The Official "Should/Will Metaknight be banned?" Thread (LISTEN TO THE SBR PODCAST!)

[Dark Sonic]

^^If they Yoshi is really good and you're on a stage where you can grab release stuff on him (luckily most of the neutrals), it's an even matchup. But I honestly don't think Yoshi is someone you can pickup and maintain as a secondary. He just requires too much work and you'd be better off just maining him and seconding someone for your bad matchups (which you can do, but was not your original goal).

I basically did the same thing with Sonic. I mained Marth, and wanted to second Sonic, but realized that Sonic takes more work to maintain. It's much more effective to simply main him and second Marth, since I'm unwilling to drop Sonic altogether. But Marth still has a 40-60 against Metaknight so...tough luck for me I guess.

 

[Mmac]

You guys are looking at it like because MetaKnight is even with himself. That is not the case at all. If you play against pure MetaKnight's, you'll never win by counterpicking with MetaKnight. Usually, because he's your secondary, you'll probably put in alot less work into his MetaKnight than him, and because Ditto's are completely determine by Player Skill, you'll never beat him.

At least the other characters factor in on how MetaKnight knows how to deal with him and his tactic's/movesets. Point is, he has god **** counters. Himself is not one of them!

Obviously you can't actually counter Metaknight with Metaknight...lol. You counter-pick him so that you are on an equal playing field. At the moment being on an equal footing is honestly the best you can do.

But is it really Equal Footing? Like I said, it's completely Skill based, and based on whoever can handle their character better. If you can put that much time and effort using MetaKnights to counter other MetaKnights, then you can put just as much effort into the other "Counters"

 

[Dark Sonic]

^^But if your Metaknight is only slightly worse than your main, you'd be better off going as Metaknight because...the matchup is completely determined by player skill (see what I did there?)

And seconding Metaknight has the bonus of covering all of your bad matchups, while also being an easy to maintain character (unlike Yoshi or Diddy which actually take practice, and whose matchups are stage specific (although Yoshi much less than Diddy)).

 

[Hitaku]

You guys are looking at it like because MetaKnight is even with himself. That is not the case at all. If you play against pure MetaKnight's, you'll never win by counterpicking with MetaKnight. Usually, because he's your secondary, you'll probably put in alot less work into his MetaKnight than him, and because Ditto's are completely determine by Player Skill, you'll never beat him.

At least the other characters factor in on how MetaKnight knows how to deal with him and his tactic's/movesets. Point is, he has god **** counters. Himself is not one of them!

No offense, but Metaknight doesn't take much to learn lol. Like I said in my last post, I'm not saying that people that main Metaknight have no skill. I'm just saying the character himself doesn't exactly take a rocket scientist to play. I understand that it will come down to skill, but unless you are going against some of the best players you will do fine with him as a second generally. Also keep in mind that even as a secondary, if you use him enough dedicated players will still put a lot of time into learning him.

 

[Sky`]

Maaybe somebody already said this but...
Here are some Instant "Problems" With banning Meta.

1. The Revolt of the current Metaknights: Using Nefarious plots, they will find ways to twist and turn words to cast shade on other characters. Making outrageous accusations that would condemn other characters, like the broken ness of GaW! =D
2. The Sheer Number of Metaknights: Well, lets face it. We're going to have those stubborn people who "If they can't have metaknight, they will have nobody!" So they will quit Brawl. Seems dumb, right? Well... Many more will quit than you think. Some people are only playing with a shred of hope for brawl. Banning MK is a big step in any respect. Some people will fall off the train due to the carelessness of this decision so early, some will fall off because they mained MK, and some will fall off... For a different reason. Which leads us to

3. The Ultimate Migration to Melee. I honestly believe that a Big mind set that would shift the fight between brawl and Melee, would be "OMG WELL THERE R NO CHRS BAND IN MELEE N IN BRAWL THUR R 1 CHAR BAND SEW MELE IS BETAR N I'M A GO PLAI EVERY1 WHO IZ OTRAGD *** WIT M3333333!"

