The Official "Should/Will Metaknight be banned?" Thread (LISTEN TO THE SBR PODCAST!)

[Tim_The_Enchanter]

How can you possibly say MK is unpopular and is not overplayed? There are over 150 pages of text that proves otherwise.

 

[MorphedChaos]

Nah, its happened like 7 times now. So either I'm not buffering it right, or its not a CG. We'd need M2K or someone who can get frame data to verify this.

 

[brinboy789]

You ...summarized his arguments. That is so far from killing them it's not even funny. You must explain why character dominance and no counterpick stages isn't a problem for the tournament scene, when it starts to severely impact the viable player options because everyone starts playing as that character. You have not done anything to address the damage that is being caused.


This is for a couple reasons. First, Yuna never addressed why damage to the community and loss of players is ignorable. The closest he has come is saying "The game would be better off dead" and "We don't need scrubs" (Loose quotes) which is utterly nonconstructive. Second, Yuna himself has said the Marth argument was only to say that the criteria eventually used to ban MK would have to not catch other characters that weren't too powerful, and had nothing to do with not banning MK. Of course, he still trots it out whenever he feels like it and pretends it's arguing against it, but he has specifically said multiple times it isn't part of it. This is the case with a number of his arguments, so the reason they aren't countered is because there was no reason to counter them.

the problem with your arguement is, not many people are switching to MK. only tierwhores. yes MK dominates. in melee, the top 3 players all used marth. why didnt we ban marth? and no counterpick stages? as in all neutral stages give advantage to MK? no. MK is a melee fighter so stages dont really effect him all that much.

i dont remember yuna ever saying those things. but then again, i was missing for 50 pages so...

 

[Tenki]

well what other source do i have? and besides, my points with the forums is just icing on the cake. i refuted that guys points

Maybe you don't have any other sources to back up your supposed refutations, and your refutations are nothing more than loud, weightless, opinion.
Maybe you could cite tournament placings and patterns within them, but will that really help your cause?

 

[brinboy789]

How can you possibly say MK is unpopular and is not overplayed? There are over 150 pages of text that proves otherwise.

he IS popular and he IS overplayed, but not to the point of a ban.

sorry for double post

 

[MorphedChaos]

i dont remember yuna ever saying those things. but then again, i was missing for 50 pages so...

Yeah, I think he did, not sure, but I think thats why Yuna left. I remember him saying it on like... Page 57 I think? I dunno, this topic moves wayy too fast.

 

[salaboB]

i dont remember yuna ever saying those things. but then again, i was missing for 50 pages so...

Those are the only "uncountered" arguments I was aware of. And yes, he did say the game would be better off completely dead competitively than having MK banned solely for "popularity".

 

[Grunt]

did yun invalidate 3/4 of the cast for tourneys by himself

I dont know enough about SF3 to argue, but a source would be nice.

was chunli the only character to consistently top 3 every tourney .

No, and neither is Metaknight

was akuma the only character in the game that had no counters or even matches?

Old Sagat

did justice hold an advantage against all the best GG characters?

not sure on this one. Justice is only in some Japanese GG right?

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

did yun invalidate 3/4 of the cast for tourneys by himself

was chunli the only character to consistently top 3 every tourney .

no and no

was akuma the only character in the game that had no counters or even matches

did justice hold an advantage against all the best GG characters

yes and yes, it sounds to me like this list is fitting other fighting games for bans pretty well

Except Akuma 90:10/80:20/70:30'd the entire cast. He didn't even have neutral match-ups.

Metaknight on the other hand only has multiple 60:40's with a few 70:30's and 50:50's

 

[brinboy789]

ive been wondering...can ANYBODY refute this point?

brawl has been out for HALF A YEAR. a little longer. how can we ban a character when the metagames just begun to evolve? a recent yoshi AT has been discovered so that yoshi is neutral with MK, and yoshis recovery is below average, and MK is king of gimping, so it mustve been a good AT. new thigns are being discovered allthe time. for instance, i was on melee forums other day (cause my friend a meleefreak wanted me to) and i was on discussion and it was discussing a newfound AT. >.< melee has been out for like...at least 8 years and even now more AT's are being found. a character ban is a last resort. how can you ban a character only half a year into the game?

