The Official "Should/Will Metaknight be banned?" Thread (LISTEN TO THE SBR PODCAST!)

[salaboB]

I keep going back on the fence on an MK ban, I think he's a bit too safe for any logical reason to pick someone else, but he's not uber pwnage. 60:40 doesn't mean you will win every match or even most matches against an equally skilled player.

It means most matches -- over half is most.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Not just a safe pick -- he's *the* safe pick. Nobody else is a better choice when you don't know who your opponent will be playing as.

This can be applied to Melee where Fox was a pretty safe pick, heck most game have safe picks in the form of the best character if not one of the best.

If he's gone, there will be nobody who is entirely safe to choose, even Marth has a couple slightly disadvantaged matchups (And those can be made worse depending on the stage)

What are the other bad match-ups?

From what I've been reading and seeing he has one, Snake.

 

[salaboB]

This can be applied to Melee where Fox was a pretty safe pick, heck most game have safe picks in the form of the best character if not one of the best.

Fox had disadvantaged matchups and stages. MK does not, after months of playing against him the worst that's been found is neutral. This is a difference, "pretty safe" is not what MK is.

What are the other bad match-ups?

From what I've been reading and seeing he has one, Snake.

It's currently thought that Marth has 45:55 against Snake and Dedede. It's also known that he has stages that can push his matchups even more against him (Which matters if he loses the first round, say with a 45:55 or even a 50:50 matchup. Then if he wins the second on his stage he can be CP'ed to a stage he doesn't do well on. Against MK, even if he loses the first round he'll still have at worst a 50:50 matchup for your response CP for the third round to his second round CP against your character).

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

I remember EL said something about 60-40 not actually meaning you win 60% of the time in that match up but that the other character has to work 20% harder to bring it to a neutral or win.

It was something like that not to sure though.

 

[salaboB]

I just thought of explaining things this way. Someone tell me why this is acceptable:

Two players of equal skill face off against each other.

Round 1:
Player 1 uses MK.
Player 2 uses their best anti-MK character.
Matchup on any neutral stage: 50:50 (This is best case, nobody has demonstrated a disadvantaged matchup vs. MK yet.)

Flip a coin for who wins. Let's assume the anti-MK won the toss.

Round 2:
Player 1 picks a stage that Player 2's anti-MK character does not perform well on.
Player 2 is forced to choose to fight at a disadvantage, or switch to a character they are not as good at.
Matchup favors Player 1, because of the forced choice by disadvantaged stage pick or Player 2 having to use their second-best anti-MK.
Player 1 uses MK. If they're really good, because they're picking second, they just pick a character that dominates Player 2's character.
Matchup favors Player 1, likely heavily.

Player 1 wins, it's unlikely they won't when they've tipped it so far in their favor.

Round 3:
Player 2 picks a stage that favors their anti-MK character.
Player 1 picks MK.
Player 2 picks their anti-MK character.
Matchup on any stage is at worst 50:50, nobody has found one that tips it more against MK so this is the best Player 2 can do even with the stage select.

Flip a coin for who wins.

So, you have two coin flips and Player 1 only must win one of them. If they win both, they're done. If they lose both, they're also done (Though they get a shot at demoralizing their opponent in the middle.) But most likely is win one lose one, and with the advantage Player 1 can get from counterpicking that second round, Player 2 will most likely lose this matchup every single time.

Why, when picking MK three times in a row results in even-skill players having such a skewed outcome, is it unreasonable to ban MK?

Edit: It was pointed out to me you may have three reasons: 1) You suck with MK. 2) You believe you can counter MK with a character the opponent is unfamiliar with -- but that only works for an advantage if the other player sucks with MK. 3) You believe you know what your opponent will pick other than MK so you counterpick them ahead of time. 2) and 3) both rely on prior matchup knowledge, and that can be unreliable, so it ends up being if you don't start with MK you're a scrub because you're leaving yourself open to random counterpicks being a disadvantage for you and aren't making the best choice you have to win with.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Fox had disadvantaged matchups and stages. MK does not, after months of playing against him the worst that's been found is neutral. This is a difference, "pretty safe" is not what MK is.

MK doesn't have any bad match-ups, or ones anyone wants to persue other than Snake.

As for Stages, I still say Corneria, Green Greens, Yoshi's Island (melee), and Final Destination do well to tip it into your favor.

