The Official "Should/Will Metaknight be banned?" Thread (LISTEN TO THE SBR PODCAST!)

[Steel]

"Snake's d/f/utilts all out range MK to my knowledge"

no they don't. MK's dtilt outranges everything snake has on the ground except for Snake's second ftilt.

 

[Dark Sonic]

^^Which it outspeeds.

10threeframedowntilts

 

[HeroMystic]

Holy balls, I never knew MK's D-tilt was THAT disjointed.

 

[Steel]

Tis.

We weren't lying when we said he had the best poking moves among the entire cast.

 

[OverLade]

"Snake's d/f/utilts all out range MK to my knowledge"

no they don't. MK's dtilt outranges everything snake has on the ground except for Snake's second ftilt.

Perfectly spaced Fairs also have equal range to snakes 2nd tilt, and are faster. His Ftilt has slightly more range than the first tilt, or perhaps equal. Basically, without nades or nado, Metaknight even has an edge on the ground.

The matchup is in snakes favor, don't get me wrong, but Metaknight has tons of options vs. even the most defensive snake.

 

[-Nana-]

"Snake's d/f/utilts all out range MK to my knowledge"

no they don't. MK's dtilt outranges everything snake has on the ground except for Snake's second ftilt.

Alright, my mistake. I could've sworn his utilt does but I'll take your word for it. Either way I still think the fight is in Snake's favor.

 

[ShadowLink84]

You haven't stated what you believe yet everyone of your arguments is pro-ban. I ignore your Akuma/ any other anology to bans you bring up because they're irrelevant. This isn't SF it's smash. It's a different game and shouldn't be compared. In Atlantic North MK is not dominating at all.I've also seen plenty of tournaments from other regions where MK wasn't top.

That is pure idiocy on your point.
The requirements for a ban are the extremely similar to those in ALL types of game genre including card games.

banning of Akuma: Overcentralizing/stagnation of metagame.
Banning of ravager: overcentralizing/stagnation of metagame.
Banning of Red eyes darkness metal dragon= would cause overcentralizing.stagnation of metagame.

The analogies are valid. Saying that one game is not comparable purely on gameplay is crap especially considering that the ban criteria that we are using is VERY similar to those that caused Akuma to be banned.
Now respond to the argument rather than coming up with poor reasons to ignore it.

You say that top players know the match ups therefore they can beat MK...otherwise it's...impossible?

Where did I say this?
Do you even bother reading what I have stated.
Stop assuming my argument for me kthxbai.

stuff

Go back to my last post. Read the analogy(since you obviously have not otherwise you would not make such a reply) and THEN respond. otherwise, you're just straw mannin and its wasting my time.

Also if you think he dominates more than Marth your nuts.

Marth dominated 34% national tournament wise.
MK dominates 33% national tournament wise.
MK dominates 33% with 2 less tournaments.
He also takes up 2 to 3 more spots than marth does nationally wise.

If you are going to respond read my posts since it is obvious you're just ignoring several parts such as the reasoning.

EDIT- I agree with Inui on this. 60/40 Snake sounds right to me. Also Snake can grab MK out of his tornado, as well as grenade it. Snake's d/f/utilts all out range MK to my knowledge. Not to mention MK is light and Snake hits like a ****ing train. As with anyone else against MK, you need to change your playstyle a bit, but that's adaptation. That's whatbeing a smart/good player is.

ITT: Antiban slap people with smelly fish and tell the antiban people to get better. Totally something we should do in an argument that assumes high level play.


MK outranges all of Snake's moves on the ground with his Dtilt,.
The only move that can compare in range to MK's Dtilt is Snake's second opart of the Ftilt.
That aprt comes out on frame 18.
MK's Dtilt is 15 frames.
this means that when MK spaces properly he can not only outrange Snake's first part of the Ftilt, he can hit Snake before the 2nd Ftilt can connect.
He can also break the grenades with his Ftilt.

The tornado isn't a big deal and if the MK is stupid enough to use it while you hold a grenade or to use the tornado far away that you can prepare for a grab, then clearly they are being stupid.

A good Mk will space Snake and ensure that no matter how Snake reacts on the ground, Snake would be unable to react safely.
MK wouldn't be capable of breaking through Snake's defense easily.

As I said earlier I am int he "its too early to decide" crowd.
Snake doesn't have the ability to break through MK's offense easily.
MK doesn't hit as hard as Snake, but he can gimp, fight aerially, juggle Snake.

I can care less if you think I am pro ban. Fact of the matter is that I am not.
If it does seem that way, its because there are days where the anti ban side just reasons poorly.

MK's Dtilte xtends past its graphics enough to outrange Snake's ground moves and pop grenades without hassle.

