Turbo Ether
Smash Master
- Joined
- Apr 12, 2006
- Messages
- 3,601
What about DK?
-
Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!
You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!
The Official "Should/Will Metaknight be banned?" Thread (LISTEN TO THE SBR PODCAST!)
- Thread starter SamuraiPanda
- Start date
- Status
Inui
Banned via Warnings
If TOs have stages like Norfair, Luigi's Mansion, and Hanenbow on, they are asking MKs to time out every counterpick match. Just throwing that out there.
Mew2King
King of the Mews
DK Can prolly do good vs MK if they play the match right. However, many people now think MK beats DK only cuz bum sucks vs tornado. If he wasn't so bad vs tornado, which is due to lack of experience fighting it (all of us sucked vs tornado at one point) he would do fine vs mk. Wario also does really well vs MK.
Saying "Fox is the same as MK in terms of matchups and gay stages counterpicks" isn't quite the same, because he was saying Fox was good at the "gay" counterpicks. That doesn't address the ones he considered fair that were unfavorable to Fox (MK is lacking in those)
Mew2King
King of the Mews
marth had matchups that were bad (bad means 60/40 or worse I guess), like sheik, and falcon was arguable, but falcon has the advantage vs marth if played right, me neo and ken cort prolly azen too will tell you that. Fox vs Marth was even IMO, but if played right, on most stages fox has a small advantage because of lasers. I'm considering going back to maining fox (even though I use all 3 characters almost equally at this point) once I get my tech skill good again, I guess I'll see.
the argument was no bad matchups, and fox and sheik didn't have bad matchups in melee, and fox was really good on basically every gay stage, including having a projectile so he doesn't really even need to fight you except for kill moves. Don't say ICs beat Sheik, cuz that's a lie, Sheik beats ICs. Sheik vs spacies is 55/45 at WORST, and that is not bad at ALL.
snake ***** MK on corneria FWI, MK vs Fox comparison is exactly the same for gay stages, as well as not having bad matchups.
the argument was no bad matchups, and fox and sheik didn't have bad matchups in melee, and fox was really good on basically every gay stage, including having a projectile so he doesn't really even need to fight you except for kill moves. Don't say ICs beat Sheik, cuz that's a lie, Sheik beats ICs. Sheik vs spacies is 55/45 at WORST, and that is not bad at ALL.
snake ***** MK on corneria FWI, MK vs Fox comparison is exactly the same for gay stages, as well as not having bad matchups.
Joxer
Smash Apprentice
See M2K argument above
Yeah, WA's had Hanenbow legal for a while, but now Bladewise is deliberately trying to get it banned and prove a point by winning every match there by running out the timer.
Definitely should be banned. Norfair I've never actually seen the timer run out even when the player camped, but it was a Link.
Mansion is just stupid. I don't understand how anyone didn't ban that in Brawl's first month. WA did.
He's still talking "gay" stages. Those *still* don't address how Fox does on others.
Is there only one Melee stage that gives one character an advantaged matchup vs. Fox?
Inui
Banned via Warnings
I'm assuming you meant Marth vs Fox LOL.
Mew2King
King of the Mews
honestly, i don't think fox has any bad stages that you can pick against him. The worst ones I can think of are Brinstar, Mute City, or Jungle Japes, but Fox does fine on all 3. I like Fox on all of them, I go Fox/Sheik on brinstar/JJ and Fox/Marth on mute city. Jiggs vs Fox on those stages I don't even think is as bad as Snake vs MK on Corneria in brawl.
****, I really need to do my college work, but smashboards is so distracting. I think I'm going to probably call it a night for now since I need to catch up on stuff. So ask me stuff some later time.
****, I really need to do my college work, but smashboards is so distracting. I think I'm going to probably call it a night for now since I need to catch up on stuff. So ask me stuff some later time.
I guess the question then is why wasn't Fox dominating tournies if he was so unstoppable.
