The Official "Should/Will Metaknight be banned?" Thread (LISTEN TO THE SBR PODCAST!)

[ShadowLink84]

This is true, I wrote an essay on this subject.

Random fact: The same people win Rock-Paper-Scissors tourneys consistantly.

Link to essay now!

 

[JesiahTEG]

I went and found this, because it was one of M2K's posts on which I base my belief that MK's dtilt can be more effective vs. Snake than people are giving it credit for:

The reason this is a problem is easy: By the frame data, M2K either screwed something up or is not telling us the whole story. So there is a bias involved on his part in making this seem like what Snake will always do. Let's take it apart a bit more.

He says he's spaced dtilts on Snake. That means he should be out of range of the first hit of Snake's ftilt. We have gone over the frame data, and after MK dtilts Snake does not have the range to hit back with the first hit of his ftilt. This means before he gets hit, MK has time to do a second dtilt, an ftilt (Because the first of Snake's ftilt should have carried him forward into range of this and it's just as fast activating as MK's dtilt), or simply shield the second hit of Snake's ftilt -- but M2K says "before I knew what was happening." So he either wasn't actually spaced even though he said he was and got hit by Snake's first ftilt hit, or he's exaggerating the speed it happened and most likely was just unprepared for this response.

This is where theorycrafting is valuable, because in the heat of battle without having practiced for a situation things can often seem unanswerable; in reality some of them can be dealt with if you're already prepared for the possibilities and acting based on what your opponent can do.

And from the same post, he's saying if MK tries to ftilt from too close to Snake, then any mistiming will punish MK. The easy answer is that MK must be as patient as Snake in this matchup and only engage when he has set up the spacing he needs, and not use ftilt when he should be using dtilt. But note the bias here, MK is using a shorter range attack than he has available, and M2K is still saying if he is perfect in his timing he can hit Snake first -- shouldn't this end up more strongly in favor of MK, not a point against him?

Ok, this is what's bothering me a lot. I don't know what you or other new people are trying to do, nor do I know what your motives are...But you all quote M2K and try to prove him wrong. Fact is, you can give me all of your frame data that you want, as many stats too. If M2K says that he got hit by Snake's Ftilt in between his F/Dtilt, he's NOT lying. He has no reason to lie, and although your stats suggest something different, if the best player in the world got hit by it, that means everyone else can and will at some point or another. I'm not dickriding him either, I'm using simple logic. Not to mention, he's a good friend of mine and I know he wouldn't lie. Maybe rather than using stats to prove your arguments, you should look at the "whys" of why M2K got hit by that Ftilt, because there is a reason.

 

[NinjaLink]

I used to use mk vs snake in the past when ppl had the snake problem. When snake does the first hit, he lifts his knee up meaning the dtilt wont even hit his front leg. It'll miss. Then snake does the second one and if ur arent blocking...........get *****...

 

[salaboB]

Ok, this is what's bothering me a lot. I don't know what you or other new people are trying to do, nor do I know what your motives are...But you all quote M2K and try to prove him wrong. Fact is, you can give me all of your frame data that you want, as many stats too. If M2K says that he got hit by Snake's Ftilt in between his F/Dtilt, he's NOT lying. He has no reason to lie, and although your stats suggest something different, if the best player in the world got hit by it, that means everyone else can and will at some point or another. I'm not dickriding him either, I'm using simple logic. Not to mention, he's a good friend of mine and I know he wouldn't lie. Maybe rather than using stats to prove your arguments, you should look at the "whys" of why M2K got hit by that Ftilt, because there is a reason.

I kinda explained this: If in the heat of competition you don't realize exactly what is going on, something can seem unbeatable. If M2K didn't spend a while practicing dtilt pressure against Snake and learning exactly how the ftilt response looked like and could be dealt with, it could very well seem instant -- "Before I knew what had happened" does not mean it is beyond the realm of human reflexes, it means he was not watching for the exact speed that Snake could react at.

He has said he doesn't practice much outside of tournaments, I don't see any reason he should have picked up the knowledge of exactly how fast Snake's ftilt is and what MK can do about it -- he'll tend to be extremely good with what obviously works and can be made to work with excellent timing, that doesn't mean he's instantly good with what you have to derive from frame data.

Explain to me why it's possible that what he said is entirely true and accurate (That he couldn't respond to it), given the actual mechanics of the game. Because unless you can, I'm going with human perception error.

