The Official "Should/Will Metaknight be banned?" Thread (LISTEN TO THE SBR PODCAST!)

[OverLade]

Now, this may contradict what I said about Meta Knight staying allowed because he's not broken and that being the best reason, but that still stands. You have to prove he makes the game suck. If you ban excessive stalling and ledgecamping, then he can't make the game suck because he can't abuse the ledge.

Nadospam makes the game suck.

People make arguements that you can counter nadospam and everything, but the thing is that most peopel that spam nado suck, so it's easy to counter. When DSF played Meep's Snake, Meep got ***** because DSF was smart about spamming nado. If you pressure your opponent into positions where they can't counter nado (in the air, as some characters have no aerial moves that go through it).

I saw your matches vs. Atomsk's D3 so you know what I'm talking about. The only reason Metaknight doesn't dominate every single tourney is because people choose not to be extremely gay with him, though the occasional Snake, or diddy manage to beat him. But if M2K chose to intelligently spam nado, nobody would get anywhere close to beating him.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Redhalberd you're wrong. Atomsk used Dedede and he's one of the characters, that gets ***** by the Nado. But there are some, who can beat it with a dair after DI up-away from it (in fact they can even deal more dmg than the nado)

 

[Inui]

Don't you think, that Brawl would be a better game without MK, Inui?

Not at all. Olimar's gay enough already while having a character that gimps him. Dedede is ******** enough while having a character that ***** him. It will just make other characters more gay, or even GAYER in the cases of Dedede and Olimar.

Excessive stalling is already banned and Ledgecamping more or less cannot be banned as there will always be loopholes that players can exploit, so this doesn't really lend itself to your argument.

Ban staying on the ledge too long.

Nadospam makes the game suck.

People make arguements that you can counter nadospam and everything, but the thing is that most peopel that spam nado suck, so it's easy to counter. When DSF played Meep's Snake, Meep got ***** because DSF was smart about spamming nado. If you pressure your opponent into positions where they can't counter nado (in the air, as some characters have no aerial moves that go through it).

I saw your matches vs. Atomsk's D3 so you know what I'm talking about. The only reason Metaknight doesn't dominate every single tourney is because people choose not to be extremely gay with him, though the occasional Snake, or diddy manage to beat him. But if M2K chose to intelligently spam nado, nobody would get anywhere close to beating him.

I'm only going to include good characters in this...

Characters that DESTROY the tornado and make using it an extremely bad idea:
-Meta Knight
-Marth
-Olimar
-Diddy Kong
-Game and Watch

Characters with really good answers to tornado:
-Snake
-Falco
-Toon Link
-R.O.B.
-Lucario
-Zero Suit Samus
-Kirby

DSF is far above Meep's level, so that hardly shows what happens at high level or when players are of even skill. DSF is widely considered 3rd in the nation while Meep can't even claim to be top 10 in Atlantic North, despite being pretty good anyways.

 

[Overswarm]

Inui, you included ROB on a list of characters with really good answers to tornado.

That's ********.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Not at all. Olimar's gay enough already while having a character that gimps him. Dedede is ******** enough while having a character that ***** him. It will just make other characters more gay, or even GAYER in the cases of Dedede and Olimar.

But it will spread around better.
Without MK there's no character that has less than two bad match-up's. That would be far more interesting as it makes different character combos possible. I think it's more fun this way.

 

[aeghrur]

Wobbling made Melee suck because it was just...ICs get a grab, you die after a long time of getting hit. Dedede's infinites make the game suck because they negate several characters that have no business getting negated. Walk-offs and walled stages make the game suck for the same reasons they did in Melee except the stuff you do with them now got more boring.

Now, this may contradict what I said about Meta Knight staying allowed because he's not broken and that being the best reason, but that still stands. You have to prove he makes the game suck. If you ban excessive stalling and ledgecamping, then he can't make the game suck because he can't abuse the ledge.

For ICs- Don't get grabbed?
DDD- Don't use DK? Stay in the air?
And MK can still abuse lagless aerials right? He can still spam his Up-B and Nado right? Ugh, those moves make the game suck... but that's just my opinion. Seriously, are we getting anywhere by saying that you can only ban a character by making the game suck? Because that comment won't get us ANYWHERE since we all have different opinions on what makes the game suck. Hell, the game itself sucks compared to melee, let's ban brawl.

 

[otg]

Anything that makes the game garbage should be banned.

