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The Official "Should/Will Metaknight be banned?" Thread (LISTEN TO THE SBR PODCAST!)
- Thread starter SamuraiPanda
- Start date
- Status
Inui
Banned via Warnings
Record vs BlackWaltz: 5-1, and my single loss was because of a 0% SD in a match I clearly would have won and him being able to pick Pictochat due to bad rules. I have beaten him in teams many times with you as my partner.
Record vs your Olimar: 2-2 counting a set I used Snake instead of MK, obviously putting myself at a disadvantage by not using my real main.
When I went to FAST, I beat the best Olimar in the South 2-0.
I've never been ***** by Olimar in a set. I got threestocked in a single match against you, and then won the set anyways. If you're basing what you said on that single match...then whatever.
ShadowLink84
Smash Hero
Atomsk I was copy and pasting thats why inui was there instead of you.
I am too lazy to fix it right now.
I am too lazy to fix it right now.
1048576
Smash Master
- Joined
- Oct 1, 2006
- Messages
- 3,417
This helps your argument how? It seems like you think MK mains are just better players than everybody who uses a different character, and that's the only reason they win so much. I guess I can't disprove that, but it sounds a little far-fetched.
Who? And if they do prove that MKs are better players, that would be for anti-ban, because thats the players ******, not MK.
I'm going to go out on a limb and assume that there's data to back me up that shows that the top players also just happen to use MK and get first in major tournaments.
Atomsk_92
Smash Hero
- Joined
- Jun 8, 2006
- Messages
- 6,362
ShadowLink84
Smash Hero
Just quote the parts you are respond to its too annoying.
Anyways he's ot the only successful olimar considering Olimar's position .
You strawmanned my argument.
The whole point was that if the argument of a perfect camping Olimar is acceptable, then so should a perfect MK.
@atomsk: Use this one.
And thus Olimar is not high on the rankings? Yet.
But in the other "perfect conditions" thread, perfect Olimar>prefect MK.
Well, yes, I'm like the only one who posts, but no one refutes my arguments.
ShadowLink84
Smash Hero
I don't bother with something unless it can be shown to be done reliably. MK' Dtilt is one of those very reliable things.
The problem is that as m2k says it looks like it happens instantly.
He gets caught in the moment so he does not notice it and its only been recently people have been mentioning it.
Like the wise mike tyson said; Everyone has a plan until they get punched in the mouf.
@atomsk: I see the image just fine actually.
brinboy789
Smash Champion
IMO the word "perfect" is throwing people off...i think that what "perfect" camping means is actually heavy camping, or like, EXTREME heavy camping.
theres another thread in TD, about the perfect char. if we can do everything perfect, then wolf for god tier. shine through freakin everything. seriously, no perfect things. i think "perfect" camping refers to EXTREME heavy camping.
but this is IMO. FYI
Overswarm
is laughing at you
- Joined
- May 4, 2005
- Messages
- 21,181
Inui and Mew2King's arguments:
"MK isn't broken! We didn't pick him because he's the best in the game! The best in the game just use him! That is coincidence!"
"....that's silly! We can't ban MK! He has counters! Like uh... Snake! And Olimar!"
"No, of course I don't lose to Olimars! I own them! The only time I lost was because a suicide and that other time I played someone other than MK!"
"...What do you mean? You're stupid, Olimar counters MK."
"MK isn't broken! We didn't pick him because he's the best in the game! The best in the game just use him! That is coincidence!"
"....that's silly! We can't ban MK! He has counters! Like uh... Snake! And Olimar!"
"No, of course I don't lose to Olimars! I own them! The only time I lost was because a suicide and that other time I played someone other than MK!"
"...What do you mean? You're stupid, Olimar counters MK."
ShadowLink84
Smash Hero
You're off .The topic in which Xienzo was referring to refers to frame perfect play.
But if I stop being serious, we'll like talk about FF4 and I'll totally get bored...
ahem so anyway... uh.....
Dtilt is reliable.
So is perfect camping.
perfect camping>dtilt
I just realized cuz of Brinboy that people will misunderstand that perfect camping requires perfect timing and stuff.
Perfect camping is just playing defensively and always using the right moves because Olimar ALWAYS has an answer to an (non Peach, Luigi, etc) approach. NO perfect timing needed at all. Just in case someone thought otherwise.
NinjaLink
Smash Master
Atomsk_92
Smash Hero
- Joined
- Jun 8, 2006
- Messages
- 6,362
*sigh* since somepeople are so biased and ignorant i will once again post why olimar wins
Thankies =^_^=
Inui
Banned via Warnings
When will you post anything of consequence? I can't remember the last time you actually made a real argument about anything.
memphischains
Smash hhkj'
same goes for you
brinboy789
Smash Champion
umm...not kissing iniu's *** or anything, but check the previous page
Inui
Banned via Warnings
Oh, just ignore memphischains. He has dedicated 100% of his posts to insulting me, addressing me, or both, despite saying he doesn't like me or my posts. He should just put me on ignore if he wants to have his actions back his words. I just disregard what he says because his opinion is worthless to me.
