's a 'minimum player limit' that must be met for results to count.

So in a sense, the local tourneys (ones with lower entry fees/prizes/people) count less.

and MK still dominates the points =/

@ brinboy:
post#2554 (previous page, if you're on default settings for the boards)

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Touche Mr Sonic

10engardes

bows. I saw an opening and I attacked. You'd have done the same.

 

[Rotimer]

I agree with Tenki.

 

[brinboy789]

^ that is because you keep on posting your stupid lets wait 10 years and idk arguments saying no one as disproven them



Local tourneys do count for that list. and MK wins like 50% of them now a days.

umm exxageration much? i said lets wait until the the games metagame is more fully developed until we can even talk about banning a character.

and when i said IDK, i mean howm i supposed to know what kind of AT's we'll find in the future? did any of us expect Melee to have wavedashing? i dont think so. im just saying we dont know what kind of AT's will be discovered.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

What have we learned in this thread? Has there been any learning involved?

1. The forums is split on the issue of a ban.

2. The requirements for a ban are contested among the players.

3. Legitimate theories on what may happen, post ban, have been brought up.

4. Some people don't know what they are talking about.

5. Some people are talking in circles with refuted arguments on both sides.

 

[brinboy789]

The point values or whatever that are on Ankoku's character ranking list take into account entry fee, number of players, and prize money. And I believe there's a 'minimum player limit' that must be met for results to count.

So in a sense, the local tourneys (ones with lower entry fees/prizes/people) count less.

and MK still dominates the points =/

@ brinboy:
post#2554 (previous page, if you're on default settings for the boards)

k gots it. thanks for the CIVILIZED POST, something you can rarely find these days.

 

[brinboy789]

guys im tired of this. im going to bed. but
sorry if i offended any of you (not sure how i did but yea whatever). in later posts. plz don't be gay like Delta_BP26, whos obviously a poser and fails. try to be more civilized and respectful?

i still think MK should not be banned, but hey thats my opinion. IF mk gets banned, i still have more chars (i play all chars cept yoshi and sonic cause i cant use them) so i wouldnt mind THAT much, i just dont think its right for the moment.

oh, and if anybody flames this saying "OH YES THAT GUY IS GONE" well i suggest you say something RELATED to the topic, and dont be gay. gnite all

 

[Tenki]

huh D:

that's all?

no...i think you misinterpreted it



[a]because if we put local tourneys in too, then what about the other chars? what about theyre wins? we arent just watching MK...

and guys, i will be back in 20-40 minutes. if ANY of you can answer
1. the games metagame is NOT even close to being fully developed. a melee AT was discovered like a month ago. melees been out for...8 years? probably more. and yet still AT's are still to be discovered. and brawls physic engines are WAY different the melee, so no AT's were transferred. sure theres a larger community, but its 8 years >>>>>>>>>>>> half a year
2. If wario's CG works, then MK WILL have a bad matchup. NOBODY can argue that an one-mistake = 112% advantage can be good. and even if it doesnt work. most of his matchups at 60:40. thats very winnable.
4. ahh, tourneys. MK dominates them. name one smasher that isnt M2K or Dojo that uses MK that consistently wins tourneys. if you cant, that means M2K and Dojo win the majority of MK wins, sprinkled with a minority of other MK players.

these. i will look for replies with this. i will skive over any gay or useless *** replies.

[a] MK would still have more significant wins. The character rankings list takes into account prizes and number of people.

I'll bring up my old response with a few edits:

1. I'm still waiting for the link to this Melee AT that got discovered after 8 years. Depending on the nature of it, it may gain... or lose weight in your argument. Was it related to the directional airdodge? Was it related to Melee's system of hitting shield and reducing landing lag? Melee's system allowed for a little more variability in gameplay outside of the 5 aerials [and their set landing lag], 'simple' double jump trajectories, and dashes/movement. Brawl's physics are, in a sense, more limited than they were in Melee, which is why people are struggling to find gamebreaking techniques.

EDIT: I cbf'd to wait for you.
I searched up "found" in the Melee Discussion for threads made within the past Month.
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=195828

"Boost Grabbing". It seems like a Brawl technique was applied to Melee.

But you know what's funnier?

If that's the AT you're talking about, then I guess you can say an AT was transferred from Melee to Brawl, because technically speaking, this existed in Melee.

