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The Official "Should/Will Metaknight be banned?" Thread (LISTEN TO THE SBR PODCAST!)
- Thread starter SamuraiPanda
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da K.I.D.
Smash Hero
wow...
Inui is a bad player AND a portable john factory.
i had heard rumors, but now i see for myself lol
for the record, everyone is going to screw up everyonce in a while, so if you have to play perfect just to make him worthwhile in tourneys, than you are explaining why he is a bad character to begin with
btw, i think inui should know all about sonic, from what i heard sonic was the last character to beat him in tourney before he switched to MK
Inui is a bad player AND a portable john factory.
i had heard rumors, but now i see for myself lol
for the record, everyone is going to screw up everyonce in a while, so if you have to play perfect just to make him worthwhile in tourneys, than you are explaining why he is a bad character to begin with
btw, i think inui should know all about sonic, from what i heard sonic was the last character to beat him in tourney before he switched to MK
@Shadowlink:
Poor priority and Olimar shouldn't be in the same sentence, unless there is a negative in there as well ^_^
Priority is a combination of speed range, and location of hitbox in relation to body. Olimar has quick, long distance, disjointed attacks, and thus priority. His upsmash is really fast, and has deceptively large overhead protection. I don't think you method of pressure from above has been tested very much (I know that it can hit G&W out of his d-air, and that's much "safer" attack from above that MK's/Peach's d-air...
Also, don't take statements out of context: he was saying that kirby and rob had ways to beat the nado, he didn't say anything in that post about their overall matchup.
Furthermore, how is Inui flaming OS any different from OS flaming Inui? People have been doing that all thread--it's wrong for both people...
@Inui: you can't flame people's skill and then get upset when they do it. OS was THE ROB, and almost all of Rob's metagame is based around what OS learned. Give him some respect.
Poor priority and Olimar shouldn't be in the same sentence, unless there is a negative in there as well ^_^
Priority is a combination of speed range, and location of hitbox in relation to body. Olimar has quick, long distance, disjointed attacks, and thus priority. His upsmash is really fast, and has deceptively large overhead protection. I don't think you method of pressure from above has been tested very much (I know that it can hit G&W out of his d-air, and that's much "safer" attack from above that MK's/Peach's d-air...
Also, don't take statements out of context: he was saying that kirby and rob had ways to beat the nado, he didn't say anything in that post about their overall matchup.
Furthermore, how is Inui flaming OS any different from OS flaming Inui? People have been doing that all thread--it's wrong for both people...
@Inui: you can't flame people's skill and then get upset when they do it. OS was THE ROB, and almost all of Rob's metagame is based around what OS learned. Give him some respect.
The blade of Wolfs gun throws the pikmin away before they deal any dmg
GnWs dtilt hitbox = huge gl try to throw a pikmin on that...
M2K has said a camping Olimar is very difficult for MK.
Of course, Olimar can't do anything back against a camping MK either so I guess the match is just who can bore the other to tears first.
brinboy789
Smash Champion
Dojo
Smash Champion
Perhaps spam him.... I'd consider that as being able to do something.
Overswarm
is laughing at you
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You know what I do against Olimar?
Well, I used to just pick ROB and that ended the problem quickly.
Now with MK, you know what I do?
I just walk in and knock him off the stage. It isn't difficult. Olimar uses over-b. Oh no. A no-hitstun move that deals damage. How will I ever find a way through this barrage.
Your opponent bruises you, you break his bones. Walk through whatever Olimar is doing, then knock him off the stage. If he is the shielding type rather than the jump+fair type, just do a dash grab and kill him from there.
Well, I used to just pick ROB and that ended the problem quickly.
Now with MK, you know what I do?
I just walk in and knock him off the stage. It isn't difficult. Olimar uses over-b. Oh no. A no-hitstun move that deals damage. How will I ever find a way through this barrage.
