The Official "Should/Will Metaknight be banned?" Thread (LISTEN TO THE SBR PODCAST!)

[salaboB]

That's not I said at all.

For the love of god read the entire post.

My apologies, I was too used to your blatant disregard of your opponents' arguments and made an assumption about what you were still saying.

 

[Fletch]

Because of this, there were no real good counterpicks against marth:
Fox/falco: EVEN, despite their impressive long range zoning.
Sheik: SLIGHT disadvantage, but still neutral. Again, unless you were equally skilled with fox/falco/sheik, no reason to change.
Marth: EVEN, as it's a ditto.
Falcon: Advantage.
Peach: Advantage.

Falcon has the advantage on Marth. May not be a huge one, but it's definitely there. See over the weekend when M2K picked Sheik when playing against Darkrain's Falcon. Also, out of the top 4, I think the biggest advantage between all their matches is Sheik over Marth. It may not be an unwinnable match, but it's a big advantage that does cause a lot of Marths to CP.

Which is why Falco's and Fox's would tend to go for FD where they could make use of their long range zoning.

They'd only pick FD if they wanted to get CG'ed to death.

 

[fkacyan]

My apologies, I was too used to your blatant disregard of your opponents' arguments and made an assumption about what you were still saying.

Go go ad hominem.

 

[salaboB]

Go go ad hominem.

It's still the reason, and isn't ad hominem any more than you saying I didn't read your post is.

For instance, the main point in favor of banning MK brought up by Shadowlink is that MK does bad things to the usual counterpicking in Brawl. You ignored it in favor of responding against the dominance argument, which was not what was being presented to you in the post you referred to.

Edit: The part that was a response to you was saying exactly what you are: The top players will win no matter who they use. You have no disagreement with Shadowlink on that.

 

[Dark Sonic]

Because of this, there were no real good counterpicks against marth:
Fox/falco: EVEN, despite their impressive long range zoning.
Sheik: SLIGHT disadvantage, but still neutral. Again, unless you were equally skilled with fox/falco/sheik, no reason to change.
Marth: EVEN, as it's a ditto.
Falcon: Advantage.
Peach: Advantage.

Fox/Falco. Take Marth to any counterpick stage really. Corneria, Green Greens, Pokefloats, Jungle Japes, Rainbow Cruise you'd be suprised how quickly Marth players switch to another character on these stages.

Shiek. Once again, counterpick stages are your friend. You'll notice this trend because Marth sucks on counterpick stages! FoD is and FD are pretty good stages for this matchup too.

Falcon. Actually, Falcon has a slight advantage on Marth. Take Marth to a large stage like Dreamland or FD and focus on forcing the Marth player to approach. I'm not so sure about counterpick stages for this match though (is Falcon good on any of them?)

Peach. Well, it's Marth vs Peach, not much you can do here (you can pick Mute city though and try to even up the matchup).

So yeah, the arguement does hold, you were just too caught up on the "neutral" stages, which Marth excels on in the first place, when making your comparison. But the reality is that since you're counter picking, you are not limited to just the neutral stages, and Marth just fails on all of the counter picks.

I'm saying that counterpicking against marth wouldn't cause you to win if you couldn't otherwise. Picking a character and stage simply hindered the marth, but it didn't force the player to not choose marth. (unlike, say, CPing FD/falco against a DK main....I hope this makes sense

It doesn't make sense because your statement just isn't true. Corneria+Fox, Mute City+Fox/Peach, Jungle Japes+Falco, FD/Dreamland+Falcon (there's a reason Marths ban these stages against him!) A stage counterpick+character counterpick is more than enough to severely hinder Marth, to the point that playing as Marth is just a bad option (you should switch to someone that does well on that stage, because god knows Marth doesn't)

 

[St. Viers]

Falcon has the advantage on Marth. May not be a huge one, but it's definitely there. See over the weekend when M2K picked Sheik when playing against Darkrain's Falcon. Also, out of the top 4, I think the biggest advantage between all their matches is Sheik over Marth. It may not be an unwinnable match, but it's a big advantage that does cause a lot of Marths to CP.

really, I thought it was marths favor due to more priority, faster attacks, easy gimps, and range. All falcon has is speed, and combos, both of which marth also has... but maybe I'm wrong.

