The Official "Should/Will Metaknight be banned?" Thread (LISTEN TO THE SBR PODCAST!)

[_Phloat_]

You keep saying it kills his gimping game, but it seems easier to push the opponents into the wall when you don't have to worry about jumping back. That means you can SL inches from the blastzone, the wrong way, and still live. You can simply dair them to oblivion and then land in the water and live.

It doesn't kill his gimping game, it makes it different which you don't seem to understand.

 

[Ken Neth]

brinboy: you have no idea what you are talking about. You completely ignored my last post that explained why pirate ship's water is good for MK. Until you can give me solid proof that it isn't, please drop it.

Also, have you noticed that not a single person has agreed with you on this? And everyone else either tells you that you are wrong and gives you proof, or ignores your comments? There is a reason for this. You are wrong. Drop it.

 

[Inui]

You play in a region that bans stages and infinites because "they're gay".

We ban stages because they're not suitable for competitive play.

We require 2/3rds majority for a stage to be outright banned; if something doesn't get that 2/3rd, the TO can put it in the banned list and still be okay by the SBR rule standards.

We banned them FOR EXACTLY THE SAME REASON. Well, minus PS2. I will admit that PS2 is banned mostly because it's despised and unpopular. Everything else, though, was because we deemed them unfit for competitive play.

Most infinites break the game. Negating DK, Bowser, and Ness to 100% irrelevant and worthless characters is stupid. Now THAT is terrible for the game, not MK existing.

 

[brinboy789]

brinboy: you have no idea what you are talking about. You completely ignored my last post that explained why pirate ship's water is good for MK. Until you can give me solid proof that it isn't, please drop it.

Also, have you noticed that not a single person has agreed with you on this? And everyone else either tells you that you are wrong and gives you proof, or ignores your comments? There is a reason for this. You are wrong. Drop it.

-sigh- alright fine, w/e.

 

[memphischains]

PS2 is a dope level. wtf are you talking about inui

 

[BentoBox]

I try to only listen to BlackWaltz and Atomsk about Olimar's match-ups because I see them very often and they are both extremely good with Olimar. What character boards say...doesn't mean a whole lot to me. They could very easily be wrong.

At one point, the Marth and MK boards thought Marth vs MK was even. Now it's considered Marth's worst match. Big change, eh? That's going to happen with Olimar soon. He'll be at an advantage in everything. Watch and see.

I layed out the facts and you have nothing better to tell me other than that you're acting like a tool. I doubt you've ever even discussed the match-up with either of them and simply chose to brush it off because... surely being around Atomsk makes you inevitably right even when you have no first hand experience. Surely.

There's a difference between an even matchup going into someone's favor and an unbalanced matchup tilting from one side to the other, something that has yet to happen. To have MK become Marth's worst match isn't really saying much considering its his only one.

>_>"

 

[PhantomX]

Inui is hilarious. "We're all better than you guys b/c I say so [we have M2K so that obv means we're all in his league], and everything my opponents/friends say is fact."

 

[Ken Neth]

Inui is hilarious. "We're all better than you guys b/c I say so [we have M2K so that obv means we're all in his league], and everything my opponents/friends say is fact."

That's the basic feeling I've been getting from all his posts too!!! haha. Also the part where he thinks that people not in his region have no idea what they're talking about, and that the character boards don't know what they're talking about either, is pretty ridiculous.

 

[Espy Rose]

I try to only listen to BlackWaltz and Atomsk about Olimar's match-ups because I see them very often and they are both extremely good with Olimar. What character boards say...doesn't mean a whole lot to me. They could very easily be wrong.

Sweet mother of gods. Stuff like this makes me want to cry.

 

[Overswarm]

We banned them FOR EXACTLY THE SAME REASON. Well, minus PS2. I will admit that PS2 is banned mostly because it's despised and unpopular. Everything else, though, was because we deemed them unfit for competitive play.

Most infinites break the game. Negating DK, Bowser, and Ness to 100% irrelevant and worthless characters is stupid. Now THAT is terrible for the game, not MK existing.