 

[Vulcan55]

You said making up rules is what scrubs do. TOs are responsible for the rules used at their tournament. Therefore, TOs make up the rules, therefore TOs are scrubs.

No, they don't.
Most TOs abide by the SBRs rules and slightly skew them with the leeway the rules give them.

Plus, you are somewhat right because I had used some poor wording.
If you refuse to play without said made-up rules, then you are a scrub.
There is more to a scrub than that, though.

This is a discussion about the ruleset for TOs to base those decisions on. How is it scrubby to have a proper talking through about it?

I never said it wasn't.

explain to me in words why this criteria is not legitamate,

You seem to be misusing the word legitimate.
For something to be legitimate, it must be in accordance with accepted standards.

Fitting made-up rules exactly around one character is not legitimate.
The accepted standards now for banning a character state that the game must devolve into "play X character or lose".
You cannot ban Metaknight simply because he is Metaknight, but that is exactly what Overswarm is proposing.

because from where im looking, it seems that you cant think of any way to invalidate this list, and there fore you resort to attacking mine (and overswarms) credibility

That list was never "valid" in the first place.

 

[MorphedChaos]

ive been wondering...can ANYBODY refute this point?

brawl has been out for HALF A YEAR. a little longer. how can we ban a character when the metagames just begun to evolve? a recent yoshi AT has been discovered so that yoshi is neutral with MK, and yoshis recovery is below average, and MK is king of gimping, so it mustve been a good AT. new thigns are being discovered allthe time. for instance, i was on melee forums other day (cause my friend a meleefreak wanted me to) and i was on discussion and it was discussing a newfound AT. >.< melee has been out for like...at least 8 years and even now more AT's are being found. a character ban is a last resort. how can you ban a character only half a year into the game?

The respite to this argument, is that most of our Metagame knowledge from brawl stems from Melee, so Brawl's Metagame could grow at a MUCH faster rate then melee, or so people say. Thats why a ban is being considered.

Sorry if thats short, but its what I've been told. (FYI, this topic is great for getting your post count up. )

 

[Creo]

@Grunt:
Justice was in Guilty Gear X2 Reload: The Midnight Canival for X-box. Tell me if I'm wrong, but Kliff was also banned too, correct?
Guilty Gear is on another level though. Justice and Kliff are Akuma like. For the most part(in Accent Core), the characters seem to be more balanced out, without a huge gap between the tier lists.

 

[salaboB]

a recent yoshi AT has been discovered so that yoshi is neutral with MK, and yoshis recovery is below average, and MK is king of gimping, so it mustve been a good AT.

Yoshi hasn't proved himself even with MK in practice when played against a high level MK.

I'm pretty sure he's also not that bad at recovering if played well, so your facts about Yoshi are starting off wrong.

 

[MorphedChaos]

Hey, wasn't Link banned in SC2? I mean, he could instantly oneshot anyone in the game if they let him get a soul charge off...

Still testing the Wario thing. Still I'm not sure on the criteria, I need a human player to try it on.

 

[brinboy789]

The respite to this argument, is that most of our Metagame knowledge from brawl stems from Melee, so Brawl's Metagame could grow at a MUCH faster rate then melee, or so people say. Thats why a ban is being considered.

