The Official "Should/Will Metaknight be banned?" Thread (LISTEN TO THE SBR PODCAST!)

[JackieRabbit5]

yeah i dunno if it would be possible to unban MK if he is banned b/c theres always gonna be the remnant anti-MK ppl who will complain if their opponent uses him and will resist the change back. So it will probably be either ban him permanently or not.

And my opinion is he shouldn't be banned at this point. A majority of this egocentric community just wants to ban that which makes them lose. I think it would be unfair to ban MK based on that. A better reason would be that he pretty much dominates tourneys and other chars don't stand much of a chance which can be argued. But i say let those who so choose to use him now and we'll just see how things play out.

 

[Ulevo]

What proof do you have of this? It's more like more people are winning tournaments right now with Metaknight than with any other character. That's the thing that is making people call him out for bans. There's plenty of mains of each character, it's just that MK is pretty easy to pick up and people are using him to win. Those people don't really win tournaments though, it's the MK mains that win tournaments.

Seriously, if anyone has problems with an MK secondary who is simply using him to win, you need to step up your game.

The ones who main him are dangerous. Bannable? JEEZ, not yet guys.

Part of the reason why he has so many tournament wins is because of his large player base. You can't deny that. Many tournaments consist of a majority of Meta Knight users, and the few of the many happen to rise to the top. That's just how it works.

 

[Veril]

You can't ignore that there's a mob mentality full of ignorance. Once again, it's all CONFIRMATION BIAS from people who believe "MK IS BROKEN, MK IS BROKEN!" and they scream it everywhere.

We can't have an all out vote from people who don't know squat about the current echelons of the metgame's matchups.

If anyone's gotta vote, it's gotta be the SBR.

I really don't like how MK dominates so thoroughly, so I am pro-ban. However I have to recognize that as a relatively mediocre player I don't have the understanding of the situation you might.

I've got a few questions since you are not one of the "mob"... hope you don't mind.

You've said you're against a MK ban. What would it take for you to change your mind? How many months would you want to wait before this vote would take place? What is the criterion you would use to determine the appropriateness of this ban?

Does your anti-ban position reflect your own inherent bias? (not meant as a hostile question)

There appear to be very strong arguments for banning MK with placement statistics to back them up (again, I'm not that great a player... but I am pre-law and know a good/bad argument when I see it).

If the "win at all costs" philosophy is followed and metaknight has the best basic qualities, and is considered the best in the game (I would completely agree with that) with no counters against him, why play anyone else?

There's a mystery chance (low, given how long we've had already) that a counter will be found against him. If one isn't found... would you support a ban then?

 

[Sesshomuronay]

MK makes people lose. People want to win not lose so they try to find a counter to MK. They find no way to counter MK except by out playing the opponent with MK so they end up using MK like a disease.

 

[AlexX]

So, why third from bottom or second from the bottom? Come on, there's no possible way MK is beaten by a large number of characters, we don't even have 1 true neutral match-up for him, a couple of 45-55s, but the rest are counters of some sort, MK's advantage. He is certainly not one of many plausable choices either.

A. A 6-4 advantage is not a counter, it's a slight advantage.

B. A 6-4 matchup is by no means unbeatable, despite how everyone is acting. If that were true Ike wouldn't have the tournament results he does (yes, believe it or not, he's NOT garbage despite having a 6-4 disadvantage against most of the cast).

C. No neutral matchups is a huge exaggeration. Just because you don't think they're neutral doesn't mean they aren't neutral.

 

[MorphedChaos]

The only counter to MK right now is MK, So more and more MK players arise due to wanting to beat MK, its like a plague, why don't some of you "higher ups" see or acknowledge this at least? Makes no sense you deny this theory outright with no forethought.

I don't mean all, but some.

Let me explain, Since MK is soo good, and can beat 98% of the cast by himself, and has no hard counters, godly recovery, and good KO moves that come out as fast or even faster then AAA attacks, the only counter to such a character is himself, and due to his ease of use, its the most logical choice, leading to an epidemic due to everyone wanting to counter the "MK guy" thus, his player base inflates to dangerous levels. If you ban him, very few people will be sorry to see him banned, and will play their mains since they no longer have to worry about MK.

(I know I missed points in there, but I've got one wicked migrane right now.)