I used to use mk vs snake in the past when ppl had the snake problem. When snake does the first hit, he lifts his knee up meaning the dtilt wont even hit his front leg. It'll miss. Then snake does the second one and if ur arent blocking...........get *****...

So you ... block ? Or ftilt yourself (So it lands after his ftilt's first hit but before the second hit), which should hit Snake. That would mean dtilt -> ftilt if he begins his ftilt is what would be safest. Can this work?

However, if blocking is too slow then you have indeed provided a reason the experience might be valid given the game's data -- something neither Inui nor M2K has ever managed to do. Can we get more analysis on this?

 

[NinjaLink]

From what i remember i dont believe u can block being u'll still be in the dtilt animation while snake can just go along into his second hit. MKs ftilt i 'think' can hit snakes ftilt(first hit) being its more in the air. I'll test later.

 

[Justblaze647]

NL... Your sig is soooo ridiculous!

^_^

 

[Ulevo]

Ok, this is what's bothering me a lot. I don't know what you or other new people are trying to do, nor do I know what your motives are...But you all quote M2K and try to prove him wrong. Fact is, you can give me all of your frame data that you want, as many stats too. If M2K says that he got hit by Snake's Ftilt in between his F/Dtilt, he's NOT lying. He has no reason to lie, and although your stats suggest something different, if the best player in the world got hit by it, that means everyone else can and will at some point or another. I'm not dickriding him either, I'm using simple logic. Not to mention, he's a good friend of mine and I know he wouldn't lie. Maybe rather than using stats to prove your arguments, you should look at the "whys" of why M2K got hit by that Ftilt, because there is a reason.

This.

This whole debate has become really aggravating. Any points brought up in favor of not banning Meta Knight either end with personal discrediting claims to disprove points, or just random dreck that makes no **** sense.

 

[ShadowLink84]

wait what/
You would prefer to tae the word of a player over actual fact jesiah?
thats just seceding to authority.

just because m2k states he got hit doesn't automatically mean it is factual.

The people who are most knowledgeable on a character aren't always the best and the best aren't always the most knowledgeable.

M2k isn't lying. It would be pointless to do so, however that doesn't make what he says isn't any more factual than actual fact.

If the frame data and range of MK's Dtilt show this situation then obviously something else is going on other than the situation at hand.

 

[Master Raven]

Is Dtilt the new whorenado? >_>

 

[Genome Squirrel]

Is Dtilt the new whorenado? >_>

personally, i would like a thread dedicated to getting around mk's dtilt
and then about 30 more on how to beat all his other moves

 

[adumbrodeus]

Ok, this is what's bothering me a lot. I don't know what you or other new people are trying to do, nor do I know what your motives are...But you all quote M2K and try to prove him wrong. Fact is, you can give me all of your frame data that you want, as many stats too. If M2K says that he got hit by Snake's Ftilt in between his F/Dtilt, he's NOT lying. He has no reason to lie, and although your stats suggest something different, if the best player in the world got hit by it, that means everyone else can and will at some point or another. I'm not dickriding him either, I'm using simple logic. Not to mention, he's a good friend of mine and I know he wouldn't lie. Maybe rather than using stats to prove your arguments, you should look at the "whys" of why M2K got hit by that Ftilt, because there is a reason.

How about mis-remembers?

Dtilt HAS knockback, either he misremembers, or it was actually a phantom hit (which means he did mispace), or something of that nature.


And I do not doubt people will get hit by it, it's merely a signifigant mistake.

This.

This whole debate has become really aggravating. Any points brought up in favor of not banning Meta Knight either end with personal discrediting claims to disprove points, or just random dreck that makes no **** sense.

...

Wait, personal accounts over ACTUAL TESTED DATA.

And you might want to note that both people bringing this up are part of the "too soon to ban MK" group (myself and Link), whereas we both generally disagree with salaboB a considerable amount of the time.

This is not about getting MK banned, this is about ACCURATE match-ups.

From what i remember i dont believe u can block being u'll still be in the dtilt animation while snake can just go along into his second hit. MKs ftilt i 'think' can hit snakes ftilt(first hit) being its more in the air. I'll test later.

Yes, he is, HOWEVER, MK's IASA frames kick in at 15 (hitbox from 3-7), which is signifigantly before Snake's second hitbox can come out on reaction.

Frame data is on this thread somewhere.