It's currently thought that Marth has 45:55 against Snake and Dedede. It's also known that he has stages that can push his matchups even more against him (Which matters if he loses the first round, say with a 45:55 or even a 50:50 matchup. Then if he wins the second on his stage he can be CP'ed to a stage he doesn't do well on. Against MK, even if he loses the first round he'll still have at worst a 50:50 matchup for your response CP for the third round to his second round CP against your character).

Snake I agree, Dedede I'll need to look into, I thought it was neutral.

Stages I agree, the thing is people can't come to a consensus on MK's bad stages.

 

[St. Viers]

heh, gone for two hours, and so much more:

re: wario-olimar--okay. This is what I get for not being up to date w/ wario. I still think that it's olimar's favor though... just, isn't olimar's upB the cover for the smash blindspot?

@salaboB--you mean MK? (you said marth)

 

[salaboB]

Snake I agree, Dedede I'll need to look into, I thought it was neutral.

That was from the stickied matchup thread on the Marth boards, I'm not an expert on Marth's matchups so I rely on their accuracy. They may be wrong, but you'll have to take it up there.

Stages I agree, the thing is people can't come to a consensus on MK's bad stages.

He's just got so many ways to kill people he can make use of pretty much any unusual aspect of a stage that would normally tip it to an advantage or disadvantage.

@salaboB--you mean MK? (you said marth)

Red Ryu was asking why Marth wouldn't be a problem if MK is gone, so I did mean Marth in that case. MK has no 45:55 disadvantaged matchups that anyone has been able to demonstrate in practice.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

That was from the stickied matchup thread on the Marth boards, I'm not an expert on Marth's matchups so I rely on their accuracy. They may be wrong, but you'll have to take it up there.

k.

He's just got so many ways to kill people he can make use of pretty much any unusual aspect of a stage that would normally tip it to an advantage or disadvantage.

The only stages I'd say he can't capitalize well are Corneria and Green Greens. Their just bad stages for light people and those who can't take explosions well.

Red Ryu was asking why Marth wouldn't be a problem if MK is gone, so I did mean Marth in that case. MK has no 45:55 disadvantaged matchups that anyone has been able to demonstrate in practice.

Sort of.

I was going off how the only character off the top of my head who would jump in the tiers would be Marth. He'd only have slight problems with Snake, or Dedede.

He's like MK only he has less 60-40's, more neutrals, and one/two slight disadvantages.

 

[brinboy789]

The only stages I'd say he can't capitalize well are Corneria and Green Greens. Their just bad stages for light people and those who can't take explosions well.

i said pirate ship because it has semilow cieilng and MK's gimping game is destroyed because of water and he actually has to rack up damage for the kill, but nobody was on my side at the time, and they were all like "just dair them until you die"

 

[Punishment Divine]

Alright, people really need to stop this whole Marth thing. Some people just don't lurk the Marth boards to understand this concept:

The Marth boards makes matchup ratios through theory and actual options characters have. In all technicality, if Marth PERFECTLY spaces the entire match, punishes every mistake, and Dolphin Slash OoS's everything that gets in his space, he is the best character in the game. However, due to human capabilities, Marth's AMAZING on paper options are extremely toned down. Along with that, if someone DOES get in his space his amazing options are reduced and he gets punished. Hard, in fact. Marth also takes extreme patience and getting past projectiles is the biggest ***** in the world.

This is NOT the case with MK. If MK ****s up, he doesn't get punished hard, if at all. MK has amazing room for error. He can also get past projectiles well. Along with that he has all the options Marth does, those amazing options. In reality, MK is what Marth is in theory.

Stop saying Marth is going to be broken or something just because "he has no disadvantaged matchups" or whatever.

 

[Ken Neth]

MK doesn't have any bad match-ups, or ones anyone wants to persue other than Snake.

MK has an advantage over snake.

As for Stages, I still say Corneria, Green Greens, Yoshi's Island (melee), and Final Destination do well to tip it into your favor.

Corneria is not as bad of a MK stage as everyone says it is. Below the fin (right side of the stage) is a great place for MK. He can up-b to instant ledge-grab. It forces his opponents to come to him, since it is pretty much impossible to projectile camp him when he is down there. The edges are really close, and while he dies a lot faster, this makes it much easier for him to gimp people.

My friend mains MK and he counterpicks corneria against a lot of characters.