But then again!
I'm a mumbling, overweight, babbling idiot, who has no idea what he is talking about. Proof.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ArHas4eozE

 

[cutter]

You guys are looking at it like because MetaKnight is even with himself. That is not the case at all. If you play against pure MetaKnight's, you'll never win by counterpicking with MetaKnight. Usually, because he's your secondary, you'll probably put in alot less work into his MetaKnight than him, and because Ditto's are completely determine by Player Skill, you'll never beat him.

Except MK's learning curve so little. It really does not take much to get good with him. I could abandon playing G&W right now and still do really well with MK since I DO second him.

At least the other characters factor in on how MetaKnight knows how to deal with him and his tactic's/movesets. Point is, he has god **** counters. Himself is not one of them!

G&W counters MK? Nope.
Yoshi? Nope.
Diddy? Nope.
DK? Sorry, no dice.

MK? He doesn't counter MK because it's a neutral matchup, but he comes as close as you can possibly get.

Do you even know what a "counter" is? An example of a counter is DDD > DK.

 

[ph00tbag]

I love how people pan the notion of banning MK saying it would be damaging to the metagame. I'm not saying it wouldn't, but they're clearly only looking at the argument from one side of the coin. The other side being that Metaknight being playable is clearly and heavily damaging the Metagame now. And this isn't just me blowing smoke. Several players at much higher levels have said it. SamuraiPanda pretty much said it in his first post. MK is absolutely the best choice for people who win tournaments as a habit, and these people are the brilliant minds who contribute to a character's metagame. These are the minds that are dropping an otherwise diverse cast for one character across the country. This is inherently damaging.

So it's a choice. Which is more damaging? A metagame without MK or with him? Don't try to argue that it's damaging either way, and therefore it should be the other way. That the metagame will suffer is true either way. The point of the argument is not to prove that one choice is damaging and one is not. The point is to prove that one is less so than the other.

Personally, unless someone can seriously find a consistent, effective way to counter MK other than MK, then I think that MK being a playable character is much more damaging than the effects of removing him. The fact is, no other character is as unparalleled as MK at the moment, and if that doesn't change, it's a problem. But who knows. Maybe among those few of us who refuse to give in, some enterprising soul will find some strategy or tactic that will change the way people play against MK. One can only hope. If that doesn't happen within the next year, or even six months... then I think everyone should seriously consider how banning him could ultimately benefit the metagame simply by damaging it less.

 

[Dark Sonic]

Soft counter example
Metaknight>Marth. This match is borderline even, but the Marth boards still tipped the match to Metaknight (pun completely intended)

Hard counter example
Marth>>Ness. This matchup was bad, but not too bad. And the grab release made it worse. You don't even need to use the infinite, just get a grab when Ness is at killing percents and chain into a free smash.


Metaknight has neither of these.

 

[HeroMystic]

Do you even know what a "counter" is? An example of a counter is DDD > DK.

Or Pikachu > Fox

...For sad reasons...

 

[Sky`]

Except MK's learning curve so little. It really does not take much to get good with him. I could abandon playing G&W right now and still do really well with MK since I DO second him.



G&W counters MK? Nope.
Yoshi? Nope.
Diddy? Nope.
DK? Sorry, no dice.

MK? He doesn't counter MK because it's a neutral matchup, but he comes as close as you can possibly get.

Do you even know what a "counter" is? An example of a counter is DDD > DK.

Oh.
I had thought that GaW was the only Neutral Matchup (well, except for a Ditto)...?

 

[Mmac]

Except MK's learning curve so little. It really does not take much to get good with him. I could abandon playing G&W right now and still do really well with MK since I DO second him.

But you are using him to trying to take out the same character that you are using against! Do you really think you can take on someone like M2K by besting him in MetaKnight dittos?!?

G&W counters MK? Nope.
Yoshi? Nope.
Diddy? Nope.
DK? Sorry, no dice.