While I do agree, this community shouldn't be forced into a position to make a ban. The fact of the matter is, Brawl is piss poor in terms of its competitive scene, and while I respect you guys for doing everything you can to salvage it, it's a sinking ship guys.

What will you guys ban after you Ban MK? How far will we have to go until everyone's happy?

 

[luige4life120]

yes Meta Knight should be banned i hate him

 

[aeghrur]

While I do agree, this community shouldn't be forced into a position to make a ban. The fact of the matter is, Brawl is piss poor in terms of its competitive scene, and while I respect you guys for doing everything you can to salvage it, it's a sinking ship guys.

What will you guys ban after you Ban MK? How far will we have to go until everyone's happy?

Come on man, slope fallacy theory again? >_> How many times do we have to say, WE WON'T BAN ANYONE ELSE, THAT THEORY DOESN'T HOLD TRUE!!! They're still arguing rather or not to ban metaknight. Even if they decide to try and ban someone else, it'll take like, 6 freaking years. >_>

 

[Andydark]

I'm sure it's been said, but Metaknight being on top perhaps stifles the metagame development for underused characters who get ***** by the masked puffball.

But, this argument only holds for characters who are a bit worse off than the rest as it is.

Anyway. I'll admit to being sort of n00bish, but eh...

 

[Sylentwind]

yes, he is the most noob friendly character evar created...

 

[rehab]

imo GW is worse in terms of a nub friendliness to results ratio.

 

[OverLade]

Not at all. Olimar's gay enough already while having a character that gimps him. Dedede is ******** enough while having a character that ***** him. It will just make other characters more gay, or even GAYER in the cases of Dedede and Olimar.



Ban staying on the ledge too long.



I'm only going to include good characters in this...

Characters that DESTROY the tornado and make using it an extremely bad idea:
-Meta Knight
-Marth
-Olimar
-Diddy Kong
-Game and Watch

Characters with really good answers to tornado:
-Snake
-Falco
-Toon Link
-R.O.B.
-Lucario
-Zero Suit Samus
-Kirby

DSF is far above Meep's level, so that hardly shows what happens at high level or when players are of even skill. DSF is widely considered 3rd in the nation while Meep can't even claim to be top 10 in Atlantic North, despite being pretty good anyways.

Kirby, ROB are arguable, as in the air, Kirby has no realistic options against nado, not only is airgame a lot of kirby's focus, but Metaknight has better pressure game. I won't disagree that Kirby doesn't have many viable options against MK though. I'd also say Wario can outspace and dair punish nado pretty well.

Even so, this all looks good on paper, but in a real match, nobody is going to be able to react to every well placed nado. Once characters are in the air, most have few options against nado.

Nado isn't the end all tactic or anything, but in general, it DOES make the game gay, as anybody who isn't very skilled or using a high tier character has no chance.

Redhalberd you're wrong. Atomsk used Dedede and he's one of the characters, that gets ***** by the Nado. But there are some, who can beat it with a dair after DI up-away from it (in fact they can even deal more dmg than the nado)

Some characters for a start. And do you have any videos showign this, because I'm pretty sure you cant pop out of nado at just any time. I may be wrong, but I'd like to see some evidence of this, because I've never heard it before. If you prove me wrong, then I'm sorry for doubting you.

 

[Snowstalker]

While I do agree, this community shouldn't be forced into a position to make a ban. The fact of the matter is, Brawl is piss poor in terms of its competitive scene, and while I respect you guys for doing everything you can to salvage it, it's a sinking ship guys.

What will you guys ban after you Ban MK? How far will we have to go until everyone's happy?

Nothing. All other characters have counters. Snake has DK, Pikachu, Olimar, etc. for instance. My main, Yoshi, is destroyed by Lucario and Mr. Game & Watch.

 

[Lonestar_Phoenixxx]

i dont really have trouble with MK as a lucario main, even as mario, with a well placed high priority move, his non-recovery moves put him at a disadvantage. A fighting game shouldnt be and isnt about who uses the best character. its about the skill of the person playing. ( or at least it should be).

 

[XienZo]

Ooh, are we getting to the part where banning MK is good for Olimar?

Olimar's only gay when you're getting grabbed by him.
He's awesome when you're grabbing as him.

MK is gay when you're getting gimped
MK is gay when you're gimping everyone else.

MK's just jealous he doesn't have any minions to form a fortress around him.

