The Official "Should/Will Metaknight be banned?" Thread (LISTEN TO THE SBR PODCAST!)

[Master Raven]

Thanks for posting the exact same thing that someone wrote 3 posts back now you can GTFO.

Thanks

Someone has anger issues.

 

[1048576]

He's just anti-idiot.

 

[Master Raven]

I don't think you need to lash out that much over something as trivial as Crackle's post.

 

[Sesshomuronay]

But if we ban metaknight wont we look like a bunch of scrubs? I mean he is beatable.

 

[ShadowLink84]

No we wouldn't
Just because someone is beatable doesn't mean they don't need a ban.

Akuma is beatable but he is banned.

its to the extent that MK damages the game thats important.

Though as a post made earlier, if we are truly competitive, everyone should be using MK, one stage because that is the true essence of competitive.

 

[Sesshomuronay]

I dont think we should ban him yet tho. Its too early for a ban maybe in a month or two.

 

[1048576]

Wow, what a novel argument. In 380+ pages I'd thought we'd have heard everything by now, but you've shown us enlightenment. You are truly the messiah.

Please read before posting kthx.

 

[Sesshomuronay]

well we need to repeat the same things over and over until this threads post level is over 9000.

 

[Gindler]

How bout never ban MK? good idea right?

Stupid pensacola and midwest starting so early "/

 

[aeghrur]

Can we be sure it's the character that's broken right now? I feel that it may be simply that his metagame is so far ahead of every other character's right now that makes him broken. :/ Also, the true essence of competitiveness does not apply considering that's saying we're all competitive to the extreme with out human bias. All MKs won't happen. Sure, if you want to beat him, the best chance is to use him as well, but he does have even match ups where you can win. Just because he doesn't have counter picks atm doesn't mean he is as broken as you all say. I can't believe I'm arguing against his ban considering I'm a sonic main...but do we know the cause of his "brokeness?" I don't mean, lolspeedlollaglessloldsmash, I mean is it the character or his quickly developed metagame that makes him seem broken.

 

[Tenki]

I don't mean, lolspeedlollaglessloldsmash, I mean is it the character or his quickly developed metagame that makes him seem broken.

Part of it is that, for some reason, if someone tries to bring up baiting or whatever, someone will come up with a theorycraft countermove, because obviously, people DO play perfectly at high level play.

The other part is that there's an overwhelming amount of MK's at tournaments and people don't like it.

I've watched some vids of people losing to MK's, and so far, I just see them making far more (fatal) mistakes in their games than they would normally.

I think, as long as the player aspect can still render MK beatable, he shouldn't be banned.

 

[Master Raven]

I'm surprised at the number of Sonic mains participating in this topic.

 

[LeeHarris]

Can we be sure it's the character that's broken right now? I feel that it may be simply that his metagame is so far ahead of every other character's right now that makes him broken. :/ Also, the true essence of competitiveness does not apply considering that's saying we're all competitive to the extreme with out human bias. All MKs won't happen. Sure, if you want to beat him, the best chance is to use him as well, but he does have even match ups where you can win. Just because he doesn't have counter picks atm doesn't mean he is as broken as you all say. I can't believe I'm arguing against his ban considering I'm a sonic main...but do we know the cause of his "brokeness?" I don't mean, lolspeedlollaglessloldsmash, I mean is it the character or his quickly developed metagame that makes him seem broken.

Snake, the character currently 2nd on the tier list, was way more popular than MK for quite a while. His metagame evolved very fast, but obviously it didn't make him broken. You can't blame his quickly evolving metagame or his popularity for his brokeness because Snake is a perfect example as to why popularity doesn't make a character broken. Metaknight simply has far more potential than any other character. Since he is so good in reality and on paper, he will continue to find solutions for every situation while other characters will find their weaknesses exploited more and more. That's how games are supposed to evolve. The metagame of characters evolves, and weaknesses in each character are found and used against them. MK breaks this rule because he not only has far more potential on the offensive side, but he has no weaknesses.

And yes, MK-heavy tournaments happen. You should have been at HOBO11. Almost 120 entrants and well over half of the players used MK at least as a secondary.