Sorry if thats short, but its what I've been told. (FYI, this topic is great for getting your post count up. )

brawls physics engine is WAY different then melees, so i dont think any AT's were transferred...and even if theres a larger communities, 8 years >>>>>>>> half a year. you cant go banning a char with only half a year of experience. it jsut doesnt work

 

[MorphedChaos]

brawls physics engine is WAY different then melees, so i dont think any AT's were transferred...and even if theres a larger communities, 8 years >>>>>>>> half a year. you cant go banning a char with only half a year of experience. it jsut doesnt work

I dunno mate, I'm just repeating whats been said. Personally I wanna see a time window of when they'll make the decision to ban MK, but thats me.

 

[brinboy789]

Yoshi hasn't proved himself even with MK in practice when played against a high level MK.

I'm pretty sure he's also not that bad at recovering if played well, so your facts about Yoshi are starting off wrong.

@ first line: there arent many high-level yoshis are there? its the NEW matchup chart im referring too. i saw the AT thread too, i just didnt bother going there cause i hate being yoshi

@ second line: his second jump is amazing and has super armor frames, but beyond that...up+B? and if yoshi is gimped after the second jump, hes screwed. MK = king of gimping

sorry for double post

 

[MorphedChaos]

Yoshi's second jump doesn't have SA frames, but has special SA frames like Snake's Cypher, a big hit like a smash or a gordo can knock him out of it.

CPU 9s becoming a real problem now, he can break out of it fairly well. I'm going to be hopeful and say my timing is off, but I dunno...

 

[Tenki]

ive been wondering...can ANYBODY refute this point?

brawl has been out for HALF A YEAR. a little longer. how can we ban a character when the metagames just begun to evolve? a recent yoshi AT has been discovered so that yoshi is neutral with MK, and yoshis recovery is below average, and MK is king of gimping, so it mustve been a good AT. new thigns are being discovered allthe time. for instance, i was on melee forums other day (cause my friend a meleefreak wanted me to) and i was on discussion and it was discussing a newfound AT. >.< melee has been out for like...at least 8 years and even now more AT's are being found. a character ban is a last resort. how can you ban a character only half a year into the game?

Enlighten me:
- which AT, mind linking the threads? (this applies to both Yoshi, and the Melee reference)

 

[Vulcan55]

I dunno mate, I'm just repeating whats been said.

Surprise. At least I can respect the honesty.

 

[TeeVee]

He's talking about the chaingrab which is only effective on fd and some other level (smashville?). The yoshi mains insist that the matchup is even but meta mains say it's easily in metas favor....

 

[da K.I.D.]

oh my god, you did exactly what i said yuna was going to do, you took the entire post and reduced it to popularity which has nothing to do with this list.


1. Character has no counters or poor matchups wario maybe if CG worksmoot point warios cg is escapable at 32, point 1 is still valid
2. Character has no poor stages...no poor stages? what kind of neutral stage is a poor stage for any char?a. you may include counterpicks in this argument. b. lylat cruise is bad for fox and wolf, i play them trust me. your arguement holds no water, therefore point 2 still stands
3. Character has shown to do reliabily well in local tournaments across the US, taking at least one placement in the top 3 on a consistent basis.dojo, m2k. fine me another MK that dominates tourneys and wins consistentlywho the hell are you? you win tourneys? anyway, theres also DSF, Plank, and KingAce just to name a few. and because of this, MKs win tourneys all over the country and in canada consistently. point 3 still stands
4. Character wins a multitude of local tournaments across the US same as point 3?which happens to still be valid now. also, number 3 indicatates top 3 placings while number 4 references WINS SPECIFICALLY. for example, at the last HOBO, MK players held all three of the top three places. still valid.
5. Character has shown to do reliably well in national tournaments across the US, taking several of the spots in the top 8. keeps on referring to tourneys. same as point 3 while 3 and 4 reference wins and top 3s, this one specifically talks about top 8s which is different. and example, once again at HOBO, 5-6 of the top 8 played MK thats 63% of the top 8 using MK and 37% of the top 8 who didnt use him. thats a big deal and this point still stands
6. Character fits the previous criteria consistently at high levels of play for at least half a year ok, so hes a high level charater. so? hes completely dominated every other character for 6 months now (except snake, who hes only been dominating for about3 months), is that not important? you didnt really refute this point so point 6 still stands
7. Character prevents a large majority (3/4) of the other characters from being played competitively check out melee. were any except for the top 5 played? (except on rare occasions)there were 7 tourney viable characters in brawl, the main 4 and the very few numbers of CFs, peachs adn jigglys (jiggly won pound btw remember) and brawl has 1 character (2 if you are really good with snake) also see number 9. because of number 9 this point still stands
8. Character has a even matchup at worst with a large majority (3/4) of the highest ranking characters on the tier list same as point 1. pwned if wario can CGwhich he cant so point 8 still stands
9. Character has no other characters in the game that share these qualities i thought we all agreed MK is broken. just not go an extent where he can be bannedthat has nothing to do with the point that was made, point 9 still stands