Olimar-overrun metagame>MK overrun metagame

 

[Parker1006]

i dont really have trouble with MK as a lucario main, even as mario, with a well placed high priority move, his non-recovery moves put him at a disadvantage. A fighting game shouldnt be and isnt about who uses the best character. its about the skill of the person playing. ( or at least it should be).

the sad thing is, at the end of the day it isn't. I hope metaknight isn't banned. then the competitive brawl scene will devolve into MK vs MK and more people will play melee.

 

[Crackle]

the sad thing is, at the end of the day it isn't. I hope metaknight isn't banned. then the competitive brawl scene will devolve into MK vs MK and more people will play melee.

If the decision to ban MK is made, it should be made early on. I know, this is very easily contradicted by the fact that development is important, but everyone is band-wagoning MK while he's still allowed and its detracting from game development overall.

Plus, if someone mains MK for a year, and then has his character banned, chances are he will have a hard time picking up the game seriously and placing well again.

 

[salaboB]

Olimar-overrun metagame>MK overrun metagame

Olimar is kinda ... weird, to play. I don't think he's going to overrun the metagame even if he becomes the best character if MK is gone, just because he'll be so unintuitive for people to pick up and master.

 

[§leepy God]

Viper JLT4GOV's quote on if Meta Knight get's banned. -_-;

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=5670942&postcount=11

Anywho, is there anybody that did this in a tourney yet? Were they happy, or does it feel wierd?

 

[rehab]

How2p Olimar, abridg'd version:

Use smashes, don't be dumb with them

Use grabs, who cares if you're dumb with them so long as you don't let lack of grab armor stop you

Never leave center stage

Don't get counterpicked

Exaggeration, but yeah.

 

[Crackle]

I love bad Olimar Players...You can predict their tether and use invincible frames so easily..

 

[Justblaze647]

lol... even a good Olimar player can't save himself from that trash up-b

 

[Crackle]

I like Wheaties. Best cereal imo

 

[Lord Viper]

Viper JLT4GOV's quote on if Meta Knight get's banned. -_-;

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=5670942&postcount=11

Wow, someone cared what I think, even though it's a joke. XD

 

[St. Viers]

Nado isn't the end all tactic or anything, but in general, it DOES make the game gay, as anybody who isn't very skilled or using a high tier character has no chance.

people's lack of skill should have no bearing on this discussion ^_^

 

[Fletch]

Hell, the game itself sucks compared to melee, let's ban brawl.

Now we're getting somewhere.

 

[Inui]

Inui, you included ROB on a list of characters with really good answers to tornado.

That's ********.

ROB is a floaty and can easily DI out and then punish Meta Knight. NinjaLink has done this to me many times.

Laser and gyro beat tornado.

It's not my fault that you suck? NinjaLink doesn't let me use tornado.

Without MK there's no character that has less than two bad match-up's. That would be far more interesting as it makes different character combos possible. I think it's more fun this way.

Olimar will only have Marth...and that's debatable. I'm convinced he's possibly the best character at this point. What actually counters Olimar?

imo GW is worse in terms of a nub friendliness to results ratio.

yes, he is the most noob friendly character evar created...

Yup.

Game and Watch is the most rewarded for random nonsense and the least punished for random nonsense.

Kirby, ROB are arguable, as in the air, Kirby has no realistic options against nado, not only is airgame a lot of kirby's focus, but Metaknight has better pressure game. I won't disagree that Kirby doesn't have many viable options against MK though. I'd also say Wario can outspace and dair punish nado pretty well.

Even so, this all looks good on paper, but in a real match, nobody is going to be able to react to every well placed nado. Once characters are in the air, most have few options against nado.

Kirby can instantly DI out of it and then punish it with d-air. His d-b beats it, obviously. His f-smash eats right through it, too. Unless the Kirby sucks, you'll only do about 4% with tornado and he gets out right away.

Ooh, are we getting to the part where banning MK is good for Olimar?

Olimar's only gay when you're getting grabbed by him.
He's awesome when you're grabbing as him.

MK is gay when you're getting gimped
MK is gay when you're gimping everyone else.

MK's just jealous he doesn't have any minions to form a fortress around him.

Olimar-overrun metagame>MK overrun metagame

No, you don't understand because you haven't played the best Olimars like I have.

You can't approach him. There is no such thing as a safe method to approach an Olimar that is camping properly. That's incredibly stupid and makes him the best character, imo.

Without a character like Meta Knight that has some sort of chance to get gimps on him(that's after Meta Knight works around the Great Fortress of Olimar), Olimar will be unstoppable. He only loses to...I'd say slightly to Marth and that's it. He's **** and too underrated.