If it requires too much skill to get a matchup advantaged (Like, only 2-3 people in the nation are that good), then that matchup as it impacts the competitive scene is a disadvantage.
Joxer
Smash Apprentice
According to the argument guide thread, the main argument for MK getting banned at the moment is the following:
According to several sources (see below), including M2K, MK has characters that counter him and disadvantageous stage picks.
Thoughts? Do the above arguments nullify the argument to ban MK? And back to my original point: Is it possible that that people are spending too much time complaining about MK and not enough time simply learning his tactics and how to counter them in a match?
Fletch
Smash Master
I don't see why you didn't use this more in Melee when you played Fox. It would practically be a guaranteed win if you CPed there. Who cares if it's "gay", you're supposed to use everything to your advantage that's allowed, and maybe if it got "gay" enough, it would have been banned.
Mew2King
King of the Mews
tech skill, many ppl didn't have it. Brawl's learning curve is easier, as is being consistent with it. Ken and Azen have resorted to Fox a lot, often on gay stages. I forgot about Onett too. Fox is super broken there, and Ken counterpicked it before to win.
edit - **** smashboards it's so distracting. Stop responding until tomorrow or the next day!!!
MenoUnderwater is not M2K, those stages have been argued to be fine for MK. M2K has argued that MK has no really terrible stages.
Also, MK still does break the counterpick system if he has only neutrals. M2K says 55:45 Snake's favor as the only disadvantaged, but that one is still within the range many consider neutral, and even if not isn't enough by itself to un-break MK.
The reason it's not enough enough is because it's not a strong enough disadvantage to overcome the way MK can stage counterpick Snake. I don't believe there's any stage where Snake gets a free win vs. MK, but there are a couple stages where MK can ruin Snake. Since he can do that, he still will gain an automatic edge just by being MK via stage counterpicking, and is still breaking the system even against his hardest matchup.
Let me, again and briefly, break down how MK vs. Snake goes:
First round: 55:45 Snake's favor.
If the MK loses (Best possibility for Snake), he'll CP to ruin Snake. Let's call it 70:30 (Pick a legal stage that Snake does horribly on, they've been talked of before).
Final round, Snake picks the worst stage for MK. Call it 60:40 in Snake's favor.
So to win, MK gets an almost-even 55:45 start round, if he wins that and then loses a 60:40 he'll still get an even bigger advantage 70:30 vs. Snake (Basically, a free win), if he loses the first he'll get the second and then just have to win a 60:40.
tl;dr: MK gets an almost ensured win due to stage CP'ing and then must win one of two slightly disadvantaged matchups, while Snake must win two slightly advantaged matchups to get the victory. Even if MK is at that base disadvantage to Snake, he is statistically advantaged to win between two equally skilled players just by being MK. And Snake is MK's worst matchup.
If it required such levels of skill with Fox that only 2-3 people in the nation had it, then you may as well say Wolf is unbeatable because he can shine everything so MK isn't the most broken character in Brawl -- it's so far out there in skill requirements that the Fox -> MK example falls apart.
DanteFox
Smash Champion
This post is probably the most intelligent post so far. The real competitive aspect of a game is not in banning good character's, it is in learning to deal with them and make other's good in the process. Plus, brawl isn't even a year old yet, imagine how we'd have altered the melee timeline if shiek had been banned way back when she was considered cheap.
I could only imagine what would happen if Akuma was never banned in the SF community.
Brawl is maturing at an alarming rate when compared to Melee. Not to say that it's mature or anything of that sort, but the fact that many qualities of characters and levels have already for the most part, been analyzed, only makes the MK topic more complicated.
memphischains
Smash hhkj'
aw puff.
the akuma ref? really?
you know this is completely different
the akuma ref? really?
you know this is completely different
Shut it. I'm not comparing MK to Akuma. I'm just using it as a hypothetical situation.
Although I do admit it was a tad extreme.
