ShadowLink84
Smash Hero
its a pity Mk just breaks them with the Dtilt withut being harmed.
Cause the MK's there are sooooooo skilled.
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The Official "Should/Will Metaknight be banned?" Thread (LISTEN TO THE SBR PODCAST!)
- Thread starter SamuraiPanda
- Start date
- Status
Inui
Banned via Warnings
I've yet to see any MK do this at any consistency worth anything, including Mew2King who I have played a lot both in tourny and friendlies.
40ish people.
Yeah, Jman and Shadow are very good.
DraKmoN001
Smash Apprentice
- Joined
- Jun 16, 2003
- Messages
- 88
Sorry to bother but do you have a video of this occurrence? I tried this myself earlier but each time I dtilted a grenade I got hit anyway. I noticed that if I spammed dtilt I move forward, so I tried to limit that by using it once and walking a bit closer instead, but that didn't seem to help either.
However I was able to kill the dsmash mine with MK's dtilt. I thought that was sort of surprising.
Genome Squirrel
Smash Apprentice
we need a national tourney
these east coast, west coast arguments are getting old
these east coast, west coast arguments are getting old
Daimonster
Smash Journeyman
I think MK breaks the system of counterpicking. Other than that, I actually believe he should be left in the game. However, certain stages make 6:4 matchups (olimar imo) and 55:45 (snake imo) a bit worse off. Anybody else feel this way?
Anther
Smash Champion
MK is pretty short I guess, but jeez, stepped on? NY'ers are rude.
slikvik
Smash Master
I think I'd run over a MK with my car if i saw one irl
Mew2King
King of the Mews
saloboB marth also outranges everyone in melee but that doesn't mean that he ***** every character nor is he the best character, Sheik is, or perfectly played Fox. When MK tries to fight Snake on the ground he is disadvantaged. Did you read InfernoOmni's post at all? You should read them.
btw, for those saying MKs spaced fair is the same as Snake's F tilt... not even close. Snake's F tilt goes right through that sword easily without trading with the 2nd hit. I never tested the 1st, but I do remember being F tilted (1st hit) out of my spaced fairs.
Also, Snake's down tilt easily outranges MK's down tilt. Stop acting like there's no options, and stop acting like players are going to play god perfect every few milliseconds. Sadly, even at high level, it does not work like that at all.
btw, for those saying MKs spaced fair is the same as Snake's F tilt... not even close. Snake's F tilt goes right through that sword easily without trading with the 2nd hit. I never tested the 1st, but I do remember being F tilted (1st hit) out of my spaced fairs.
Also, Snake's down tilt easily outranges MK's down tilt. Stop acting like there's no options, and stop acting like players are going to play god perfect every few milliseconds. Sadly, even at high level, it does not work like that at all.
Inui
Banned via Warnings
DSF and Ajax came here and got rocked in singles and teams, lol. >_>;
QFTMew2King said:
Smooth Criminal
Da Cheef
I don't know, M2K. Perfection down to the millisecond is all you.
(I KID.)
Smooth Criminal
(I KID.)
Smooth Criminal
Kikaioh
Smash Apprentice
Yikes! Several hundred pages on this, eh?? Must be a pretty hot-topic, ha? Buggerin' dan, if it don't just beat all!
Crimminy biscuit, well, my two cents on this... I've been playing Meta Knight from the very get-go actually, ever since Brawl's been out. It's funny ey, I'd actually been worried that Marth wouldn't get into Brawl since I'd spent all of Melee playing him, but I actually got bored of him and switched right away as soon as I got a hold of Meta (heh, same thing happened from classic Smash Bros., I used to play Pikachu and switched to Marth when Melee came out). Anywho, playing through all the characters in Sub-Space emissary, I just really liked the sound effect and the whole connect of his forward-a air. After playing against friends for a while back then, though, I was really worried about my choice since his attacks were pretty weak and it was hard to get a hold on the whole gliding and shuttle loop business.