Whoa whoa whoa....

So Metaknight, who completely destroys the entire cast and is the best choice every time, isn't bannable in the slightest...

But D3's infinite is?

That's pretty lame. Use DK, Bowser, and Ness against non-D3 players. You've managed to really hurt Bum, since he won't know what the hell to do if he ever leaves NY. We'll just pick D3 and destroy him

 

[PhantomX]

That's the basic feeling I've been getting from all his posts too!!! haha. Also the part where he thinks that people not in his region have no idea what they're talking about, and that the character boards don't know what they're talking about either, is pretty ridiculous.

Are you kidding? Most of those players probably aren't even in the Atlantic North!

 

[Ken Neth]

Are you kidding? Most of those players probably aren't even in the Atlantic North!

Shoot, I completely forgot about that. Just disregard my whole post since no one outside of the Atlantic North could have any idea what they're talking about, including myself.[/sarcasm]

haha Phantom, your post made me lol. Too good.

 

[cman]

Wait, so Inui is trying to argue that olimar will be top tier along with marth, snake, DDD, rob, ralco, and g&w in a post-MK game, and says thats bad???

7 top tier chars sounds a lot better than 1 to me.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Yoshi mainers disagree about it being 55/45 for Yoshi. Snake is strongly debated, so while it may in fact be the case that's going to be a while before it can be determined, and since it's such a slim advantage if it does exist is hard to change how it works.

Basically, here's the problem with the advantage being so minor (And you did answer my question, I'm just explaining why it's not enough to make MK okay):

Round 1, Snake vs. MK. Neutral stage, 50:50.

Round 2, MK lost round 1 (Flipped a coin and he lost), counterpicks a bad stage for Snake: Better than 55:45.

Round 3, Snake picks his best anti-MK level: 55:45 Snake.

So just by playing MK, his absolute worst matchup at even skill levels gives the MK player better odds of winning. That's the best character that can oppose MK. Everyone else, just by playing MK, the MK player has shifted the odds of winning even though they are equally skilled even further towards his side because he can't be CP'ed to even 55:45 against him.

MK is a problem because at even skill levels, no matter what the opponent does, the MK player has an advantage that can't be overcome. Just by playing MK, he is statistically favored to win no matter what the response is, you can see it coming and you can't do a thing about it. No other character in the game can do this.

The difference between our views most likely comes from me believing the advantage isn't as great as people claim it too be while you believe it does. I don't see the advantage being so great other characters can't overcome it. 60:40 is bad, but it's not that bad that people can't overcome it reasonably.

The point your bringing up is although he has options to be put against him, he doesn't have enough against him from what Snake, Yoshi or anyone that does better than the average character. Since he is too good, he's going to over centralize the game.

The problem is I've seen, and played, games that have had much worse in terms of centralization. One of them being MvC2, one of the worst games in terms of tier balance. It was able to survive competitively with it's piss poor viability.

Brawl should be able to survive with MK, if it looks like it won't or his dominance rises, then sign-me for the ban.

 

[salaboB]

The difference between our views most likely comes from me believing the advantage isn't as great as people claim it too be while you believe it does. I don't see the advantage being so great other characters can't overcome it. 60:40 is bad, but it's not that bad that people can't overcome it reasonably.

The point your bringing up is although he has options to be put against him, he doesn't have enough against him from what Snake, Yoshi or anyone that does better than the average character. Since he is too good, he's going to over centralize the game.

The summary of my point is that there are three rounds you can look at: First round is worst case 55:45 Snake's favor per M2K (And apparently "all" Snakes are not camping enough for this to be true, also by M2K, so I'm uncertain if this is accurate -- they'd have to start doing it more for people to find out if there were in fact no ways around it) a CP round by MK that tips it significantly towards him, and a CP round by his opponent that again is only slightly against him if at all.

So he statistically will win more than half the time no matter who his opponent is, just by making use of a stage CP versus them, because he is MK. They can be aware of this and the absolute best they can pull is to play Snake, and they'll still be disadvantaged overall.