Anyways, MK doesn't have any stages that make a match-up disadvantageous for him. He only has stages that make it less in his advantage. And any "bad" stages for MK all depend upon who he's fighting. For example, when fighting Olimar, Olimar's best neutral stage vs MK is Battlefield. But snake on the otherhand, gets ***** on BF, and his best neutral stage vs MK is FD. It's all relative to the character he's fighting.

 

[brinboy789]

stuff

can someone explain to me why pirate ship isnt a bad CP to MK?

 

[Ken Neth]

i said pirate ship because it has semilow cieilng and MK's gimping game is destroyed because of water and he actually has to rack up damage for the kill, but nobody was on my side at the time, and they were all like "just dair them until you die"

His gimping game is not destroyed in the least by the water. If anything, it helps him because characters cannot recover from below the stage. Once they are in the water they are dead no matter what if the MK knows what he's doing. He just uses dair (which forces them to stay in the water while moving them to a side) until they have either died from hitting the ship, or died from going off the sides of the stage.

I remember when you brought that up awhile ago in this thread, and I don't think you get the part where, if a character gets in the water (and you're playing a MK who know's what he's doing) that character is dead no matter what.

 

[salaboB]

can someone explain to me why pirate ship isnt a bad CP to MK?

It was done over, and over, and over. You've ignored every explanation, I'm not sure why someone taking the effort to do it again will make an impact on you.

Ken Neth did give it a try though, I suggest you read the post right above this one. If you can't address why he's wrong with facts for how people can get out, you should consider your question answered.

 

[brinboy789]

It was done over, and over, and over. You've ignored every explanation, I'm not sure why someone taking the effort to do it again will make an impact on you.

Ken Neth did give it a try though, I suggest you read the post right above this one. If you can't address why he's wrong with facts for how people can get out, you should consider your question answered.

all i get from you guys is "dair until hits ships hull or side blastzones"

let me tell you this, its pretty hard continually dairing until they die. and they have to be @ around a certain percentage, around 40 - 60. you cant just say its good for MK because he can dair oh noes when all of his other advantages are nullified

explain to me ONE more time why its bad, and if i cant say anything, then you win

 

[salaboB]

explain to me ONE more time why its bad, and if i cant say anything, then you win

Did you read my post? I specifically said, in the bit you quoted, that the post right above mine answered it.

Yes, it was a fast stealth edit because I saw what had been said right before I posted mine, but you quoted it so it was obviously up before you replied.

Go read Ken Neth's post right above the one of mine you just quoted.

 

[brinboy789]

Did you read my post? I specifically said, in the bit you quoted, that the post right above mine answered it.

Yes, it was a fast stealth edit because I saw what had been said right before I posted mine, but you quoted it so it was obviously up before you replied.

Go read Ken Neth's post right above the one of mine you just quoted.

i did. he said that you keep on dairing until they die. ive already said, IVE TRIED IT, its hard to do, and they have to be around a certain % or else they will go too far or too close to you and you will send them the wrong way

 

[Punishment Divine]

i did. he said that you keep on dairing until they die. ive already said, IVE TRIED IT, its hard to do, and they have to be around a certain % or else they will go too far or too close to you and you will send them the wrong way

Then you're just incompetent. That along with the fact that NOTHING ABOUT HIS GAME CHANGES means that the stage doesn't hurt him.

 

[streetracr77]

As SamuraiPanda said above about the hypothetical mario situation, I think that is what's happening. People begin to use mk so they stand a chance against other mk's. This happens over and over again and the chain keeps on going. So many people can do this because you can pick him up so fast and then you start getting better with him and you don't have a reason to play you're other characters.

I'm not going to say that I've ever played a top elite-level mk, because I haven't. I can't complain about how people destroy me with him and how he's so cheap because I'm not a top level player and I don't play other top level players. I just think one character shouldn't have so little flaws.

 

[salaboB]

i did. he said that you keep on dairing until they die. ive already said, IVE TRIED IT, its hard to do, and they have to be around a certain % or else they will go too far or too close to you and you will send them the wrong way

Your question was answered for why the stage is not a great CP against MK.

You made a statement based on theory. It was answered based on fact. You being good enough to perform that tactic or not does not prove other people can't do it reliably. If you were on M2K's level and said it couldn't be done, or even Azen or Dojo's level, then you would have a lot more credibility. But you're refusing to listen to people who know what they're talking about in how to do this simply because you're unable to duplicate it. Sure, if it were just one saying it that too might be different -- but it's multiple people, some of whom have demonstrated they are quite good with MK and know what they're talking about for his capabilities.

