The Official "Should/Will Metaknight be banned?" Thread (LISTEN TO THE SBR PODCAST!)

[brinboy789]

Heres the thing, MK can get out at 112% with a Shuttle loop easy, so its like 0-112% IF IT WORKS. So far testing is being done on Computers, which is not a person, so we don't know if it works or not.

112% = deadly range for MK. besides shuttle loop makes him vulnerable. sorta

on computers lv9? because theyre reflexes are inhuman

 

[FBM]

My 2 cents on the Wario thing, IF it work:

First off, Wario isn't the ICs: his traction isn't abysmal and he doesn't have to worry about desynching to set up his CG (IF it works).

But yes, MK can space him perfectly. Wario's grab range does suck. A great MK won't be bothered by this CG, save a rare mistake.

That said, it's still a stock a mistake. Arguing that this in no way helps Wario in his matchup vs MK is almost laughable, but at the same time, it's not going to turn it into a 70:30 matchup for Wario. 50:50 doesn't sound unreasonable to me.

 

[brinboy789]

My 2 cents on the Wario thing, IF it work:

First off, Wario isn't the ICs: his traction isn't abysmal and he doesn't have to worry about desynching to set up his CG (IF it works).

But yes, MK can space him perfectly. Wario's grab range does suck. A great MK won't be bothered by this CG, save a rare mistake.

That said, it's still a stock a mistake. Arguing that this in no way helps Wario in his matchup vs MK is almost laughable, but at the same time, it's not going to turn it into a 70:30 matchup for Wario. 50:50 doesn't sound unreasonable to me.

i would say at least 60:40. i mean seriously, a stock a mistake. you cant get much more of an advantage. besides, its just ONE grab. it cant be that hard to do. If it works, Wario's CG will be much easier then IC's because no desynching and perfect timing. probably good timing, but not perfect

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

can someone link me to the warrio chain grab thing?

 

[Master Raven]

KID, leave this debate to the people who aren't kissing *** on either side like you are doing with the pro-ban group.

 

[Vulcan55]

the pro meta ban group has been stomping the anti ban group for the 60 pages that ive been a part of...

its jsut been, person after random scrubby person (including yuna) coming in here and getting their anti ban arguments torn to shreds. and than leaving with their tails between their legs.

Wow.
You guys really think so, huh?

You guys are spouting the exact same ignorant bullshit we refuted 100+ pages ago.
The exact same thing happened with the last thread and thats why it was closed.

If you guys don't bring anything new to the table then there is no point in us debating with you.

All the intelligent people left and you guys are sitting around soaking in a pool of your own ignorant scrubdom, failing to see how ignorant you really are.
Then you try to tell all the other scrubs in this thread "LIEK ZOMG WE ARE TEH WINNARZ! WE R TTLY PWNING THE CARP OUTF DOEZ ANTIBAN SCRUBZ", and of course you are going to get agreements.
Also, scrubs are people who are not willing to accept a game without their own set of made-up rules, and complain about the rules already in existance. Not knowing the definition of a scrub also furthers points about your guys' ignorance.

If/When you guys come up with legitimate arguments, all of us intelligent debaters will be waiting.

 

[FBM]

i would say at least 60:40. i mean seriously, a stock a mistake. you cant get much more of an advantage. besides, its just ONE grab. it cant be that hard to do. If it works, Wario's CG will be much easier then IC's because no desynching and perfect timing. probably good timing, but not perfect

Well, consider this: DDD has an infinite on DK and the matchup is like 80:20.

Here are reasons why Wario having an infinite on MK is a different story.

Now DK barely outspaces DDD. MK has lots of range on Wario, particularly on the ground.

DDD has a long grab range - Wario's is quite short.

DK has at least a bit of lag on all his moves. MK has no lag on almost all of his moves.

DK's moves, for the most part, come out pretty fast, considering his size. MK's are among fastest in the game, period.

 

[da K.I.D.]

is there a way to finish this CG, because wario and D3 can chain grab into oblivion, but if they cant land a kill move afterwards, than theres no point

 

[brinboy789]

can someone link me to the warrio chain grab thing?

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=197931

 

[da K.I.D.]

Wow.
You guys really think so, huh?