It's hard for an example to be too extreme, from what I've seen.
Temp banning MK is apparently like throwing someone in jail for 6 months when they didn't commit the crime. If it's not as extreme as that, it's not too extreme.
da K.I.D.
Smash Hero
i think all references to melee should be suspended until you losers can figure out who the best character in that game is....
its been 8 years and you guys still cant determine who is better out of marth and fox.
it took us 4 months to determine that MK was by a good margin the best character in the game.
this is also a good reason why you shouldnt use the "its too new" arguement against the ban as well. because as far as this one aspect goes, we know more about brawl after having it for 8 months than we do about melee, which weve had for 8 years.
stop talking about melee until you can collectively get your stories together
@MC i would say something really stupid to you in a seperate post, but im trying to keep my part in this discussion as serious as possible.
its been 8 years and you guys still cant determine who is better out of marth and fox.
it took us 4 months to determine that MK was by a good margin the best character in the game.
this is also a good reason why you shouldnt use the "its too new" arguement against the ban as well. because as far as this one aspect goes, we know more about brawl after having it for 8 months than we do about melee, which weve had for 8 years.
stop talking about melee until you can collectively get your stories together
@MC i would say something really stupid to you in a seperate post, but im trying to keep my part in this discussion as serious as possible.
This is awesome.
The bolded part is supported when you also put into consideration the "lack of depth" Brawl apparently has to several people.
memphischains
Smash hhkj'
i half didn't expect this from kid
the other half was steak
the other half was steak
LeeHarris
Smash Lord
Actually, M2K has been arguing for the longest time in the SBR that Sheik is the best. So that means we're debating 3 characters for being the best in the game. But everyone admits that MK is clearly the best and only a tiny handful say he has any bad matchups (I don't even think he has even matchups).
memphischains
Smash hhkj'
and.......... what?
and steak. Big and juicy.
---
Oh, and MK doesn't have even matches outside of dittos...
Infact, he doesn't even have matchups.
He ***** everyone except himself.
memphischains
Smash hhkj'
omfg steak. hot and heavy.
lol and lee your sig is A M A Z I N G
wheres inui to rebuttle snake also
lol and lee your sig is A M A Z I N G
wheres inui to rebuttle snake also
M2K recently has been comparing MK's dominance to Fox and (I believe) saying because Fox wasn't banned it's ridiculous to ban MK. But if Fox isn't even acknowledged as the best when compared against Marth, and M2K actually believes Sheik is, it kinda riddles that argument with holes.
It means that MK has the lack of counterpick vulnerabilities like Fox, combined with the overall best character of Sheik. You can't continue any comparison to Melee for ban or no ban after that is realized.
memphischains
Smash hhkj'
yeah i get that.
i thought there was more too what he was saying than that, so i wanted him to elaborate.
i thought there was more too what he was saying than that, so i wanted him to elaborate.
Mmac
Smash Lord
Yet it didn't do **** all to convince people that he's dead neutral against him, let alone advantage.
The best MK can pick is a 60:40 vs. Yoshi? It seems a bit unlikely...You know, it's the exact same thing with Yoshi, but in reverse. Initial Round is About Neutral. If Yoshi loses, he can Hard Counterpick MetaKnight for an actual easy win (Yes, Yoshi DOES Indeed have Hard Counterpick Stages against him), Then it's a 60:40 Stage Soft Counter against Yoshi.
Yet it didn't do **** all to convince people that he's dead neutral against him, let alone advantage.
What stage is a hard counterpick vs. MK, and why hasn't a Yoshi thwomped a high level MK on it (Repeatedly) if it's such an advantage?
