The Official "Should/Will Metaknight be banned?" Thread (LISTEN TO THE SBR PODCAST!)

[Master Raven]

I don't see what kind of extra arguments were brought on by the podcast; I wasn't that impressed, especially with Overswarm's comment on FL being dominated by MK. FL is by far one of the least MK-dominated states, even with players like Rx- and Gmoney who you could basically say are Plank's apprentices.

 

[Tenki]

Yeah, I believe shield lag would throw that off.

And this is like with perfectly used characters.

Well, here's the original info I got from him in a PM.

DTILT
-duration: 15
-hits on frame 3
-cooldown: 12
-shield stun: 1
-raw advantage: -11
-OOS advantage: -4

This actually assumes a 'worser' case, because JimboCav's D-tilt says that MK's D-tilt lasts 17 frames. whoopee, 2 frame difference lol.

 

[rehab]

And Rehab. In the Podcast discussing MK's banning it was mentioned that a Snake uaired a MK and lived at 200 percent.

Some guy recently said he now consistently lives to some obscene percent using uair+fast fall+something. That sounds, like, weird, and I think I'd like to see that.

 

[salaboB]

This actually assumes a 'worser' case, because JimboCav's D-tilt says that MK's D-tilt lasts 17 frames. whoopee, 2 frame difference lol.

That may be not accounting for IASA frames.

 

[Tenki]

I personally asked him to hold shield or spam some input after doing moves, so IASA frames would be accounted for.

Whether or not they are, I'm not sure lol.

 

[MorphedChaos]

Brinn, its Uair to jump, Uair gets you your areal control back, and the jump stops your flight momentum. THATS how MK can survive to bowserish percents.

 

[Master Raven]

Some guy recently said he now consistently lives to some obscene percent using uair+fast fall+something. That sounds, like, weird, and I think I'd like to see that.

I would really like for a couple people to do some testing on this.

 

[XienZo]

Brinn, its Uair to jump, Uair gets you your areal control back, and the jump stops your flight momentum. THATS how MK can survive to bowserish percents.

IF you're flying upwards, you use fast-fall instead of jumping.

 

[ShadowLink84]

I personally asked him to hold shield or spam some input after doing moves, so IASA frames would be accounted for.

Whether or not they are, I'm not sure lol.

The last 2 frames of the Dtilt is where MK draws the sword back from its starting position to his side.
I don't believe he was taking into account IASA frames.

 

[JesiahTEG]

dude i tried that **** and it doesn't work. I wish lol

You WOULD want that to work.

LOL @ me manually adding ur quote in cuz I forgot it

 

[ShadowLink84]

You WOULD want that to work.

LOL @ me manually adding ur quote in cuz I forgot it

Who knows it could be that people are Dtilt and thinking they hit the grenades? I am quite sure I did since the grenade exploded as I attacked.

= /

 

[Inui]

I see why Atomsk doesn't post in this debate now.

When randomplayer24329 and foxfalcomasta666 say "my opinion is as valid as yours" to someone like Mew2King, myself, or Atomsk, it's extremely insulting and stupid when we have significantly more real high-level tournament experience.

Continually, consistently, and repeatedly, Snake vs MK is proven to be Snake's advantage over and over and over and over and over in real, high-level tournament sets and money matches in the region with the best players. The vast majority of our top players and experienced players agree that Snake wins and that MK should not be banned. I don't think any more evidence should be needed.

 

[Atomsk_92]

Hense why i post in here for teh lulz

and to post hot images of lolis

 

[XienZo]

I see why Atomsk doesn't post in this debate now.

When randomplayer24329 and foxfalcomasta666 say "my opinion is as valid as yours" to someone like Mew2King, myself, or Atomsk, it's extremely insulting and stupid when we have significantly more real high-level tournament experience.

Continually, consistently, and repeatedly, Snake vs MK is proven to be Snake's advantage over and over and over and over and over in real, high-level tournament sets and money matches in the region with the best players. The vast majority of our top players and experienced players agree that Snake wins and that MK should not be banned. I don't think any more evidence should be needed.

Wouldn't technical advantage be more important since the psychological and w/e else environmental factors that make MK lose right now be overcome over time if MK has a technical advantage? I'm not sure if we can take what is occuring right now to prove MK is controllable; MK usage/dominance has been increasing since the beginning of Brawl and I doubt it'll be like this even in a few months, whether it be for better or for worse.

 

[GofG]

When randomplayer24329 and foxfalcomasta666 say "my opinion is as valid as yours" to someone like Mew2King, myself, or Atomsk, it's extremely insulting and stupid when we have significantly more real high-level tournament experience.

Lol.

I THOUGHT THIS THREAD WAS ABOUT THE TOP LEVELS OF GAMEPLAY, NOT THE HIGHER LEVELS, INUI!!!