So, while the move is longer then the time it takes for Snake's second hit to come out, the fact that he can cancel it into shield, or a second dtilt, or something before Snake can get the second hit out is all that really matters.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Is Dtilt the new whorenado? >_>

Not really. He doesn't spin when using it for one.
XD

 

[Tenki]

I asked hotgarbage to test D-tilt.

From the moment he hits your shield with D-tilt:
Assuming you release shield ASAP (7 frames to drop shield [?]), you have 4 frames after release before MK can do anything >_>

And that's not counting grabs, or jumping to cancel shield.

 

[ShadowLink84]

I asked hotgarbage to test D-tilt.

From the moment he hits your shield with D-tilt:
Assuming you release shield ASAP (7 frames to drop shield [?]), you have 4 frames after release before MK can do anything >_>

And that's not counting grabs, or jumping to cancel shield.

Which means snake can't do much other than drop a grenade.


Snake
Jab: 3 (too little range)
Forward Tilt: 4 , 18 (second hit has the hitbox on frame 18 which is too slow)
Up Tilt: 6 (has the range but is too slow)
Down Tilt: 69has the range but again, is too slow)
Dash Attack: 5 (too slow)
Up Smash: 11
Down Smash: ???
Up Smash: 41
Forward B: 44
Neutral B: 1 frame.
Down B: 15 to Release (Air 16)
Up B: ???
Forward Air: 23
Back Air: 7
Down Air: 3
Up Air: 10
Neutral Air: 10

Mk's Dtilt= 3

Not sure about Snake's grabs but I now or sure he doesn't have the range to them he needs.

Snake does have moves that can be used within that 4 frame moment. Only problem is that they don't have the required range to counter MK.

 

[NinjaLink]

Snakes grab i believe is 8 frames if not 8 its 7

 

[DerpDaBerp]

When the discussion about banning MK becomes about how to contest a SINGLE move of his, it's easy to see how intolerable MK is becoming.

 

[MorphedChaos]

Podcast convinced me even more MK needs to be banned. Not to mention after I listened to te whole thing, my MK became 8x better >.> Now I can survive upto 200% with him due to the whole Uair to jump tech... And my MK is 4 hours old...

 

[ShadowLink84]

uair~jump?

 

[Tenki]

uair~jump?

U-air is MK's fastest aerial.
You can even double jump faster if you spam U-air as you do it, I think lol.

Snake
Jab: 3 (too little range)
Forward Tilt: 4 , 18 (second hit has the hitbox on frame 18 which is too slow)

Mk's Dtilt= 3

Not sure about Snake's grabs but I now or sure he doesn't have the range to them he needs.

Snake does have moves that can be used within that 4 frame moment. Only problem is that they don't have the required range to counter MK.

Snake's F-tilt is 4.

Are you suggesting that if MK spams D-tilt and Snake shields+releases immediately, he cannot hit MK as MK continually spams D-tilt?

 

[MorphedChaos]

uair~jump?

Yes, if you use it for MK, it stops ALL momentum, I can survive snake Utilts til 140% sometimes with it too.

 

[Justblaze647]

Podcast convinced me even more MK needs to be banned. Not to mention after I listened to te whole thing, my MK became 8x better >.> Now I can survive upto 200% with him due to the whole Uair to jump tech... And my MK is 4 hours old...

ROFLMAO!

 

[Inui]

The problem with saying this is that it still admits MK has the theoretical edge -- if he plays flawlessly.

Marth is theoretically the best character because he has a 1 frame move that beats everything. Nobody cares about this because it's not reality and you'd have to surpass human limits.

The fact that MK has to make more mistakes then Snake to lose is what DEFINES an advantagious match-up.

No, it really doesn't. MK is punished much more severely for his mistakes and trades are always in favour in Snake. That's a lot more advantageous to me than having to play super safe and campy and frame-perfect in order to have an advantage.

If you powershield anything, it takes 1 frame to act out of your shield IIRC. Snake can powershield the d-tilt and punish it. Also, what NinjaLink said was true.

I find it EXTREMELY amusing that multiple top players and highly experienced tournament goers, such as Mew2King, myself, NinjaLink, and Jesiah have come in here saying Snake wins the match and have given good reasons, and the people disagreeing are all players I've never heard of. Fun fact.

 

[rehab]

What..

what is this about MK living to 200%?