Your opponent bruises you, you break his bones. Walk through whatever Olimar is doing, then knock him off the stage. If he is the shielding type rather than the jump+fair type, just do a dash grab and kill him from there.
Dojo
Smash Champion
Lol yeah I don't understand where people are coming out with Oli but meh.
I've never played an over the top great Oli so there's not much I can say about it. The one's I have played I ***** so it's whatever...
I've never played an over the top great Oli so there's not much I can say about it. The one's I have played I ***** so it's whatever...
Dark Sonic
Smash Hero
Marth doesn't have a one frame move, and DB is not getting Olimar off stage with any DI at all.
Run foward and stop outside of Olimar's grab range. Tossing Pikmen at this range is punishable. Jumping at this range is punishable (Sonic's uair is rediculous, and up smash has invincibility frames) Olimar is forced to retreat. Repeat until Olimar runs out of room.
Easier said than done, but still possible.
Luigi player
Smash Master
Isn't Luigis nair > everything Olimar has?
ShadowLink84
Smash Hero
maybe you shouldn't make mistakes and things would be otherwise?
You're automatically assuming if Olimar makes no mistakes no one can approach which we know for a fact to be untrue.
We know he has blindspots and we know several characters can get at them.
We alos know some characters are naturally inclined to force those mistakes.
Are you hitting with the bottom of the tornado?
When are you hitting him? How is his rather laggy Dair capable of still hitting you when you should not be in a position for him to Dair you if he escapes?
We already know that Oerswarm is a skilled ROB user.
Insulting him and saying otherwise does not help your argument. hat goes for Overswarm as well.
Garbage characters? *sigh*
Dude bad characters don't automatically have bad matchups against good ones.
This is individual matchups not overall matchup behavior.
Ask the mainers and they'll explain it to you gladly.
nationally all the data says otherwise.
We also know for a fact that MK>Kirby in speed, range, priority and reliability of kill moves. We also know that Mk has better responses to bad situatins and can get away from those situations while Kirby has a bigger issue.
Either the skill of Chudat and Forte are greater than those other MK's (which is a very real possibility) or some other issue is taking place.
DD vs. Olimar=bad.
Sticking a character who can camp mid range against a character who camps from long range in order to force close range combat is not good. Olimar has a better ability at maintaining the spacing of a fight so its no surprise that he lost.
how close was the fight btw?
Let's totally forget Marth's range, speed, aerial mobility.
Which MK completely outclasses him in (range=safe move which is what marth relies heavily upon in the matchup, mobility Marth is greater).
His ability to setup (which M also beats him out in).
You should know this.
My pet peeve is when people say our best Sonic.
Big deal he is the best in your group, doesn't mean he is very good.
Now that that is out of the way.
Anecdotal evidence does not matter.
underrated? No one doubts Olimar's camping capabilities and power and range.
his recovery yes but nothing else.
Again what strategy did you use agaisnt Olimar? Did you rush?
Flames=bad.
If OS does it call him out on it.
Speed doesn't have anything to do with priority.
Wario has very fast aerials but their priority is not high.
MK has as fast aerials but their priority is higher due tot he range and hitbox/hurtbox ratios.
Olimar' doesn't have high priority. the pikmin give way to alot of moves.
On the ground they give off the idea of priority due tot he damage percentage but aerially, their priority issue is clear.
They are disjointed but they don't behave like a sword.
My mistake on that.
I am speaking with Inui not OS otherwise I would call him out on it as well.
I may have screwed up my quoting.
I laughed at Inui saying Wario can't do anything to Olimar. Not only do most of Wario's attacks destroy Pikmin and hit Olimar at the same time, on the offchance that you get grabbed (which happens rarely), your ftilt connects w/ Oli before he can bring you close to him, breaking the grab. Fsmash owns Pikmin and Oli, if the Oli stops moving at ALL, he's gonna get bitten or shieldgrabbed into ****. Hell, divebomb downairs will wreck Oli's uncharged upsmashes. Oh, and fart not only kills the Pikmin, it also puts Oli beyond recovery, even at 0% if it's been charged for about a minute and a half.