(Part of the trouble is that step 2: MK's win can be replaced with a character counterpick, so if MK beats Yoshi in that 50:50 he can then switch to someone who destroys Yoshi and have an ensured win if you don't also switch (And certainly not the hard counter) and then just switch back to MK for his counterpick and win. That leaves him at a 50:50, throwaway match that he might win if you don't switch, and 60:40 his advantage. This is because Yoshi is possible to character counterpick, and the reason it doesn't work vice verse is because MK isn't really. If it comes down to that last matchup with the Yoshi getting a hard counter against MK, the MK would be dumb to not try a switch and force you to do the same. MK is still the best character to begin the round with though, unless you're initially certain who your opponent will use and can counterpick them ahead of time.)
Edit: Basically, the issue is that Yoshi has vulnerabilities that someone maining MK can handle via a secondary -- he just has to avoid (Could do it by banning that CP if that's allowed at the tourney, and then Yoshi's in real trouble if he only has one stage he gains that advantage on) fighting Yoshi on the hard counter stage and he's set with at least the overall advantage still. Plus because Yoshi has a hard time with a number of others, and is just a very hard character to master, there probably won't be enough Yoshi's to severely dent the MK population even if everything works out to Yoshi's favor. And I've heard way too many claims of characters beating MK that just aren't showing up in tournament results or specific, non-sandbagged matchups to just jump on another disadvantaged matchup without it being shown in practice.
memphischains
Smash hhkj'
yoshi can hhkj' though
Mmac
Smash Lord
But it is.... well except Rainbow Cruise, but I can just strike it out at the start.
These are his hard counterpicks he has:
Yoshi's Island Melee: Can Chaingrab up the hill for very easy KO's. Is also very small and the Slants work to Yoshi's Favour
Castle Siege: Part 2 is self explanatory and 3 is Final Destinationish. Also at low Percents, he can Chaingrab so fast that he could actually KO him on the Stage Transition.
Corneria: Mostly Flat, Has small Blast Zones that can be killed with regular Fthrows, and he can Wall Infinite him on the Fin.
Green Hill Zone: Pretty Obvious.... That is... if it isn't banned
Distant Planet: Ditto, but not as good
Why you haven't heard of it?........ I don't know
True, but Character Counterpicking has no relevance to the overall Matchup between Yoshi and MetaKnight. If anything, that is admitting that weakness Yoshi has over him. Trying to push that to claim that Yoshi is disadvantage of them matchup because he can switch mains is just plain idiotic. MetaKnight doesn't have the advantage, it's "Insert Yoshi Counterpick" that has the advantage!
Thats like saying Ganondorf has the advantage over Fox because he counterpicked with Pikachu!
You can't do this when looking at matchups. You got to look at it like the User is a Pure. You have to look at it as what if he doesn't swap, and plays all the way through.
Plus isn't it the fact that I'm scaring him in the first place to actually change mains, enough to warrant a counter?
The problem is twofold.
First, it's not been proven that the matchups actually play out that way -- that Yoshi can successfully get those walkoff cg's without getting pushed off the edge himself, enough to make those stages into hard counters.
Second, even having one counter doesn't really stop MK from being such an excellent CP choice, it just means he goes from completely breaking the CP system to breaking it badly. This would be more damaging to him if it were a higher tier character that wouldn't face so many problems from other characters, but Yoshi has troubles with other high tiers and that makes his usefulness for breaking MK's chokehold slimmer -- an MK main is unlikely to decide they need to switch their mains because of Yoshi going neutral with them.
And it really is mostly a neutral when everything is worked out, if a tiny bit in Yoshi's favor due to having better than 60:40 on the walkoff stages (Again, unproven that it's better than that) so choosing MK is still not a *bad* idea. Demonstrate Yoshi goes 70:30 on the CPs and really manages 50:50 on the neutrals (Or find someone who is able to) and Yoshi can move into a soft counter for MK and might get some attention that will break his dominance. Until someone can actually pull it off in practice though, the thought of having a neutral from extremely skilled Yoshi's (Which for the majority of MKs means better than them and could win with many other characters anyway) is unlikely to do much to those who play MK and ignore the counterpicking system that everyone else must deal with.
