Isn't it adorable how many MKs took top 8 in those results that had the characters next to the winners?
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The Official "Should/Will Metaknight be banned?" Thread (LISTEN TO THE SBR PODCAST!)
- Thread starter SamuraiPanda
- Start date
- Status
Master Raven
Smash Master
Holy **** LMAO
Inui
Banned via Warnings
QFT
And, lol.
Also, to add on:
-Our best player destroyed every other region he competed in.
-Our second best player destroyed Texas and beat the West Coast's best player for the second time.
-Plank, who's probably somewhere around 10-15 in Atlantic North got 3rd on the West Coast when basically every top player on the West Coast was there. It was the largest tournament ever, afterall.
-Our best player and another top player at the time(Cort) dominated a Florida tournament in both Melee and Brawl.
-We have never let an OSS player win our tournaments in Brawl.
He asked for results. He said I only did well no nobody good was there. I proved him wrong. I merely posted results and facts. That's it. How can they be stupid?
Dominance = MK winning all money.
I didn't see that happen in any of the tourneys listed there.
... of like the 15 or so I looked at in that huge ****ing list.
Inui
Banned via Warnings
Mew2King and teh_spamerer are dominant players PERIOD. They're just better than everyone else around here. Well, Mew2King is. teh_spamerer is just near the top.
Yeah, placing like 1 spot higher is a huuuuuge difference.
Ban Fox in Melee, clearly good people who play with a good character will do better with said good character than a worse one they used to play!
Nobody's disputing that MK is the best character.
That's pretty **** subjective, and you know it.
Otherwise, this thread would've be done with on Page 1.
It is. Or are you fooling yourself?
Not to mention how Inui described how his region is the "best".
It's a HUGE difference if you place one spot closer to M2K, or something like that apparently.
Inui
Banned via Warnings
How is one spot higher a huge difference?
I'm using the best character in the game as my main now instead of Marth, who's somewhere near 7th or 8th best probably.
I'm obviously going to be doing better.
Meta Knight is the best character in the game. That's not being disputed at all. Anyone that mains better characters has an advantage, just not a huge one.
The only time I ever got 2nd to Mew2King is when I defeated dmbrandon and teh_spamerer.
With Marth.
MARTH.
100% Marth at that event.
Beating dmbrandon and teh_spamerer and outplacing NinjaLink, Snakeee, and Shadow.
If MK gets the lower 56 spots in a 64 person tourney, nobody would be clamoring for his ban because he wouldn't be winning.
I'd say only about 5% of the people who want his ban actually care about the metagame (And I still disagree with them there), and the other 95% are whiny people who are sick of losing to him.
Keep in mind, though, 67% of stats are made up on the spot.
Arguably, this thread shouldn't have begun. Answer these questions:
1) Is MK taking at least 5/8 spots in every top 8 in every tourney in the US?
2) Are people who are known to be less skilled than others winning tourneys they shouldn't be winning because of MK?
The answer to both is the answer to the question "Should he be banned?" Guess what the answer is.
Sorry, I used M2K as an example.
However, it's pretty accurate, since he always wins. The closer you get to placing behind M2K, the better you are, apparently.
Makes a big difference if your region is as tough as you describe it to be.
If anything, kudos on your results, or whatever.
MK is still lame.
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@Thiocyanide:
OMG. That's some intense paradox/contradiction.
I honestly feel that it's a bit harsh to group people into two groups like this. I for one actually care for the metagame (despite my attitudes and the like), and in all honesty, I actually enjoy playing against Meta Knights (keep in mind that I main SONIC).
It's akin to climbing a brick wall without any support. Impossible, but hella fun.
I said this in the first MK ban topic, so I'll say it again.
"I just want to see how the community will change when MK is banned."
memphischains
Smash hhkj'
i support puffball
Inui
Banned via Warnings
Is it just me or is chillindude829 literally the only top player from Atlantic North supporting MK's ban in the big poll about it? He's not posting about it, though.
Enlightenment...
he has it.
btw, a bit off topic, but...
Inui, who made that sexy signature of yours? It's tantalizing...like a witches' spell.
Inui
Banned via Warnings
Eh, I wouldn't say that chillindude829 is more enlightened than someone like Mew2King or teh_spamerer.
It was made by Tiltyu of the Fire Emblem community, namely Fire Emblem Fusion. I'm a famous Fire Emblem player(prolly second only to Eaichu in fame) and really active in FE stuff. :D
We have amazing GFX artists.