Seriously, if you're wasting time killing pikmin rather than going full on aggressive against Olimar... you're pretty terrible. Olimar cannot keep up with anyone that is aggressive and doesn't give him space, just ****ing hop to avoid his grabs.
Seriously, if you're wasting time killing pikmin rather than going full on aggressive against Olimar... you're pretty terrible. Olimar cannot keep up with anyone that is aggressive and doesn't give him space, just ****ing hop to avoid his grabs.
Olimar has a blindspot if you approach from above at an angle. Peach can take advantage of this with her floating. What can Olimar do then? He can't grab airborn opponents, smashes don't work, and so he either whistles or gets a purple pikmin jumps and chucks it at Peach to get her down, after which he can follow up with a grab or whatever. But a good Peach will not let you any room to breathe. F-air (and D-air) outright destroys Pikmins, camping is thus not as easy as you make it sound if Peach plays aggressively. And Olimar would want to stay at the middle of a stage, not at a ledge. Peach happens to be one of the best edgeguarders of the game because her float enables her to stall right next to the ledge until the appropriate time. Couple that with turnips thrown offstage and Olimar will have an immensively hard time making it back. All of Peach's aerials auto-cancel making F-air to jab a pretty decent approach considering it can't be shieldgrabbed (the jab comes out on the second frame). It also outprioritizes everything Olimar has. D-air combos work pretty well too if you abuse said blindspot.
I'm sorry Inui, but because a character isn't high tier doesn't make him ****ty. Both the Oli and Peach boards agree that Peach has the advantage. Who made you the olimar specialist anyways?
I'm sorry Inui, but because a character isn't high tier doesn't make him ****ty. Both the Oli and Peach boards agree that Peach has the advantage. Who made you the olimar specialist anyways?
Gea
Smash Master
Any argument was lost with a hasty generalization about "garbage characters" and how they fare against Olimar.
Why is this even relevant?
Why is this even relevant?
popsofctown
Smash Champion
Peach eats Olimar. Eats.
Luigi has a pretty good matchup against Olimar. Fireballs will cancel grabs by hitting Olimar, and Luigi's aerials are really good for knocking through a pikmin and hitting olimar in the air.
Luigi has a pretty good matchup against Olimar. Fireballs will cancel grabs by hitting Olimar, and Luigi's aerials are really good for knocking through a pikmin and hitting olimar in the air.
Falco and wolf have reflectors. And therefore can camp back. >_>
And you can always mindgame in a wolf fsmash, which has equal range to Olis grab. You could also get him with a side b or up b as he runs. Oli cant outcamp falco period to boot. Reflector comes out fast enough to stop Olis grab too.
It's not, people just like to start arguing that X character will be unbeatable if MK is gone.
Completely unfounded and generally the start of a slippery slope argument that's been thrashed every time it's been mentioned, but it's a popular thing to get distracted by.
As was commented earlier, it's all been said anyway, except for ways to actually beat MK...so why not get distracted discussing other matchups, that's more interesting anyway.
@Dark Sonic--you're assuming that Olimar is just standing while you run up to him. Otherwise, it's virtually impossible to gauge where that perfect safe spot is.
@Shadowlink--"garbage char" correction--lower tiered characters have tricks to use against higher tiered chars, but in few cases are those actually advantages. Think about the pichu, ness/fox matchup--although they could both combo fox up the wazoo, that didn't give them an advantage, just helped them in one case.
Back to Olimar, people seem to be forgetting that even if the ->B can be easily gone through, in some cases dodged, once you do he can still push you back away with his up-smash, d-smash, etc, which come out quick and are hard to hit through.