You guys are spouting the exact same ignorant bullshit we refuted 100+ pages ago.
The exact same thing happened with the last thread and thats why it was closed.

If you guys don't bring anything new to the table then there is no point in us debating with you.

All the intelligent people left and you guys are sitting around soaking in a pool of your own ignorant scrubdom, failing to see how ignorant you really are.
Then you try to tell all the other scrubs in this thread "LIEK ZOMG WE ARE TEH WINNARZ! WE R TTLY PWNING THE CARP OUTF DOEZ ANTIBAN SCRUBZ", and of course you are going to get agreements.
Also, scrubs are people who are not willing to accept a game without their own set of made-up rules, and complain about the rules already in existance. Not knowing the definition of a scrub also furthers points about your guys' ignorance.

If/When you guys come up with legitimate arguments, all of us intelligent debaters will be waiting.

look at overswarm's criteria for a ban a few pages back, I believe that was a legit argument that wasnt refuted

 

[FBM]

is there a way to finish this CG, because wario and D3 can chain grab into oblivion, but if they cant land a kill move afterwards, than theres no point

Depending on where you are on the stage, you might be able to use bthrow to kill (if that's Wario's best kill throw). But even if you can't, MK at 190 isn't going to survive another hit - it's not like Wario has THAT bad a time against MK that he can't land ONE aerial.

 

[brinboy789]

Well, consider this: DDD has an infinite on DK and the matchup is like 80:20.

Here are reasons why Wario having an infinite on MK is a different story.

Now DK barely outspaces DDD. MK has lots of range on Wario, particularly on the ground.

DDD has a long grab range - Wario's is quite short.

DK has at least a bit of lag on all his moves. MK has no lag on almost all of his moves.

DK's moves, for the most part, come out pretty fast, considering his size. MK's are among fastest in the game, period.

true, true, warios weak point is his range. however, his attacks are fast and strong. he has KO power for killing MK, believe me i used to second him, especially @ 112+

is there a way to finish this CG, because wario and D3 can chain grab into oblivion, but if they cant land a kill move afterwards, than theres no point

wario has a whole collection of kill moves...especially on MK

 

[brinboy789]

look at overswarm's criteria for a ban a few pages back, I believe that was a legit argument that wasnt refuted

sorry for double post, didnt see this one

well no one refuted OUR arguement either. do i have to repost all the arguements?

 

[RP`]

I was just playing against a lvl 9 MK and I can confirm he is NOT overpowered.

 

[Vulcan55]

look at overswarm's criteria for a ban a few pages back, I believe that was a legit argument that wasnt refuted

"Oh here, let me make up some random bullshit criteria that no one has ever heard of and that no one else knows about, and make it perfectly fit the way Metaknight is right now."

Anyone can make up criteria for banning a character.
As it stands right now, nobody is going to be banned until the game has devolved into "play Metaknight or lose".
That is the way it has been accepted for years in the competitive gaming community.
Making up rules is exactly what scrubs do.
Making up ban criteria is no different.

 

[brinboy789]

I was just playing against a lvl 9 MK and I can confirm he is NOT overpowered.

ummmm computers and humans are way different...try tourney scene or wifi

 

[Black_Heretic]

I was just playing against a lvl 9 MK and I can confirm he is NOT overpowered.

I lol'd

sig'd

 

[da K.I.D.]

"Oh here, let me make up some random bullshit criteria that no one has ever heard of and that no one else knows about, and make it perfectly fit the way Metaknight is right now."

Anyone can make up criteria for banning a character.
As it stands right now, nobody is going to be banned until the game has devolved into "play Metaknight or lose".
That is the way it has been accepted for years in the competitive gaming community.
Making up rules is exactly what scrubs do.
Making up ban criteria is no different.

you should really go back and look at it, it was legit criteria for banning any character in just about any game

 

[Tenki]

i would say at least 60:40. i mean seriously, a stock a mistake. you cant get much more of an advantage. besides, its just ONE grab. it cant be that hard to do. If it works, Wario's CG will be much easier then IC's because no desynching and perfect timing. probably good timing, but not perfect

You're just desperately trying to push for an 'advantage' against MK so you can point and laugh and say that MK has a disadvantageous matchup, aren't you?

sorry for double post

falcon = worst
wario = second top on high.
BIG difference matchup like what 80:20?

on the other hand...

wario = see above
MK = best
not that much of a difference. i would say the matchup is 60:40 MK without the CG. however, with it...4/6, possible 3/7

TIER PLACEMENT DOES NOT FACTOR INTO MATCHUPS!