Also, didn't people realize in like 04/05 that shiek/marth was much more even than previously thought? I think it's 6:4 or something right?

They'd only pick FD if they wanted to get CG'ed to death.

^_^

@Dark sonic: Except for mute city, I was unaware that the CP stages were bad for marth....but then again, most people I played just picked neutrals.

Also, thanks for the falcon explanation.

 

[adumbrodeus]

I hear you're the best Meta Knight in FL atm.

You swap off of your main to fight Snake.

I personally like going Dedede against Snake.

BECAUSE META KNIGHT LOSES TO SNAKE.

This has been addressed many times...

This is totally and utterly false, MK loses to Snake only if his spacing is bad, otherwise Snake has nothing on MK.

Really BAD, there's a noticable difference between MK's safe range and Snake's safe range. Quite Simply, at that point nade spamming is unsafe, and Snake doesn't have any tools to force him to approach closer. From there, MK has his way with Snake.

-Meta Knight can't get near Snake if you turn the stage into a minefield and make fireworks all day.

Snake needs the c4 for recovery, which leaves him with the mines. Mines cover one side at a time, and placing them is very unsafe.

Nades are useful, but when used, but he CAN'T continue spamming with them below a certain range, they're just unsafe to pull.

-Meta Knight dies at very low damage while Snake lives forever.

Which doesn't matter if it's a lot easier for MK to rack damage on Snake and gimp him.

-Having faster moves =/= instant win. I don't know why you'd think that.

I don't, but it is extremely useful because it means that a lot of MK's moves can't be beaten on reaction. Under 7 frames, you have to predict.

-Meta Knight's d-tilt loses to the second hit of Snake's f-tilt and if Snake drops grenades they will blow Meta Knight up if he d-tilts.

We did the frame data... Snake's ftilt's second hit is slow enough that it basically will hit MK if he's asleep, he's got more then enough reaction time before the second hitbox comes out. He has plenty of time to shield and then punish, even with a whiffed dtilt. And since it so unsafe, there's no way you can space using it.

Dtilt out ranges the nade's explosion in this case (since only half the range is being used). Doing that is just losing part of your shield and giving yourself shieldstun on purpose.

 

[Dark Sonic]

really, I thought it was marths favor due to more priority, faster attacks, easy gimps, and range. All falcon has is speed, and combos, both of which marth also has... but maybe I'm wrong.

Well, the speed is more of a problem that previously thought. A Falcon that camps with...dash dances (lol?) can really give Marth problems, because he simply can't space an approach and will likely miss when he tries. Missing with Marth gives Falcon a free grab, which is easy for Falcon to combo out of.

The advantage is somewhat stage dependant though, because if Marth can get Falcon on a platform (preferably battlefield or YS height platforms), then he just destroys him, but on stages like FD or Dreamland where there's a lot of room for Falcon to run, Marth has very little control over the situation.

Also, didn't people realize in like 04/05 that shiek/marth was much more even than previously thought? I think it's 6:4 or something right?

This is true, but it's still Shiek's advantage and still a situation where picking Marth is putting yourself at a slight disadvantage (FoD is a great Shiek vs Marth stage btw. Shiek gets more benifit from the low platforms than Marth does. And Marth is so tall that he often pokes his head above the platforms

^_^

@Dark sonic: Except for mute city, I was unaware that the CP stages were bad for marth....but then again, most people I played just picked neutrals.

Yeah, they're pretty bad. But I'd only suggest using them if you are confident on those stages. Playing on a stage that you're not comfortable on could put you at a skill disadvantage. Marth may be bad on counterpick stages, but if you don't take advantage of the stage well then the point is moot.

People don't pick counterpick stages because they're just not used to doing it (more Fox's are picking stages like Corneria and Green Greens though), and don't really practice enough on those stages to give them a practical advantage. But it's still a perfectly viable option for counterpicking against Marth.

Fox? Not so much, he does well on most counterpick stages to (well, except like Brinstar and stuff), so it's really just picking a stage that's better for you than it is for him (Marth on battlefield).

 

[BrawlLover]

Falcon has the advantage on Marth. May not be a huge one, but it's definitely there. See over the weekend when M2K picked Sheik when playing against Darkrain's Falcon. Also, out of the top 4, I think the biggest advantage between all their matches is Sheik over Marth. It may not be an unwinnable match, but it's a big advantage that does cause a lot of Marths to CP.