all in all your posts are very subjective and highly opinion based and thus shouldnt be used in this discussion.


btw, now i feel bad because in the time it took me to do this, i know that theres been at least a pages worth of people that have said all of this already

 

[brinboy789]

Surprise. At least I can respect the honesty.

agreed. honesty ftw. and tenki, ill look for it, but if yuo look @ the new matchup chart yoshi is neutral to MK

 

[RP`]

Brinboy, would you shut the **** up already? You aren't refuting ****. All you are doing is finding an answer and trying to "refute", or in your case just spewing out a bunch of bull**** that is dancing around the issue. So what if Wario can CG MK (well, not really)? Yoshi also looks good against MK on paper. Enough to almost be considered neutral. But you know what? He still gets beat. Paper and reality are two different things. Yeah, Wario MAY be able to CG MK, but how practical is it? Not very. It is hard to do, and you aren't going to find yourself being able doing it that often.

When the point of consistently placing top 3 was brought up, it didn't mean that it needs to be a certain player placing top 3, it means http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=165954 where MK has won more tournaments than almost any other character has placed top 8. That's hard proof. MK has roughly 35% (or so) of all the points in the ranking list, and that's from consistently placing in tournaments. As for melee only having top 5 chars played... that's a TON more appealing than mainly 1 character played, rather than the other 30-something. Sure, other characters are played as well, but that is becoming more thin as people give up and head to MK. And if MK get's banned, then half of the characters that ultimately were once un-viable because of MK would become more viable (by a domino effect). I don't mean only the other top tier characters. People would actually have an excuse to declare secondaries now that have an advantage over the other top tier characters. It would promote so much more variation, SSBB would become much more appealing.

Now I feel so bad for repeating ****.

 

[da K.I.D.]

Hey, wasn't Link banned in SC2? I mean, he could instantly oneshot anyone in the game if they let him get a soul charge off...

Still testing the Wario thing. Still I'm not sure on the criteria, I need a human player to try it on.

all system specific characters are banned, still are. thats why i cant play vader in an upcoming SC4 tourney

brawls physics engine is WAY different then melees, so i dont think any AT's were transferred...and even if theres a larger communities, 8 years >>>>>>>> half a year. you cant go banning a char with only half a year of experience. it jsut doesnt work

that is the only thing youve said that i actually have to think about. my (somewhat shoddy) responce to that is that tons of things have come out since release, but none of them have made MK any weaker, he still dominates to a level that should not be tolerated

Yoshi's second jump doesn't have SA frames, but has special SA frames like Snake's Cypher, a big hit like a smash or a gordo can knock him out of it.

CPU 9s becoming a real problem now, he can break out of it fairly well. I'm going to be hopeful and say my timing is off, but I dunno...

its called heavy armor, you can knock snake out of cypher, with any 1 hit that does more than 7% not sure about yoshi tho...

Enlighten me:
- which AT, mind linking the threads? (this applies to both Yoshi, and the Melee reference)

yes hes talking about the grabrelease CG that yoshi has on MK, the one that really doesnt do all that much damage and doesnt even make this match neutral.

also, what new melee AT i would like to see too

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

question

What criteria do you think is necessary to ban a character (ANY CHARACTER) in brawl?