 

[Falconv1.0]

Ummm, quick little note. Someone mentioned MK's dont **** everyone's arse in Inui's area because all the top players live there. That's basically saying only a top player can learn MK match ups, which is absolute ****ing bull****.

 

[-Nana-]

Alright. I'll start reading your points when you start reading mine and stop assuming what I do as well. The fight is still in Snake's favor IMO.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Alright. I'll start reading your points when you start reading mine and stop assuming what I do as well. The fight is still in Snake's favor IMO.

Where did I ignore your points?
If you mean where I simply put stuff that's because I have no need to, we assume high level play already.

 

[HRNUT (Honey Roasted)]

Since I don't know enough about the tournament scene to give a valid opinion on the issue, I thought I'd compile some statistics to see if the claim "MK should be banned" has solid reasoning behind it. What I did was I took the 10 most recent tournaments with over 50 players and looked at how MK performed overall. The two exceptions to this rule (to get the magic 10 tournaments I planned for) was that one tournament used only had 49 entrants, and the last tournament included was held on the 28th September. Close enough!

The reasoning for only including tournaments with large amount of players was:
- More players = More money = More is at stake = Higher level of competition
- Large tournaments have many rounds so only "better" players should get a Top 8
- Larger pool of players means more characters have a chance of being represented (but not neccesarily place very well)

Ok, so here are the 10 most recent tournaments with 49 or more entrants (Taken exactly from Ankoku's list). MK usage has been bolded



Results

Tournaments Won by MK:
5/10 or
50%

Number of Top 8 Places by MK
26/79 (A character used was not provided for the 7th placed player in Tournament #6) or
~33% (rounded up)

So therefore, assuming the source is accurate the following statements are true:

Since the start of October, half of all large scale tournaments (over 49 entrees) have been won by a player who used Metaknight either exclusively or for the vast majority of matches

And

Since the start of October, one third of all Top 8 placings in a large scale tournament (over 49 entrees) have been by a player who used Metaknight either exclusively or to a recognisable degree

So there you have it. Are these statistics enough to warrant some form of ban? Who knows, interpret them how you will.

Tl;dr: In the last 10 major tournaments, 33% of all Top 8 placing players used MK and 50% of said tournaments were won by MK

i played metaknight once at impact clash, the only match i played him was when i sandbagged against afro and got third playing him i didn't use him against anyone else so this didn't affect the results of the tournament at all

 

[ShadowLink84]

I am confused HRN. Which tournament?

 

[HRNUT (Honey Roasted)]

Impact clash, and i won the last gigabits without the use of metaknight at all, you should add that in there, it was called Gigabits-A Fall Brawl in the Atlantic South Florida to be exact.

 

[NinjaLink]

Atlantic North pretty much collectively bans such dumb things that ruin the game. There is no reason to make DK, Bowser, and other characters 100% unusable. Not even MK has 100/0 matches in his favour like Dedede-with-infinites does.

Bum beats the MKs, that's what I'm talking about here.



My most sincere, deepest, most meaningful apologies, good sir.

I will somehow find a way to stop the absolute best player on the planet from winning our tournaments. Really, I'll get right on that.



I got threestocked by Atomsk's Olimar in tourny just last Saturday because he spiked me three times and camped me. I won the set anyways after many close matches that followed, but still, I got wrecked in one game because of spikes and Olimar's camping. Atomsk also had three very close matches with Mew2King in winners finals and Mew2King considers Atomsk's Olimar a slight tourny threat.



Once again, it is not my fault that other regions don't have Snakes that beat MKs. Our Snakes beat them a lot.



That's only counting stuff in Ankoku's rankings, dude.

There was a recent tournament with free entry, but it still had circuit points for an NJ circuit, where 1st place was Atomsk's Olimar/Dedede/Kirby, 2nd place was Keitaro's Falco, 3rd place was Yes!'s Snake, and 4th place was my Snake. The highest placing MK was dmbrandon at 5th, tied with Blue's Sonic.

Bum's NY tournaments almost never get included because he fails at using TIO and getting real results posted, but MK never even touches top 3 at those anymore. Bum's DK, Snakeee's ZSS, NinjaLink's Diddy, Basic Sausages's Dedede, D1's Falco, etc. consistently beat the MKs, which includes Jman and Shadow.



I honestly believe the match is 60/40 Snake in most situations. Halberd tips it this far and so does FD. Snake can camp the platforms very well on Battlefield.