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

Marth is theoretically the best character because he has a 1 frame move that beats everything. Nobody cares about this because it's not reality and you'd have to surpass human limits.

Wait... Counter?

GRAB! lol but yeah your point stands.


And Rehab. In the Podcast discussing MK's banning it was mentioned that a Snake uaired a MK and lived at 200 percent.

 

[NinjaLink]

Yea. Basically MK has to play WAAAY more careful than cnake does. Snakes 'grenade armor' forces MK to take different approachs. He can only grab without gettin blown up but snake is gonna kno that so he can roll or do my 'Charge cancel' maneuvers. The charge cancel hasnt caught on yet. Basically in snakes case, Snake can hold a grenade and instantly do an aerial WHILE holding it. Its hard to learn but its possible.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=20h488IePbA

This vid shows lucario but all characters that can charge B moves can do this except shiek, dk and ike(obviously). Snake can do this but hes also the hardest char to do the aerial one with.

@ Terios - No his up-b. Counter is frame 4.

 

[brinboy789]

What..

what is this about MK living to 200%?

its possible, but it requires the IDC, which is banned, so...yea

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

The IDC doesn't have anything to do with surviving anything. It was Smash DI plus interrupting the momentum with an uair letting MK gain control more quickly.

 

[Inui]

Wait... Counter?

GRAB! lol but yeah your point stands.


And Rehab. In the Podcast discussing MK's banning it was mentioned that a Snake uaired a MK and lived at 200 percent.

Dolphin Slash.


Random nonsense can happen in Brawl. The u-air may have been diminished and/or the weakest possible point and time hit the MK.


Btw, MK's only option vs Snake when he's dropping grenades is u-throw. Literally everything else makes MK blow up. Because of this, the Snake player will always predict that MK will either camp more or u-throw.

 

[salaboB]

Marth is theoretically the best character because he has a 1 frame move that beats everything. Nobody cares about this because it's not reality and you'd have to surpass human limits.

Unfortunately, you haven't proven that spacing properly with MK to pressure anyone trying to camp him is beyond human limits.

All I've seen is that it's currently beyond human patience as by all reports it involves a lot of resetting until your opponent messes up.

Btw, MK's only option vs Snake when he's dropping grenades is u-throw. Literally everything else makes MK blow up. Because of this, the Snake player will always predict that MK will either camp more or u-throw.

We have been over why dtilt works. Why don't you tell us why it can't be used against Snake after he's just dropped a grenade?

 

[brinboy789]

The IDC doesn't have anything to do with surviving anything. It was Smash DI plus interrupting the momentum with an uair letting MK gain control more quickly.

wasnt there a thread about MK using the IDC to live to ridiculous percents? but IDC is banned anyway...

 

[salaboB]

wasnt there a thread about MK using the IDC to live to ridiculous percents? but IDC is banned anyway...

If you use the IDC, you're not getting hit. If you're getting hit, you're not using the IDC. Whatever you're thinking of, it's not the IDC.

 

[brinboy789]

If you use the IDC, you're not getting hit. If you're getting hit, you're not using the IDC. Whatever you're thinking of, it's not the IDC.

no like, if you get hit up, and since theres so little hitstun in brawl, you use IDC immediately, and get all the way down safely...i think thats what the thread said.

 

[salaboB]

no like, if you get hit up, and since theres so little hitstun in brawl, you use IDC immediately, and get all the way down safely...i think thats what the thread said.

I'm pretty sure that the IDC only works if you impact the ground while teleporting.

You may mean DC. Adding I to it changes things entirely.

 

[brinboy789]

The IDC only works if you impact the ground while teleporting.

You may mean DC. Adding I to it changes things entirely.

if your in the air, and you use it, then you fall. i think.

 

[Mew2King]

dude i tried that **** and it doesn't work. I wish lol

 

[Tenki]

its possible, but it requires the IDC, which is banned, so...yea

I'm pretty sure they weren't talking about that. More like using U-air and double jump to break momentum lol.

Anyway, since I cbf'd to wait for shadowlink to fall into my trap,

I asked hotgarbage to test D-tilt.

From the moment he hits your shield with D-tilt:
Assuming you release shield ASAP (7 frames to drop shield [?]), you have 4 frames after release before MK can do anything >_>

And that's not counting grabs, or jumping to cancel shield.

Which means snake can't do much other than drop a grenade.