Equally skilled players shouldn't be able to announce who they'll be playing and have their opponents be forced to ditto them if they don't want to face a disadvantage. No other character in the game can do that, so he makes skill matter less and that's not what competitive Smash is about (Player skill determining outcome)

Given it's such an advantage to be playing him, you're also a scrub (Self-limiting from your best chances of winning) if you don't play as MK unless you are certain who your opponent will pick and can counterpick them.

Edit: Of course, a semi-soft ban seems to be going into effect as people aren't choosing MK because of how much "You suck if you play MK" is floating around. That means they're listening to scrubs, and are also just opening the way for generally easier victories for those who do play MK and will be able to make use of the CP situation I just outlined. Note I'm nowhere saying it's an instant-win if you play MK, but it's an advantage that requires no extra ability on your part to acquire -- just main MK and you're instantly advantaged in any overall set.

 

[Inui]

Whoa whoa whoa....

So Metaknight, who completely destroys the entire cast and is the best choice every time, isn't bannable in the slightest...

That's false. He loses to Snake and has numerous even/only slight advantage matches.

 

[St. Viers]

How about we play the "let's look at what people are actually saying game..."

He's saying that Olimar will be rising regardless of MK. Because Olimar is good. What he said is that people will start complaining about olimar when MK leaves.

Also, the character boards are 95% idiots, and the other 5% are the top players of the characters. The Boards themselves aren't great sources of info, and the stickies in the ones I visit are almost never updated, meaning that they still have character guides based around pre-release/early months of brawl. Talking to good players is almost always better than going to the char. boards.

It just happens that regions are greatly divided, and each feel that their top players are the countries. However, NA region has the most famous melee pros (excepting ken, DSW, SW and a few others), and has a large number of known brawl top players: most notably M2K, Cort). Until we have huge interstate tournies, whoch region is better is not 100% settled, but us having M2K helps =P

 

[memphischains]

inui is smart

 

[XienZo]

Yes, Olimar will soon be at an advantage against everyone else soon, and we shall dominate the entire metagame! Ha, and most people won't know how to play him, especially like his aerials' clanking abilities or the increased amount of specific pikmin on certain stages!

Except for Peach... dumb turnips are bigger than pikmin...

 

[Swordplay]

Looking at stage list right now....

Huh that (random stage) stage might be a MK counter.....

O wait it is banned.....

To bad.....Looks like I can't counter pick Meta with a legal stage list......

sigh......This is the case with stages.....

....If only I could play Bridge of Eldin with D3.......


Edit: Probably something that was stupid to say. O well bring on the flaming.....

 

[Atomsk_92]

Olimar has the ablilty to not let a character get near him. He is like falco in melee, when ever a situation gets grim you can resort to camping your projectile. MK can't really approach olimar, if he tries to dash in he gets grabbed, if he tries to camp above with dairs he gets up smashed or up b'd, if he tries to just camp olimar he gets veggies thrown at him and if he tries to tornado in he'll get grabbed. Olimar also has the ablitly to deal damage really quick and kill at relativley low percents. killing meta at mid 70s with a purple pikmin or late 80s early 90s with a red one is sorta gay. Plus olimars pivot grab CANNOT be punished. Early grab combos **** over mk as well because if it'll force MK to approach if he gets grabbed at the start of the match because he'll take somewhere from 43-52% in which case olimar can just camp him with retreating pikmin toss into pivot grab and if he tries to hover above he'll just get up smashed. Any grab you get on MK will automatically put him at a disadvantage because it will automatically allow you to camp him again and repeat the process of not letting him approach

Looking at stage list right now....

Huh that (random stage) stage might be a MK counter.....

O wait it is banned.....

i didn't know Haliberd was banned XD

 

[Ulevo]

Whoa whoa whoa....

So Metaknight, who completely destroys the entire cast

I love your overly biased choice of words, OS.