--"priority" comment. Speed is a part of it. it's just that all of wario's aerials have hitboxes overlapping the characters body directly, and none protruding out at all, meaning if a char has any move where that isn't the case--even short moves like bowser's jab, or long ones like marth's f-air, he'll be hit instead of clashing. That's why Ike isn't considered as having high priority attacks, even if they have great range, great hitbox, because of the speed. It's a combination.
On ground, they do have priority. They have the priority of a really quick projectile, able to cancel with most attacks, and hit through others, and in some cases just eaten up (marth's fair vs doc's pills)--in which case they are killed. While that makes them a bit weaker than traditional disjointed hitboxes, they still have priority.
@PhantomX: Because of olimar's attack range, wario has to approach. d-air is predictable, and punishable, especially when it's the only viable option--using others to remain unpredictable can get you punished. F-smash has too short a range. It's useful for punishing sloppy olimar spacing, but the brevity of the hitbox, and the abysmal range mean that if you throw it out, you'll be eating a spaced f-smash. Bite too has short range, and leaves you open to punishment if you try using it to do anything but punish mistakes.
to sum up, you are right, if you are playing an olimar that can't space. But one that can space, doesn't grab at a punishable range, and knows how to avoid d-air (shield, and SD d-smash or jumping f-air out of shield--or just run back/run forward depending on how wario moves) + pivot grab.
@Shadowlink--"garbage char" correction--lower tiered characters have tricks to use against higher tiered chars, but in few cases are those actually advantages. Think about the pichu, ness/fox matchup--although they could both combo fox up the wazoo, that didn't give them an advantage, just helped them in one case.
Back to Olimar, people seem to be forgetting that even if the ->B can be easily gone through, in some cases dodged, once you do he can still push you back away with his up-smash, d-smash, etc, which come out quick and are hard to hit through.
--"priority" comment. Speed is a part of it. it's just that all of wario's aerials have hitboxes overlapping the characters body directly, and none protruding out at all, meaning if a char has any move where that isn't the case--even short moves like bowser's jab, or long ones like marth's f-air, he'll be hit instead of clashing. That's why Ike isn't considered as having high priority attacks, even if they have great range, great hitbox, because of the speed. It's a combination.
On ground, they do have priority. They have the priority of a really quick projectile, able to cancel with most attacks, and hit through others, and in some cases just eaten up (marth's fair vs doc's pills)--in which case they are killed. While that makes them a bit weaker than traditional disjointed hitboxes, they still have priority.
@PhantomX: Because of olimar's attack range, wario has to approach. d-air is predictable, and punishable, especially when it's the only viable option--using others to remain unpredictable can get you punished. F-smash has too short a range. It's useful for punishing sloppy olimar spacing, but the brevity of the hitbox, and the abysmal range mean that if you throw it out, you'll be eating a spaced f-smash. Bite too has short range, and leaves you open to punishment if you try using it to do anything but punish mistakes.
to sum up, you are right, if you are playing an olimar that can't space. But one that can space, doesn't grab at a punishable range, and knows how to avoid d-air (shield, and SD d-smash or jumping f-air out of shield--or just run back/run forward depending on how wario moves) + pivot grab.
Considering the community and the way new players tend to whine (And some veterans too), the SS argument in this case is more valid, though not so much more than usual.
It's completely invalid. There will be nothing close to the popular support against anyone else because there are strategies that can be used successfully against everyone who isn't MK. It's why Sheik was never banned in Melee, or ever got so much support built up to ban her in the first place.
Do you honestly think that the precedent alone will be enough to convince otherwise intelligent people that other characters should be banned? There's no basis for such a belief, the people who consistently make the best points in support of banning MK are not that stupid. The general population whining is not nearly enough to push a ban through.