1. Character has no counters or poor matchups
2. Character has no poor stages
3. Character has shown to do reliabily well in local tournaments across the US, taking at least one placement in the top 3 on a consistent basis.
4. Character wins a multitude of local tournaments across the US
5. Character has shown to do reliably well in national tournaments across the US, taking several of the spots in the top 8.
6. Character fits the previous criteria consistently at high levels of play for at least half a year
7. Character prevents a large majority (3/4) of the other characters from being played competitively
8. Character has a even matchup at worst with a large majority (3/4) of the highest ranking characters on the tier list
9. Character has no other characters in the game that share these qualities


All of this criteria must be met.



This is mine

*Agrees on criteria.*
*wonders why there's even still a debate*

With MK gone the metagame would shift and a new top chatrcter would arise. I hypothesize G&W honestly before marth... but even then, suddenly so many charcters become viable for tourney play. DDD drops a bit because his counters can ACTUALLY BE USED. Snakes counters also come out... wow. the game just wins +9000 points of balance.

 

[brinboy789]

Brinboy, would you shut the **** up already? You aren't refuting ****. All you are doing is finding an answer and trying to "refute", or in your case just spewing out a bunch of bull**** that is dancing around the issue. So what if Wario can CG MK (well, not really)?so what? so he can give MK a free at least 112%? thats alot. Yoshi also looks good against MK on paper. Enough to almost be considered neutral. But you know what? He still gets beat. Paper and reality are two different things. Yeah, Wario MAY be able to CG MK, but how practical is it? Not very. It is hard to do, and you aren't going to find yourself being able doing it that often.because how much high-level yoshis are there. ever heard of futile? hes an amazing wario, and ive never seen him lose to anybody except for DSF's SNAKE

When the point of consistently placing top 3 was brought up, it didn't mean that it needs to be a certain player placing top 3, it means http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=165954 where MK has won more tournaments than almost any other character has placed top 8. That's hard proof.yes. its hard proof that MK wins the majority of tournaments. so? fine me a MK player that isnt dojo and m2k that consisntently wins tourneys MK has roughly 35% (or so) of all the points in the ranking list,...don gimme that BS. just the top 5 is about double him, not to mention the rest of the brawl crew and that's from consistently placing in tournaments. As for melee only having top 5 chars played... that's a TON more appealing than mainly 1 character played, rather than the other 30-something. Sure, other characters are played as well, but that is becoming more thin as people give up and head to MK. And if MK get's banned, then half of the characters that ultimately were once un-viable because of MK would become more viable (by a domino effect). I don't mean only the other top tier characters. People would actually have an excuse to declare secondaries now that have an advantage over the other top tier characters. It would promote so much more variation, SSBB would become much more appealing.for the last time, PEOPLE EXCEPT FOR TIERWHORES ARE NOT SWITCHING TO MK. how much times did i say this?

Now I feel so bad for repeating ****.

alrighty then...dont gimme crap k. if ur gonna argue gimme facts. i don care how you feel about me.

 

[brinboy789]

*Agrees on criteria.*
*wonders why there's even still a debate*

With MK gone the metagame would shift and a new top chatrcter would arise. I hypothesize G&W honestly before marth... but even then, suddenly so many charcters become viable for tourney play. DDD drops a bit because his counters can ACTUALLY BE USED. Snakes counters also come out... wow. the game just wins +9000 points of balance.

look @ last page. or last 2 pages. i refuted every one of these. and these people are insulting me, but not refuting my point.

sorry for double post

 

[salaboB]

alrighty then...dont gimme crap k. if ur gonna argue gimme facts. i don care how you feel about me.

If you're going to argue, give us facts.