 

[Joxer]

i played some mk player umbra today and i beat him taking 45% in tourney match, and he ended up getting 3rd. idk why I'm even good vs MK it's prolly cuz everyone else uses him so I just learned the match. It's not even just MK dittos I'm fine at it with ddd and snake too. I can't believe ppl want him banned, just learn/master 1 matchup.

What does everyone think of M2K's opinion on banning MK? What I find interesting is that M2K claims he beats MK consistently with snake and DDD, even though DDD has a horrible matchup against MK. Is it possible that that people are spending too much time complaining about MK and not enough time simply learning his tactics and how to counter them in a match?

 

[Inui]

Looking at stage list right now....

Huh that (random stage) stage might be a MK counter.....

O wait it is banned.....

To bad.....Looks like I can't counter pick Meta with a legal stage list......

sigh......This is the case with stages.....

....If only I could play Bridge of Eldin with D3.......


Edit: Probably something that was stupid to say. O well bring on the flaming.....

MK isn't really beatable at Norfair or Hanenbow, but I ban those stages, too.

Is it possible that that people are spending too much time complaining about MK and not enough time simply learning hes tactics and how to counter them in a match?

Obviously LOL.

 

[Overswarm]

Is it possible that that people are spending too much time complaining about MK and not enough time simply learning hes tactics and how to counter them in a match?

What are you talking about? I already picked up MK.

 

[Mew2King]

dude honestly most counterpicks shouldn't even be allowed on

this goes for melee stages too. wtf @ letting green greens, corneria, poke floats, rainbow cruise, great bay, mushroom kingdom, and at one point in 05 and 06 peach's castle was allowed on sometimes too. ********. EXTREMELY good fox stages. If you are fighting someone good that is gay enough to pick those stages, it really helps to have a good fox, since he's good on the vast majority of gay stages, AND has lasers so he NEVER has to approach except for a kill. Fox isn't even bad on Brinstar, and if you don't mess up on jungle japes he's good there too, although I personally prefer sheik for those 2 stages. Fox is the same as MK in terms of matchups and gay stages counterpicks, except harder to use since melee is actually a good game.

 

[BentoBox]

Okay seriously, what's with all the Melee anecdotes, lol? I don't see how any of this is relevant.

 

[Joxer]

It's relevant because the exact same situations that exist now with MK existed in the past in Melee, and no one was calling to ban that character (Fox).

 

[IDK]

i, myself, do much better against MK now that i picked him up. i didnt to it to play as him, i did it to play against him.

 

[Atomsk_92]

It's relevant because the exact same situations that exist now with MK existed in the past in Melee, and no one was calling to ban that character (Fox).

Plus the meta game had evolved drastically by then yet those situations were still there

The meta game for brawl just has to advance more

 

[salaboB]

It's relevant because the exact same situations that exist now with MK existed in the past in Melee, and no one was calling to ban that character (Fox).

Fox had some noticably bad stages.

Even the banned "bad" ones for MK aren't *that* bad for him.

It's not the exact same situation.

 

[Praxis]

dude honestly most counterpicks shouldn't even be allowed on

this goes for melee stages too. wtf @ letting green greens, corneria, poke floats, rainbow cruise, great bay, mushroom kingdom, and at one point in 05 and 06 peach's castle was allowed on sometimes too. ********. EXTREMELY good fox stages. If you are fighting someone good that is gay enough to pick those stages, it really helps to have a good fox, since he's good on the vast majority of gay stages, AND has lasers so he NEVER has to approach except for a kill. Fox isn't even bad on Brinstar, and if you don't mess up on jungle japes he's good there too, although I personally prefer sheik for those 2 stages. Fox is the same as MK in terms of matchups and gay stages counterpicks, except harder to use since melee is actually a good game.

I did NOT just hear you insult Green Greens.

Best stage in this game, and anyone who thinks it should be banned is just fighting dumb.

BAH GREEN GREENS HATERS! YOU HAVE NO TASTE.

T_T

He didn't mean it, Greens, I promise...