That is not a good way to debate things.

 

[BentoBox]

@brin: IC chaingrabs are hard to perform too and require you to be very knowledgeable about each char's weights. Your point?

 

[brinboy789]

Then you're just incompetent. That along with the fact that NOTHING ABOUT HIS GAME CHANGES means that the stage doesn't hurt him.

semilow ceiling = bad for him because he cant KO vertically while other chars can.
water = good for dair chains IF you can successfully do it and IF theyre at the right %, but otherwise it kills his entire gimp gme
faraway side blast zones = he actually has to rack up damage before he KO's

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Stop saying Marth is going to be broken or something just because "he has no disadvantaged matchups" or whatever.

I said he would get better, not that he would become MK 2.0.

MK has an advantage over snake.

Not everyone agree with that, me being apart of that group.

Corneria is not as bad of a MK stage as everyone says it is. Below the fin (right side of the stage) is a great place for MK. He can up-b to instant ledge-grab. It forces his opponents to come to him, since it is pretty much impossible to projectile camp him when he is down there. The edges are really close, and while he dies a lot faster, this makes it much easier for him to gimp people.

The dying much faster part is why it's good for people against him.

People also need to be careful not to get infinited on that wall, much like people need to do against him.

My friend mains MK and he counterpicks corneria against a lot of characters.

Your friends a weirdo. /jk

Anyways, MK doesn't have any stages that make a match-up disadvantageous for him. He only has stages that make it less in his advantage. And any "bad" stages for MK all depend upon who he's fighting. For example, when fighting Olimar, Olimar's best neutral stage vs MK is Battlefield. But snake on the otherhand, gets ***** on BF, and his best neutral stage vs MK is FD. It's all relative to the character he's fighting.

Corneria, Green Greens, Yoshi's Island (melee), and Final Destination can tip the fight into the other parties favor if not an advantage, but only for certain characters on certain stages, like you said.

 

[LuigiKing]

Alright, people really need to stop this whole Marth thing. Some people just don't lurk the Marth boards to understand this concept:

The Marth boards makes matchup ratios through theory and actual options characters have. In all technicality, if Marth PERFECTLY spaces the entire match, punishes every mistake, and Dolphin Slash OoS's everything that gets in his space, he is the best character in the game. However, due to human capabilities, Marth's AMAZING on paper options are extremely toned down. Along with that, if someone DOES get in his space his amazing options are reduced and he gets punished. Hard, in fact. Marth also takes extreme patience and getting past projectiles is the biggest ***** in the world.

This is NOT the case with MK. If MK ****s up, he doesn't get punished hard, if at all. MK has amazing room for error. He can also get past projectiles well. Along with that he has all the options Marth does, those amazing options. In reality, MK is what Marth is in theory.

Stop saying Marth is going to be broken or something just because "he has no disadvantaged matchups" or whatever.

QFT. So much win.

 

[salaboB]

Corneria, Green Greens, Yoshi's Island (melee), and Final Destination can tip the fight into the other parties favor if not an advantage, but only for certain characters on certain stages, like you said.

Who goes favorable against MK on any stage?

...please don't say Bowser on FD.

(Ideally, is there anyone who has *two* stages they go favorable against MK? Since many tournies allow you to ban one counterpick stage you need two if you want to make use of that advantage)

 

[brinboy789]

@brin: IC chaingrabs are hard to perform too and require you to be very knowledgeable about each char's weights. Your point?

IC chaingrab is a solid part of thier metagame, and any IC's who are at least half decent should know how to perform them easily. dairing on water isnt for MK. besides, IC CG works in ANY %, while the dair thingy only works in certain %'s

 

[salaboB]

while the dair thingy only works in certain %'s

This is according to only you, nobody else has said it.

 

[Ken Neth]

i did. he said that you keep on dairing until they die. ive already said, IVE TRIED IT, its hard to do, and they have to be around a certain % or else they will go too far or too close to you and you will send them the wrong way

It really isn't that hard to do. And I'm almost positive they don't have to be at a certain percent. I haven't done extensive research on this, but I can almost guarantee it's accurate enough to prove my point.