Can we go back to Olimar's perfect camping and MK's perfect spacing now? Flaming is boring....
Atomsk_92
Smash Hero
- Joined
- Jun 8, 2006
- Messages
- 6,362
the last things he said that i can recall are"MK isn't light" & "I survived snake's u-air at 180% with MK"
ShadowLink84
Smash Hero
We need a discussion going. Atomsk make an argument rather than mess around for a bit. Just for a few posts.
When mk tornadoes as long as he remains slightly above olimar's head he can stay and attack Olimar with it and avoid being grabbed or ^B'ed.
This is similar to what Peach does with her Dair .
Mk should NEVER attempt to camp with his dairs he doesn't have Peach's float ability so he cannot harass Olimar to the same degree.
He can do a bit of a hover and then he should move away from Olimar's range.
He should play like a Marth. Rather than just hover within a certain distance (camping with Dairs) he should attempt to maintain spacing.
Staying ouside of Olimar's range and then drifting in to attack before drifting away again.
the benefit of having multiple jumps aids him in this though it is not as effective.
Mk can't camp Olimar unless he is at far range and even then i won't accomplish anything.
Olimar can be punished it is difficult but it is not impossible. Again refer to Peach's floating ability.
You must also remember that Olimar has no grab armor so anything that hits him during a grab attempt will work.
Also remember that Mk can maintain himself in the air and quickly move out of range if needed.
The issue is that Olimar needs to actually land the hit and MK's range allows him some breathing room in that he does not have to be as close. The pikmin have crap priority and his nair can be used as both a pikmin killer and an attack.
Can you tell me what combo this is exactly?
usmash does not solve the hovering MK issue.
Similar to his grab the Usmash leaves a blind spot (diagonally) that allows MK to get at him. With the speed and range to MK's attacks this is very doable of occurring.
Hovering works realy well int hat it keeps him out of attack range and allows him to go after Olimars blind spot.
And one Olimar is in the air MK can make things difficult for Olimar because his Uair and Dair mean that FF airdodges and whistle armor don't work as well as they normally would. he cannot be kept in the air indefinitely but once MK has him in the air, Olimar will take a good amount of damage and risk dying early.
This is incorrect Kinda.
When mk tornadoes as long as he remains slightly above olimar's head he can stay and attack Olimar with it and avoid being grabbed or ^B'ed.
This is similar to what Peach does with her Dair .
Mk should NEVER attempt to camp with his dairs he doesn't have Peach's float ability so he cannot harass Olimar to the same degree.
He can do a bit of a hover and then he should move away from Olimar's range.
He should play like a Marth. Rather than just hover within a certain distance (camping with Dairs) he should attempt to maintain spacing.
Staying ouside of Olimar's range and then drifting in to attack before drifting away again.
the benefit of having multiple jumps aids him in this though it is not as effective.
Mk can't camp Olimar unless he is at far range and even then i won't accomplish anything.
Woah this is not true dude.
Olimar can be punished it is difficult but it is not impossible. Again refer to Peach's floating ability.
You must also remember that Olimar has no grab armor so anything that hits him during a grab attempt will work.
Also remember that Mk can maintain himself in the air and quickly move out of range if needed.
The issue is that Olimar needs to actually land the hit and MK's range allows him some breathing room in that he does not have to be as close. The pikmin have crap priority and his nair can be used as both a pikmin killer and an attack.
43-52%?
Can you tell me what combo this is exactly?
usmash does not solve the hovering MK issue.
Similar to his grab the Usmash leaves a blind spot (diagonally) that allows MK to get at him. With the speed and range to MK's attacks this is very doable of occurring.
Hovering works realy well int hat it keeps him out of attack range and allows him to go after Olimars blind spot.
And one Olimar is in the air MK can make things difficult for Olimar because his Uair and Dair mean that FF airdodges and whistle armor don't work as well as they normally would. he cannot be kept in the air indefinitely but once MK has him in the air, Olimar will take a good amount of damage and risk dying early.
Which is why you keep mentioning it. ignore him and if he doesn't do the same to you it says who was better off in the end yes?
NinjaLink
Smash Master
Doesnt Olimars fsmash stop the tornado though? :-\
Either way the tornado doesnt hurt olimar too much being he usually pops out. I popped out without even DIing. Kinda strange.
Btw U can footstool the tornado. I believe some ppl in this thread has seen it. Too ***** funny.
Either way the tornado doesnt hurt olimar too much being he usually pops out. I popped out without even DIing. Kinda strange.
Btw U can footstool the tornado. I believe some ppl in this thread has seen it. Too ***** funny.