Do you even know what a "counter" is? An example of a counter is DDD > DK.

Maybe instead of saying no, maybe you should post reasons on why. And Dedede vs. DK is like, 9:1? This is MetaKnight, you notice that I'm using "Counter" in quotations?

 

[Dark Sonic]

^If by counter you mean even matchup (which is hard to believe by any definition)


And I think G&W does worse when the Metaknight gets better (less mistakes to punish=less fun for G&W), kinda like Snake (but not nearly the same degree).

 

[Master Raven]

How actually well-explored are MK's allegedly more difficult matchups such as Snake/DK/Diddy/etc.? Everyone is seriously divided regarding those matchups.

 

[Hitaku]

"If they can't have metaknight, they will have nobody!" So they will quit Brawl. Seems dumb, right? Well... Many more will quit than you think.

On a similar but different note I've also known a good number of people who have stopped showing up to nearly as many tournaments because of the 100 Metaknight players. Sadly this has caused some of them to quit too. =( Either way, we are going to end up losing some ppl, why not make the tournament scene better in the process.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

But you are using him to trying to take out the same character that you are using against! Do you really think you can take on someone like M2K by besting him in MetaKnight dittos?!?

This is ridicoulus. You can't beat m2k either way unless you're NL or Reflex

 

[Sky`]

maaybe Somebody Already Said This But...
Here Are Some Instant "problems" With Banning Meta.

1. The Revolt Of The Current Metaknights: Using Nefarious Plots, They Will Find Ways To Twist And Turn Words To Cast Shade On Other Characters. Making Outrageous Accusations That Would Condemn Other Characters, Like The Broken Ness Of Gaw! =d
2. The Sheer Number Of Metaknights: Well, Lets Face It. We're Going To Have Those Stubborn People Who "if They Can't Have Metaknight, They Will Have Nobody!" So They Will Quit Brawl. Seems Dumb, Right? Well... Many More Will Quit Than You Think. Some People Are Only Playing With A Shred Of Hope For Brawl. Banning Mk Is A Big Step In Any Respect. Some People Will Fall Off The Train Due To The Carelessness Of This Decision So Early, Some Will Fall Off Because They Mained Mk, And Some Will Fall Off... For A Different Reason. Which Leads Us To

3. The Ultimate Migration To Melee. I Honestly Believe That A Big Mind Set That Would Shift The Fight Between Brawl And Melee, Would Be "omg Well There R No Chrs Band In Melee N In Brawl Thur R 1 Char Band Sew Mele Is Betar N I'm A Go Plai Every1 Who Iz Otragd *** Wit M3333333!"

But Then Again!
I'm A Mumbling, Overweight, Babbling Idiot, Who Has No Idea What He Is Talking About. Proof.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6arhas4eoze

It R Got Bottom Paged Plz Somebody Rip This To Shreds.

 

[Mmac]

I think you are missing the entire point, which is that you can't counterpick MetaKnight with MetaKnight.

 

[cutter]

Oh.
I had thought that GaW was the only Neutral Matchup (well, except for a Ditto)...?

I really think the G&W community should go back to discussing MK. It's been a long time since the matchup has been discussed and the overal matchup numbers are still in the air. I have a pretty big suspicion G&W does not go even against MK. MK more than likely has a slight advantage against G&W. xYz has been wrecking MKs down in Florida though.

But you are using him to trying to take out the same character that you are using against! Do you really think you can take on someone like M2K by besting him in MetaKnight dittos?!?

If I can't beat M2K with G&W, at least MK will give me a better chance. This is assuming I am equally skilled with both characters.

Maybe instead of saying no, maybe you should post reasons on why. And Dedede vs. DK is like, 9:1? This is MetaKnight, you notice that I'm using "Counter" in quotations?

...