2. I'll hold off on this until there's more confirmation. But to keep you busy until then, ponder on why Falcon's infinite on Wario doesn't change his matchup disadvantage into a sudden neutral (not even pushing for advantage here). I mean really, Falcon just needs one grab and it can cause x damage AND a kill move on Metaknight. It sounds like the Wario-Metaknight chaingrab is much more limited because you have to be frame-perfect to even grab, let alone land a kill move. Falcon's Grab-Release infinite on Wario is better than Wario's chaingrab on Metaknight. >_>

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

umm exxageration much? i said lets wait until the the games metagame is more fully developed until we can even talk about banning a character.

and when i said IDK, i mean howm i supposed to know what kind of AT's we'll find in the future? did any of us expect Melee to have wavedashing? i dont think so. im just saying we dont know what kind of AT's will be discovered.

The waiting game isn't valid like you said 8 years and we still found a new AT in melee whats to stop that from happening in brawl? The metagame may never be fully completed but as of now MK is broken.

If you can't think of something that would make MK unbroken then why are you telling us to wait?

Also wave dashing was found like 3 months after release and if wave dashing was found it would benefit MK just as much as any one else.

 

[Koga]

esentially you are saying MK would have to be able to produce a golden hammer upon command to be CONSIDERED for a ban.

not quite that severe, but he has to have something beyond the realm of skill induced tools. just being all around good and dominating RIGHT NOW doesn't mean he's ban worthy.

something can usually be seen as to broken right when the game comes out, or after a very long time of sampling different situations, since Meta Knight wasn't so good we instabanned him at release, since his dominance is fairly recent, i don't think his overall holistic goodness is closes to ban worthy

 

[Lord Exor]

The only reason people didn't recognize that MK was the best at the start is due to abject ignorance, nothing more.

 

[salaboB]

The waiting game isn't valid like you said 8 years and we still found a new AT in melee whats to stop that from happening in brawl? The metagame may never be fully completed but as of now MK is broken.

It actually sounded like people had found it before but disregarded it because it was never worth using. Since it only picked up a label with Brawl, it only has been labelled after 8 years of Melee. That doesn't mean it hadn't been located and quietly discarded previously.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

koga.... honestly... are you saying that if it's not worthy of an instaban it's not worthy of a ban?

it's not about being unbeatable. it's about being impractically beatable.

 

[Tenki]

In case noone caught it, I think the new AT he was referring to was the boost grab, which is a move made popular in Brawl.

Game breaking? Far from it.

I skimmed through the thread and it looks like they generally have better options.

 

[cman]

Can this scrub/troll get banned for this?

 

[Steeler]

i think it would be interesting that banning mk could perhaps allow other metagames to grow and improve even more than they are at the current rate.

 

[salaboB]

koga.... honestly... are you saying that if it's not worthy of an instaban it's not worthy of a ban?

it's not about being unbeatable. it's about being impractically beatable.

And right here is why we've had such a long discussion. Those saying to not ban him are saying it is only about being unbeatable, those saying ban him (Because of whatever reason) are saying he's impractically beatable and that situation is most likely to degrade even further given more time.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Can this scrub/troll get banned for this?

Brinboy? maybe for repeatedly posting that snippet of text he could recieve a spam infraction... but nothing more. there is no grounds for banning on stupidity.


and, no. a spam infraction is not permenant... unless maybe it's epic spam... which that wasn't

 

[cman]

Brinboy? maybe for repeatedly posting that snippet of text he could recieve a spam infraction... but nothing more. there is no grounds for banning on stupidity.

I take it that a spam infraction wouldn't be permanent?

 

[da K.I.D.]

but i do have to give some appreciation to the dude with falco as his avatar, he stayed completely respectful and because of the way he stated his mind we now have a better idea of what exactly is going on in your mind, thank you for your patience

 

[da K.I.D.]

i still think that yours and yunas conditions for a ban are too strict and that OS's list of criteria is the best option for a concrete set of factors that should go into a character ban

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

The waiting game isn't valid like you said 8 years and we still found a new AT in melee whats to stop that from happening in brawl? The metagame may never be fully completed but as of now MK is broken.

If you can't think of something that would make MK unbroken then why are you telling us to wait?

Also wave dashing was found like 3 months after release and if wave dashing was found it would benefit MK just as much as any one else.

Most of the "LOL MK" stuff has happened with in the past month or two. We can wait until February or March for a final say.