 

[Shark Week]

A. A 6-4 advantage is not a counter, it's a slight advantage.

B. A 6-4 matchup is by no means unbeatable, despite how everyone is acting. If that were true Ike wouldn't have the tournament results he does (yes, believe it or not, he's NOT garbage despite having a 6-4 disadvantage against most of the cast) .

C. No neutral matchups is a huge exaggeration. Just because you don't think they're neutral doesn't mean they aren't neutral.

the community at large has decided that mk's worst matchup, barring a ditto, is 55:45 in mk's favor.

the only people debating this are the ones who don't want him banned, and your only argument is "you don't know for sure!" by that logic, even if metaknight was the most dominant character in history, we would never get anything done if we had to continue holding out for "one more day" until something "might change" with the metagame.

 

[brinboy789]

guys...MK DOESNT have amazing priority in his attacks. hes just so fast, his attacks rarely clash with another attack, and it looks ilke its outprioritized, but its not

 

[MorphedChaos]

the community at large has decided that mk's worst matchup, barring a ditto, is 55:45 in mk's favor.

the only people debating this are the ones who don't want him banned, and your only argument is "you don't know for sure!" by that logic, even if metaknight was the most dominant character in history, we would never get anything done if we had to continue holding out for "one more day" until something "might change" with the metagame.

quoted for truth. Unless something like 9/11 happens in the smash community, this'll go nowhere fast.

 

[AlexX]

the community at large has decided that mk's worst matchup, barring a ditto, is 55:45 in mk's favor.

Topic? I haven't seen those numbers except by people who want him banned, and most of them like to claim he 8-2's most of the cast.

Also please note that TGL managed to beat a few members of the MK boards. That's Samus vs MK, where MK is supposedly able to win no matter how good the Samus player is.

the only people debating this are the ones who don't want him banned, and your only argument is "you don't know for sure!" by that logic, even if metaknight was the most dominant character in history, we would never get anything done if we had to continue holding out for "one more day" until something "might change" with the metagame.

I didn't say "we don't know for sure", so please don't put words in my mouth.

I'm saying just because someone thinks a matchup is bad doesn't mean it is. 90% of the cast believes their character 7-3's Ike under the idea he's too slow and they don't see how he could possibly do well in the match. That doesn't mean it's true.

 

[Shark Week]

Topic? I haven't seen those numbers except by people who want him banned, and most of them like to claim he 8-2's most of the cast.

this is just lol. gross exaggeration.

Also please note that TGL managed to beat a few members of the MK boards. That's Samus vs MK, where MK is supposedly able to win no matter how good the Samus player is.

irrelevant. how well some random samus guy does against some random mk guys, and i assume this was done online, means nothing. i've beaten mk players as pokemon trainer and bowser.

I didn't say "we don't know for sure", so please don't put words in my mouth.

I'm saying just because someone thinks a match up is bad doesn't mean it is. 90% of the cast believes their character 7-3's Ike under the idea he's too slow and they don't see how he could possibly do well in the match. That doesn't mean it's true.

more gross exaggeration. that aside, you're correct, just because someone thinks a match up is bad doesn't mean it is. which begs the question, can we show that the match up is in fact a bad one? in metaknight's case, we have many large tournaments, and many more smaller ones, showing metaknight's across-the-board dominance. everyone agrees that metaknight's worst match up is neutral if you want to give it a little nudge to the benefit of the other character. if you are of the opinion that this isn't true, provide an example of a character that counters metaknight.

 

[Tenki]

guys...MK DOESNT have amazing priority in his attacks. hes just so fast, his attacks rarely clash with another attack, and it looks ilke its outprioritized, but its not

Let's take MK's aerials. He has pretty amazing range for his size. As you should know, there's no 'aerial priority' in the sense of clanging - it's purely outranging/outspeeding the opponent's attacks.

And his attacks are fast enough such that if you end up clanging with an opponent on the ground, you can probably hit your opponent first, anyway. Usually with something like D-smash, for the kill.

 

[Steeler]

irrelevant. how well some random samus guy does against some random mk guys, and i assume this was done online, means nothing. i've beaten mk players as pokemon trainer and bowser.

Pokemon Trainer Squirtle and Charizard actually do okay against Metaknight.

the OP is the best post i've ever seen on smashboards, and perfectly describes the situation right now.

except that apparently yoshi can be an mk counterpick.