I don't know how to explain the Snakes in other regions losing to MKs, but it rarely happens here. I think other Snakes lack high level experience against the best MKs and don't camp enough. The key is to play defensively. You have to read your opponent and be smart. If Snake doesn't allow himself to get put into situations where MK gimps him, he wins. If M2K didn't gimp my Snake in game one recently, I would have won that match for sure.

Btw, it's a complete and total myth that MK's d-tilt shuts down Snake. Second hit of Snake's f-tilt will beat it and MK will indeed blow up if Snake drops a grenade regardless of how well-spaced the d-tilt is.

Once again. Stop inferring that i only beat mks with diddy. Jman i 2-0ed with Rob only.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Kinda funny he says ban dumb things where they ban INFINITES but not characters.

I should be saying we.

 

[AgentJGV]

I think this has become more of a mental mindset of MK being unbeatable.

 

[vanderzant]

i played metaknight once at impact clash, the only match i played him was when i sandbagged against afro and got third playing him i didn't use him against anyone else so this didn't affect the results of the tournament at all

Well I stated in my post that the data I got is only as accurate as the source I used. If you didn't use MK enough to warrant his inclusion in Ankoku's rankings list, then maybe you should tell Ankoku that.

@ Inui

I think it was you who said that I should of included some other tournaments that you went to that weren't on Ankoku's list or something? Correct me if I'm wrong.

As I stated in my original post, I only included tournaments that were in Ankoku's list that:

- Has entry fees and prize money (in order to be in Ankoku's list in the first place). People will play "more" seriously when money is on the line resulting in a higher level of competition (read my little discussion on why I included "high level" tournaments, or what I considered to be "high level" competition
- Had at least 50 (one had 49) entrants
- Occurred recently and more specifically, before September 28th

Do the tournaments you suggested fit the following criteria? My guess is that they probably don't unless there has been a mistake on Ankoku's or my part.

Again, sorry if it was not in fact you (Inui) who said those things.

 

[Genome Squirrel]

don't think too highly of ankoku's list
it's as much a measure of popularity as it is a measure of character performance
unless sonic is really is as good as sonic mains will tell you

 

[salaboB]

don't think too highly of ankoku's list
it's as much a measure of popularity as it is a measure of character performance
unless sonic is really is as good as sonic mains will tell you

He was using Ankoku's qualifications for having a tournament listed to determine which ones were big enough to be taken seriously, he said nothing about how to view Ankoku's list.

 

[aeghrur]

don't think too highly of ankoku's list
it's as much a measure of popularity as it is a measure of character performance
unless sonic is really is as good as sonic mains will tell you

Sonic sucks, we'll tell you that much.
He just doesn't suck as bad as the SBR thinks of him.

 

[ShadowLink84]

don't think too highly of ankoku's list
it's as much a measure of popularity as it is a measure of character performance
unless sonic is really is as good as sonic mains will tell you

Everyone straw mans the Sonic main.
We state low mid tier at best.
We also think he is ot as bad as the SBR claims him to be.
We do not think of him as a good character.

He has a better taunt than everyone else though.

 

[brinboy789]

He has a better taunt than everyone else though.

captain falcon would like a word with you

 

[ShadowLink84]

captain falcon would like a word with you

When Captain Falcon causes someone to SD in pork city using only his side taunt. come back to me.

 

[brinboy789]

When Captain Falcon causes someone to SD in pork city using only his side taunt. come back to me.

maybe not his side taunt, but nothing can match his downtaunt NOTHING

 

[Genome Squirrel]

He was using Ankoku's qualifications for having a tournament listed to determine which ones were big enough to be taken seriously, he said nothing about how to view Ankoku's list.

it was a general comment partly in response to what inui, him, and others have said.
ankoku's thread could have a use here, but its present data is inconclusive.
as one of the best characters and one of the easier characters to learn, a high percentage is justifiable. and since ankoku's thread can't remove popularity it would be hard to determine what percentage is unreasonable.

 

[aeghrur]

maybe not his side taunt, but nothing can match his downtaunt NOTHING

This is Brawl man, get with the times. Falcon's taunt is no longer the best.
God, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H-RDwf-xhhY&fmt=18

 

[ShadowLink84]

maybe not his side taunt, but nothing can match his downtaunt NOTHING

Side taunt trumps all!
YOU'RE TOO SLLOOOOOW

 

[brinboy789]

This is Brawl man, get with the times. Falcon's taunt is no longer the best.
God, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H-RDwf-xhhY&fmt=18

lol wow. 10 minutes of YOUR TOO SLOW. thats dangerous, people could to insane from that but falcon's dtaunt is still the best. a sacred combo followed by a dtaunt is godly beyond comprehension.

in all seriousness though, luigis is the best. its the strongest spike in the game! lol. no joke, its the strongest spike in the game X_X

 

[The Real Inferno]

Brinboy speaks truth.