 

[A-Tron]

spam din's fire lol

 

[Ulevo]

You know, I'm not going to refute any replies to this post, simply because I've done it too many times... But the major problem with a lot of this is that everyone has this false assumption that Meta Knight has no disadvantageous match ups. And it doesn't help that we have people going around claiming that characters like Yoshi, Sheik, and Zelda have the advantage when they clearly don't (and no, I don't care what you Yoshi mains say about that), and players should be focusing on the characters that actually can compete and have an edge on Meta Knight (G&W, Diddy Kong, Donkey Kong, Snake, Falco). Some people claim Meta Knight has no disadvantageous match ups, some people say he does... Even the ratios for those match ups differ from player to player and are almost never in stone. There is only one solid ratio I know of for Meta Knight, and that is the 4:6 match up of Marth vs Meta Knight. Why is that solid? Because the Marth boards know how to not john and keep their act together.

First off, stop stating Meta Knight is Meta Knights only neutral match up. We're trying to invoke intelligent discussion on the topic. Don't be the idiot that states the obvious. No **** Meta Knight is going to go neutral against another Meta Knight. That's what a ditto is. We don't want to hear what is already common sense.

Secondly, for those of you who seem to think that the only reason certain characters have an advantage in a match up against Meta Knight is because "the player is unfamiliar with the character", that is total hearsay and a complete and utter cop out. You could say that about any character, with any match up, with any player, with any circumstance. Do not use it as an argument simply to prove you can't beat Meta Knight. It doesn't hold proper grounds for an argument.

 

[Sky`]

You know, I'm not going to refute any replies to this post, simply because I've done it too many times... But the major problem with a lot of this is that everyone has this false assumption that Meta Knight has no disadvantageous match ups. And it doesn't help that we have people going around claiming that characters like Yoshi, Sheik, and Zelda have the advantage when they clearly don't (and no, I don't care what you Yoshi mains say about that), and players should be focusing on the characters that actually can compete and have an edge on Meta Knight (G&W, Diddy Kong, Donkey Kong, Snake, Falco).

First off, stop stating Meta Knight is Meta Knights only neutral match up. We're trying to invoke intelligent discussion on the topic. Don't be the idiot that states the obvious. No **** Meta Knight is going to go neutral against another Meta Knight. That's what a ditto is. We don't want to hear what is already common sense.

Secondly, for those of you who seem to think that the only reason certain characters have an advantage in a match up against Meta Knight is because "the player is unfamiliar with the character", that is total hearsay and a complete and utter cop out. You could say that about any character, with any match up, with any player, with any circumstance. Do not use it as an argument simply to prove you can't beat Meta Knight. It doesn't hold proper grounds for an argument.

Thank you Jesus.
Please bless me with your knowledge.

 

[Master Raven]

I love you Ulevo.

 

[Foxy]

players should be focusing on the characters that actually can compete and have an edge on Meta Knight (G&W, Diddy Kong, Donkey Kong, Snake, Falco).

Thanks for invalidating your whole argument.

 

[GofG]

You know, I'm not going to refute any replies to this post, simply because I've done it too many times... But the major problem with a lot of this is that everyone has this false assumption that Meta Knight has no disadvantageous match ups. And it doesn't help that we have people going around claiming that characters like Yoshi, Sheik, and Zelda have the advantage when they clearly don't (and no, I don't care what you Yoshi mains say about that), and players should be focusing on the characters that actually can compete and have an edge on Meta Knight (G&W, Diddy Kong, Donkey Kong, Snake, Falco). Some people claim Meta Knight has no disadvantageous match ups, some people say he does... Even the ratios for those match ups differ from player to player and are almost never in stone. There is only one solid ratio I know of for Meta Knight, and that is the 4:6 match up of Marth vs Meta Knight. Why is that solid? Because the Marth boards know how to not john and keep their act together.

First off, stop stating Meta Knight is Meta Knights only neutral match up. We're trying to invoke intelligent discussion on the topic. Don't be the idiot that states the obvious. No **** Meta Knight is going to go neutral against another Meta Knight. That's what a ditto is. We don't want to hear what is already common sense.