You do know that Wario can autocancel dair into bite or a shieldgrab, right? And Wario has more than enough DI to jump in with an attack and then get out if he must. The point of fsmash isn't necessarily to hit Olimar, but it can kill Pikmin, keeping Wario safe. The thing that Olimar has to make this even-ish is that Oli's uptilt beats almost everything of Warios (and his fair is great if you can get it out, too) and Pikmin still rack up damage like a *****. Even then, though, an Oli will have a hard time keeping up w/ Wario's pressure. Oli, unlike most, cannot survive without spacing due to his fragility, and Wario is the master of closing distance and pressuing w/o fail, add to that his ability to gimp and farts being uber and you've got a difficult time dealing w/ him. There's a reason the best this matchup has ever been for Oli is even. Wario is also much more diverse and effective w/ his recovery, making counterpicks much less effective against him than they would be Olimar. And what I mentioned about the ftilt holds true at any range, if you manage to land within grab range and they do it, your ftilt will hit them out of it. If Oli fsmashes, you clank with it.
I spent hours playing an Oli this past TH and he knows what he's doing with the uptilts/nairs, the spacing/pivot grabs/grabs, and the keeping track of the Pikmin colors. You can toss all the Pikmin you want, but you're not fast enough to keep Wario away. He's also one of the few that can kill you just by holding the ledge as you die, as his recovery is good enough to survive most Pikmin Chain stage spikes.
ShadowLink84
Smash Hero
You misunderstand.
if I am using a low tier character that does not mean as soon as I face a specific high tier character that I am at an immediate disadvantage.
That is a specific matchup which depends ont he properties of both characters.
At some points it can be 60/40 disdvantage thought he lower tiered character can combo the high tier charcter to death (i.e. Link vs Marth).
In some cases the low tier character may have an advantage in the matchup. (can't think of any off the top of my head).
the problem though is that his Usmash and Dsmash both have blind spots.
If I am using Peach, I can get through his side B easily, float, and perssure with my Dairs and Fairs without Olimar being capable of retaliating in anyway.
Dude that supports my argument. That is hurtboxhitbox that does not involve speed in anyway.
Speed would be if a 2 frame move with the same hurtbox/hitbox ratio beats out a 10 frame move with the exact same ratio when their hitboxes are out at the same time.
We know for a fact though that the speed only means he has a better chance of hitting FIRST. If both of them have their hitboxes out they will exchange hits. (or in the case of disjointed moves, not hit at all)
Ike has very high priority, hell is Fair has the longest range and breaks every single move in the game.
His speed however means he cannot make use of that priority it does not affect the priority directly in anyway.
well what i mean by no priority is an exaggeration. They ahve a little priroity but they hve much less.
If Olimar's fsmash connects with the weakest Fsmash (first hit of TL's Fsmash I think0 Olimar's pikmin will break every time.
They have priority but it is small in comparison to others.
The speed makes up for this though.
I must interject again.
While Wario is forced to approach and is predictable, by no means is he asily punished. Coupled with his high aerial movement and aerial mobility, is very difficult for Olimar to react and attack Wario. Fsmash has poor range as does bite.
Waht makes Wario do well is because he can get at Olimar's blind spot and even if he misses, can move away without high risk of injuy. not as safe as Marth but still safe.
Wrong. It isn't that Olimar can't space, its that he CANNOT space.
Peach's Dair/Fair do not allow Olimar to maintain his spacing. At best he can dodge away from Peach to get away. He cannot maintain spacing because Peach WILL kill his pikmin just like sonic kills them. He can play keep away for a good amount of time but the results will be the same. He cannot get at peach because she can stay in his blindspot and remain completely safe.
Terios the Hedgehog
Smash Hero
CRAP! I thought I understood simple contractions. ****it.
Dark Sonic
Smash Hero
No, I'm assuming that they're jumping and throwing Pikmen, while moving either foward or backward while doing so, in order to make me approach hopping that I will overshoot my distance and run right into their range.
Well, Sonic covers all of FD in the time it takes for Olimar to land. And even if I'm off on that perfect distance, I can just err on the side of safety (be a little farther than I need to be). It's not like I have to be exactly outside of Olimar's grab range to be in range to punish him.