If we ban him if this trend has only appeared as of recent we may end up banning a character who doesn't deserve a ban, much like how the Naruto community banned four characters prematurely where only one of them was actually banworthy.

 

[Dark Sonic]

^^Metaknight players just got better at spacing. He wasn't dominating at the begining because Snake players were beating him...because the MK players were relatively bad. Mearly getting better at spacing was enough to turn that matchup around for MK, and make his already advantageous matchups even more severe.

Nothing short of a metagame revolutionizing AT will change MK's matchups to the point of being even or even slightly disadvantageous (that Wario thing was promising for a while, but still not enough).


^^Also I don't think many anti-ban people realize this (understandably since it's been a while since it was clearly stated), but we are not arguing for Metaknight to be banned...right now. Remember that time table suggested near the begining (waiting till at least a year from brawl's release and reassesing the situation then)? Right now, I believe that MK is potentially ban worthy, and that if this trend continues (or rather, does not reverse at all) then he will need to be banned. I like Overswarm's criteria, not because it fits Metaknight, but because the effect of said criteria is the complete centralization of the Metagame around a single character (since as part of the criteria, no other character in the game fits that criteria).

Now, to address the post MK metagame. Yuna may be right that Marth would be the next best character matchup-wise, but I think he would mearly be the best in the same sense that Fox was in melee. He'd have a fair share of even matchups (more than any of the Melee top tiers actually), he'd have his fair share of bad stages (all of the counterpicks lol), and the combination of these two things could make counterpicking against him...effective. DDD+delfino? Snake+Castle Siege?, it's actually very likely that a simple stage advantage would be enough to tip the match in your favor (as in, actually better than an even matchup).

So with that in mind, I do not think the slipery slope arguement would apply, nor would Marth even fit the criteria for a ban. MK currently does, but we're willing to give him some time in hopes that something is found that would make him...have a bad matchup/stage/situation where MK vs MK is not your best option.

And people bring up the melee top tiers too much. In case you didn't notice, the melee top tiers dominated in the same way that MK does, but they are 3 characters (maybe 4, but Falco seems to be pretty far behind the others), not just 1. The melee top tiers also had bad stages (Marth on pretty much any counterpick stage, Fox on brinstar, Shiek on mute city, ect.). Just sayin', using melee as an example is not helping your case.


@Tenki-Now that I went back to look it up, boost grabbing was actually discovered years ago in melee. It was most noticable with Shiek, who got a large boost because of her dash attack animation. However, boost grabbing never really caught on, because JC grabbing was both faster and safer for most characters, while not sacrificing that much range.

Melee metagame 101

 

[Remzi]

Hmm... this is a tough topic to make a decision on. Some people dont seem to realize how big of a deal it is to ban a character. It would be huge. And as much as I'd like to see the mother ****er gone, the game just hasn't been out long enough to conclude that he has no bad matchups. Hell for a while we thought Snake was the best character, anything can still happen IMO.

Being a Marth main, I lose to about 75-80% of the MK's I play, and it's sad. But it used to be worse, and I'm only getting better at the matchup. So I'm not 100% hopeless yet. Just really close >_>

*EDIT: Was Marth seriously just discussed for banning after MK? His matchups are great, but he isn't even close to banworthy...

 

[Fletch]

Objectively, there's no reason to pick another character than Metaknight. Matchups eeet ceteraaaa.

Objectively, there's no reason not to play Fox. Freaking everybody at least subbed Fox, because he was that good once you got to a competitive level, and if you were "that kind of good" and actually mattered when you showed up at a tournament, there wasn't a match in the game where, assuming you knew what to do and what not to get hit with in that match, you couldn't ruhruhrape everybody. Did you have exploitable weaknesses? Yeah. Were they any worse than anybody else's in the game or stopping you from cleaning up anybody using somebody else, looking at things holistically? Not really.

While I'm not taking sides on the MK ban (quit Brawl a long time ago for Melee to be honest), not everybody "subbed" Fox (Chu comes to mind), and he actually had stages you could counterpick against them as well as counterpick characters. Not saying this is necessarily true, but it seems to be a common idea among the boards that MK has neither of these. Fox also had 3 other characters at his overall level while MK is clearly a tier above the rest. Again, not saying he should/shouldn't be banned, but just saying this situation is quite a bit different from Melee.

EDIT: Holy ****, I cannot keep up with the speed of this thread, everyone stop posting for a while.