Secondly, for those of you who seem to think that the only reason certain characters have an advantage in a match up against Meta Knight is because "the player is unfamiliar with the character", that is total hearsay and a complete and utter cop out. You could say that about any character, with any match up, with any player, with any circumstance. Do not use it as an argument simply to prove you can't beat Meta Knight. It doesn't hold proper grounds for an argument.

A) Samurai Panda is the in the SBR and it is clear he believes that Metaknight has no disadvantageous matchups.

B) The SBR knows more about smash than you do.

C) Samurai Panda doesn't usually disagree with the SBR.

 

[Mmac]

And it doesn't help that we have people going around claiming that characters like Yoshi, Sheik, and Zelda have the advantage when they clearly don't (and no, I don't care what you Yoshi mains say about that)

How does Yoshi "Clearly doesn't" have a solid footing on MetaKnight? I've been posting nothing but legitimate facts when posting reasons on why in the MetaKnight boards. I can post several Reasons.

1. MetaKnight has a hard time getting a direct approach
2. MetaKnight is one of the easier characters to pivot grab
3. Yoshi and MetaKnight match well in the air
4. MetaKnight's poor airspeed makes it difficult for edgeguarding against Yoshi, one of his key characteristics
5. He can Chaingrab
6. He can combo out of grab release
7. He can kill as low as 50% from Grab Releases and can has plenty of kill options from 120%
8. Has plenty of options to deal with the tornado
9. He has advantages on half the Neutral/Semi-Neutral stages
10. He has plenty of Hard Counterpick stages where it makes it impossible for MetaKnight to win on against Yoshi.
11. He has a projectile
12. Yoshi is Cuter

Your telling people to discuss intelligently and find actual counters, but at the same time you are bashing them. this is hypocritical

 

[GofG]

In Melee, ness could easily get 70%+ on Fox with upthrow to utilt to uair's. It was unavoidable if the Ness could read the Fox correctly.

Ness still sucked ***.

 

[Sky`]

A) Samurai Panda is the in the SBR and it is clear he believes that Metaknight has no disadvantageous matchups.

B) The SBR knows more about smash than you do.

C) Samurai Panda doesn't usually disagree with the SBR.

There you are God. I thought you'd never get here.

Can you go back a page and Rip apart my argument? It's quoted by me, you can't miss it. =]

 

[Flayl]

Why are people applauding Ulevo for saying "people should try countering MK with characters that are already well known to lose against him and not try anything new"

 

[Mmac]

In Melee, ness could easily get 70%+ on Fox with upthrow to utilt to uair's. It was unavoidable if the Ness could read the Fox correctly.

Ness still sucked ***.

So just one combo from a completely different game justifies that my opinions are flawed?

 

[MorphedChaos]

OK, I think I might wanna throw some of my tourny expirinace in my area out there. 30 people went to a local tournament that was hosted by EB games last week, There were 3 D3s, 1 DK, 2 Snakes, 1 G&W, 1 Yoshi, 1 Falco, and 21 MetaKnights, and the DK counterpicked Meta when he fought my D3, same for the snakes, I still won, but still, Look at how many MK's there were, thats telling you that SOMETHING is up.

 

[cutter]

Thank you Jesus.
Please bless me with your knowledge.

There you are God. I thought you'd never get here.

Can you go back a page and Rip apart my argument? It's quoted by me, you can't miss it. =]

What to make of that? hmmm...

 

[Mmac]

OK, I think I might wanna throw some of my tourny expirinace in my area out there. 30 people went to a local tournament that was hosted by EB games last week, There were 3 D3s, 1 DK, 2 Snakes, 1 G&W, 1 Yoshi, 1 Falco, and 21 MetaKnights, and the DK counterpicked Meta when he fought my D3, same for the snakes, I still won, but still, Look at how many MK's there were, thats telling you that SOMETHING is up.

Was the Yoshi good and not pared with the G&W? also preferably knew how to 0-Death Falco?