Yeah, wot, but now it's all the opposite, ya? Not only quick-easy to control, but **** good recovery! No painful lags, no feel to need to camp, it's like he's a dancing, deathly killing speed machine! Granted, a little difficult for me to win in online ko fests (maybe how mr. sakurai wanted for everyone to play?), but overall Meta Knight's the ****e yo, just the type of character I tend to choose, is why I've always been a big fan of Taki in Soul Calibur anyways
I've never been too big on Tourneys until recently so, yeah, banning Meta Knight would certainly make the time I spent on the character seem a bit wasted. Then again, I can always pick up another character which'd be fun (it's always fun to learn new stuff!
), though it'd take time and I've the feeling I wouldn't get the same dancy flow I get from playing Meta Knight. Well hell wot, this whole thing is about banning Meta Knight from Tourneys, yeah? Not like it'd stop me from playing him for fun on me own time, so I guess the real question is whether it's fair or not to remove him from the Tournament scene? 
Hm.
Well hell! Tournaments are mainly about the moneys and the glory, yeah? Well, sure it's about other things like experience and a good time, but the way I sees it, most people mainly go to either win the moneys, find out if they're the best, or a little bit of both, am I right? If it's down to the moneys, well hey, that's kind of a morally base reason to go to a tourney anyhow (not to say it's not a good reason, it's valid, just not shonen jump valid unless you've a dying sister who needs eye surgery a'la Yu-Gi-Oh Abridged), which probably isn't the driving issue since I've the feeling most people are upset because of the latter reason, the glory, does that sound right?
Well, me brother and I fight Zamus vs. Meta Knight all the time, and he never switches to Meta Knight just to beat me. That's because he loves his character and wants to keep improving to show that he can overcome, which he cyclically manages to do. If tourney players don't have that drive internally, how is a ban going to affect that? I would think that for game players who do have that drive internally, it would be kind of silly to think "yes! I've overcome and I'm the best!! ...except if MetaKnight were in it, then I wouldn't stand a chance." Does that make sense? I never stopped trying to beat Goldibus in Tech Romancer just because he had 3 ****ing forms and was **** near impossible to defeat. It's all part of being the legend baby!
I just like the idea of a challenge and I don't think the odds for Meta Knight here are so impossible to beat that it can't be overcome, can it? What would Leonidas say to that, eh??
Ahh buggers, I'm really sleepy wot, but it's certainly an interesting issue, ain't it? I've seen a lot of perspectives on both sides and a lot of them are good. Writing this I can see how it would be hard to say which way to flow on it, so not a bad thing at all for everyone to talk it out! Well ladies and gents, hope it all turns out for the best! I'm trying to learn Toon Link y'know, he's like Jackie Chan, funny looking but kick-*** and good-hearted, and I do like the idea of the challenge that appears to be Meta Knight
Crimminy biscuit, well, my two cents on this... I've been playing Meta Knight from the very get-go actually, ever since Brawl's been out. It's funny ey, I'd actually been worried that Marth wouldn't get into Brawl since I'd spent all of Melee playing him, but I actually got bored of him and switched right away as soon as I got a hold of Meta (heh, same thing happened from classic Smash Bros., I used to play Pikachu and switched to Marth when Melee came out). Anywho, playing through all the characters in Sub-Space emissary, I just really liked the sound effect and the whole connect of his forward-a air. After playing against friends for a while back then, though, I was really worried about my choice since his attacks were pretty weak and it was hard to get a hold on the whole gliding and shuttle loop business.
Yeah, wot, but now it's all the opposite, ya? Not only quick-easy to control, but **** good recovery! No painful lags, no feel to need to camp, it's like he's a dancing, deathly killing speed machine! Granted, a little difficult for me to win in online ko fests (maybe how mr. sakurai wanted for everyone to play?), but overall Meta Knight's the ****e yo, just the type of character I tend to choose, is why I've always been a big fan of Taki in Soul Calibur anyways
I've never been too big on Tourneys until recently so, yeah, banning Meta Knight would certainly make the time I spent on the character seem a bit wasted. Then again, I can always pick up another character which'd be fun (it's always fun to learn new stuff!