"but just gimp him"

That involves somehow approaching him.

Olimar is kinda ... weird, to play. I don't think he's going to overrun the metagame even if he becomes the best character if MK is gone, just because he'll be so unintuitive for people to pick up and master.

How to play Olimar:
-Run away and throw Pikmin.
-Punish everything with grabs because your grab usually can't be punished or sidestepped.
-Abuse your extremely fast and nearly unpunishable smashes.
-If your opponent is above you, just mash up smash. It's fast, has good priority, and doesn't have any recovery time at all.
-Stay safe and on the ground, which is easy because nobody can approach you.

Wow, what a super hard character right there.

 

[rehab]

Olimar has trouble with rob, gw, mebbe wario iirc

 

[OverLade]

No, you don't understand because you haven't played the best Olimars like I have.

You can't approach him. There is no such thing as a safe method to approach an Olimar that is camping properly. That's incredibly stupid and makes him the best character, imo.

Without a character like Meta Knight that has some sort of chance to get gimps on him(that's after Meta Knight works around the Great Fortress of Olimar), Olimar will be unstoppable. He only loses to...I'd say slightly to Marth and that's it. He's **** and too underrated.

"but just gimp him"

That involves somehow approaching him.

I can see Falco working well against Olimar. You can camp him and reflect his pikmin. I think Pikmin stop lasers, but it'll still be far more frustrating for the olimar player, as Falco can keep shooting lasers and phantasm through him to get damage. If falco does manage to get a grab below 10% it's an instant stock, spike plus edghog. It'd basically be a match of who can be more gay.

I can also see Wolf, Wario, are capable beating a camping Olimar. Wolf has range and speed enough to punish his gay smashes. Because he falls fast manuevering around Olimar wouldn't be impossible. Wario also moves extremely fast in the air to where you could probably punish a lot of his gay disjointed moves.

I haven't tested the mathcups myself, but olimars shield wont last forever, and he'll eventually have to approach you where you can punish him.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Olimar will only have Marth...and that's debatable. I'm convinced he's possibly the best character at this point. What actually counters Olimar?

Marth, ROB, GnW, Wolf and Kirby

Edit: And Peach

 

[Inui]

Apparently Olimar players aren't camping enough, because I don't see how those characters, especially can't-do-anything-but-camp ROB, can approach Olimar if he's camping intelligently. Chibo, a decent ROB over here, says Olimar wins. BlackWaltz, a top Olimar, says Olimar wins. Hmm HMM.

I haven't tested the mathcups myself, but olimars shield wont last forever, and he'll eventually have to approach you where you can punish him.

Who says Olimar is ever shielding? He's running away and throwing Pikmin. When you finally get near him, you already dimished your moves and took lots of damage. And then you have to somehow safely attack him when he has a 6 frame gigantic grab you can't normally sidestep.

 

[rehab]

(notsarcastic or anything) How does Olimar camp>ROB camp? How does Olimar force him to approach?

 

[salaboB]

Who says Olimar is ever shielding? He's running away and throwing Pikmin. When you finally get near him, you already dimished your moves and took lots of damage. And then you have to somehow safely attack him when he has a 6 frame gigantic grab you can't normally sidestep.

Because you're chasing him and stupidly spamming your best moves while he's retreating and throwing pikmin at you ... ?

Matchup theories that pit one smart player against a stupid one rarely work out in practice.

 

[Dalub]

I hate fighting MK, but it doesnt mean that he should be banned he is a chart. I think he shouldn't be banned.
I think banning MK is kinda because of tier list....

 

[Inui]

(notsarcastic or anything) How does Olimar camp>ROB camp? How does Olimar force him to approach?

Olimar's f-b forces EVERYONE to approach him because it's the most versatile projectile in the game and very fast.

Because you're chasing him and stupidly spamming your best moves while he's retreating and throwing pikmin at you ... ?

Matchup theories that pit one smart player against a stupid one rarely work out in practice.

Okay, so how do you beat him without chasing him? Explain this to me. I mean, I've taken out plenty of top Olimars in tourny, namely Fearless, BlackWaltz (many times), and PyronicStar, but it's always based on me rushing in and praying they mess up their camping, which they do.

Atomsk's Olimar doesn't mess up nearly as much. I was FUCKED when I played him.

 

[salaboB]

Okay, so how do you beat him without chasing him? Explain this to me. I mean, I've taken out plenty of top Olimars in tourny, namely Fearless, BlackWaltz (many times), and PyronicStar, but it's always based on me rushing in and praying they mess up their camping, which they do.