The d-air hits them down and to the side. The more percentage they have the further to the side they will go. This does not make it so they can get out. While it will hit them further to the side every time and the MK will have to go further in-between d-airs, it is also hitting them further and further into the water which increases the time before they can get out.

So while the MK has to go further inbetween d-airs he has more time to get there. Therefore this should average out to be around the same difficulty to pull off, regardless of the percentage they are at.

Again, I haven't done extensive research on this so i could possibly be wrong, but I doubt I am. If you can find solid proof that it has to be at a certain % then I will freely admit that I am wrong.

*Also, saying "it's hard to do, and/or I've only been able to do it at certain %" is not solid proof, not even close. I want real, factual proof.

 

[Inui]

wow...
Inui is a bad player AND a portable john factory.
i had heard rumors, but now i see for myself lol
for the record, everyone is going to screw up everyonce in a while, so if you have to play perfect just to make him worthwhile in tourneys, than you are explaining why he is a bad character to begin with

btw, i think inui should know all about sonic, from what i heard sonic was the last character to beat him in tourney before he switched to MK

Okay? I don't care if you think I'm bad when tournament results and facts prove you completely wrong. It's okay to think that water is dry and the sky is full of cows, I guess. Moron.

The blade of Wolfs gun throws the pikmin away before they deal any dmg
GnWs dtilt hitbox = huge gl try to throw a pikmin on that...

That forces Olimar to approach...how? The blaster doesn't go as far as the Pikmin and Game and Watch is just standing there d-tilting doing nothing.

You know what I do against Olimar?

Well, I used to just pick ROB and that ended the problem quickly.

Now with MK, you know what I do?

I just walk in and knock him off the stage. It isn't difficult. Olimar uses over-b. Oh no. A no-hitstun move that deals damage. How will I ever find a way through this barrage.

Your opponent bruises you, you break his bones. Walk through whatever Olimar is doing, then knock him off the stage. If he is the shielding type rather than the jump+fair type, just do a dash grab and kill him from there.

You have clearly never played a top Olimar.

Lol yeah I don't understand where people are coming out with Oli but meh.

I've never played an over the top great Oli so there's not much I can say about it. The one's I have played I ***** so it's whatever...

EXACTLY.

You guys haven't played the top ones, and they all play extremely gay.

Marth doesn't have a one frame move, and DB is not getting Olimar off stage with any DI at all.

U-b makes him invincible on frame 1 and hits on frame 5, and no move in the entire game has less than 5 total frames of start-up, active time, and recovery time, so it WILL punish an attempted...anything, and Olimar's love shield grabbing. F-b will get Olimar off the stage/in the air, which is how you beat him. It will hit him off if you're near the edge.

You're automatically assuming if Olimar makes no mistakes no one can approach which we know for a fact to be untrue.

I haven't seen this proven wrong yet. If Olimar gets hit, I'm convinced it's because he didn't camp properly or made a mistake.

Are you hitting with the bottom of the tornado?
When are you hitting him? How is his rather laggy Dair capable of still hitting you when you should not be in a position for him to Dair you if he escapes?

I don't think I ever got d-aired out of it, but I've been hit after using the tornado. It didn't matter what part I connected. NinjaLink instantly escaped.

We already know that Oerswarm is a skilled ROB user.
Insulting him and saying otherwise does not help your argument. hat goes for Overswarm as well.

It's hard to take him seriously as a skilled player when he has done nothing major in terms of tournament accomplishments and apparently thinks MK can't be beaten. *shrug*

nationally all the data says otherwise.
We also know for a fact that MK>Kirby in speed, range, priority and reliability of kill moves. We also know that Mk has better responses to bad situatins and can get away from those situations while Kirby has a bigger issue.
Either the skill of Chudat and Forte are greater than those other MK's (which is a very real possibility) or some other issue is taking place.

Newsflash: Atlantic North is where the highest level of play exists. If Kirbys can't win besides ChuDat, then ChuDat is obviously way better than him and on an entirely different level. He beat Forte, who M2K considers the #2 MK in the nation, multiple times. They are both clearly very high level players. Yet...Kirby wins half the time.

DD vs. Olimar=bad.
Sticking a character who can camp mid range against a character who camps from long range in order to force close range combat is not good. Olimar has a better ability at maintaining the spacing of a fight so its no surprise that he lost.

how close was the fight btw?

BlackWaltz was in control the entire time.