Snake
Jab: 3 (too little range)
Forward Tilt: 4 , 18 (second hit has the hitbox on frame 18 which is too slow)

...

Mk's Dtilt= 3

Not sure about Snake's grabs but I now or sure he doesn't have the range to them he needs.

Snake does have moves that can be used within that 4 frame moment. Only problem is that they don't have the required range to counter MK.

Snake's F-tilt is 4.

Are you suggesting that if MK spams D-tilt and Snake shields+releases immediately, he cannot hit MK as MK continually spams D-tilt?

Anyway, here's basically what I was trying to get across:
If hotgarbage's data is correct and that you have 4 frames after shielding a D-tilt (immediately), then Snake's F-tilt should be able to hit MK during his ending lag.

And regardless, if MK uses any move, especially another D-tilt, not named shield or spotdodge, Snake should be able to catch him in startup lag.

So in the situation that MK d-tilts a shielding Snake:
taking into account hotgarbage's data:
D-tilt lasts 15 frames. Hit on frame 3.
Frame:
1
2
3 MK's D-tilt hits Snake's shield
4 Snake begins to release shield.
5
6
7
8
9
10
11 Shield is released
12 Snake F-tilt begins
13
14
15 ------------ MK is free (?) or in ending lag. Let's assume MK is free. MK starts D-tilt. Snake F-tilt connects.
16
17 MK's second D-tilt would make contact.
18

Meh, who knows. Maybe his D-tilt has more shield stun than 1 frame. This is only a demonstrational example. Whether or not you want to accept these numbers or JimboCav's numbers is up to you, but here's the point:

Alot of this 'frame data' war is based on startup lag only, or ending lag only. If you take into account both, it might actually be more than you'd think.

I think the main problem with most people and MK's matchup is they wait too long to release shield. I wasn't aware that after shielding tornado, it was possible to run up to and punish him with faster characters. And then I saw a video and realized that you have to release shield as soon as you can, then run after and try to punish. Same thing with Shuttle loop. If you manage to shield the rise, you have to jump ASAP and throw out a quick aerial to counter it.

 

[salaboB]

if your in the air, and you use it, then you fall. i think.

If you DC, then you fall, then you're not doing the IDC. I stands for Infinite, and means you must be able to continuously be cloaked. Thus if you use it then fall, you're not staying cloaked and it's not the IDC. You might want to learn the proper labels for things before accepting other people using them.

And regardless, if MK uses any move, especially another D-tilt, not named shield or spotdodge, Snake should be able to catch him in startup lag.

The point is the first hit of Snake's ftilt is outreached by MK's dtilt, so all the dtilt has to do is arrive before the second hit of Snake's ftilt. And the second dtilt hit can arrive before anything else Snake can do offensively, other than pull a grenade.

Nobody said that the first hit of Snake's ftilt didn't hit before MK could dtilt -- because it doesn't matter.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Snake's F-tilt is 4.

Are you suggesting that if MK spams D-tilt and Snake shields+releases immediately, he cannot hit MK as MK continually spams D-tilt?

The Ftilt (first hit) comes out on frame 4. however the range on the first hit of the Ftilt is outranged by the Dtilt. So Snake is forced to use the second part of his Ftilt if he is going to hit MK with it which comes out on frame 18. I mentioned this earlier Tenki.

Its not that Snake isn't capable of using the Ftilt during that frame, its the fact that when he does use it he is forced to go into the second part of the Ftilt because he lacks the range necessary to land the Ftilt.

As for shield stun am not entirely sure. I now its above 1 frame not exactly sure on it.

Marth is theoretically the best character because he has a 1 frame move that beats everything. Nobody cares about this because it's not reality and you'd have to surpass human limits.

I was thinking in melee my error.

Marth does have a 1 frame move but guess what? So does pikachu and Lucas. Want to know why it doesn't work out that way?
Cause we have a brain and we take into account other things not just speed.
Do you skim post?

Why are you so quick to knock down the argument and then go on to ignore the fact that Snake is subject to make an error MORE often than MK will?

Its like the time that you supported the idea of a perfect camping Olimar beating out MK.
If you are going to say one is wrong why are you going to contradict yourself and then say its all right for the other?
especially on a character whose weaknesses are more exploitable and s subject to expose those weaknesses more often?
If human error is in effect for 1 opponent how is it correct to assume perfection for the other?
Justify your claims.