Attention everyone:
If you feel that MK is broken and you would like your community to test out a MK banned tournament, submit the info to your local TO and ask your friends to do the same. Most of the Southwest and a few other states are testing out banned MK tournaments so that we have data and anecdotal evidence to work with. If you would like to see this happen in your area, PM the tournament organizers or post in their threads! The squeaky wheel gets the grease!

 

[da K.I.D.]

I'm surprised at the number of Sonic mains participating in this topic.

SAME
10agreements

 

[V]

how bout we have two separate tournaments. general tournaments and meta knight tournaments? that way mk players dont have to quit, and everybody else doesnt have to deal with mk in tournament. make sense?

 

[Master Raven]

Eh, if/when MK gets banned, I think MK dittos will basically equate to Falcon dittos in the sense of being a silly pastime.

 

[Ills]

how bout we have two separate tournaments. general tournaments and meta knight tournaments? that way mk players dont have to quit, and everybody else doesnt have to deal with mk in tournament. make sense?

Not really.

If you want to have an MK-only tournament, then go ahead but that's cheap.

Ditto tournaments aren't very fun.

on the other hand we could use the data and further discuss metagamin' and ****.

 

[V]

i just think its really hard to make an actual character non playable. but, im really sick of super cheap mk's. maybe the backroom guys can figure out a way to make something like that work

 

[Tujex]

Will MK be banned....I doubt it.

Should he be banned. Its argueable. I'm tired of all MK tourneys, since now he's even MORE popular than Snake so tourney lists look like.

-MK
-MK
-MK
-MK
-Snake
-MK
-Snake
-Lucas
-Kirby
-DK (Me)
-DDD
-Snake
-Snake
-MK

And having to fight 8 MK's and 6 Snake's is not fun at all. Banning him would allow for more diverse tournaments since like 80% of the tourney community use the darn thing, and because he's so hard to beat with anyone else....the other 20% or slowly being absorbed in hopes of winning.

 

[VulgarHandGestures]

I think, as long as the player aspect can still render MK beatable, he shouldn't be banned.

it's unwise to take that stance. i've seen akumas beaten, and i've beaten characters with infinite health (in soul calibur 2, that is).

player skill, from either player, should matter very little in a discussion like this. in my opinion, of course.

 

[V]

what about giving a handicap to ppl fighting a mk in a tourney? im not sure how the handicap works in brawl, but i though i'd throw that out there

 

[Tommy_G]

Snake, the character currently 2nd on the tier list, was way more popular than MK for quite a while. His metagame evolved very fast, but obviously it didn't make him broken. You can't blame his quickly evolving metagame or his popularity for his brokeness because Snake is a perfect example as to why popularity doesn't make a character broken. Metaknight simply has far more potential than any other character. Since he is so good in reality and on paper, he will continue to find solutions for every situation while other characters will find their weaknesses exploited more and more. That's how games are supposed to evolve. The metagame of characters evolves, and weaknesses in each character are found and used against them. MK breaks this rule because he not only has far more potential on the offensive side, but he has no weaknesses.

And yes, MK-heavy tournaments happen. You should have been at HOBO11. Almost 120 entrants and well over half of the players used MK at least as a secondary.

Attention everyone:
If you feel that MK is broken and you would like your community to test out a MK banned tournament, submit the info to your local TO and ask your friends to do the same. Most of the Southwest and a few other states are testing out banned MK tournaments so that we have data and anecdotal evidence to work with. If you would like to see this happen in your area, PM the tournament organizers or post in their threads! The squeaky wheel gets the grease!

ROFL! Snake is broken as hell, so is GaW, Dedede, and Falco. Once MK is banned, then Dedede's CG will be in the spotlight. After Dedede is banned, then everyone is going to ***** about how over powered Snake is(more than they already do.) After than is either GaW or Falco.

Metaknight should not be banned because a few bad people don't know how to play against MK. Remember this is a game, and just like in Melee, you do have the option to choose that character against them and beat them by being better than them. Its just like Melee (this god-like game...that was sarcasm, Melee's a horrible game)where people only play with Fox, Falco, Marth, Sheik, or Peach. MK, Snake, Falco, Dedede, and GaW are going to be the new tourney characters, with MK being wh0red out like Fox was.

 

[CR4SH]

Not really.

If you want to have an MK-only tournament, then go ahead but that's cheap.