 

[Atomsk_92]

^ way to make a useful post XD

 

[Inui]

Wouldn't technical advantage be more important since the psychological and w/e else environmental factors that make MK lose right now be overcome over time if MK has a technical advantage? I'm not sure if we can take what is occuring right now to prove MK is controllable; MK usage/dominance has been increasing since the beginning of Brawl and I doubt it'll be like this even in a few months, whether it be for better or for worse.

I don't see any technical advantage whatsoever. The stuff people keep saying about MK's d-tilt shutting down Snake and f-air beating Snake's f-tilt is all exagerrated. Mew2King, the best MK, has trouble beating my Snake when I'm like 10th best Snake at best. That convinces me alone. When I see Forte consistently lose to Snakes and watched Mew2King's Snake 2stock Chillin's MK twice in tourny, I was even more convinced. Too much REAL stuff keeps happening over here that says MK loses.

 

[memphischains]

LOL inui wtf, you need to read your posts before you hit the reply button

 

[ShadowLink84]

I see why Atomsk doesn't post in this debate now.

If he has something valid to add He might as well.

When randomplayer24329 and foxfalcomasta666 say "my opinion is as valid as yours" to someone like Mew2King, myself, or Atomsk, it's extremely insulting and stupid when we have significantly more real high-level tournament experience.

When you are saying soemthing like.
Snake vs Mk is Snake's advantage. I know cause im high level. Then guess what? You are on the same level as a casual noob because they make the same argument.
Snake vs Mk is Snake's advantage cause he has grenades.

How does that validate your argument?
If your argument is bad, no amount of experience will help your bad argument.
How hard is that to understand?

Continually, consistently, and repeatedly, Snake vs MK is proven to be Snake's advantage over and over and over and over and over in real, high-level tournament sets and money matches in the region with the best players. The vast majority of our top players and experienced players agree that Snake wins and that MK should not be banned. I don't think any more evidence should be needed.

inui I must be speaking chinese cause evidently, you aren't registering what I am saying.
Marth dominated in melee.
Fox on the other hand is the best character and his tournament rankings were below falco (who is second).
By your logic if we went purely on the inductive reasoning Fox should be below Marth and Falco.
Fox would be high tier.

Its great that o players agree with you but it says nothing about the actual argument for why they believe so.

 

[XienZo]

I don't see any technical advantage whatsoever. The stuff people keep saying about MK's d-tilt shutting down Snake and f-air beating Snake's f-tilt is all exagerrated. Mew2King, the best MK, has trouble beating my Snake when I'm like 10th best Snake at best. That convinces me alone. When I see Forte consistently lose to Snakes and watched Mew2King's Snake 2stock Chillin's MK twice in tourny, I was even more convinced. Too much REAL stuff keeps happening over here that says MK loses.

Yeah, I'm just saying that those "REAL" stuff will be overcome over time(LOL, limit of REAL stuff as time goes to infinite is 0), and we can't use that as proof that the metgame will stay this way.

In the end, the minor things like MK's d-tilt and fair might become more important than the currently huge factors of actual results.

And what happened to gimping? Snake is no Olimar in terms of perfect camping...

 

[Atomsk_92]

*sigh* why i hate this thread XD

And what happened to gimping? Snake is no Olimar

lol gimping? M2K lost to my olimar XD in tourny

and snake can camp MK perfectly fine

 

[XienZo]

*sigh* why i hate this thread XD



lol gimping? M2K lost to my olimar XD in tourny

and snake can camp MK perfectly fine

Oh, but can he "perfect...


Oh no, wait, you should know more about it than me... nvm...

 

[ShadowLink84]

Atomsk it doesn't help if you do not EXPLAIN your reasoning.

 

[memphischains]

i jsut hate when inui posts now

 

[Atomsk_92]

i believe i explained my reasoning behind olimar beating MK like 5000000000 pages ago and i got no response

Oh no, wait, you should know more about it than me... nvm...

btw note how every olimar player who makes fun of the perfect camp thing has ACCOMPLISHED NOTHING vs a top level MK

 

[ShadowLink84]

i believe i explained my reasoning behind olimar beating MK like 5000000000 pages ago and i got no response

you sure you don't mean the Olimar forums where most disagreed with you?

 

[Inui]

i jsut hate when inui posts now

I love how a large portion of your posts are dedicated to insulting me, addressing me, or both. If you really hate when I post, put me on ignore or at least don't respond. You're certainly not proving you hate when I post because you care enough to respond so much and talk about me so much.

you sure you don't mean the Olimar forums where most disagreed with you?

That is because they suck. Atomsk is clearly the best Olimar already. No other Olimars do anything besides BlackWaltz sometimes, who's also in NJ and in agreement that Olimar does well vs MK.

 

[Atomsk_92]

most of the players in the olimar boards don't have players like fourte plank teh_spamerer and m2k in their region so i wouldn't expect them to have experiance vs some of the best MKs

That is because they suck. Atomsk is clearly the best Olimar already. No other Olimars do anything besides BlackWaltz sometimes, who's also in NJ and in agreement that Olimar does well vs MK.