ShadowLink84
Smash Hero
It hits too low. If Mk remains just slightly above Olimar's head he can tornado without worry about being grabbed, Fsmash or Usmashed.
Edit: i should sleep i am mixing up names now.
NinjaLink
Smash Master
Read my edit. Also the fatty breaks it lol.
Atomsk_92
Smash Hero
- Joined
- Jun 8, 2006
- Messages
- 6,362
this is where you shield the tornado and grab him afterwards
plus nair beats the nado from above, and if auto cancels into u-smash
also mk pops out of the nado easily XD
f-smash will also beat his attempts to space, since its what stops marth's spacing
during this whole time of drifting away you'll be pelted with vegies and u-air has gay priority
MK isn't peach. Camping into pivot grab when he tries to approach ruins this whole problem of lack of grab armor
no mk isn't safe in the air because of u-smash and u-air plus camping. dam nair knocks them off only to allow you to be grabbed while you land on the ground or spaced f-smash.
d-throw up smash up air
olimar's up smash has stupud range plus its extremly fast, plus note again up air has a gay priority
just camp and space smashs and grabs, this limits your blind spots to none unless you mess up
i agree with this but this doesn't mean olimar doesn't have ways around this
nair has lots of priority
and dair is a good way to get down to
is that a good discussion for you
ShadowLink84
Smash Hero
You edited just as I was editing.
the reason Olimar pops out is because the bottom of the tornado pops the enemy up the way TL's Dsmash hits the opponent into the rest of itself. Combine with Olimar being light and floaty he gets out without having to Di. it is best to Di and get to the ground as fast as possible since Mk can still harass you before you reach the ground after he finishes the tornado.
meh I don't find the footstool useful though its hilarious when it happens.
If I feel I can't harass you with the tornado any longer I'll move away higher than Sh height slightly) and land on the ground with zero lag once i end the tornado.
The Nair doesn't beat the tornado its that it does the same behavior Sonic Fair does when it meets MK's side B. It goes clang clang clang clang until Mk gets hit.
It does help space but I think you're giving it too much credit.
I am pessimistic though.
The uair doesn't necessarily have great priority. I noticed that the pikmin behave similar to specials. The hit gets canceled, with the Uair being multihit this solves the issue.
so if Olimar tries to roll away it just pushes him closer to the edge where he won't be able to pivot grab as easily.
If you try to pivot grab you'll miss.
If you try to Usmash you'll also miss.
An ^B would hit but I am too close and my attack would reach you.
As Mk I cannot maintain the exact pressure that peach does, however I can do something similar and just constantly push you farther and farther away.
i cannot break your defense exactly but I can force you into a position where it will not be as strong.
The aim is not to cause damage directly.
Dair is also not good because it lacks priority.
MK can just Uair to Uair you.
Olimar is just too vulnerable to get back to the ground without incurring a good amount of damage.
i would have to lean towards MK having an advantage primarily because he can pressure Olimar towards the edge and because once Olimar is in the air its going to be tough for Olimar to get back down and resume control.
its not a major advantage I would say at wost 60:40 MK and at best 55:45 MK.
I am just pessimistic when it comes to MK.
the reason Olimar pops out is because the bottom of the tornado pops the enemy up the way TL's Dsmash hits the opponent into the rest of itself. Combine with Olimar being light and floaty he gets out without having to Di. it is best to Di and get to the ground as fast as possible since Mk can still harass you before you reach the ground after he finishes the tornado.
meh I don't find the footstool useful though its hilarious when it happens.
you are misunderstanding. MK will simply remain in an angle wher eyou cannot hit him or jump and nair. MK would ahve to tornado from far away and he'll do it just outside your grab range.
If I feel I can't harass you with the tornado any longer I'll move away higher than Sh height slightly) and land on the ground with zero lag once i end the tornado.
The Nair doesn't beat the tornado its that it does the same behavior Sonic Fair does when it meets MK's side B. It goes clang clang clang clang until Mk gets hit.
the issue though is that Mk won't stay on the ground he'll typically remain int he air near your blind spot like peach. Marth has the disadvantage of not having multijumps and has slightly less range when it comes to safe moves so he can't constantly remain near Olimar's blindspot when in the air.
It does help space but I think you're giving it too much credit.
I am pessimistic though.
This is true but I am sure MK could use his tornado to kill off any pikimin and move him away frmo the Uair.
The uair doesn't necessarily have great priority. I noticed that the pikmin behave similar to specials. The hit gets canceled, with the Uair being multihit this solves the issue.
Of course not but he can behave similarly in which he can pressured Olimar by remaining just above grab range and just far away enough from his usmash that Mk can continuously Dair.
so if Olimar tries to roll away it just pushes him closer to the edge where he won't be able to pivot grab as easily.
If you try to pivot grab you'll miss.