), though it'd take time and I've the feeling I wouldn't get the same dancy flow I get from playing Meta Knight. Well hell wot, this whole thing is about banning Meta Knight from Tourneys, yeah? Not like it'd stop me from playing him for fun on me own time, so I guess the real question is whether it's fair or not to remove him from the Tournament scene? Hm.Well hell! Tournaments are mainly about the moneys and the glory, yeah? Well, sure it's about other things like experience and a good time, but the way I sees it, most people mainly go to either win the moneys, find out if they're the best, or a little bit of both, am I right? If it's down to the moneys, well hey, that's kind of a morally base reason to go to a tourney anyhow (not to say it's not a good reason, it's valid, just not shonen jump valid unless you've a dying sister who needs eye surgery a'la Yu-Gi-Oh Abridged
), which probably isn't the driving issue since I've the feeling most people are upset because of the latter reason, the glory, does that sound right?Well, me brother and I fight Zamus vs. Meta Knight all the time, and he never switches to Meta Knight just to beat me. That's because he loves his character and wants to keep improving to show that he can overcome, which he cyclically manages to do. If tourney players don't have that drive internally, how is a ban going to affect that? I would think that for game players who do have that drive internally, it would be kind of silly to think "yes! I've overcome and I'm the best!! ...except if MetaKnight were in it, then I wouldn't stand a chance." Does that make sense? I never stopped trying to beat Goldibus in Tech Romancer just because he had 3 ****ing forms and was **** near impossible to defeat. It's all part of being the legend baby!
I just like the idea of a challenge and I don't think the odds for Meta Knight here are so impossible to beat that it can't be overcome, can it? What would Leonidas say to that, eh?? Ahh buggers, I'm really sleepy wot, but it's certainly an interesting issue, ain't it? I've seen a lot of perspectives on both sides and a lot of them are good. Writing this I can see how it would be hard to say which way to flow on it, so not a bad thing at all for everyone to talk it out!
Well ladies and gents, hope it all turns out for the best! I'm trying to learn Toon Link y'know, he's like Jackie Chan, funny looking but kick-*** and good-hearted, and I do like the idea of the challenge that appears to be Meta Knight 
adumbrodeus
Smash Legend
And I explained the fallacy in Snake winning on the ground.
Inferno0mni's argument was basically "MK will make mistakes, therefore the match-up is not in MK's favor".
The fact is, either player making mistakes is a function of reletive player skill, if the Snake player mindgames the MK player into messing up the spacing and then punishing, the Snake player is more skilled.
So does Marth's f-smash...
And players making mistakes is a function of skill. The basic point of this whole discussion was, "Snake wins if MK makes more/worse mistakes then he does", which is what DEFINES a disadvantageous match-up.
Master Raven
Smash Master
Just a question: how reliable is Dtilt's use in blowing up grenades?
-Nana-
Smash Journeyman
LOL this thread is soooooo gay.
Dragonslayer9
Smash Cadet
- Joined
- Dec 18, 2007
- Messages
- 36
Ran Iji from the first page basically got my opinion down.
The Real Inferno
Smash Hero
Do you type like that on purpose?
Falconv1.0
Smash Master
God Help him if he doesn't. O.o
popsofctown
Smash Champion
i think as both a snake and MK player get better and better, MK starts to win. I think a national tournament would demonstrate that. I'd go. Kansas?
Inui
Banned via Warnings
You do realize that reality is taken into account when discussing match-ups and not Super Theory Bros. Brawl, right?
Reality: No MK is going to consistently hit the grenade with the very pixel of d-tilt that won't get MK blown up. Players make mistakes and can be tricked. Any trading of hits is in favour of Snake because he does more damage and takes far more damage to kill.
Turbo Ether
Smash Master
- Joined
- Apr 12, 2006
- Messages
- 3,601
His arguments have been based on Super Theory Bros. Brawl the whole time pretty much.
So is the idea of Olimar perfect camping being really effective vs. MK, if we want to go that way.
Where are the Olimar's winning tournies against MK's?
Turbo Ether
Smash Master
- Joined
- Apr 12, 2006
- Messages
- 3,601
NJ. Atomsk's Oli did lose to Inui's MK on saturday, but it was still a close set, and Atomsk managed to 3 stock Inui in one game.
