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Because Overswarm's ban criteria is not generally accepted by the community? Like, he just made up those rules and posted them here, what, this morning? I'm not saying it's a bad list, just that it's arbitrary and requires scrutiny. The existing, established criteria is something like "no other character stands a reasonable chance of winning", and this doesn't seem to be the case. As people like Azen are able to beat out some really good MKs with other characters.
because its the closest thing we have to actually having one, and because people have been asking for a set criteria for ages
MK is just as hard to use as the rest of the cast. he just has more advantages. why cant this get people get this through their heads? if tahts true, they how come i havent seen an MK that consistently wins tourneys except for M2K and Dojo?
then why aren't we deciding wheter or not we AGREE with the criteria instead of bickering circles around it like children?
because they beat the other MKs
It has been the widely accepted criteria "for ages" that a character is to be banned when the game turns into "Play said character or lose".
Minus everything, Plus "When the game becomes Play MK or lose".
how about instead of agreeing to someones OPINION or not, we can go on my post, which i state with FACTS. good, simple, logic, 4 points on why MK shouldnt be banned. if you are to somehow prove me wrong. i will apologize for what ive done, and you win. if you dont, then stop being a scrub
you think you're hot **** huh? well come back when you can tell me why cold hard facts can't possibly say why MK should or should not be banned.
But there is also no imaginable AT that will give MK a problem, unless it's character specific. And the other characters aren't being used enough by the players who would be most likely to discover these things, because they're playing MK instead. Any general AT that gives others an edge will likely neutralize with MK being able to capitalize it just as well, unless it's something that relies on having a projectile (Which is again, pretty much character specific.)
If Wario's CG works, yes. If. Bring this one up once it's been proven to work. And being winnable is irrelevent when there's no reason to pick anyone but MK. The ease of many of his victories seem to indicate the matchups aren't actually 60:40, I suspect the charts are just inaccurate on this and most are tipped more heavily towards MK.
Other characters have bad stages. What this means is you can't even counterpick a stage against MK to pick up an advantage, so there's no way to push any of the even close to neutral matchups to advantages to you. So you may as well play MK, because that's the best matchup you're going to get. How is it not a problem when people have to switch to MK to beat him at times, because there is no other option or stage they can pick instead to gain the same kind of edge?
I don't know enough high level players to do this, so someone else will have to pick that one up. I doubt M2K and Dojo have gone to enough tournies to have accumulated nearly as many wins for MK as he's got though. You didn't actually demonstrate that MK didn't dominate by saying a scattering of people are winning with him. In fact, that points to him being too effective because he's causing problems for other non-MK players who could otherwise win. It would be stronger for your argument if people could name just a few other really skilled players who are responsible for MK's wins, but the fact is people are picking him up and just thrashing others with him, causing those people to either switch or quit playing because they can't do a thing about it. That points to MK being too effective.
1.There are tons of people looking for stuff in Brawl. Metagame has progressed farther than you think.
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Azen was forced to play MK or lose at HOBO in losers finals.
DDD, G&W, and Snake...
@ delta: if your gonna say something, back it up with facts, not insults please. it doesnt help anything.
So it's worse than 40-60 with all of them? Says what?
most of the *low* tier characters are doomed with him. same with all the high tiers.
I'm aware of that but you might aswell add a last point: "Said character has wings". I could then argue against it and you'd bring up the fact that each criteria means nothing by itself.
This point is wrong. Why? because one of MK's biggest strengths is that he has NO punishable weakness. Absolutely nothing to exploit. his ONLY downsides are his lack of a projectile and his light weight. but they aren't exploitable weaknesses because he covers them up with his advantages. and there is no way around those advantages. he has speed, priority, range and a SICKENING lack of lag. hell he's essentially immune to ALL OoS options, something no other charcter can claim. Quite simply, no AT could conceivably counteract this. no form of movement, nothing. you can't , you just can't exploit his weaknesses.
a) logic fail. ZSS can chain throw... or maybe it was an infinite against wario... I can't recall... but he's still a bad matchup for her. the throwing consideration is almost nothing because it's so hard to apply.... and the wario thing is wrong anyway so
right.... melee figthers don't have any bad stages.... right... do I even have to respond to this one with a specific example? if so please wait until I can find ALL the melee fighters with truly AWFUL stages so I can completely ream this. regardless. it's SOOOOOO far from being true it's not funny.
oh... so we don't expect the best MK's to win now?
okay... I think I win now. does that mean you become a good little August 2008 n00b and listen to others with more reasonable arguments?
This argument is one I love. We can't possibly be expected to adapt to the brick wall that is Metaknight. I play Luigi, primarily. Luigi is utterly ***** by Metaknight. "Oh yeah get better and don't get hit" yeah good ****ing luck doing that when it's Metaknight you're fighting. Other members of the "Sacred 7" of competitive play have counters. But characters who rely on aerial combat might as well jump off the ledge once the match starts against Metaknight, as the game will end that quickly anyway. Why should we even be forced to adapt to such radical conditions? Other fighting games get along just fine with their rosters. Brawl should too.
God you moron go look at tournament results dojo got 9th at hobo 11 your talking about him like he is 1 of 2 while there are a lot more.
Once against one person.
Except not
WRONG!
Plenty of other MKs doesn't count because we don't know there skill. We know the skill of this MK was at the top and azen was forced to play MK or loose.
Azen only dittoed Lee's MK because his MK was easier to ditto with than some of the better MKs like M2K/Forte/Omni/etc.
GW shuts Luigi the crap down too. DDD unfunite. Luigi's already screwed hard in a meta-less world.
Didn't azens Lucario get smacked up by lee's mk, which made azen go mk and destroy him?
That makes it irritatingly hard to respond to you.
Give me an example of a general AT (not character specific) that you can think up (That won't work, obviously. But can you even think of something that could be done?) that will help others but not MK as much. Explain how the character specific ATs will be located in a reasonable timeframe (If ever) if the majority of players are all spending their time practicing as Meta Knight.
Very good, you said if. So you should have no problem not counting this as a point in your favor yet. And assuming it is accurate, 60:40 is obviously still enough that people are using MK to fight MK rather than intentionally gimping themselves with a 40:60 matchup.
It's not having an advantage, it's having a disadvantage. There are stages that some characters, due to their movesets/recoveries/whatever actually perform worse on. Meta Knight does not suffer from this, so not only does he have advantaged matchups on stages that are neutral to both him and his opponent, there is no stage that gives him a disadvantage that his opponent could try to pick either. It just makes the problem of very few even matchups and the rest advantages even more significant. The character boards have discussions about which stages favor their characters, and which you want to avoid trying to counterpick people on. This is a known phenomenon, I'm not just making it up to somehow disprove you with a fake point.
A number of other people have addressed this point and given names. Read and respond to theirs.
There are a number of reports from various people in this thread, including TOs, of less attendance and people citing MK as why they didn't show. If you want to call them liars, feel free -- but that's what you're doing if you don't acknowledge their statements.
This is not a fact, it is an opinion.
The ATs wouldn't be revolving around MK. It's stupid to put the entire focus of the game's metagame development on "How do we find ATs that are only useful against MK". What would happen would be other characters would be picked up by the best players, the ones most likely to find things, as well as simply more people playing them all, ATs would be found that would make those characters more effective, and then after this extra playtime has helped develop non-MK characters enough he could be introduced again to competitive play and checked for what the new tactics do against him. Of course, since he'd still be used some in practice and at tournaments that chose to not follow the ban, you'd get to see the ATs in use on the fly anyway and probably wouldn't need to bother testing a ban lift to see -- but the option would certainly be present.