No no, M2K and spamerer have been tainted...why do you think M2K has suddenly started to act...peculiar in that M2K v. Dojo topic?
The disease is starting to physically harm him, and must be stopped, before it spreads to the other top-placing pros.
Oh dear god...we have to hide Azen!
All silly-ness aside, that's pretty awesome. I'm considering getting a new signature. This one is starting to feel a little outdated. It was made by sugarpoultry back in Melee, when her sig shop was opened. I've made small edits to it (like the Super Sonic), but that's about it, and I'm getting bored of it...
Inui
Banned via Warnings
The symptoms are already there: Azen has used MK in tournament...
Glad to cheer up this grim little topic.
BrawlLover
Smash Champion
omg no way dood, i can't believe azen used mk!!!! it was siiiiick
LeeHarris
Smash Lord
None of those players do consistently well. You're just like M2K. You quote random matches and sets and use those results to make yourself look good. It reminds me of arguing with M2K.
Summary: I play a TON of Brawl and win lots of scrub tournaments but never win or place in the money when good players are present.
Arguing with you IS just like arguing with M2K! You practically do the work for me. I'm sorry that you've wasted your time with a gargantuan post, but you are just losing credibility by the second.
Arbitrary criteria that could allow the competitive scene to die before being met. I can give you some of my own, if we're playing that game. Answer these questions:
1) Are the quantity of people using MK causing a noticable decrease in people interested in participating in Brawl tournaments?
2) Is MK slowing down the overall development of Brawl's metagame by overcentralizing ATs against himself and bringing a large number of players to use him?
3) Does MK break the character counterpick system that's an inherent disadvantage using any other character has?
4) Does MK break the stage counterpick system that's an inherent disadvantage using any other character has?
There are more besides this. How many must be said "Yes" to before he can be banned? (Question 1 is the weakest of these, there's little dispute that MK is slowing down the growth of other characters, and 3 and 4 are both simply how things are.)
BrawlLover
Smash Champion
ok ban metaknight then
That, as always, is up to the TOs. All we're doing is kicking around the reasons that it should be considered, and waiting for the MBR to decide where they'll make their recommendation -- which also isn't binding, but has a lot more weight behind it than anything said so far in these threads.
BrawlLover
Smash Champion
ok then ban metaknight
ShadowLink84
Smash Hero
Wait what?
A character does not have to win all the tournaments to be dominating.
They have to be winning the majority of them.
Old Sagat dominates in SF2 clearly.
Akuma clearly dominates everyone in SF2 but he never won ALL the tournaments.
Akuma sometimes gets used in Japan and the user gets wrecked. He still is ban worthy.
Your argument is that because of his wins people are clamoring for a ban which is not true at all.
They are calling for the ban not only because of how he wins very often, but because of many other factors.
His effect on the CP system, his effect overall in matchups.
Akuma was not banned just because he dominated tournaments, it was other factors besides that point.
The extent to which he dominated and the other factors.
Then why are you making them up? Seriously what is the point?
All thats being done is slapping people with a smelly fish.
In smaller tournaments? No but he does typically appear in 3 of them and thats been on the rise.
I remember a tournament where Inui's 2 week old MK beat Ninjalink's Diddy.
Let alone that skill is not taken into account BECAUSE IT IS PART OF FAULTY LOGIC.
I hope we were thinking the same.
Again stop citing about player skill.
Player skill>character ability.
you have people who are less skilled in SF2 using Akuma and they get wrecked.
Yet Akuma is ban worthy. This is the same for every other character out there.
How about more objective criteria.
1.To what extent does MK dominate the tournament scene?
2. What is the effect of MK on the CP system for characters?
3. ............................................................................. for stages?
4. Does he cause over centralization?
We know for a fact MK is not a powerhouse like Akuma, he goes 60/40 with alot of characters.
on the other hand, MK cannot be Cp'ed. He does well on all stages and against all characters. So no matter what he is the best choice.
There are some stages he does not do as well on (corneria, green greens) but the degree to which they hamper him is not enough.
He's not doing that, either.
Why are you advertising that dieing board that no one feels like reviving on the staff?
The way I see it is that you can main MK without any glaring weaknesses. At least in melee the gay 4 could counter each other and you may need to main more than one character. However, with meta knight, there's no need. You can literally play the whole game as meta knight and not have an unfavorable match up except against yourself and a **** good snake. I'm in favor of a soft ban, curious how tourneys will play out. I'm predicting Snake and D3 become heavily used if MK is banned.
ShadowLink84
Smash Hero
Wait did you just say MK is NOT dominating the tournament scene?