 

[aeghrur]

No, he has a flaw in his theory for combos don't exist in brawl, gawd.
So Falcon has lost his sacred comboness with the dtaunt and instead, we have sawnik's side taunt which owns all now. (=<

 

[MorphedChaos]

Dunno, D3's Crouch kinda beats sonic's Side taunt. C'mon! D3's Chillaxing!

either that or Wario's D and U taunts.

 

[brinboy789]

No, he has a flaw in his theory for combos don't exist in brawl, gawd.
So Falcon has lost his sacred comboness with the dtaunt and instead, we have sawnik's side taunt which owns all now. (=<

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vuNE3KWBeCs
pwned. if his brother didnt restart then i bet he wouldve dtaunted.

and what can sonic do? hit someone with a spring and say YOUR TOO SLOW to avoid the spring?

 

[aeghrur]

Psh, lol, it was not completed thus it does not count. (=<
MUAHAHAHAHAHA!
YOUR TOO SLOW!!!
And yes, sonic can just run away+your too slow until you suicide, lololololol, auto win.

 

[Tenki]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vuNE3KWBeCs
pwned. if his brother didnt restart then i bet he wouldve dtaunted.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8_iAC8bVfKY&fmt=18

This one's a more legit combo than the Brawl Sacred Combo. And it ends in a D-taunt.

 

[XienZo]

wow....

what is all this...

 

[Genome Squirrel]

Side taunt trumps all!
YOU'RE TOO SLLOOOOOW

snake's taunt can actually kill, at unreasonable percentages and the opponent would have to stupidly walk into it, but still the box can kill better than a lot of other moves. sonic's taunts is just asking for spam in a spam happy game. sonic don't like spam or camping.

snake's taunt is the best

 

[ShadowLink84]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vuNE3KWBeCs
pwned. if his brother didnt restart then i bet he wouldve dtaunted.

and what can sonic do? hit someone with a spring and say YOUR TOO SLOW to avoid the spring?

No he has something better.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V4GGuRDQShw

Skip to 1:12.
=)

 

[vanderzant]

don't think too highly of ankoku's list
it's as much a measure of popularity as it is a measure of character performance

This is the MAJOR reason why I excluded low turnout tournaments (something Ankoku's list doesn't do). For example, lets pretend Ganon is fairly popular, in fact 1/4 of all entrants at tournaments use him (just pretend).

In a tournament of 16 entrants, there is a decent chance one of those 4 ganondorfs will win one match and make it to the Top 8

In a tournament with 50 entrants, those 12 or so ganondorfs will have to win at least 3 rounds to make it to the Top 8.

Large tournaments filter out players who have a smaller chance of winning (both by their character choice and skill level). This is a very blunt example, but it shows why my data filters out character popularity to a certain degree (arguably more so than Ankoku's list).

ankoku's thread could have a use here, but its present data is inconclusive.

My data is inconclusive, but it can be interpreted. If tournament organisers/SBR/whoever that matters thinks that MK winning 50% of recent major tournaments isn't sufficent for some form of a ban, then that's up to them.

as one of the best characters and one of the easier characters to learn, a high percentage is justifiable. and since ankoku's thread can't remove popularity it would be hard to determine what percentage is unreasonable.

I explained why my data removes popularity to some extent, but I agree that it's hard to determine what percentage is reasonable for a ban.

 

[Inui]

no they don't. MK's dtilt outranges everything snake has on the ground except for Snake's second ftilt.

God bless 1 frame grenades.

@ Inui

I think it was you who said that I should of included some other tournaments that you went to that weren't on Ankoku's list or something? Correct me if I'm wrong.

As I stated in my original post, I only included tournaments that were in Ankoku's list that:

- Has entry fees and prize money (in order to be in Ankoku's list in the first place). People will play "more" seriously when money is on the line resulting in a higher level of competition (read my little discussion on why I included "high level" tournaments, or what I considered to be "high level" competition
- Had at least 50 (one had 49) entrants
- Occurred recently and more specifically, before September 28th

Do the tournaments you suggested fit the following criteria? My guess is that they probably don't unless there has been a mistake on Ankoku's or my part.

Again, sorry if it was not in fact you (Inui) who said those things.

Bum hosts weeklies, so there are obviously many real tournaments that haven't been included in Ankoku's lists where MK gets ***** because NY steps on MK.

 

[salaboB]

God bless 1 frame grenades.

dtilt outranges grenade blast.

Bum hosts weeklies, so there are obviously many real tournaments that haven't been included in Ankoku's lists where MK gets ***** because NY steps on MK.

How big are the weeklies?