They'd only pick FD if they wanted to get CG'ed to death.

zachtlllyyy

 

[ShadowLink84]

Top players use MK because it requires less effort to win with him than their other mains. However, if said top players weren't using MK, the dominance you're pointing out likely wouldn't exist.

let us assume you are correct ins aying that because the top players use him MK is dominant. would this remove the fact that Mk has an undeniable advantage? Would this change the fact that he has no solid weaknesses? No true exploits?
Would this change the fact that he causes issues with the CP system?

again even if his dominance was the result of the top players influence, it does not change those facts.

The capabilities of a the player is NEVER taken into account.

Remember, Akuma does not dominate in Japan at all but he is still a character that is ban worthy.

Evidence is there to suggest that top players win with or without him. Thus, the dominance is not a result of MK.

Honestly, it's not that hard to understand.

Again I am repeating myself for the 4th time to you.
The abilities of the player does NOT matter.

In SF2 the top 3 players who used akuma still remained the top 3 players in SF2 and dominated with their respective characters. Their skill compensated for the character themselves.

This still does NOT change the fact that Akuma was a ban worthy character. jus because the top players continue to win with or without Akuma did not change the fact that Akuma is a broken character.

So even if M2K is not winning with MK does not mean MK is not ban worthy. All it means is that the top players don't use him.

Now as for your evidence. Where is it? If you remove the results of M2K, DSF, Azen and place them with ANY character MK still remains a dominant character.

MK dominates with a 27% with Snake coming in 12% and the next 4 ranging from 5-8%.
MK would still remain dominant if the top players stopped using him completely.

Where is the proof that if the top 3 players ceased using him that he would cease being dominant?


@fletch: Ahh such a terrible error on my part. I need to get back on track with melee instead of sidetracking with brawl so much >.<

 

[Fletch]

really, I thought it was marths favor due to more priority, faster attacks, easy gimps, and range. All falcon has is speed, and combos, both of which marth also has... but maybe I'm wrong.

Also, didn't people realize in like 04/05 that shiek/marth was much more even than previously thought? I think it's 6:4 or something right?

It is about 6:4, but at that high of a level, that is a significant difference. Throw in a CP stage and that matchup can be even worse. 6:4 is different in Melee since the top tiers are actually very close in overall ability, and thus this is probably the worst matchup between the top 4.

Also, I was trying to find some good quotes about the Falcon/Marth matchup, but couldn't find anything good to explain it. Someone who plays one of those two could probably explain it a little better than I could, but basically Falcon can combo the hell out of Marth. Unfortunately, Falcon does get gimped pretty easily, but most people think this is around 55:45 in Falcon's favor, and again, can be even better on a CP stage.

@Dark sonic: Except for mute city, I was unaware that the CP stages were bad for marth....but then again, most people I played just picked neutrals.

Yep, unfortunately Marth does do very well on the neutrals (I hate him), but if you play Fox and CP a stage like Green Greens (my favorite) or Corneria, the matchup becomes completely different.

@fletch: Ahh such a terrible error on my part. I need to get back on track with melee instead of sidetracking with brawl so much >.<

Doesn't everyone?

 

[ShadowLink84]

I agree though I wish it had Sonic

 

[Mocha19]

Dang.. I can't believe this thread is still popular..

 

[adumbrodeus]

Dang.. I can't believe this thread is still popular..

It's a very controversial issue in the community with a number of well-respected players on either side, why wouldn't the thread still be popular?

 

[ShadowLink84]

This should make people chuckle a bit


Midwest: xxxxoxxxxoxxox 3/14 (21.4%)
Pacific West: xxoxoxxoxxxxxxx 3/15 (20%)
Atlantic North: xxooxxoooxoxxooox 9/17 (52.9%)
Atlantic South: xoxxxx 1/6 (16.7%)
Southwest: ooooxxoxxooo 8/12 (66.7%)
Australia: oxoxx 2/5 (40%)
Canada: o 1/1 (100%)
Europe: x 0/1 (0%)

 

[XienZo]

Wait, what, I thought the statistics were different earlier! I thought AN didn't have problems with MK... or maybe I just have bad memory... probably the latter...