Spoiler

idiot

this.

You cite tier placements as though they were a cause to matchups, whereas matchups are a factor in tier placement.

I watched the Falcon boards during that time when it was announced that Falcon had a grabrelease infinite on Wario. I mean, this is Falcon, the supposed bottom-of-the-barrel character in Brawl. You'd think they'd push for "YAY WE HAVE AN ADVANTAGE!", but no, it didn't really change the matchups much, because
1) Aerial characters like Wario are harder to grab
2) Wario outprioritized and defeated Falcon otherwise with his other moves anyway.

sorry for double post.

you honestly dont think that MK will accidentally give just ONE opening for a grab? and that just ONE opening is a free 190...

I'm not sure what the meaning of this is. Are you supporting the idea that MK is harder to grab? (==> that would be against the idea that a possible grabrelease infinite on MK is a deciding factor in the Wario-MK matchup)

tier placement is a huge matchup factor. why would most of the high tier chars have huge advantage over low tiers chars? coincidence? i don think so.

don tell me to shut up when you know im right. ive seen MK get grabbed enough times to think that if just one grab can go to 190%, then wario OBVIOUSLY has the advantage

unless the cg is banned
then warios screwed

OBJECTION!

Aside from moveset and tourney placings, matchups help decide where a character stands in the tier list. The characters are high tier because of their matchups (generally good matchups against most of the cast? matchup against upper tiers?), and not the other way around.

"unless the cg is banned - then wario's screwed"

From this, you imply that Wario gets owned by MK without the grab.

It's very similar to Falcon v Wario.

Without the grab, Falcon was at a disadvantage to Wario. With the grab- well, Wario's an aerial character that should rarely get grabbed when played safely (remember, taking it to 'high level play'), so the matchup is still advantageous to Wario.

Without the grab, Wario was at a disadvantage to Metaknight. With the grab - well, MK's an aerial character that should rarely get grabbed when played safely (remember, taking it to 'high level play'), so the matchup is still advantageous to Metaknight.

You're basing your argument on information that isn't correct while adamently refusing to believe that other much more reasonable assumptions are not correct.

Support your character when you know what your your talking about.

 

[da K.I.D.]

question

What criteria do you think is necessary to ban a character (ANY CHARACTER) in brawl?


1. Character has no counters or poor matchups
2. Character has no poor stages
3. Character has shown to do reliabily well in local tournaments across the US, taking at least one placement in the top 3 on a consistent basis.
4. Character wins a multitude of local tournaments across the US
5. Character has shown to do reliably well in national tournaments across the US, taking several of the spots in the top 8.
6. Character fits the previous criteria consistently at high levels of play for at least half a year
7. Character prevents a large majority (3/4) of the other characters from being played competitively
8. Character has a even matchup at worst with a large majority (3/4) of the highest ranking characters on the tier list
9. Character has no other characters in the game that share these qualities


All of this criteria must be met.



This is mine

i think this is very legitamate and was not specifically conformed to include MK, and with slight variations (number 2 wouldnt matter in SF for example, this could be ban worthy criteria for any game

 

[Grunt]

you should really go back and look at it, it was legit criteria for banning any character in just about any game

That's funny, because I was sure it fits MK exactly and no one else.

 

[salaboB]

Making up rules is exactly what scrubs do.

All TOs are scrubs.

You heard it here first.

 

[Vulcan55]

you should really go back and look at it, it was legit criteria for banning any character in just about any game

No it's not.

One persons OPINION (Not to mention a heavily biased one) does not have any merit whatsoever.
It is not legitimate.
Purple name + agrees with your views != Legitimate argument.

All TOs are scrubs.

You heard it here first.

Putting words in my mouth isn't a counter argument.
Try again.