Clarify please.
MK statistically is around 27%.
The next character after MK is Snake who has 12%.
It takes the next 5 characters after MK in order to get past MK's 27% mark for something around 30 to 31%.
Which is only 3 or 4% difference to MK's.
He is dominating and if you look at the tournaments including those that inui posted, MK is clearly dominating.
The extent to which he dominates is what matters which is something everyone forgets.
Even if he does not dominate this does not necessarily mean he is not ban worthy. His dominance is only part a of proving his ban worthiness.
@ Leeharris. The people Inui talked about DO place high in the tournies they enter. Although there is some change between how they place amongst themselves, that's because with the exception of M2K, and perhaps teh_spammer, they are all equally good.
Also, you can't have it both ways. You can't say that Inui is only doing good because of his recent adoption of MK, and then change what your saying (to, lol you scrub, you only win scrub tournies) when he shows that his ranking (usually between 4-8, though sometimes 2, and the occasional 1st) have been conistent from before/after his maining MK.
You seem to be trying to say that Inui's position is that "I'm good, listen to me," but in reality the only reason he posted that was to debunk your claim that he's only placing high because of using MK now.
Also, the EC, and the North Atlantic region in general has the strongest players, how can you even deny that?
@the claims that MK should be banned because he breaks the CP system. In melee, one could use marth and never have to CP. Most of the time, unless you were *equally* good as sheik/ falco/fox, trying to CP another character would not make it easier for you to win.
Because of this, there were no real good counterpicks against marth:
Fox/falco: EVEN, despite their impressive long range zoning.
Sheik: SLIGHT disadvantage, but still neutral. Again, unless you were equally skilled with fox/falco/sheik, no reason to change.
Marth: EVEN, as it's a ditto.
Falcon: Advantage.
Peach: Advantage.
So yeah, that argument doesn't hold...except for EL's statement that it's different for the two games, because of the game engine. Although that's true, for this specific arguement it isn't.
@Shoadowlink. According to the pro-ban side, they dropped the >9000 arguement as a reason to ban him. So his tournie dominence is according to them not relevent to their reasons for wanting him banned.
Also, you can't have it both ways. You can't say that Inui is only doing good because of his recent adoption of MK, and then change what your saying (to, lol you scrub, you only win scrub tournies) when he shows that his ranking (usually between 4-8, though sometimes 2, and the occasional 1st) have been conistent from before/after his maining MK.
You seem to be trying to say that Inui's position is that "I'm good, listen to me," but in reality the only reason he posted that was to debunk your claim that he's only placing high because of using MK now.
Also, the EC, and the North Atlantic region in general has the strongest players, how can you even deny that?
@the claims that MK should be banned because he breaks the CP system. In melee, one could use marth and never have to CP. Most of the time, unless you were *equally* good as sheik/ falco/fox, trying to CP another character would not make it easier for you to win.
Because of this, there were no real good counterpicks against marth:
Fox/falco: EVEN, despite their impressive long range zoning.
Sheik: SLIGHT disadvantage, but still neutral. Again, unless you were equally skilled with fox/falco/sheik, no reason to change.
Marth: EVEN, as it's a ditto.
Falcon: Advantage.
Peach: Advantage.
So yeah, that argument doesn't hold...except for EL's statement that it's different for the two games, because of the game engine. Although that's true, for this specific arguement it isn't.
@Shoadowlink. According to the pro-ban side, they dropped the >9000 arguement as a reason to ban him. So his tournie dominence is according to them not relevent to their reasons for wanting him banned.
Once again, players.
M2k would be winning with or without MK.
Thus, you can't really define that as a win for the character nearly as much as the player behind him.
I don't care about regions other than my own in this example, by the way.
ShadowLink84
Smash Hero
Dude you might as well say that matchup ratios do not exist then.
The CP is ONLY effective when both players are of equal skill.
This is what is assumed so I cannot understand why you're acting as if people believe a CP will give a less skilled player an automatic advantage over a more skilled one.
Weren't this supposed to work into the CP system?
Again while Marth did not have any true CP's against him, there were CP
s that still hampered his capabilities.
Which is why Falco's and Fox's would tend to go for FD where they could make use of their long range zoning.
While it did not necessarily give them a great advantage, it did push the matchup towards their favor .
The CP's were never meant to function as a method of hard countering a character you were typically disadvantaged against nor did it intend to aim to aid noticeably lesser skilled players.
All they do is push the advantage to you depending on what was chosen.