Atomsk's Olimar twostocked me in one game where he NEVER approached and just camped forever, but I twostocked him when he decided to approach and fight. I won the first set 3-2 but then he won 3-0 because he camped massively. I couldn't find any way to approach safely despite being a top player.

Let's totally forget Marth's range, speed, aerial mobility.
Which MK completely outclasses him in (range=safe move which is what marth relies heavily upon in the matchup, mobility Marth is greater).
His ability to setup (which M also beats him out in).

You should know this.

Marth actually has faster punishers and better options against the godly grab. That's what makes Marth better at the match, imo. He also lives longer due to weight and is harder to combo. Olimar has a 20-30% combo, depending on Pikmin, that works on MK but not Marth due to the u-b and Marth being floatier.

underrated? No one doubts Olimar's camping capabilities and power and range.
his recovery yes but nothing else.

Again what strategy did you use agaisnt Olimar? Did you rush?

The tier list has Olimar extremely low. I'd put him in top tier.

I rush in when I think it's safe, which I now believe to be nearly never after playing a SUPER campy Olimar in tourny. I camp d-airs a lot. I get Olimar in the air and play a guessing game. This has worked against BlackWaltz because he less patient than Atomsk.

I'm sorry Inui, but because a character isn't high tier doesn't make him ****ty. Both the Oli and Peach boards agree that Peach has the advantage. Who made you the olimar specialist anyways?

I try to only listen to BlackWaltz and Atomsk about Olimar's match-ups because I see them very often and they are both extremely good with Olimar. What character boards say...doesn't mean a whole lot to me. They could very easily be wrong.

At one point, the Marth and MK boards thought Marth vs MK was even. Now it's considered Marth's worst match. Big change, eh? That's going to happen with Olimar soon. He'll be at an advantage in everything. Watch and see.

B/Cs the MKs (well, Inui) claim that Olimar will be unbeatable with MK gone.

No.

I'm just claiming that Olimar is possibly better and if more people used him you'd all be crying to ban Olimar instead.

This is NOT the case with MK. If MK ****s up, he doesn't get punished hard, if at all. MK has amazing room for error. He can also get past projectiles well. Along with that he has all the options Marth does, those amazing options. In reality, MK is what Marth is in theory.

MK dies at extremely low damage compared to most characters. I died, with good DI, to Bowser's b-air at 60% on the side of FD. That's stupid. MK is clearly not allowed to randomly do stuff and take hits.

MK has an advantage over snake.

Complete false. Atlantic North's top MKs consistently lose to the top Snakes.

can someone explain to me why pirate ship isnt a bad CP to MK?

It's a stage that needs to be banned because it has no place in competitive play. That's why.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Who goes favorable against MK on any stage?

...please don't say Bowser on FD.

(Ideally, is there anyone who has *two* stages they go favorable against MK? Since many tournies allow you to ban one counterpick stage you need two if you want to make use of that advantage)

Yoshi can do well on any flat stage with one platform that MK doesn't jump to and Yoshi's Island, the main places he can capitalize on the pivot grabs well.

Snake like Corneria and Green Greens, if not Brinstar and flat areas can work well. If MK takes him to rainbow cruise, he's screwed.

The first two for Snake and for Yoshi it's Final Destination, and both Yoshi's Islands. It's a small advantage, 55/45, but only on those stages.

 

[brinboy789]

*insert huge multiquote wall*

It's a stage that needs to be banned because it has no place in competitive play. That's why.

its a CP. i checked before posting the idea

 

[St. Viers]

brinboy: low ceilings means that MK can actually kill with his upB, or even nado against unsuspecting PPL. On higher stages, you can just DI it. Also, far killzones means that it's harder to KO MK off the side, which is the idea behind other MK CP stages, like Corneria and Greens. The water only helps metaknight, because they have to jump out, and are vunerable, while he can keep jumping and footstool/d-airing them farther away.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

its a CP. i checked before posting the idea

Inui thinks it should be banned, he's not going with what the legality list of stages says.

 

[Punishment Divine]

MK dies at extremely low damage compared to most characters. I died, with good DI, to Bowser's b-air at 60% on the side of FD. That's stupid. MK is clearly not allowed to randomly do stuff and take hits.

I'm not saying you can just mindlessly run at your opponent and go "DURR I R ATTACK" though.

MK can mess up his spacing and not get punished, though, due to his low lag attacks and his sheer speed and moves like Shuttle Loop and dsmash which are ridiculous "gtfo" type moves.