Our theories are at least put into practice. The theory that "Snake gets owned by MK's Dtilt" does not hold up in tournaments.
Edit: I'm not blindly saying Olimar ***** MK or anything. I'm saying, based on what i've seen and learned in the past few weeks, my current human perception is that Olimar does pretty good against MK.
M2K has said yes, if the MK doesn't mess up the spacing -- so it's riskier than the aerial approach.
If MK's aren't specifically focusing on their ground spacing game, we can't say whether it is or isn't possible either -- Just like until Olimars started focusing on their camping game, they didn't have much of a response to MK and the idea of perfect camping working was just theory without results to back it up.
Falconv1.0
Smash Master
^This
MK does not beat Snake, they at the least counter each other, and since the best MK player alive states Snake beats MK, I simply chose to believe he is right.
The best MK player alive has a strong bias to keep MK unbanned. I don't believe he would lie for it (Like saying someone counters MK when they don't), but he certainly might push things to an edge in his statements.
Ulevo
Smash Master
You're not the first to go ahead and just assume this. You're not M2K. This shouldn't be a stronghold in your argument as to why M2K's opinion isn't as credible as anyone else's. You might as well say that we shouldn't listen to anyone who uses Meta Knight. Yes, he may very well wish to argue against Meta Knights ban strictly because he likes Meta Knight. That doesn't mean it will sway his judgement to the point where his factual claims are false or any less important.
For the record. Anyone stating Snake doesn't counter Meta Knight needs to play Ally.
I'm not saying Snake doesn't go 55:45 against MK.
I'm saying M2K saying it is not nearly enough proof, because M2K has shown bias by downplaying MK's capabilities before. That being said, I'm not saying it's on purpose -- when people strongly feel something, it can shift even their perception of facts.
Ulevo
Smash Master
It isn't just M2K stating this. He is just a really credible source in my mind. And when did he ever downplay Meta Knights capabilities?
As for the whole Snake thing, I was just throwing it out there.
The problem with saying this is that it still admits MK has the theoretical edge -- if he plays flawlessly.
So at lower-mid levels of play, MK beats Snake. At high levels of play, Snake (is said to) have a slight edge -- 55:45. But when you get to perfect levels of play, MK again starts edging ahead because of the possibilities of a flawless dtilt.
So arguing MK shouldn't be banned because Snake beats MK doesn't hold up to reality, when MK has the advantage in the majority of levels of play (Including at the very peak of human ability). And honestly, someone could master the spacing if they spend enough time practicing at it, people just aren't patient enough to reset and slowly work their way back in against Snake if it ever goes wrong. If you want to explain why the dtilt outranging both grenades and ftilt isn't an effective pressure against Snake, you can't just say "MK will make mistakes" -- those come from impatience, in this case. You must demonstrate why a perfectly executed dtilt push can be stopped by Snake.
In the entire "Tips vs MK" thread he didn't acknowledge any of the options MK had to react to you using any of the proposed tips -- when all the tips he gave were against only the most common approaches. This made MK appear far more easily handleable than he proves in reality.
Falconv1.0
Smash Master
M2K doesn't want MK banned=/= He's a lying non credible arse.
I specifically said I didn't think he would lie.
However, who's to say he at what level of play he's judging the Snake vs. MK matchup? It's not lying if he pegs it one notch below top human abilities (ie, we're not looking at the unrealistic wolf-shine levels), it's just not providing the exact place he's made the judgment at.
See my previous post for why I believe the skill levels matter (tl;dr: There's a point at "Great" play where Snake > MK, but if you can get above that in your patience and ability the dtilt should push it back to MK > Snake)
NinjaLink
Smash Master
Wolf-shine levels LOL
HRNUT (Honey Roasted)
Smash Master
i'm pretty sure impact clash was after sept 28 so why is that included?? and gigabits is after the 28th as well but i don't know if they're on Ankoku's list
Ulevo
Smash Master
Care to point those out?
All you have to do is read through the thread, it was addressed in it.
Care to demonstrate where he shows he's unbiased and provides facts to back up his opinion?