Ditto tournaments aren't very fun.

on the other hand we could use the data and further discuss metagamin' and ****.

Correct.

The more characters you can reasonably play, the more fun a tournament becomes.

 

[Natch]

Will MK be banned....I doubt it.

Should he be banned. Its argueable. I'm tired of all MK tourneys, since now he's even MORE popular than Snake so tourney lists look like.

-MK
-MK
-MK
-MK
-Snake
-MK
-Snake
-Lucas
-Kirby
-DK (Me)
-DDD
-Snake
-Snake
-MK

And having to fight 8 MK's and 6 Snake's is not fun at all. Banning him would allow for more diverse tournaments since like 80% of the tourney community use the darn thing, and because he's so hard to beat with anyone else....the other 20% or slowly being absorbed in hopes of winning.

Tujex...the ****? Didn't know you posted here man.

 

[choknater]

Will MK be banned....I doubt it.

Should he be banned. Its argueable. I'm tired of all MK tourneys, since now he's even MORE popular than Snake so tourney lists look like.

-MK
-MK
-MK
-MK
-MK
-MK
-MK
-MK
-MK
-MK
-MK
-MK
-MK
-MK

if you're gonna make something up that exaggerates MK tourny results, at least make it funny

 

[Darth JoBak]

ROFL! Snake is broken as hell, so is GaW, Dedede, and Falco. Once MK is banned, then Dedede's CG will be in the spotlight. After Dedede is banned, then everyone is going to ***** about how over powered Snake is(more than they already do.) After than is either GaW or Falco.

Metaknight should not be banned because a few bad people don't know how to play against MK. Remember this is a game, and just like in Melee, you do have the option to choose that character against them and beat them by being better than them. Its just like Melee (this god-like game...that was sarcasm, Melee's a horrible game)where people only play with Fox, Falco, Marth, Sheik, or Peach. MK, Snake, Falco, Dedede, and GaW are going to be the new tourney characters, with MK being wh0red out like Fox was.

this is the "fallacy of the slippery slope" aka you are wrong

you are wrong and here is why:
snake has bad matchups, you'd be surprised how easy it is to gimp snake with ROB
DDD has bad matchups, he has several lopsided in his favor but off the top of my head pikachu can cg and give DDD fits, mr g&w does well here too
mr G&W has a handful of counters and tough matchups, olimar and toon for ex. (marth too?)
falco has several even matchups and a few counters
ROB has many slight advantages but is still countered often
ETC

reread what panda posted, he elaborated on this much better than I.
MK is being considered for the ban not because he is overpowered(game programming element) rather because he has no bad matchups(human usage element)

did you really want a response because on these boards calling melee a horrible game just discredits you from any reasonable discussion

 

[Rocann]

MK, Snake, Falco, Dedede, and GaW are going to be the new tourney characters, with MK being wh0red out like Fox was.

No. The new tourney characters are going to be MK, MK, MK, MK, and MK. And Snake, Falco, Dedede, and GaW is way better than all MK because it actually gives the other characters in the game a chance. The tournaments will be more enjoyable, more people will come, more money will be in the pot. It should not even be in anyone's head to switch to meta knight because he is CLEARLY the best character in the game WITHOUT the amount of disadvantages necessary to balance that out. Why play anyone else? After my next tourney as Oli, Toon, Sheik, and Samus I'm switching to MK and staying that way.

 

[da K.I.D.]

theres no reason not too, other than you dont like the character, and that wont get you very far

 

[LeeHarris]

ROFL! Snake is broken as hell, so is GaW, Dedede, and Falco. Once MK is banned, then Dedede's CG will be in the spotlight. After Dedede is banned, then everyone is going to ***** about how over powered Snake is(more than they already do.) After than is either GaW or Falco.

Metaknight should not be banned because a few bad people don't know how to play against MK. Remember this is a game, and just like in Melee, you do have the option to choose that character against them and beat them by being better than them. Its just like Melee (this god-like game...that was sarcasm, Melee's a horrible game)where people only play with Fox, Falco, Marth, Sheik, or Peach. MK, Snake, Falco, Dedede, and GaW are going to be the new tourney characters, with MK being wh0red out like Fox was.

Snake is broken as hell? Your state must not have any good ROBs, MKs, Falcos, or D3s. The rest of your predictions will not come true and I'd bet money on it.