The Wario chaingrab isn't demonstrated to last until 112% against MK. The current testing is looking like 30% or so, which is nothing to be going crazy about. Wait until it's proven either way before you trot that out as proof of something.

The Yoshi chaingrab does not make the matchup even, the matchup chart is not accurate. When a high level Yoshi can beat MK half the time, then there will be proof it's an even matchup. If there are no high level Yoshis, there are no facts of this matchup and you can't really be using it as proof.

MK dominating in tournaments is a fact. People quitting competitive Brawl is a fact. Top level players picking up MK to fight MK is a fact. What facts do you have that make these things not something that needs dealing with?

 

[bigman40]

For the people talking about yoshi, his heavy armor frames are much stronger than Snake's (idk the amount it can take, but I've only seen Ness's Dair, and Ganon's Dair make him come out of it). Plus, the amount he can take vaires on the amount of damage Yoshi has. Also, he can DJ airdodge to have invincibility on his jump.

For the matchup, Yoshi can cancel out some of the moves MK has decently. the CG add little damage on early stocks, but it can be more potential further in the matches. When it comes to killing, Yoshi can CG then just release him to get in a free Usmash that's recovered from the stale move negation. It's still in MK's favor, but the matchup is fairly close to even.

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

stop posting this lol. i pwned them half of his points refer to tourney play

Well first off we are talking about banning MK in tournament play ofcourse half of the points are going to refer to them.

look @ last page. or last 2 pages. i refuted every one of these. and these people are insulting me, but not refuting my point.

sorry for double post

Stop being stupid and take your own advice everyone is telling you how your failing at refuting OS. Plus they refuted your pitiful attempt.

Also its funny how last night you said people switch to MK on laziness now its just because they are whores. Awesome logic right there.

 

[Steel]

question

What criteria do you think is necessary to ban a character (ANY CHARACTER) in brawl?


1. Character has no counters or poor matchups mk
2. Character has no poor stages mk
3. Character has shown to do reliabily well in local tournaments across the US, taking at least one placement in the top 3 on a consistent basis. mk
4. Character wins a multitude of local tournaments across the US mk
5. Character has shown to do reliably well in national tournaments across the US, taking several of the spots in the top 8. mk
6. Character fits the previous criteria consistently at high levels of play for at least half a year mk
7. Character prevents a large majority (3/4) of the other characters from being played competitively mk
8. Character has a even matchup at worst with a large majority (3/4) of the highest ranking characters on the tier list mk's "even" match ups are pretty debatable imo, could be more in his favor
9. Character has no other characters in the game that share these qualities mk


All of this criteria must be met.



This is mine

So like.... why is he still here again?

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

look @ last page. or last 2 pages. i refuted every one of these. and these people are insulting me, but not refuting my point.

sorry for double post

2 things:
a) just because you refuted does not mean you refuted to a satisfactory extent
b) it's not the individual criterion, it's the sum total of ALL the criteria together that makes MK ban worthy. and he is. He meets all of them and he alone does.

 

[Vulcan55]

Why the hell are all of you noobs taking Overswarms OPINION like it's an actual defined rule?

 

[brinboy789]

due to the amount of ignorance, im going to sum up ALL if my arguements in one psot. if you can refute all my points, and i cannot say anything, then i lose

1. the games metagame is NOT even close to being fully developed. a melee AT was discovered like a month ago. melees been out for...8 years? probably more. and yet still AT's are still to be discovered. and brawls physic engines are WAY different the melee, so no AT's were transferred. sure theres a larger community, but its 8 years >>>>>>>>>>>> half a year
2. If wario's CG works, then MK WILL have a bad matchup. NOBODY can argue that an one-mistake = 112% advantage can be good. and even if it doesnt work. most of his matchups at 60:40. thats very winnable.
3. somebody said something about no poor stages for MK. MK is a MELEE fighter. melee fighters generally dont have advantages/disadvantages on stages. MK's best stage is rainbow cruise because it focuses on aerial game, which is MK's bread on butter.
4. ahh, tourneys. MK dominates them. name one smasher that isnt M2K or Dojo that uses MK that consistently wins tourneys. if you cant, that means M2K and Dojo win the majority of MK wins, sprinkled with a minority of other MK players.

if you can refute all of these and i cant say anything, you win

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Why the hell are all of you noobs taking Overswarms OPINION like it's an actual defined rule?