 

[ShadowLink84]

Those are the statistics of sept-oct

 

[fkacyan]

Whatever that is fails, because it's not labled at all.

What is it?

 

[ShadowLink84]

its a percentage of MK's wins.

(response to the claim that Atlantic North does better than most regions against Meta Knight)

This is so interesting that I thought I'd compile Meta Knight's win percentage in the various regions in the way Ankoku tracks them. I'll leave in the "raw data" as I counted them from the bottom up so people can look it over and check me on any mistakes I might have made. This only looks at September and October.

Midwest: xxxxoxxxxoxxox 3/14 (21.4%)
Pacific West: xxoxoxxoxxxxxxx 3/15 (20%)
Atlantic North: xxooxxoooxoxxooox 9/17 (52.9%)
Atlantic South: xoxxxx 1/6 (16.7%)
Southwest: ooooxxoxxooo 8/12 (66.7%)
Australia: oxoxx 2/5 (40%)
Canada: o 1/1 (100%)
Europe: x 0/1 (0%)

Well, Canada and Europe obviously suck at reporting results so you can safely ignore them (though oddly Australia seems to report just fine). It seems to me like Southwest is the main place Meta Knight is doing so well, and it's only 4th activity wise so I doubt their metagame is way more developed than the rest of the nation. It's flat out uncanny that the reports are that the Northeast is the region that handles him best; they are one of the only two regions with more than one result that have a greater than 50% win rate for Meta Knight.

 

[IxxI]

TL;DR version: Banning MK doesn't in any way lead to the conclusion that we'll all be forced to main Captain Falcon as the only still-legit character in half a year. Cool and manly as though it would be. Just wanted to get this out of the way so there can actually be some interesting discussion in this thread instead of it derailing to a ton of slippery slopes and the inevitable refutation of said arguments, on and on until we're all so old the only way we'll be able to continue smashing is through the aid of nurses pressing the buttons for us while we gag and choke on old-people pills in pretty colours and dote upon our grandchildren.

TL;DR
hahah

 

[Inui]

None of those players do consistently well. You're just like M2K. You quote random matches and sets and use those results to make yourself look good. It reminds me of arguing with M2K.



Summary: I play a TON of Brawl and win lots of scrub tournaments but never win or place in the money when good players are present.

Arguing with you IS just like arguing with M2K! You practically do the work for me. I'm sorry that you've wasted your time with a gargantuan post, but you are just losing credibility by the second.

You're a fucking idiot.

The best Diddy in the country, the best ZSS, and the best DK are scrubs? A Dedede that has defeated NEO, Forte, ChuDat, and Omni in serious sets is a scrub? I won $400 at a tournament with all of them present recently.

You know NOTHING about my region if you're saying those players don't do well consistently. They do. teh_spamerer places in the money 100% of the time. Bum always wins in NY. Snakeee, Atomsk, and NinjaLink always place high.

Why are you such an ignorant piece of shit? Why would say the strongest region is nothing but a bunch of scrubs? How can you claim our top players aren't consistent when results disagree? YOUR region is the one that sucks, dude.

You're stupid.

@ Leeharris. The people Inui talked about DO place high in the tournies they enter. Although there is some change between how they place amongst themselves, that's because with the exception of M2K, and perhaps teh_spammer, they are all equally good.

Also, you can't have it both ways. You can't say that Inui is only doing good because of his recent adoption of MK, and then change what your saying (to, lol you scrub, you only win scrub tournies) when he shows that his ranking (usually between 4-8, though sometimes 2, and the occasional 1st) have been conistent from before/after his maining MK.

You seem to be trying to say that Inui's position is that "I'm good, listen to me," but in reality the only reason he posted that was to debunk your claim that he's only placing high because of using MK now.

Also, the EC, and the North Atlantic region in general has the strongest players, how can you even deny that?

QFT

LeeHarris, go to Hell.

 

[kr3wman]

Inui is digging himself a hole even deeper and deeper...

Inui, even if you presented all those tournament results back like 5 pages or so, there's one tournament where you place higher than all those people. One. 1.

 

[aeghrur]

I like watching Inui post, it's funny, lol.

 

[BentoBox]

That wasn't the point though. His region happens to have a majority of the best players in the states. The best MK being amongst them, they believe they have sufficient experience in the matchup to state as a fact that MK is far from being unbeatable.