Atomsk's Olimar doesn't mess up nearly as much. I was ****** when I played him.

I never said don't chase, I said don't chase while whiffing your best moves into his pikmin.

 

[ShadowLink84]

ROB is a floaty and can easily DI out and then punish Meta Knight. NinjaLink has done this to me many times.

That is probably because you are a beng unsafe when you tornado.
Do you not realize that in comparison to other characters ROb's aerials are rather slow in startup. you should already be out of the way by the time he does it.

Laser and gyro beat tornado.

don't tornado from far away then .
let alone that it doesn't stop the rest of MK's options.

It's not my fault that you suck? NinjaLink doesn't let me use tornado.

You've just completely destroyed yourself with that statement.

Olimar will only have Marth...and that's debatable. I'm convinced he's possibly the best character at this point. What actually counters Olimar?

MK, Peach, Luigi, wario is pain as well.
Wolf

Kirby can instantly DI out of it and then punish it with d-air. His d-b beats it, obviously. His f-smash eats right through it, too. Unless the Kirby sucks, you'll only do about 4% with tornado and he gets out right away.

How does this reflect in anyway the overall matchup?
Even if Kirby can consistently break MK's tornado, that in no way means Kirby can deal with the rest of MK's game.
Just being able to berak the tornado means nothing if you can't stop all of MK's arsenal.

No, you don't understand because you haven't played the best Olimars like I have.

Anecdotal evidence need not apply.
your own success or failure has no reflection upon the argument.

You can't approach him. There is no such thing as a safe method to approach an Olimar that is camping properly. That's incredibly stupid and makes him the best character, imo.

lol wut?
Olimar has poor priority and is restricted to the ground.
Peachf or example using floating Dairs to pressure him .
Considering MK has greater range and greater speed than Peach as well as the ability to remain in the air, you should not ahve an issue with Olimar.

Without a character like Meta Knight that has some sort of chance to get gimps on him(that's after Meta Knight works around the Great Fortress of Olimar), Olimar will be unstoppable. He only loses to...I'd say slightly to Marth and that's it. He's **** and too underrated.

marth<Mk in terms of speed and range.
If marth is capable of dealing with Olimar, there is absolutely no reason Mk cannot deal with him.
Especially since MK can do everything Marth can do but better.

"but just gimp him"

That involves somehow approaching him.

Sonic users do it all the time.

How to play Olimar:
-Run away and throw Pikmin.
-Punish everything with grabs because your grab usually can't be punished or sidestepped.
-Abuse your extremely fast and nearly unpunishable smashes.
-If your opponent is above you, just mash up smash. It's fast, has good priority, and doesn't have any recovery time at all.
-Stay safe and on the ground, which is easy because nobody can approach you.

Wow, what a super hard character right there.

Really? if Olimar is sooo easy then people should be placing with him alot higher than they do now.
Which they don't. MK on the other hand, does.

Olimar's f-b forces EVERYONE to approach him because it's the most versatile projectile in the game and very fast.

Not ROb and Wolf. both of them outcamp him from afar which is why Olimar wants to remain in midrange. That is where he can zone and camp.

Okay, so how do you beat him without chasing him? Explain this to me. I mean, I've taken out plenty of top Olimars in tourny, namely Fearless, BlackWaltz (many times), and PyronicStar, but it's always based on me rushing in and praying they mess up their camping, which they do.

Why are you rushing? if you are Marth or MK you have no need to rush like a fool.
Space and make use of your range and aerial manueverability.
Do what peach does and zone him. Take advantage of your aerial capabilities.

Atomsk's Olimar doesn't mess up nearly as much. I was FUCKED when I played him.

Stop censor bypassing. You'll be taken more seriusly if you don't have to curse.
Atomsk 's Olimar is better than you then. Simple as that.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Olimar's f-b forces EVERYONE to approach him because it's the most versatile projectile in the game and very fast.

Not true. Wolfs blaster and GnWs dtilt beat it. He can't force them to approach

 

[Inui]

Okay, that helps the dimishing issue. I usually spam n-air to get rid of Pikmin because it always works and hitting Olimar with that move barely happens anyways. I know how to deal with the issue of dimishing your moves, but it's still annoying.

Actually approaching when the Olimar isn't making mistakes is another story.

That is probably because you are a beng unsafe when you tornado.
Do you not realize that in comparison to other characters ROb's aerials are rather slow in startup. you should already be out of the way by the time he does it.