I had an statement nearly similar to that one from a SBR member. "This character being hard countered by this character doesn't effect their tier placement because you can just use a different character for that match-up!" Yep, perfect sense. Why should someone be lower on the tier list from having bad match-ups? Just use like MK for your disadvantaged match-ups! Hooray, every is top tier because you can just counterpick MK against their bad match-ups!
Point: I've come to expect any and every argument to be used.
It was more demonstrating that if Yoshi is accurately a hard counter on walkoff stages against MK, all an MK main is required is to have a second that can handle Yoshi to tip it back to a slight MK advantage, and Yoshi is the absolute worst matchup MK has currently known if it's true. -- the rest of the time they can play MK, because they'll be advantaged in the end from doing so. The reason Yoshi's tier placement matters is it indicates there are other high tier characters that can steamroll Yoshi, so it doesn't require that much practice with said second to be able to handle this.
If MK had a second character that could pull an advantage against him and force him to use a third character, then having one would have more impact because it would start to force MK players to be ready to switch more frequently. A relatively difficult to master, unpopular, mid-tier (Is that where he landed? Yoshi should be somewhere decent...) character is not going to create that much worry among those playing MK. Odds are they'll just never face one good enough to get that 50:50 matchup against him, given how technical Yoshi has to play compared to most anyone else in Brawl.
tl;dr: Moving MK from ignoring the CP system to badly breaking it still leaves him badly breaking it.
The Real Inferno
Smash Hero
Having one character as the only counter to a character rarely works out. Especially if that one character is a low tier. All a meta main has to do is learn one of that low tier's terrible matchups and pick it up as a secondary. It does little to alleviate the overall dominance of the main problem character in the long run. You generally need a counter that has very few bad matchups as well if you expect people to actually pick up the play of that counter. (For example what would be the point of learning Yoshi, a terribly hard character to master, when I can simply master Metaknight in a comparitively short period of time? I can take into account most tourney goers will take my same attitude and my percentage chance of even running into my one bad matchup is slim. However if my one bad matchup was someone like, Marth, it would be way better for the metagame as Marth's lack of very bad matchups and tier placement, ensuring he will have plenty of representation, thus keeping any one character from being too dominant.)
I wasn't talking about anything at all in regards to this topic other than my point to expect any argument to be randomly thrown out. So arguing against anything I said was silly, since I wasn't really trying to make an argument for or against banning MK. The whole context of my example was someone saying Fox's match-ups against Pikachu, ZSS, Sheik, and the slew of other characters who hard counter him shouldn't affect his tier position because you could use another character for them. Which is silly.
So anyway, I just said expect silly arguments to appear. Don't try to take what I say and think it's me saying something about the whole MK situation.
So anyway, I just said expect silly arguments to appear. Don't try to take what I say and think it's me saying something about the whole MK situation.
I was just responding to the end of the quote chain that had begun with one of my posts >.> It wasn't necessarily directed at you except that you seemed to be responding to his analogy and I was explaining why I had said something based on tier list position and counterpicking balancing the matchup.I wasn't talking about anything at all in regards to this topic other than my point to expect any argument to be randomly thrown out. So arguing against anything I said was silly, since I wasn't really trying to make an argument for or against banning MK. The whole context of my example was someone saying Fox's match-ups against Pikachu, ZSS, Sheik, and the slew of other characters who hard counter him shouldn't affect his tier position because you could use another character for them. Which is silly.
So anyway, I just said expect silly arguments to appear. Don't try to take what I say and think it's me saying something about the whole MK situation.
Sharky
Smash Master
wait...what? This makes no sense whatsoever. It's one of two scenarios:
1. MK is released off stage. MK dies, Yoshi lives.
2. MK is just out of release kill range. Yoshi f-throws. MK dies, Yoshi lives.
3. There is no 3. MK dies, Yoshi lives.
- Status