 

[brinboy789]

you should really go back and look at it, it was legit criteria for banning any character in just about any game

i saw his post and the whole post summed up was:

MK MUST BE BANNED because he has no bad matchups. (pwned if wario can CG MK until 112%)
really, what other criteria do we have to shut down?
lets see...
OMG everybody is switching to MK! (bull****. except for tierwhores, nobody is changing) people are actually starting to opt out of MK because of all this **** that people are talking about him
OMG THE METAGAME WILL NOT EVOLVE UNTIL MK IS BANNED (once again, BS) i saw the poll that samuraipanda made, and MK had 15 votes, which was like 4% of all characters. lucario had like 34 for gods sake.
MORE PROOF THAT NOT EVERYBODY IS HORDING TO MK: look at the amount of looks that MK is atractting at the forums. he is around 20000. sure, thats more then average, but now lets look at:
Ike : 27000
marth: 26000
lucario: 27000
olimar: 21000
sonic: 43000 view (wtf O.o)

so as you can see, all these points are pure BS. anything else?

 

[salaboB]

Putting words in my mouth isn't a counter argument.
Try again.

You said making up rules is what scrubs do. TOs are responsible for the rules used at their tournament. Therefore, TOs make up the rules, therefore TOs are scrubs.

This is a discussion about the ruleset for TOs to base those decisions on. How is it scrubby to have a proper talking through about it? Does this mean everyone who worked on the banned stages list are scrubs as well? And the decision to leave items turned off?

I think you should keep your Sirlin parroting out of the thread, you can't even apply his misdefined term properly.

 

[da K.I.D.]

That's funny, because I was sure it fits MK exactly and no one else.

maybe because hes the only broken character, did you ever think of that?

No it's not.

One persons OPINION (Not to mention a heavily biased one) does not have any merit whatsoever.
It is not legitimate.
Purple name + agrees with your views != Legitimate argument.


Putting words in my mouth isn't a counter argument.
Try again.

explain to me in words why this criteria is not legitamate, because from where im looking, it seems that you cant think of any way to invalidate this list, and there fore you resort to attacking mine (and overswarms) credibility

 

[brinboy789]

maybe because hes the only broken character, did you ever think of that?

explain to me in words why this criteria is not legitamate, because from where im looking, it seems that you cant think of any way to invalidate this list, and there fore you resort to attacking mine (and overswarms) credibility

ignore much? see my previous post

 

[salaboB]

ignore much? see my previous post

Rewording the post only showed how you had misinterpreted it, you didn't explain why those are poor criteria when looked at all together.

 

[FBM]

That's funny, because I was sure it fits MK exactly and no one else.

Since one of the rules is "these criteria must apply only to one character," it wouldn't really be able to fit anyone else, now would it?

That said, I personally think MK needs a little bit more tournament dominance than what's listed in OS's criteria, because you have to make a couple distinctions: is he a broken character or just a bandwagon character? how many of his wins are from people who would win using a different character anyway?

 

[Grunt]

maybe because hes the only broken character, did you ever think of that?

I mean out of other characters of different games that were banned and/or close to it.

explain to me in words why this criteria is not legitimate

Ones that stick out to me are Akuma and Wobbufett. they are banned for not only having no bad matchups (true with metaknight) but crushing anything that dare oppose it. this means locking down EVERYONE else in the game, not "at least 3/4". There are characters from other games that hold the same line of "winning lots of tournies and not having a counter, but very possible to beat." that aren't banned, why should metaknight be different?

 

[da K.I.D.]

question

What criteria do you think is necessary to ban a character (ANY CHARACTER) in brawl?


1. Character has no counters or poor matchups
2. Character has no poor stages
3. Character has shown to do reliabily well in local tournaments across the US, taking at least one placement in the top 3 on a consistent basis.
4. Character wins a multitude of local tournaments across the US
5. Character has shown to do reliably well in national tournaments across the US, taking several of the spots in the top 8.
6. Character fits the previous criteria consistently at high levels of play for at least half a year
7. Character prevents a large majority (3/4) of the other characters from being played competitively
8. Character has a even matchup at worst with a large majority (3/4) of the highest ranking characters on the tier list
9. Character has no other characters in the game that share these qualities


All of this criteria must be met.

oh my god, you did exactly what i said yuna was going to do, you took the entire post and reduced it to popularity which has nothing to do with this list.

i am going to continue posting this until someone goes point by point and tells me why this list is not valid criteria for a ban

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

the pro meta ban group has been stomping the anti ban group for the 60 pages that ive been a part of...

its jsut been, person after random scrubby person (including yuna) coming in here and getting their anti ban arguments torn to shreds. and than leaving with their tails between their legs.