 

[Vulcan55]

i still think that yours and yunas conditions for a ban are too strict and that OS's list of criteria is the best option for a concrete set of factors that should go into a character ban

Right. Lets use the one that one person made up this morning instead of the one that's been around, and widely accepted for years.

I think it's funny how you guys seemed to forget about trying to counter my points when that Brinboy guys starting going off. Now that you've "proven him wrong" and "beaten him", I bet you think you've won some sort of mini-victory for you side of the argument or something?

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

ummmm.... who is this guy? V

Right. Lets use the one that one person made up this morning instead of the one that's been around, and widely accepted for years.

I think it's funny how you guys seemed to forget about trying to counter my points when that Brinboy guys starting going off. Now that you've "proven him wrong" and "beaten him", I bet you think you've won some sort of mini-victory for you side of the argument or something?

whoever he is he acts like he's the boss at the end of the level

 

[Vulcan55]

o.O
What is that supposed to mean?

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

^^Metaknight players just got better at spacing. He wasn't dominating at the begining because Snake players were beating him...because the MK players were relatively bad. Mearly getting better at spacing was enough to turn that matchup around for MK, and make his already advantageous matchups even more severe.

That would explain it.

Nothing short of a metagame revolutionizing AT will change MK's matchups to the point of being even or even slightly disadvantageous (that Wario thing was promising for a while, but still not enough).

I'd believe that on of his neutral match-ups could find a new strategy to combat Meta Knight. Heck, I still think Snake has a slight edge on MK (55:45)

^^Also I don't think many anti-ban people realize this (understandably since it's been a while since it was clearly stated), but we are not arguing for Metaknight to be banned...right now. Remember that time table suggested near the begining (waiting till at least a year from brawl's release and reassesing the situation then)? Right now, I believe that MK is potentially ban worthy, and that if this trend continues (or rather, does not reverse at all) then he will need to be banned. I like Overswarm's criteria, not because it fits Metaknight, but because the effect of said criteria is the complete centralization of the Metagame around a single character (since as part of the criteria, no other character in the game fits that criteria).

I posted that statement above due to recent posts sounding like he needed to be banned now. I's support a time table all the way to see how things pan out.

MK is borderline banworthy, will he cross it? We'll wait an see.

Now, to address the post MK metagame. Yuna may be right that Marth would be the next best character matchup-wise, but I think he would mearly be the best in the same sense that Fox was in melee. He'd have a fair share of even matchups (more than any of the Melee top tiers actually), he'd have his fair share of bad stages (all of the counterpicks lol), and the combination of these two things could make counterpicking against him...effective. DDD+delfino? Snake+Castle Siege?, it's actually very likely that a simple stage advantage would be enough to tip the match in your favor (as in, actually better than an even matchup).

Still, Yuna's point is valid, Marth has the match-ups to be top tier with his only soft counter gone.

Speaking of stages I thought that the SBR hinted that one of them found out that one of the stages was a counter pick to Metaknight?

So with that in mind, I do not think the slipery slope arguement would apply, nor would Marth even fit the criteria for a ban. MK currently does, but we're willing to give him some time in hopes that something is found that would make him...have a bad matchup/stage/situation where MK vs MK is not your best option.

We do have options other than him; Yoshi, Kirby, Game & Watch, and Diddy Kong all have neutral match-ups on him.

No one wants to take them.

And people bring up the melee top tiers too much. In case you didn't notice, the melee top tiers dominated in the same way that MK does, but they are 3 characters (maybe 4, but Falco seems to be pretty far behind the others), not just 1. The melee top tiers also had bad stages (Marth on pretty much any counterpick stage, Fox on brinstar, Shiek on mute city, ect.). Just sayin', using melee as an example is not helping your case.

But again, didn't the SBR hint that a stage was a counter pick to MK?

 

[Dark Sonic]

Right. Lets use the one that one person made up this morning instead of the one that's been around, and widely accepted for years.

Except that the one that's been around for years is just as arbitrary and honestly does not seem as well thought out. And that both criteria lead to the same result (the over centralization of the metagame).

It's the result that is the problem. It's the result that even brings up these discussions.

 

[Santi]

The night is always darkest before the dawn......


lolz
=)


I sense dark times ahead...

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

o.O
What is that supposed to mean?

"fools! do you think you have really won. That was not the true threat, only one of my minions. You cannot possibly hope to defeat me. Surrender now or fail"


something like that XD