 

[MorphedChaos]

The whole yoshi-MK counterpick thing is all on paper though, its been seen that MK still dominates Yoshi Anyway.

You are right though, Samurai Panda did say basically the situation in a nutshell, minus a detail here and there.

 

[Bluebottel]

You arent giving Iran nuclear missiles. You are talking about a banning a character from a kids party game so the game can be more competitive. There is NOTHING severe nor will there be any consequences from it.

And if a meteor would be about to smash into earth, that wouldnt matter either. If you were starving, you wouldnt care about Brawl.
Everything is relative. Any give situation/problem can be looked upon from a different point of view that makes it look like nothing.
Further more, if you dont really care, why are you here again?

OT: I wouldnt mind banning MK, just not now. Let it brew for a while. If nothing radical happens and MK fullfills the 'at-least-10-times-better-than-everything-else' rule THEN we ban.

 

[Master Raven]

OT: I wouldnt mind banning MK, just not now. Let it brew for a while. If nothing radical happens and MK fullfills the 'at-least-10-times-better-than-everything-else' rule THEN we ban.

I know I've already said something like that before but I think that is THE best way to word my opinion on this issue lol

 

[SamuraiPanda]

IMO there would be an explosion of G&W, who dominated the midwest scene for a long time (until anther came along and ***** everyone)

Naw, we've always had a ton of G&Ws, and Anther has been ****** us since day 1. In actuality, there are only 3 MK mains in the midwest that I know of who would be affected by banning him, so this whole debate is pretty weird to midwesters who don't keep up with the metagame.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Also, the only MK main from the WC, who regularily wins tourney is DSF, who can **** with pretty much every character...

 

[MK26]

o shi...theory:

Dont ban MK. Ban MK dittos. If player x picks MK player y cannot. y has the option to cp MK if he loses. If he pick MK, x cannot. if he doesnt, x still can.

I cant quite describe the logic behind this, it just...hit me. Discuss.

 

[HeroMystic]

o shi...theory:

Dont ban MK. Ban MK dittos.

That's funny, cause that actually makes sense.

 

[Y.b.M.]

I think It'll be stupid to Ban a Character Just because alot of people lose to him....I have went up against a MK and got my *** delivered to me on a silver platter. But I don't complain I just get better...If I can't beat him...then there's something I'm not doin right...If anything IC should be Banned cause once they grab you it's a wrap...but again if I change the way i play it'll be better....I can't stand MK and will not pick him just because he's difficult to defeat...I feel MK players are chumps...but as a true Brawler I will just get better....

 

[~ Gheb ~]

That's funny, cause that actually makes sense.

No it doesn't

 

[MorphedChaos]

o shi...theory:

Dont ban MK. Ban MK dittos. If player x picks MK player y cannot. y has the option to cp MK if he loses. If he pick MK, x cannot. if he doesnt, x still can.

I cant quite describe the logic behind this, it just...hit me. Discuss.

That makes a little bit of sense, but then that would still mean MK would dominate the rest of the roster, but I like that idea, it can have some merit.

 

[Swordplay]

In theory. If the scenario Panda laid out actually happens. And it could. Hell even I have considered this but I'm such a fan boy that I can't live without Link.

If this happens relatively early as it already is. Other characters meta games will stop evolving. We will never be able to explore brawl as deeply.

MK reminds me of sheik from melee. However shiek was eventually overtaken by fox and falco due to the mass amount of technical skill involved in melee. In melee, there were enough AT's and such where even if you played a mediocre character, you could overcome the powerful forces of top tier. That is not the case with MK in brawl. In brawl there isn't enough Techniques for good players to exploit to even come close to fighting on even ground with MK.

That is why shiek was never banned in Melee and why MK is a viable consideration for a ban in brawl.

Naw, we've always had a ton of G&Ws, and Anther has been ****** us since day 1. In actuality, there are only 3 MK mains in the midwest that I know of who would be affected by banning him, so this whole debate is pretty weird to midwesters who don't keep up with the metagame.

Ya the midwest metagame is weird. Just because I'm from the midwest, don't think I don't know what I'm talkin about though. However, 3 people affected in an entire region is not a lot. There are a lot more MK's in other regions. I feel for this reason many midwest people support the ban because it would impact the Midwest metagame the least which is why they are okay with it.