If you try to Usmash you'll also miss.
An ^B would hit but I am too close and my attack would reach you.
As Mk I cannot maintain the exact pressure that peach does, however I can do something similar and just constantly push you farther and farther away.
i cannot break your defense exactly but I can force you into a position where it will not be as strong.
Not completely safe but he s safer and can remain just outside of Olimars range but close enough that he can move in. It isn't completetly safe I admit that, but it a viable position. By nairing I mean double jump Nair not while I am landing on the ground within range of your attacks.
I can land the Usmash but the Uair can be Di'ed away from apparently. maybe I am doing it wrong though.
we must remember though that Mk's range allows him some lenincy and his hovering ability lets him stay out of range of those attacks. He isn't completely safe, not in the way peach is safe but it allows him to approach Olimar effectively.
Your grabs and Fsmashes are not going to work because willa always remain high enough where they cannot reach me. The Usmash can hit Mk but you also have to remember he has the ability to jump away and maintains afety. At which point he can just pressure you towards the edge where your defensive game is hindered to a greater degree.
The aim is not to cause damage directly.
Nair's priority does not compare to any of Mk's aerials.
Dair is also not good because it lacks priority.
MK can just Uair to Uair you.
Olimar is just too vulnerable to get back to the ground without incurring a good amount of damage.
yes but don't chuckle. Its creepy.is that a good discussion for you
i would have to lean towards MK having an advantage primarily because he can pressure Olimar towards the edge and because once Olimar is in the air its going to be tough for Olimar to get back down and resume control.
its not a major advantage I would say at wost 60:40 MK and at best 55:45 MK.
I am just pessimistic when it comes to MK.
NinjaLink
Smash Master
Its useful if they use the tornado below u and u have no attacks to break it.
Actually, since we keep MK's from approaching too close by ground, we normally have ample warning to shield the nado, and then punish it using our range.
Peach can like Dair and retreat and then come back without ever touching the ground. MK touches the ground after he retreats(with the nado) where our range is long enough to punish.
MK's Dair is trickier. I think Olimar has to be more patient on this one.
Anyhow, a pivot grab is virtually unpunishable. Its can be used while fleeing to basically make it so the Pikmin is where Olimar was while Olimar runs. Running towards him gets you grabbed and MK's airspeed can't catchup up within the minimal whiff lag.
Basically, what happens in perfect camping is that pikmin throw forces approach, smashes provide range, grabs cover the low priority, pivot grabs lets you respace to avoid being hit while grabbing, and no character can stay in the air long enough with shield pokers to force Olimar to to edge where he can't pivot. Except Peach.
Oh, and yeah, once he's in the air, he might as well be grabbed by ICs.
But thats the whole point, except of "Don't get grabbed", its "Don't get hit", and like how the "Don't get grabbed" only applies because of IC's terrible grabs, "Don't get hit" only applies because of Olimar's epic defense game.
Peach can like Dair and retreat and then come back without ever touching the ground. MK touches the ground after he retreats(with the nado) where our range is long enough to punish.
MK's Dair is trickier. I think Olimar has to be more patient on this one.
Anyhow, a pivot grab is virtually unpunishable. Its can be used while fleeing to basically make it so the Pikmin is where Olimar was while Olimar runs. Running towards him gets you grabbed and MK's airspeed can't catchup up within the minimal whiff lag.
Basically, what happens in perfect camping is that pikmin throw forces approach, smashes provide range, grabs cover the low priority, pivot grabs lets you respace to avoid being hit while grabbing, and no character can stay in the air long enough with shield pokers to force Olimar to to edge where he can't pivot. Except Peach.
Oh, and yeah, once he's in the air, he might as well be grabbed by ICs.
But thats the whole point, except of "Don't get grabbed", its "Don't get hit", and like how the "Don't get grabbed" only applies because of IC's terrible grabs, "Don't get hit" only applies because of Olimar's epic defense game.
Atomsk_92
Smash Hero
- Joined
- Jun 8, 2006
- Messages
- 6,362
Blah blah blah, most Olimars don't perfect camp because spiking and stuff is more fun, blah blah blah, most Olimars dont get experience against good MKs cuz of region, blah blah blah, Atomsk is really the only one to master this, blah blah blah.
NinjaLink
Smash Master
As i said before. Most olimars dont kno this and they are AZZ!!!!
Inui
Banned via Warnings
^ This.
Why don't the pro-ban people understand that most players are bad or mediocre? It's just a fact of competitive gaming.
I have lost two sets to Atomsk's Olimar in the current season of NJ's rankings, once with Snake and once with Meta Knight, and our last set was 3-2. Atomsk has done very well against Mew2King with Olimar. I beat BlackWaltz 2-1 and every match was really close. Olimar is clearly doing very well over here and the match-up is clearly winnable for Olimar.
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