In this game DDD does not have a a Cp that hits him hard. He does however, like Marth, have stages that do not favor him against certain characters. It does not hit hard but his game is hampered to a degree.
With MK, he is not hampered at all and if he is, to a much lesser degree than the Marth CP's.
Explicate on this part a bit.
Are you saying that because of melee's engine CP's weren't as effective and/or that they were less necessary?
Melee was much less matchup based due to its gameplay so a 6:4 in melee was not as bad as a 6:4 in brawl. So the effect of a CP in brawl is greater than in melee.
Considering that MK is not affected at all despite Brawl's engine I am rather unsure as to what you are saying about the Cp argument.
Its getting tiring to repeat myself over and over.Thiocyanide said:
Again the players behavior does NOT matter.
The top player of MvC2 ***** with Spiderman as much as he does with Storm. This does not change the fact that Spider is 2 tiers below Storm.
The top 3 players in SF2 remained top 3 when Akuma was banned and they would remain so if Old Sagat is banned. That is because they are so good that the character they are using does not matter.
That does not change the fact that Akuma is a ban worthy character.
Cease citing player behavior because it does not affect character ability. If I started ****** M2K with Sonic while he uses MK it wouldn't change the fact that Sonic has an 80:20 disadvantage vs MK. It would just mean I am that much more awesome.
player skill is not to be factored in the discussion. It should not be brought up.
A broken character is a broken character no matter who uses them.
If your region has a successful soft ban in place (The top X players aren't using him) then it no longer qualifies as evidence either way for a hard ban -- it's already succeeded in doing what the pro-ban side believes needs to be done (Broken MK's dominance of tournaments and overcentralization of the metagame).
With MK the undisputed best character in the game, if your top players aren't using him, that's a soft ban.
I'm saying that counterpicking against marth wouldn't cause you to win if you couldn't otherwise. Picking a character and stage simply hindered the marth, but it didn't force the player to not choose marth. (unlike, say, CPing FD/falco against a DK main....I hope this makes sense
Likewise, changing character and stage in brawl doesn't cause you to beat MK in brawl, but it can serve to remove some of his strengths, though it's still advantageous to use MK.
^^^All my main point is it that saying he breaks the CP ststem isn't a valid reason to ban him.
My EL reference was that he said the marth/ MK comparision isn't applicable, because worse chars were still able to punish/abuse any mistakes marth made, whereas that isn't the case for MK in brawl. I'm just saying that this comment isn't applicable to my comparison (in case people tried to bring EL's argument up, as people in a proper debate might >_>)
I hope you see my point (I still think that one can couterpick stages to help even out against MK--whether or not this is true is a matter of fact, which I can't yet comment on.)
Likewise, changing character and stage in brawl doesn't cause you to beat MK in brawl, but it can serve to remove some of his strengths, though it's still advantageous to use MK.
^^^All my main point is it that saying he breaks the CP ststem isn't a valid reason to ban him.
My EL reference was that he said the marth/ MK comparision isn't applicable, because worse chars were still able to punish/abuse any mistakes marth made, whereas that isn't the case for MK in brawl. I'm just saying that this comment isn't applicable to my comparison (in case people tried to bring EL's argument up, as people in a proper debate might >_>)
I hope you see my point (I still think that one can couterpick stages to help even out against MK--whether or not this is true is a matter of fact, which I can't yet comment on.)
BrawlLover
Smash Champion
all regions matter, it's just that north atlantic matters the most
That's not I said at all.
For the love of god read the entire post.
EDIT: @shadowlink
Top players use MK because it requires less effort to win with him than their other mains. However, if said top players weren't using MK, the dominance you're pointing out likely wouldn't exist.
Evidence is there to suggest that top players win with or without him. Thus, the dominance is not a result of MK.
Honestly, it's not that hard to understand.
da K.I.D.
Smash Hero
lol, for the record i was saying this like 3 weeks ago.
hes already soft banned, if people arent using him, ive said on multiple occasion that there are certain regions that shy away from him as a whole, and that is a soft ban.
the fact of the matter is that everything that you could possibly to do him, he has an out for it. he can get out of any bad situation better than any character. hes too good, and he has a counter to any possible counter against him. theres not much to it than that
hes already soft banned, if people arent using him, ive said on multiple occasion that there are certain regions that shy away from him as a whole, and that is a soft ban.
the fact of the matter is that everything that you could possibly to do him, he has an out for it. he can get out of any bad situation better than any character. hes too good, and he has a counter to any possible counter against him. theres not much to it than that
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