 

[Mmac]

Having a chain grab isn't enough to go even with MK, I'm sorry. I still think MK has the advantage.

No, of course not. If you think that Yoshi "Only has a Chaingrab", then you are a fool. He has ALOT more than that.

The MK vs Yoshi matchup follows this scenario way too close. On paper, Yoshi has a moveset that upright destroys metaknights. However, because of the brawl engine and yoshi’s lack of out of shield options. The matchup is in metaknights favor. The metaknight player does not have to attack in order to gain an edge. He can simply shield, spot dodge and grab his way to throw yoshi into the corner (ledge) and then dish out damage that way.

Except that entire paragraph is flawed because the "Corner" Tactic doesn't work on Yoshi. If you think that All MetaKnight has to do is Throw him off the ledge and intercept him all day, then you are completely mistaken, and don't really know the matchup at all. This isn't Street Fighter, and MetaKnight isn't Akuma

The whole yoshi-MK counterpick thing is all on paper though, its been seen that MK still dominates Yoshi Anyway.

Seen where exactly? You guys aren't trying that hard protecting MetaKnight's "Brokenness" you know.

 

[popsofctown]

I have a friend who tried the yoshi thing and it didn't work

 

[HeroMystic]

No it doesn't

Think about it for a moment. No MK dittos mean less MK secondaries to counter MK, meaning mains of other characters are forced to learn counters again MK.

Of course there's some realistic flaws, but it does make sense, no?

 

[MorphedChaos]

Ah, a few youtube vids I saw of the matchup, Not with you however, Mmac, so your proobly different.

 

[cman]

Think about it for a moment. No MK dittos mean less MK secondaries to counter MK, meaning mains of other characters are forced to learn counters again MK.

Of course there's some realistic flaws, but it does make sense, no?

What decides who has to change? RPS? Or do they both choose different characters? That would be rediculous. It has wayyy too many flaws to be considered.

 

[Master Raven]

The no MK ditto thing is so silly lol

 

[MorphedChaos]

Ah, how I see the no MK ditto rule is, NO ONE can start with MK, they can only use him as a CP, and only once, thats how I see it as.

 

[HeroMystic]

Hey, I'm just saying it make sense, not that it was viable. XD

 

[Mmac]

Ah, a few youtube vids I saw of the matchup, Not with you however, Mmac, so your proobly different.

You better not say "Ankoku vs. Scala", I'm not dealing with that again....


Also, you can't Counterpick MetaKnight with MetaKnight, It's impossible.

 

[da K.I.D.]

I think It'll be stupid to Ban a Character Just because alot of people lose to him....I have went up against a MK and got my *** delivered to me on a silver platter. If anything IC should be Banned cause once they grab you it's a wrap...but again if I change the way i play it'll be better....I can't stand MK and will not pick him just because he's difficult to defeat...I feel MK players are chumps...but as a true Brawler I will just get better....

this post is funny because he just basically word for word, described a soft ban.

 

[Hitaku]

I've been absent from the boards for a little while, but coming back to this sure is interesting. After reading over my post I've realized that I've repeated what others have said more than once lol. I apologize for this, but I really felt that I wanted to say it myself again. I'll suppose I'll start off by saying that I support the banning of Metaknight. In my opinion, Metaknight players are not players without skill, but to be completely honest I feel their character is. I, for one, am very tired of seeing simple spam get so high in tournaments. As Panda said on the first page, I've seen many good players begin to choose Metaknight as a secondary character for the sole purpose of beating him. After time he becomes their main due to the easy play/tournament success. Their previous character becomes their "friendlies main" or something to that effect. I understand that we will lose a portion of the player base if we were to ban Metaknight, and I'm sure no one wants that. At the same time, I personally believe it's worth those losses to keep our tournament scene free of the army of imbalance lol.

As some of you know, I main Sonic. I've learned to adapt to most characters in this game without feeling a disadvantage too heavily, but Metaknight on the other hand, is obviously a different story (Please note I'm not complaining about needing a second, I have many anyhow lol. =P). As others have said before me, Metaknight is honestly the only real answer to other Metaknights. That's what really gets to me. I don't like the idea of being forced to choose a character I have no interest in to progress through a Metaknight-dominated metagame.