Edit: I think M2K even said he wasn't going to tell people how to really beat good MK's, because that would be telling them how to beat him. This isn't unreasonable, but it means he did do what I described.
adumbrodeus
Smash Legend
Super theory brothers = you're technically right, but I don't want to admit it, so I'll dismiss it as "just theory".
No justifacation for why the theory is wrong, just simply that it's "theory".
Of course every player makes mistakes, but how many they make and how great they are is a function of skill.
The fact that MK has to make more mistakes then Snake to lose is what DEFINES an advantagious match-up.
That's why it's a SLIGHT advantage, not a large advantage.
As for matches being better then match-up discussion, deduction>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>induction, see the Problem of Induction. Deductive reasoning is rigorous, while inductive reasoning is not.
While we unfortunately have to depend on inductive reasoning to a degree, we get around that by defining match-ups based on the current metagame, so only taking into account currently discovered info, and changing match-ups as more info is discovered.
The people actually doing the deduction might have flawed reasoning, that's why we have other people on the boards, to point out errors, so they may be corrected.
On the other hand, defining the match-ups by "who generally beats who" has a few GLARING issues.
1. The player of the disadvantaged character might be better.
2. No players of a certain character might be at the top of the character's metagame.
3. Match-up knowledge might make the match-up have different results then it should.
4. The character might have a disadvantage at certain levels of play, but not others.
2 and 4 are ESPECIALLY issues when dealing with unpopular characters, you're simply not gonna find enough high-leveled players to compete. Also certain characters are so difficult that really reaching the top of the metagame is realistically possible to this point (melee fox).
Really, crafting a debate in theoretical terms is the only way to get the true result. We just have to be very critical. Because it's like Math, you can have a billion+ results going one way, but 200 billion just waiting to happen. That is the fundamental flaw with inductive reasoning.
Appeal to authority fallacy.
Just because M2K says it doesn't mean it's true.
Sub-conscious biases are more then enough to account for him giving false info, even if he is the one true authority.
I went and found this, because it was one of M2K's posts on which I base my belief that MK's dtilt can be more effective vs. Snake than people are giving it credit for:
The reason this is a problem is easy: By the frame data, M2K either screwed something up or is not telling us the whole story. So there is a bias involved on his part in making this seem like what Snake will always do. Let's take it apart a bit more.
He says he's spaced dtilts on Snake. That means he should be out of range of the first hit of Snake's ftilt. We have gone over the frame data, and after MK dtilts Snake does not have the range to hit back with the first hit of his ftilt. This means before he gets hit, MK has time to do a second dtilt, an ftilt (Because the first of Snake's ftilt should have carried him forward into range of this and it's just as fast activating as MK's dtilt), or simply shield the second hit of Snake's ftilt -- but M2K says "before I knew what was happening." So he either wasn't actually spaced even though he said he was and got hit by Snake's first ftilt hit, or he's exaggerating the speed it happened and most likely was just unprepared for this response.
This is where theorycrafting is valuable, because in the heat of battle without having practiced for a situation things can often seem unanswerable; in reality some of them can be dealt with if you're already prepared for the possibilities and acting based on what your opponent can do.
And from the same post, he's saying if MK tries to ftilt from too close to Snake, then any mistiming will punish MK. The easy answer is that MK must be as patient as Snake in this matchup and only engage when he has set up the spacing he needs, and not use ftilt when he should be using dtilt. But note the bias here, MK is using a shorter range attack than he has available, and M2K is still saying if he is perfect in his timing he can hit Snake first -- shouldn't this end up more strongly in favor of MK, not a point against him?
ShadowLink84
Smash Hero
I've yet to see an Olimar or a Snake perfect camp yet you and a number of other players bring it up as a valid argument.
Just pointing that out.
Anyways considering the and the range to the Dtilt as well as how MK moves slightly forward, its best to use the Dtilt just out of range where you can perform it. this means you would still hit Snake if he tries to hit you with the second part of his Ftilt.
Cause 2 MK's=50 MK's.
you know what I was talking about so I do not understand why you insist on responding stupidly.
Hype
Smash Lord
This is true, I wrote an essay on this subject.
Random fact: The same people win Rock-Paper-Scissors tourneys consistantly.
Edit: 10000th post in the banning MK thread!
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