...more like if you look back at the comments Yuna and others made, none of them have been properly refuted.

 

[brinboy789]

i saw his post and the whole post summed up was:

MK MUST BE BANNED because he has no bad matchups. (pwned if wario can CG MK until 112%)
really, what other criteria do we have to shut down?
lets see...
OMG everybody is switching to MK! (bull****. except for tierwhores, nobody is changing) people are actually starting to opt out of MK because of all this **** that people are talking about him
OMG THE METAGAME WILL NOT EVOLVE UNTIL MK IS BANNED (once again, BS) i saw the poll that samuraipanda made, and MK had 15 votes, which was like 4% of all characters. lucario had like 34 for gods sake.
MORE PROOF THAT NOT EVERYBODY IS HORDING TO MK: look at the amount of looks that MK is atractting at the forums. he is around 20000. sure, thats more then average, but now lets look at:
Ike : 27000
marth: 26000
lucario: 27000
olimar: 21000
sonic: 43000 view (wtf O.o)

so as you can see, all these points are pure BS. anything else?

there it is. overswarm had a huge post on how mk is broken (yes i know he is) and how he has no neutral matchups

Rewording the post only showed how you had misinterpreted it, you didn't explain why those are poor criteria when looked at all together.

i killed his arguements, and added more to mine. your move

 

[Tenki]

brinboy: OBJECTION!

i saw his post and the whole post summed up was:

MK MUST BE BANNED because he has no bad matchups. (pwned if wario can CG MK until 112%) ...
really, what other criteria do we have to shut down?
lets see...
OMG everybody is switching to MK! (bull****. except for tierwhores, nobody is changing) And how many tourney players are 'tier whores'? Almost noone is changing mains now. They changed months ago, when people started to recognize MK>Snake overall.people are actually starting to opt out of MK because of all this **** that people are talking about him
OMG THE METAGAME WILL NOT EVOLVE UNTIL MK IS BANNED (once again, BS) i saw the poll that samuraipanda made, and MK had 15 votes, which was like 4% of all characters. lucario had like 34 for gods sake.
MORE PROOF THAT NOT EVERYBODY IS HORDING TO MK: look at the amount of looks that MK is atractting at the forums. he is around 20000. sure, thats more then average, but now lets look at:
Ike : 27000
marth: 26000
lucario: 27000
olimar: 21000
sonic: 43000 view (wtf O.o)

so as you can see, all these points are pure BS. anything else?

OBJECTION!
Yes. Your points (I blue'd them) are BS as well, considering their sources and your conclusions from them are horribly flawed.

- By SamuraiPanda's thread, you mean this thread?
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=196093

it's in General Brawl Discussion. For that to be even near accurate - at least a large majority of the players here have to have participated in that poll - and even that wouldn't be accurate enough because not all of the competitive smash community comes to SWF, let alone have viewed that thread. Many players avoid GBD because it's generally a casual subforum that, for the most part, doesn't have to do with competitive Brawl. That thread is not even stickied anymore, who's going to be answering that poll?
That thread's replies are from people who go to the smashboards forums, and specifically, GBD. That's not necessarily even frequented by competitive players. It only represents a small part (GBD frequenters/the few people who saw the thread) of the forum, and the forum itself represents only a portion of the competitive smash community.

edit:
besides, some people main characters that they like.
but when it comes down to winning in an actual match that counts, they'll take their SECONDARY, MK, to win.

- On Sonic boards post count:
Sonic boards had over 20000 posts BEFORE Brawl was released, most of which came from fanboys who wanted Sonic in Brawl and don't even main him anymore. One such historic thread ("The Official Sonic thread") has over 15000 posts, and aside from that of course, there's the cholesterol-full spam. Look at me. I joined in April and I have more posts than most people here get in years.