Zori is mad good too dude

 

[XienZo]

btw note how every olimar player who makes fun of the perfect camp thing has ACCOMPLISHED NOTHING vs a top level MK

But... I've been preaching about perfect camping for so long though.... I'm not making fun of it, just saying you would know better than me if Snake can perfect camp.

Which I think he can't, but you'd probably be right.

 

[GofG]

No one replied to my epic post!

 

[Atomsk_92]

lol i can't tell if your serious XD **** teh interweb

 

[NinjaLink]

I love how a large portion of your posts are dedicated to insulting me, addressing me, or both. If you really hate when I post, put me on ignore or at least don't respond. You're certainly not proving you hate when I post because you care enough to respond so much and talk about me so much.



That is because they suck. Atomsk is clearly the best Olimar already. No other Olimars do anything besides BlackWaltz sometimes, who's also in NJ and in agreement that Olimar does well vs MK.

Starzonedge as well. Cant forget him inui :-\

He just doesnt play alot but he has beaten MKs as well.

 

[XienZo]

lol i can't tell if your serious XD **** teh interweb

Well, anyway, WOULD Snake be able to perfect camp MK to the scale of Olimar(where the gimping abilities of MK start to become negated?)

 

[Atomsk_92]

I'd be easier on stages with multiple platforms. However, Snake doesn't have the same camping abilities of Olimar, so it'd be harder on FD IMO

 

[ShadowLink84]

That is because they suck. Atomsk is clearly the best Olimar already. No other Olimars do anything besides BlackWaltz sometimes, who's also in NJ and in agreement that Olimar does well vs MK.

And?
Azen is the most successful Lucario but guess what?? He didn't know alot about Lucario in comparison to other layers who are much lesser than them.
Even if you suck that doesn't mean you are automatically wrong. Again stop holding onto the I am better than you are" argument. Life does not work in such a fashion.

most of the players in the olimar boards don't have players like fourte plank teh_spamerer and m2k in their region so i wouldn't expect them to have experience vs some of the best MKs

yet why hasn't Olimar been rising if he does sooooo well as you and the other pros say? Clearly something is off.
popularity does not skew the results that much. Snake is 12th in terms of popularity and is second in tournament wins.

btw note how every olimar player who makes fun of the perfect camp thing has ACCOMPLISHED NOTHING vs a top level MK

Note how most people who endorse perfect camping also smac down the idea of perfect spacing with MK.
HYPOCRISY FTW!

Not aimed at you.

 

[brinboy789]

Well, anyway, WOULD Snake be able to perfect camp MK to the scale of Olimar(where the gimping abilities of MK start to become negated?)

IMO (to my experiences), snake doesnt really camp MK, he just puts up amazing stage pressure. snake is like god tier at stage pressure, and against a relatively good snake with good stage pressure, the match is downright annoying

again, this is IMO

 

[Atomsk_92]

i posted that last quote btw shadowlink dude XD

 

[Inui]

Starzonedge as well. Cant forget him inui :-\

He just doesnt play alot but he has beaten MKs as well.

I haven't seen him in foreeeeeeeverrrrrrrr. How did he do at the huge PnT in singles?

I know he's really good but I didn't count him because it's been so long since I've heard of him ******. I hope he's still really good because I want to play him. I have a habit of beating really good Olimars.

yet why hasn't Olimar been rising if he does sooooo well as you and the other pros say? Clearly something is off.

The players suck.

Note how most people who endorse perfect camping also smac down the idea of perfect spacing with MK.
HYPOCRISY FTW!

Running around throwing Pikmin perfectly is far more realistic than MK spacing and timing everything perfectly all the time.

 

[Atomsk_92]

I have a habit of beating really good Olimars.

you also have a habbit of getting ***** by em XD

 

[XienZo]

And?
Azen is the most successful Lucario but guess what?? He didn't know alot about Lucario in comparison to other layers who are much lesser than them.
Even if you suck that doesn't mean you are automatically wrong. Again stop holding onto the I am better than you are" argument. Life does not work in such a fashion.


yet why hasn't Olimar been rising if he does sooooo well as you and the other pros say? Clearly something is off.
popularity does not skew the results that much. Snake is 12th in terms of popularity and is second in tournament wins.

Because he's one of the few that DOES know how to deal with MK? And one person can only do so much?

Note how most people who endorse perfect camping also smac down the idea of perfect spacing with MK.
HYPOCRISY FTW!

Not aimed at you.

Perfect spacing isn't unique to MK >_<
Little carrot minions that go and eat attacks or hit or grab enemies from afar with little lag in all directions is unique to Olimar.

Why do you think the crowd chants "PIKMIN! Olimar. PIKMIN! Olimar."