If Inui only placed higher than these people in 1 tourney, that only reinforces the point that MK is beatable...

 

[cutter]

You're a fucking idiot.

The best Diddy in the country, the best ZSS, and the best DK are scrubs? A Dedede that has defeated NEO, Forte, ChuDat, and Omni in serious sets is a scrub? I won $400 at a tournament with all of them present recently.

You know NOTHING about my region if you're saying those players don't do well consistently. They do. teh_spamerer places in the money 100% of the time. Bum always wins in NY. Snakeee, Atomsk, and NinjaLink always place high.

Why are you such an ignorant piece of shit? Why would say the strongest region is nothing but a bunch of scrubs? How can you claim our top players aren't consistent when results disagree? YOUR region is the one that sucks, dude.

You're stupid.



QFT

LeeHarris, go to Hell.

Did you really have to bypass the censor and flame/troll the hell out of him?

 

[aeghrur]

Did you really have to bypass the censor and flame/troll the hell out of him?

Yes, it was funny, lol.

 

[Yuna]

That wasn't the point though. His region happens to have a majority of the best players in the states. The best MK being amongst them, they believe they have sufficient experience in the matchup to state as a fact that MK is far from being unbeatable.

If Inui only placed higher than these people in 1 tourney, that only reinforces the point that MK is beatable...

Exactly. They were just blind-sided by Inui's MK. Then they learned to deal with it. It's not like Inui randomly started placing twice as well as before.

Did you really have to bypass the censor and flame/troll the hell out of him?

How in the world do you bypass the censor for the F-word like that?

 

[Inui]

Inui is digging himself a hole even deeper and deeper...

Inui, even if you presented all those tournament results back like 5 pages or so, there's one tournament where you place higher than all those people. One. 1.

Nah, I consistently outplace Snakeee, Shadow, and NinjaLink in singles. I've only been in two tournaments with Bum there and I beat him and outplaced him at one and got outplaced by him without playing him at the next one. teh_spamerer and Mew2King...well, sorry. They're on another level than everyone else. I only outplaced teh_spamerer once, back in May.

That wasn't the point though. His region happens to have a majority of the best players in the states. The best MK being amongst them, they believe they have sufficient experience in the matchup to state as a fact that MK is far from being unbeatable.

Exactly!

How in the world do you bypass the censor for the F-word like that?

Color tags.

 

[kr3wman]

Nah, I consistently outplace Snakeee, Shadow, and NinjaLink in singles. I've only been in two tournaments with Bum there and I beat him and outplaced him at one and got outplaced by him without playing him at the next one. teh_spamerer and Mew2King...well, sorry. They're on another level than everyone else. I only outplaced teh_spamerer once, back in May.

You said all of them, I counted those with all of them.

 

[adumbrodeus]

That wasn't the point though. His region happens to have a majority of the best players in the states. The best MK being amongst them, they believe they have sufficient experience in the matchup to state as a fact that MK is far from being unbeatable.

If Inui only placed higher than these people in 1 tourney, that only reinforces the point that MK is beatable...

Since when was "being unbeatable" a ban criteria.

 

[BentoBox]

Since when was "being unbeatable" a ban criteria.

Theorycrafting and on-paper analysis or results @ top levels of play, which of these hold the most weight to you?

The pro-ban party claims that he is too good; has no counters and no bad stages. Inui's region in general is against the ban and M2K along with other top players believe Snake have the advantage. What to believe? Even if only one, that still invalidates the core of most pro-bans' arguments. People simply have to step it up.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Theorycrafting and on-paper analysis or results @ top levels of play, which of these hold the most weight to you?

The pro-ban party claims that he is too good; has no counters and no bad stages. Inui's region in general is against the ban and M2K along with other top players believe Snake have the advantage. What to believe? Even if only one, that still invalidates the core of most pro-bans' arguments. People simply have to step it up.

"Theorycrafting" is an analysis of the actual advantages and disadvantages, it inherently tells the reality of the situation, even though players may not be good enough to put it into practice in many cases. Sure, people can make mistakes on paper, but that's why we debate the match-ups, to analyze and check our information.

Regardless, the practical facts are that MK dominates Atlantic North by a very considerable margin, and due to the simple fact that when MK DID have the advantage (aka, when it was not known that MK could outspace Snake) Snake was the top character by far.