Marth doesnt have those options always, except up b which if you miss, you're ****ed

 

[salaboB]

Yoshi can do well on any flat stage with one platform that MK doesn't jump to and Yoshi's Island, the main places he can capitalize on the pivot grabs well.

Snake like Corneria and Green Greens, if not Brinstar and flat areas can work well. If MK takes him to rainbow cruise, he's screwed.

The first two for Snake and for Yoshi it's Final Destination, and both Yoshi's Islands. It's a small advantage, 55/45, but only on those stages.

Yoshi mainers disagree about it being 55/45 for Yoshi. Snake is strongly debated, so while it may in fact be the case that's going to be a while before it can be determined, and since it's such a slim advantage if it does exist is hard to change how it works.

Basically, here's the problem with the advantage being so minor (And you did answer my question, I'm just explaining why it's not enough to make MK okay):

Round 1, Snake vs. MK. Neutral stage, 50:50.

Round 2, MK lost round 1 (Flipped a coin and he lost), counterpicks a bad stage for Snake: Better than 55:45.

Round 3, Snake picks his best anti-MK level: 55:45 Snake.

So just by playing MK, his absolute worst matchup at even skill levels gives the MK player better odds of winning. That's the best character that can oppose MK. Everyone else, just by playing MK, the MK player has shifted the odds of winning even though they are equally skilled even further towards his side because he can't be CP'ed to even 55:45 against him.

MK is a problem because at even skill levels, no matter what the opponent does, the MK player has an advantage that can't be overcome. Just by playing MK, he is statistically favored to win no matter what the response is, you can see it coming and you can't do a thing about it. No other character in the game can do this.

 

[brinboy789]

brinboy: low ceilings means that MK can actually kill with his upB, or even nado against unsuspecting PPL. On higher stages, you can just DI it. Also, far killzones means that it's harder to KO MK off the side, which is the idea behind other MK CP stages, like Corneria and Greens. The water only helps metaknight, because they have to jump out, and are vunerable, while he can keep jumping and footstool/d-airing them farther away.

yea he can kill with it but he GETS killed much earlier then FD or other stages. youre only seeing one side of the arguement, if its harder to KO MK off the edge but MK has trouble KOing you. and he has:
dsmash: good, but needs more damage then FD, which is like around 120
fsmash: kind of hard to land...
shuttle loop: needs setting up, fthrow/dthrow to it. prolly best option.
MK is MUCH easier KOed in this stage because low cieling + faraway side blast zones.
water only helps him? he can dair, oh yea. you forgot the fact that it KILLS his gimping game, aside from the dair tactic which all of you are saying that just that makes it a promk stage.
and can you footstool on water? i dont think so...not sure though

 

[Overswarm]

It's hard to take him seriously as a skilled player when he has done nothing major in terms of tournament accomplishments and apparently thinks MK can't be beaten. *shrug*

*rolls eyes*

 

[Inui]

its a CP. i checked before posting the idea

It's a terrible stage. Don't listen to the SBR's stages. They have CLEARLY unviable stages on their list that every Atlantic North TO has banned and they released an extremely inaccurate tier list. God bless their souls for trying to be helpful, but they were wrong. I'm not saying they're idiots, but they're clearly not infallable.

I'm not saying you can just mindlessly run at your opponent and go "DURR I R ATTACK" though.

MK can mess up his spacing and not get punished, though, due to his low lag attacks and his sheer speed and moves like Shuttle Loop and dsmash which are ridiculous "gtfo" type moves.

Marth doesnt have those options always, except up b which if you miss, you're ****ed

Wow @ saying MK isn't punished for spacing poorly. Who the hell are you playing? If MK doesn't space properly, he's getting punished.

MK > Marth, so okay???

 

[Overswarm]

It's a terrible stage. Don't listen to the SBR's stages. They have CLEARLY unviable stages on their list that every Atlantic North TO has banned and they released an extremely inaccurate tier list. God bless their souls for trying to be helpful, but they were wrong. I'm not saying they're idiots, but they're clearly not infallable.

You play in a region that bans stages and infinites because "they're gay".

We ban stages because they're not suitable for competitive play.

We require 2/3rds majority for a stage to be outright banned; if something doesn't get that 2/3rd, the TO can put it in the banned list and still be okay by the SBR rule standards.