 

[brinboy789]

oh my god, you did exactly what i said yuna was going to do, you took the entire post and reduced it to popularity which has nothing to do with this list.


1. Character has no counters or poor matchupswario maybe if CG works
2. Character has no poor stages...no poor stages? what kind of neutral stage is a poor stage for any char?
3. Character has shown to do reliabily well in local tournaments across the US, taking at least one placement in the top 3 on a consistent basis.dojo, m2k. fine me another MK that dominates tourneys and wins consistently
4. Character wins a multitude of local tournaments across the USsame as point 3?
5. Character has shown to do reliably well in national tournaments across the US, taking several of the spots in the top 8.keeps on referring to tourneys. same as point 3
6. Character fits the previous criteria consistently at high levels of play for at least half a yearok, so hes a high level charater. so?
7. Character prevents a large majority (3/4) of the other characters from being played competitivelycheck out melee. were any except for the top 5 played? (except on rare occasions)
8. Character has a even matchup at worst with a large majority (3/4) of the highest ranking characters on the tier listsame as point 1. pwned if wario can CG
9. Character has no other characters in the game that share these qualitiesi thought we all agreed MK is broken. just not go an extent where he can be banned


i am going to continue posting this until someone goes point by point and tells me why this list is not valid criteria for a ban

stop posting this lol. i pwned them half of his points refer to tourney play

 

[MorphedChaos]

Uhm, about the wario thing, CPU 9 has gotten smart and can get out of it now around 32%, and I'm doing it correctly. So either I'm getting wrong timing, or its not a real CG.

 

[brinboy789]

OBJECTION!
Yes. Your points are BS as well, considering their sources and your conclusions from them are horribly flawed.

- By SamuraiPanda's thread, you mean this thread?
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=196093

it's in General Brawl Discussion. For that to be even near accurate - no. Many players avoid GBD because it's generally a casual subforum that, for the most part, doesn't have to do with competitive Brawl. It's not even stickied anymore.
That thread's replies are from people who go to the smashboards forums, and specifically, GBD. That's not necessarily even frequented by competitive players. It only represents a small part (GBD frequenters/the few people who saw the thread) of the forum, and the forum itself represents only a portion of the competitive smash community.

- On Sonic boards post count:
Sonic boards had over 20000 posts BEFORE Brawl was released, most of which came from fanboys who wanted Sonic in Brawl and don't even main him anymore. One such historic thread ("The Official Sonic thread") has over 15000 posts, and aside from that of course, there's the cholesterol-full spam. Look at me. I joined in April and I have more posts than most people here get in years.

well what other source do i have? and besides, my points with the forums is just icing on the cake. i refuted that guys points

 

[da K.I.D.]

did yun invalidate 3/4 of the cast for tourneys by himself

was chunli the only character to consistently top 3 every tourney .

no and no

was akuma the only character in the game that had no counters or even matches

did justice hold an advantage against all the best GG characters

yes and yes, it sounds to me like this list is fitting other fighting games for bans pretty well

 

[brinboy789]

Uhm, about the wario thing, CPU 9 has gotten smart and can get out of it now around 32%, and I'm doing it correctly. So either I'm getting wrong timing, or its not a real CG.

cpus get smart? O.o and if this only happened once then you messed up

 

[salaboB]

i killed his arguements, and added more to mine. your move

You ...summarized his arguments. That is so far from killing them it's not even funny. You must explain why character dominance and no counterpick stages isn't a problem for the tournament scene, when it starts to severely impact the viable player options because everyone starts playing as that character. You have not done anything to address the damage that is being caused.

...more like if you look back at the comments Yuna and others made, none of them have been properly refuted.

This is for a couple reasons. First, Yuna never addressed why damage to the community and loss of players is ignorable. The closest he has come is saying "The game would be better off dead" and "We don't need scrubs" (Loose quotes) which is utterly nonconstructive. Second, Yuna himself has said the Marth argument was only to say that the criteria eventually used to ban MK would have to not catch other characters that weren't too powerful, and had nothing to do with not banning MK. Of course, he still trots it out whenever he feels like it and pretends it's arguing against it, but he has specifically said multiple times it isn't part of it. This is the case with a number of his arguments, so the reason they aren't countered is because there was no reason to counter them.