Regardless, a bad argument is still a bad argument. Having a single bad match-up doesn't necessarily mean that he shouldn't be banned.


On a complete sidenote: I find it rather hypocritical that a lot of Atlantic North TOs bans infinites, yet the region is against banning MK who is far more borderline.

Also M2K is an awesome player, I'll give him that. But his debating skills suck and he seems to take his opinions off of gut feelings rather then data. Basically, think the match-up through for yourself, figure out the critical junctions, and get data where it's needed. That will tell you what the match-up actually is.

 

[Inui]

Also M2K is an awesome player, I'll give him that. But his debating skills suck and he seems to take his opinions off of gut feelings rather then data. Basically, think the match-up through for yourself, figure out the critical junctions, and get data where it's needed. That will tell you what the match-up actually is.

You guys have no idea how his mind works. It's full of real data, including frame data and percents. He's got by far the most educated and valid opinions about Smash. I actually know him really well because we're good friends.

 

[kr3wman]

What is in M2K's head stays in M2K's head.

We are not are telepathically linked to his thoughts.

 

[cman]

You guys have no idea how his mind works. It's full of real data, including frame data and percents. He's got by far the most educated and valid opinions about Smash. I actually know him really well because we're good friends.

He does a terrible job of forming those stats into a coherent argument though. No offense to him of course.

 

[St. Viers]

On a complete sidenote: I find it rather hypocritical that a lot of Atlantic North TOs bans infinites, yet the region is against banning MK who is far more borderline.

Also M2K is an awesome player, I'll give him that. But his debating skills suck and he seems to take his opinions off of gut feelings rather then data. Basically, think the match-up through for yourself, figure out the critical junctions, and get data where it's needed. That will tell you what the match-up actually is.

How is it hypocritical to ban infinites (we banned wobbling in melee. I can't think of other infinites that have been banned in many tournies--maybe DDD infinate grabs(?). And the wobbling ban didn't stop local good icies from doing well...), which can match unwinnable without playing the same character, and not ban a character that does not guarantee a victory, as he has been beaten, unless te MK is M2K...

also, I agree that MK is more borderline, as borderline means in the grey area, meaning that there is more uncertainty; I don't think that was the word you're looking for.

Also, M2K can't debate, I agree, but what people do is make fun of him for it rather than look at the facts he presents. When he says something that sounds like gut feeling, most of the time it's because he doesn't take the time to say all the factors that lead him to believe it; bad debate strategy, but it shouldn't make what he says automatically discounted.

 

[Overswarm]

D3 infinite grabs nor wobbling were ever banned by the SBR.

In reality, having those banned kind of discounts a lot of your results. No one cares how good Bum is, because he'd get wrecked everywhere else by the D3 infinite. Unless that isn't the case, but then why do you ban it?

 

[Inui]

Anything that makes the game garbage should be banned. Meta Knight doesn't make the game garbage because he loses to Snake and can lose to a bunch of other characters. You also can't just pick Meta Knight and win, as results around here show. At a tournament yesterday every Meta Knight, including dmbrandon, placed low besides me and Shadow. I didn't even get 1st. Atomsk won the tournament with Olimar, a character far gayer than Meta Knight. There are no safe ways to ever approach Olimar. He is a fortress.

Wobbling made Melee suck because it was just...ICs get a grab, you die after a long time of getting hit. Dedede's infinites make the game suck because they negate several characters that have no business getting negated. Walk-offs and walled stages make the game suck for the same reasons they did in Melee except the stuff you do with them now got more boring.

Algol is getting banned in SC4 because he makes the game suck, not because he's broken.

Now, this may contradict what I said about Meta Knight staying allowed because he's not broken and that being the best reason, but that still stands. You have to prove he makes the game suck. If you ban excessive stalling and ledgecamping, then he can't make the game suck because he can't abuse the ledge.

 

[Coffee™]

If you ban excessive stalling and ledgecamping, then he can't make the game suck because he can't abuse the ledge.

Excessive stalling is already banned and Ledgecamping more or less cannot be banned as there will always be loopholes that players can exploit, so this doesn't really lend itself to your argument.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Don't you think, that Brawl would be a better game without MK, Inui?