Also, you underestimate people. It's not virtually impossible to gauge where the safe spot is (it's actually quite large, I just have to be in range to punish a Pikmen throw), just as it's not virtually impossible to maintain tipper spacing with Marth, or space MK's d-tilt, or Snake's up-tilt, or space attacks to hit through tornado, or whatever. It just takes practice and...matchup experience.
edit:Just to be clear, I'm in no way saying that Sonic has an advantage against Olimar. If that is what is implied in my post, then I appologize. What I am saying is that Olimar's camping game is being highly exagerated.
But I do believe that Sonic vs Olimar is a very close matchup regardless, perhaps a little bit in Olimar's favor. But just a little bit.
Blame the guy who inaccurately said "an Olimar that can't space" instead of "an Olimar who isn't good enough to space", then it makes sense to say can't as a correction.
Terios the Hedgehog
Smash Hero
I was just being a grammar Nazi. Calm down.
I'm likely at least as calm as you.
If you can be overly nitpicky, why can't I?
rehab
Smash Journeyman
Because he's joking, you aren't apparently.
Falconv1.0
Smash Master
Good God this discussion has become a ***** fest.
Terios the Hedgehog
Smash Hero
YAY! Rehab to my rescue <3
I hope you're who I think you are or this is awkward.
Although for the sake of being on topic, WHY is there a Sonic vs. Olimar discussion going on in a MK thread?
I hope you're who I think you are or this is awkward.
Although for the sake of being on topic, WHY is there a Sonic vs. Olimar discussion going on in a MK thread?
I am completely serious.
In fact, every post I have ever made is completely serious. I totally lack a sense of humor or the ability to appreciate irony.
Nothing I have said so far in this post is true.
Everything I have said so far in this post is true.
...good luck analyzing that one.
B/Cs the MKs (well, Inui) claim that Olimar will be unbeatable with MK gone.
Falconv1.0
Smash Master
Because apparently we got bored.
Or maybe it's because most of intelligent people leave early on after seeing the same thing every other page, so you get left with **** that leads into more pointless discussion.
Better than having multiple topics *****ing about MK I guess.
I thought it was a Wario Vs Olimar discussion? >_< WTF, this thread needs to get on topic again... BAN MK I SAY, BAN MK SO WE CAN STOP THIS STUPID THREAD.
#HBC | Red Ryu
Red Fox Warrior
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I questioning how people think the games viability will improve if MK leaves?
For most characters he's not even their worst match-up.
Lucario has more fear of Game & Watch and Marth over Metaknight.
The only characters that would improve a bit would be IC's and Pit and by bit I mean a little.
Marth however, loses his one bad match-up, unless you count Snake's 45-55 on him.
For most characters he's not even their worst match-up.
Lucario has more fear of Game & Watch and Marth over Metaknight.
The only characters that would improve a bit would be IC's and Pit and by bit I mean a little.
Marth however, loses his one bad match-up, unless you count Snake's 45-55 on him.
Terios the Hedgehog
Smash Hero
It's not that MK is everyones WORST matchup it's that he is a safe pick.
I'm still antiban for the time being.
I'm still antiban for the time being.
Not just a safe pick -- he's *the* safe pick. Nobody else is a better choice when you don't know who your opponent will be playing as.
If he's gone, there will be nobody who is entirely safe to choose, even Marth has a couple slightly disadvantaged matchups (And those can be made worse depending on the stage)
Falconv1.0
Smash Master
I keep going back on the fence on an MK ban, I think he's a bit too safe for any logical reason to pick someone else, but he's not uber pwnage. 60:40 doesn't mean you will win every match or even most matches against an equally skilled player.
Terios the Hedgehog
Smash Hero
Which is exactly why he SHOULDN'T be banned.
And yeah. It does kinda mean he should win MOST.
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