Why are people applauding Ulevo for saying "people should try countering MK with characters that are already well known to lose against him and not try anything new"

I dunno, but I don't like how he bashing the only character that could actually possibly counter him, but I do agree that people should stop using MetaKnight to counter other MetaKnight

 

[Sky`]

What to make of that? hmmm...

One was Sarcasm, the other was super srs?

>_>

/10mysterys.

 

[cutter]

Was the Yoshi good and not pared with the G&W? also preferably knew how to 0-Death Falco?



I dunno, but I don't like how he bashing the only character that could actually possibly counter him

1 Yoshi = 3.33% chance of winning.
21 Metaknights = 70% of winning.

You do the math.

One was Sarcasm, the other was super srs?

>_>

/10mysterys.

Sarcasm tags next time please.

 

[Foxy]

So just one combo from a completely different game justifies that my opinions are flawed?

No, but he's pointing out that Yoshi is a character that has mostly theoretical advantages over MK when you look at the matchup, in light of his release combos and other things.

However, were a top Yoshi to play a top MK, the Yoshi would just not have enough options to outspace and outplay the MK. I admit that this may not be the case, as no great Yoshis have really gone and destroyed MKs, but it's the pattern that a lot of these discussions follow.

"Hey! Yoshi has a grab-release cg on MK! That helps the matchup!"
"Wow, it also leads into spikes on bad players and guaranteed usmashes! Yoshi totally can beat MK!"
"Hey, he's got projectiles too and faster aerial movement speed! He destroys MK!"

Well, sometimes people get a bit excited and forget all of their opponents strengths as well. I'd like to see a good Yoshi try to prove their matchup advantage but it's unlikely to happen.

 

[Vulcan55]

Good god, this thread again?

 

[Ulevo]

Thanks for invalidating your whole argument.

I supported my statement with my own opinion, which clearly clashes with yours. Thanks for contributing nothing productive.

A) Samurai Panda is the in the SBR and it is clear he believes that Metaknight has no disadvantageous matchups.

B) The SBR knows more about smash than you do.

C) Samurai Panda doesn't usually disagree with the SBR.

Are you done sucking up to SamuraiPanda?

One person with one opinion does not close a topic because that one opinion is completely correct, simply because he expresses what he believes. I don't care how much status he has, it doesn't work that way. He is obviously an intelligent poster, board member and moderator, but your point on referencing him is just as bad as saying Mario beats Meta Knight because M2K states so. (Yes M2K, I know you'd never state that. It's an example. )

I also never claimed I knew more than the SBR. Returning to the relevant topic.

Why are people applauding Ulevo for saying "people should try countering MK with characters that are already well known to lose against him and not try anything new"

Because people usually like it when common sense is addressed to a majority that really can't use their own two eyes and look in front of them for an answer that is already present?

That was just a guess. I thought it sounded smart, so I typed it down to get more applauds.

 

[cutter]

The fact MK has ridiculous frame advantages all across the board and disjointed hitboxes is the reason why he has the majority of advantages he has.

 

[Dark Sonic]

I really think the G&W community should go back to discussing MK. It's been a long time since the matchup has been discussed and the overal matchup numbers are still in the air. I have a pretty big suspicion G&W does not go even against MK. MK more than likely has a slight advantage against G&W. xYz has been wrecking MKs down in Florida though.

xYz is just beast in general.

And people should really stop bashing Yoshi. He really does have an even matchup with Metaknight. It's his learning curve/other hard matchups that will be holding him down.

Sadly (and I'm repeating myself now), I don't think Yoshi is a character that you can just secondary. His learning curve is just too steep and by the time you're sufficiently good with him to make the metaknight matchup...even, you'll find that your main is not doing so hot. At the same time you could just pick up Metaknight and instantly get an even matchup, with the only difference being player skill.

 

[Sesshomuronay]

Wow this thread sure is popular, its almost at 200 posts already.