 

[Mew2King]

I have used green greens in tourney against mango and chu before and once in teams, but i do accept it as a retardedly good fox stage that shouldn't be allowed to be picked except in friendlies if you're just playing for fun

 

[Praxis]

I use green greens in tourney, but i do accept it as a retardedly good fox stage

I'm practically married to it. >.<

Sure, it's a retardedly good Fox stage. It's also a retardedly good Praxis stage.

EDIT: YOU EDITED!

that shouldn't be allowed to be picked except in friendlies if you're just playing for fun

Take it back meanie T_T

 

[Joxer]

Yoshi's Island Melee is one of my favorite picks against MK.

The slopes prevent dsmash KOs via teching. Shuttle Loop gets stuck in the platforms. And there's only one side for for edgeguarding - both for limiting edgeguard kills and nullifying his recovery. Plus the place is TINY giving you a better chance of killing him.

Green Greens offers some of the same aspects. Blocks prevent dsmash kills, close blastzones allow for actual deaths, stupid MKs will set off the blocks with their ultra-ranged attacks, Praxis wrote some stuff up about it...

I also read somewhere Norfair is good against him, due to the many ledges irritating his edgeguarding.

This is in response to the claim that MK has no bad stage picks. Thoughts? Does this disprove that opinion?

 

[Genome Squirrel]

i'm sorry for asking this, since i'm fairly certain someone explained this earlier, but why is there so much so much discussion about counter picking characters and stages when talking about metaknight. i can understand the desire to want to have a character go even with metaknight, but arguing based off having counter picks seems to go along the logic that tournaments aren't based on player skill but inherent charcter ability. and even if metaknight did have a counterpick, couldn't the other player counterpick against metaknight's supposed counter pick.

i know brawl is not as competitive as melee, but we are getting character winning who aren't snake and metaknight, and there seems to people who like the idea of facing a metaknight. brawl has good players winning consistently, and there isn't strong evidence metaknight pwns everyone. if you want to play brawl perhaps you should either accept it as is (with metaknight); alternatively you could play some game that meets your competitive standards (|V|3133) instead of forcing standards on other players who accpet the game despite it faults.

 

[BentoBox]

It's relevant because the exact same situations that exist now with MK existed in the past in Melee, and no one was calling to ban that character (Fox).

Please enlighten me. What counterpicks are currently allowed in brawl that vastly improve MK's performance and that should be banned? I only know of two maps where he doesn't do as well and that's FD and Green Greens, the latter being banned by some TOs. Again, how does Fox' situation counterpick wise relate in any to the current? People have proposed unbanning Bridge of Eldin and shadow moses if faced against a MK, but I don't see that happening any time soon. And fox had marth and sheik to worry about.

 

[Joxer]

dude honestly most counterpicks shouldn't even be allowed on

this goes for melee stages too. wtf @ letting green greens, corneria, poke floats, rainbow cruise, great bay, mushroom kingdom, and at one point in 05 and 06 peach's castle was allowed on sometimes too. ********. EXTREMELY good fox stages. If you are fighting someone good that is gay enough to pick those stages, it really helps to have a good fox, since he's good on the vast majority of gay stages, AND has lasers so he NEVER has to approach except for a kill. Fox isn't even bad on Brinstar, and if you don't mess up on jungle japes he's good there too, although I personally prefer sheik for those 2 stages. Fox is the same as MK in terms of matchups and gay stages counterpicks, except harder to use since melee is actually a good game.

M2K states MK was the same as Fox in terms of stage picks and matchups, thus, a similar situation. Also, MK has snake to worry about.

 

[Atomsk_92]

And fox had marth and sheik to worry about.

MK has Olimar and Snake to worry about

 

[BentoBox]

Fox, Sheik and Marth had, on paper, similar odds of winning. I'm not refering to counterpicks, but character potential.

MK does not share the podium with anybody else.

Hence, not a similar situation.

Those comparisons need to stop, things aren't as shallow as you make em out to be.