The point that I'm really trying to make is this: yes, if we ban Metaknight we will lose some of the Metaknight player base. Many people that play this game don't simply love one character, they love the game itself. Because of that I'm sure most will choose a new character (or go back to their old character pre god mode). Why do some of you continue to support what's going to cause a one character tournament? Can you honestly deny how imbalanced he is at the moment? He isn't a character that takes any real practice or time to learn. All that's needed is simple concept of priority/spacing followed by a little muscle memory and you have what I call god tier. I'm personally willing to lose the few people that decide to quit if it provides us a more balanced/more original metagame to our tournaments.

He's right.

Do you really believe banning Meta Knight will go without consequences to the community as a whole? It will be severely damaging. As it stands now, more people use Meta Knight then any other character, and a large base of the meta game revolves around him because of this fact.

The only reason so many people main Metaknight is due to his high success/easy play. I would be willing to bet most Metaknights will simply go back to their previous main. I don't think it will be all that damaging really. Yes, the metagame as we know it will change with his removal, but is a flood of Metaknights really a metagame at all?

Those people don't really win tournaments though, it's the MK mains that win tournaments.

From my personal experience, after a little practice most people tend to place better with Metaknight than with their main. This generally causes a large number of them to start maining Metaknight. Now you have a new Metaknight mains. =/

 

[Mmac]

Anyone who says that "MetaKnights best counter is MetaKnight" is just complete bull****

I said it once before, and I'll say it again, you can't Counterpick MetaKnight with another MetaKnight. Because it's a ditto, it's completely determine on who can handle their character better. You could use him to Counterpick the Tornado happy scrub ones, but against MetaKnights that actually know what they are doing, you don't really stand a chance. Which characters that "Counter" MetaKnight (Diddy, DK, G&W, Yoshi, ect.), you stand a much better chance than trying to Ditto your way in. Who cares if they're only Neutral, they'll stand a better chance. Hell you could probably use a 4:6 and get better results!

Point is, if you main a character that gets destroyed by MetaKnight, actually take the time to find and train an efficient counter. Don't be Lazy and ditto your way through!

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Mmac, nobody does better against MK than MK, regardless of countering him or not (which is impossible JFYI)

 

[cutter]

Anyone who says that "MetaKnights best counter is MetaKnight" is just complete bull****

I said it once before, and I'll say it again, you can't Counterpick MetaKnight with another MetaKnight. Because it's a ditto, it's completely determine on who can handle their character better. You could use him to Counterpick the Tornado happy scrub ones, but against MetaKnights that actually know what they are doing, you don't really stand a chance. Which characters that "Counter" MetaKnight (Diddy, DK, G&W, Yoshi, ect.), you stand a much better chance than trying to Ditto your way in. Who cares if they're only Neutral, they'll stand a better chance. Hell you could probably use a 4:6 and get better results!

Point is, if you main a character that gets destroyed by MetaKnight, actually take the time to find and train an efficient counter. Don't be Lazy and ditto your way through!

What's the point of trying to learn a guaranteed 4:6 disadvantaged matchup to MK when you can just play him yourself and you have a true neutral matchup against MK? I'll take a neutral matchup against MK over a disadvantaged matchup against him any day of the week, and I think the rest of the community would agree.

MK has ZERO bad matchups and ONE neutral matchup... himself.

 

[Dark Sonic]

^^Well, 2 neutral matchups if you're really good with Yoshi. But unless you main Yoshi it's not something I'd rely on.

 

[Hitaku]

Anyone who says that "MetaKnights best counter is MetaKnight" is just complete bull****

I said it once before, and I'll say it again, you can't Counterpick MetaKnight with another MetaKnight. Because it's a ditto, it's completely determine on who can handle their character better.

Obviously you can't actually counter Metaknight with Metaknight...lol. You counter-pick him so that you are on an equal playing field. At the moment being on an equal footing is honestly the best you can do.

Point is, if you main a character that gets destroyed by MetaKnight, actually take the time to find and train an efficient counter. Don't be Lazy and ditto your way through!

G&W from my exp doesn't do amazing against him. Much better than some characters, but I would still feel much more comfortable with Metaknight himself. Diddy does well on FD against him, but I'm not sure he really can do much else. At least not enough to handle 3 matches. As for Yoshi I'll admit I have no idea really. I've yet to see a good Yoshi at a Brawl tournament. The point is, like others have said, you are trying to fight for a character with no negative match-ups.