No, it really doesn't. MK is punished much more severely for his mistakes and trades are always in favour in Snake. That's a lot more advantageous to me than having to play super safe and campy and frame-perfect in order to have an advantage.

Wait what? how is it more advantageous for Snake to play riskily than it is for MK to play safely?
Neither of the opponents are perfect but one is less prone to make an error and be punished while the other character is more prone to make an error and be punished for it.

Let alone that in order for Snake to punish MK very harshly he needs to land one of his rab combos which is exceedingly difficult. Yeah once he does it thats a good chunk of damage. but considering Snake has large openings allowing MK and easier time at exploiting thema nd more weaknesses that Mk can exploit, it evens out a bit.

If you powershield anything, it takes 1 frame to act out of your shield IIRC. Snake can powershield the d-tilt and punish it. Also, what NinjaLink said was true.

Cause the Snake player is totally perfect an will powershield the Dtilt repeatedly, perfectly.
i am sorry Inui you're starting to be biased.

Also what did he say exactly I missed it.

I find it EXTREMELY amusing that multiple top players and highly experienced tournament goers, such as Mew2King, myself, NinjaLink, and Jesiah have come in here saying Snake wins the match and have given good reasons, and the people disagreeing are all players I've never heard of. Fun fact.

I've never heard of you until recently Inui.
Does this mean you're only somewhat better than the average player?
Fame=/=skill
Your elitist attitude is tiring, boring and wrong.

here is something you will like.
Fox is considered the best character in melee.
yet the character who dominates in tournaments is Marth. The next best character.
**** what were we thinking? Move Marth up to first and knock Fox down to third. Since Falco is 2nd in tournament behavior).
We should just totally just follow the results of what has been given and completely ignore the deductive reasoning.
let's just ignore the flaws of inductive reasoning cause clearly that is what you want.

I find it funny you are swinging in your elitist attitude as if it means something to the debate Inui. Dropping names and saying "well m2k agrees with me" doesn't mean ANYTHING.
yeah its nice they agree and yes, their experience means they will know more about the argument. It does not automatically validate a bad argument.

tl;dr: No one cares who agrees with you, who you are if your argument is the same as a casual noob. Back up what you say or just shut up. Being good at Brawl means nothing. Just as being a Catholic in a religious debate means nothing.

 

[XienZo]

I'm pretty sure they weren't talking about that. More like using U-air and double jump to break momentum lol.

Anyway, since I cbf'd to wait for shadowlink to fall into my trap,






Anyway, here's basically what I was trying to get across:
If hotgarbage's data is correct and that you have 4 frames after shielding a D-tilt (immediately), then Snake's F-tilt should be able to hit MK during his ending lag.

And regardless, if MK uses any move, especially another D-tilt, not named shield or spotdodge, Snake should be able to catch him in startup lag.

So in the situation that MK d-tilts a shielding Snake:
taking into account hotgarbage's data:
D-tilt lasts 15 frames. Hit on frame 3.
Frame:
1
2
3 MK's D-tilt hits Snake's shield
4 Snake releases shield.
5
6
7
8
9
10
11 Shield is released
12 Snake F-tilt begins
13
14
15 ------------ MK is free (?) or in ending lag. Let's assume MK is free. MK starts D-tilt. Snake F-tilt connects.
16
17 MK's second D-tilt would make contact.
18

Meh, who knows. Maybe his D-tilt has more shield stun than 1 frame.

regardless, alot of this 'frame data' war is based on startup lag only, or ending lag only. If you take into account both, it might actually be more than you'd think.

I think the main problem with most people and MK's matchup is they wait too long to release shield. I wasn't aware that after shielding tornado, it was possible to run up to and punish him with faster characters. And then I saw a video and realized that you have to release shield as soon as you can, then run after and try to punish. Same thing with Shuttle loop. If you manage to shield the rise, you have to jump ASAP and throw out a quick aerial to counter it.

Yeah, I believe shield lag would throw that off.

And this is like with perfectly used characters.

 

[brinboy789]

If you DC, then you fall, then you're not doing the IDC. I stands for Infinite, and means you must be able to continuously be cloaked. Thus if you use it then fall, you're not staying cloaked and it's not the IDC. You might want to learn the proper labels for things before accepting other people using them.

oh, alright...but how does SDI and uair make you survive until 200%? maybe like, 130 at most, but 200?