No. Safe tornado spam is what made me beat Atomsk and Bum and win teams. I know what I'm doing. ROB can get out INSTANTLY. The moment it hits him, he EASILY gets out. It's terrible against ROB.

You've just completely destroyed yourself with that statement.

Why?

MK, Peach, Luigi, wario is pain as well.
Wolf

I strongly disagree. Olimar players clearly don't camp enough if those garbage characters that can't approach are considered counters.

How does this reflect in anyway the overall matchup?
Even if Kirby can consistently break MK's tornado, that in no way means Kirby can deal with the rest of MK's game.
Just being able to berak the tornado means nothing if you can't stop all of MK's arsenal.

MD/VA players think the match is even. ChuDat has beaten Forte's MK and other MKs in tourny many times with Kirby. What actually has happened in tournaments proves Kirby can win.

lol wut?
Olimar has poor priority and is restricted to the ground.
Peachf or example using floating Dairs to pressure him .
Considering MK has greater range and greater speed than Peach as well as the ability to remain in the air, you should not ahve an issue with Olimar.

Like I have said many times, Olimar players CLEARLY aren't camping enough. When Atomsk camped me in tourny and in crews yesterday, approaching him with Meta Knight wasn't possible. I had to wait for blatant mistakes, which he didn't make. When BlackWaltz decided to camp Atomsk's Dedede MASSIVELY, Atomsk couldn't win.

marth<Mk in terms of speed and range.
If marth is capable of dealing with Olimar, there is absolutely no reason Mk cannot deal with him.
Especially since MK can do everything Marth can do but better.

Nope.

Marth's magical 1-frame move and 4-frame punisher that gets Olimar off the stage > MK's options.

Sonic users do it all the time.

I've yet to see Blue, our best Sonic, beat BlackWaltz. They are relatively the same in skill.

Really? if Olimar is sooo easy then people should be placing with him alot higher than they do now.
Which they don't. MK on the other hand, does

It's not my fault that people don't play him because he's extremely underrated. And those that do play him, obviously don't camp enough.

That is probably because you are a beng unsafe when you tornado.
Do you not realize that in comparison to other characters ROb's aerials are rather slow in startup. you should already be out of the way by the time he does it.

No. Safe tornado spam is what made me beat Atomsk and Bum and win teams. I know what I'm doing. ROB can get out INSTANTLY. The moment it hits him, he EASILY gets out. It's terrible against ROB.

You've just completely destroyed yourself with that statement.

Why?

MK, Peach, Luigi, wario is pain as well.
Wolf

I strongly disagree. Olimar players clearly don't camp enough if those garbage characters that can't approach are considered counters.

How does this reflect in anyway the overall matchup?
Even if Kirby can consistently break MK's tornado, that in no way means Kirby can deal with the rest of MK's game.
Just being able to berak the tornado means nothing if you can't stop all of MK's arsenal.

MD/VA players think the match is even. ChuDat has beaten Forte's MK and other MKs in tourny many times with Kirby. What actually has happened in tournaments proves Kirby can win.

lol wut?
Olimar has poor priority and is restricted to the ground.
Peachf or example using floating Dairs to pressure him .
Considering MK has greater range and greater speed than Peach as well as the ability to remain in the air, you should not ahve an issue with Olimar.

Like I have said many times, Olimar players CLEARLY aren't camping enough. When Atomsk camped me in tourny and in crews yesterday, approaching him with Meta Knight wasn't possible. I had to wait for blatant mistakes, which he didn't make. When BlackWaltz decided to camp Atomsk's Dedede MASSIVELY, Atomsk couldn't win.

marth<Mk in terms of speed and range.
If marth is capable of dealing with Olimar, there is absolutely no reason Mk cannot deal with him.
Especially since MK can do everything Marth can do but better.

Nope.

Marth's magical 1-frame move and 4-frame punisher that gets Olimar off the stage > MK's options.

Sonic users do it all the time.

I've yet to see Blue, our best Sonic, beat BlackWaltz. They are relatively the same in skill.

Really? if Olimar is sooo easy then people should be placing with him alot higher than they do now.
Which they don't. MK on the other hand, does

It's not my fault that people don't play him because he's extremely underrated. And those that do play him, obviously don't camp enough.

Not true. Wolfs blaster and GnWs dtilt beat it. He can't force them to approach

How do those moves do anything to Olimar's Pikmin if he's throwing them WHILE JUMPING, which is the best thing to do? They go right over and hit them.