1) is not n00b
2) because I AGREE with the opinion and he vocalized it better than I have been.
3) strength in numbers. if you agree with something then show it or your just a spectator on the sidelines.

why your "scholarly curiosity?"

 

[MorphedChaos]

For number 4, I could get good with MK in about 4 days and just mop all my local tournies and a regional if they pop up, That would show you how he just dominates, if you want?

 

[Overswarm]

"Oh here, let me make up some random bullshit criteria that no one has ever heard of and that no one else knows about, and make it perfectly fit the way Metaknight is right now."

Anyone can make up criteria for banning a character.
As it stands right now, nobody is going to be banned until the game has devolved into "play Metaknight or lose".
That is the way it has been accepted for years in the competitive gaming community.
Making up rules is exactly what scrubs do.
Making up ban criteria is no different.

Is there any criteria you think I should add or change to that list? I think it might be important for you to do so if you wish to disagree.

 

[da K.I.D.]

Brinboy, would you shut the **** up already? You aren't refuting ****. All you are doing is finding an answer and trying to "refute", or in your case just spewing out a bunch of bull**** that is dancing around the issue. So what if Wario can CG MK (well, not really)

so what? so he can give MK a free at least 112%? thats alot.
lol thats already been disproven.

Yoshi also looks good against MK on paper. Enough to almost be considered neutral. But you know what? He still gets beat. Paper and reality are two different things. Yeah, Wario MAY be able to CG MK, but how practical is it? Not very. It is hard to do, and you aren't going to find yourself being able doing it that often.

because how much high-level yoshis are there. ever heard of futile? hes an amazing wario, and ive never seen him lose to anybody except for DSF's SNAKE
AND DSF MAINS METAKNIGHT NOW!!!!
that, and the fact that theres plenty of high level yoshis, unfortunately bwett and shiri are the only ones i can think of


When the point of consistently placing top 3 was brought up, it didn't mean that it needs to be a certain player placing top 3, it means http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=165954 where MK has won more tournaments than almost any other character has placed top 8. That's hard proof.yes. its hard proof that MK wins the majority of tournaments. so?

fine me a MK player that isnt dojo and m2k that consisntently wins tourneys MK has roughly 35% (or so) of all the points in the ranking list,...don gimme that BS. just the top 5 is about double him,
ok, now you have to put up, show me the results of these multiple tourneys that youve won
think about this, MK has 35% of all tourney points, snake has about 20% in comparison, that leaves 45% to split between the other 37 characters in this game, if that doesnt make MK a dominant force your views are skewed.

not to mention the rest of the brawl crew and that's from consistently placing in tournaments. As for melee only having top 5 chars played... that's a TON more appealing than mainly 1 character played, rather than the other 30-something. Sure, other characters are played as well, but that is becoming more thin as people give up and head to MK. And if MK get's banned, then half of the characters that ultimately were once un-viable because of MK would become more viable (by a domino effect). I don't mean only the other top tier characters. People would actually have an excuse to declare secondaries now that have an advantage over the other top tier characters. It would promote so much more variation, SSBB would become much more appealing.for the last time,

PEOPLE EXCEPT FOR TIERWHORES ARE NOT SWITCHING TO MK. how much times did i say this?
lol, let em make this clear for you.
PEOPLE WHO WANT TO WIN WILL PLAY AND SWITCH TO METAKNIGHT.

Now I feel so bad for repeating ****.

once again, every thing you say is opinion or just straight up wrong, and no facts to suplement your claims