You're right, when I beat Sethlon's Falco with my 2 week old MK, it must be because he's bad and doesn't know the matchup. Oh wait, our state has by far the most MKs and we have the most experience against MK. He's also an amazing player. I guess that destroys your theory.

 

[Master Raven]

MK is being considered for the ban not because he is overpowered(game programming element) rather because he has no bad matchups(human usage element)

Shouldn't we ban him for being overpowered moreso than lacking disadvantageous matchups? It's already been brought up before but characters like Yun and Old Sagat have gotten away with basically having no bad matchups (Yun's only neutral is Ken and last time I checked I believe it was 55:45 for Yun. Correct me if I'm mistaken).

 

[LeeHarris]

Shouldn't we ban him for being overpowered moreso than lacking disadvantageous matchups? It's already been brought up before but characters like Yun and Old Sagat have gotten away with basically having no bad matchups (Yun's only neutral is Ken and last time I checked I believe it was 55:45 for Yun. Correct me if I'm mistaken).

You can't compare even matchups in a game like 3S to Brawl. In 3S, you can punish mistakes far more. You have one life bar for two rounds per game. That's it. You can pull off an amazing combo from one hit confirm. In Brawl, because there is no hit stun and infinite air dodges, you cannot punish mistakes the same way. It is much more an exchange of hits. When a character has a massive statistical advantage against the entire cast, he will dominate the entire game.

 

[Master Raven]

I know gameplay mechanics make a difference, but I was going by matchups alone, since most people just seem to look at the matchup numbers and don't take into account of the mechanics as well, in which case if people did, then I could understand their point better.

 

[LeeHarris]

I know gameplay mechanics make a difference, but I was going by matchups alone, since most people just seem to look at the matchup numbers and don't take into account of the mechanics.

I understand, but a 60-40 matchup in 3S is a lot less of a problem than it is in Brawl because of how crucial each hit is and the game mechanics involved.

I'd also like to address another point of "fairness" that M2K brought up in the SBR. This is a quote from my post

So you think it would be totally unfair for us to ban a character you spent so much time on?

Well, let's evaluate "fair."

M2K has won several thousand dollars from Brawl. He plays only MK and when people try to get him to play other characters, he refused. He spent a lot of time on MK and so it wouldn't be fair to him to remove MK.

Every non-MK player now has characters that are irrelevant in the competitive scene. Sethlon has spent just as much time (probably more) on his Falco than you have on your MK. He can't use Falco anymore because MK destroys everything he can possibly do. I beat Sethlon after using MK for a few days. It is not fair to keep MK in the game because MK wastes all those hours he spent on his character.

See my point? You can't base anything off "fairness." You have to base your ban off logical arguments, tournament results, and criteria.

 

[Tenki]

it's unwise to take that stance. i've seen akumas beaten, and i've beaten characters with infinite health (in soul calibur 2, that is).

player skill, from either player, should matter very little in a discussion like this. in my opinion, of course.

I can't say much about the Akuma example, since I didn't play SF competitively, and the SC2 example feels kinda weak because they still have a horrible weakness of uh... falling off stages.

I understand your qualms about player skill from either player not mattering in this discussion, and I'm usually against it in matchup discussions, but I'm still under the feel that MK is still just a very good character.

I don't know, give me a video of a 1v1 between a really skilled player not using MK vs another MK, preferrably grand finals of a tourney. `.`; it may or may not deter my reasons.

 

[LeeHarris]

I don't know, give me a video of a 1v1 between a really skilled player not using MK vs another MK, preferrably grand finals of a tourney. `.`; it may or may not deter my reasons.

I wish I had some tournament videos of me from HOBO11. My team 4 stocked RoyR and Stiltz (both in the top 5 in our region) in teams on our last match. I beat Sethlon. There were several other matches that I can't recall as well as these because these were the most shocking to me.

I had used MK for a total of a few days before that tournament.

 

[ThaRoy]

I honestly think that more tournaments will start banning MK and it'll turn out successful. Others will do this and it'll catch on over time. I don't think there'll be an official banning for a long time, if ever, but just more support.

I want it to happen, but the SBR won't unless it's without a doubt. However, tournaments are a different story.

 

[Justblaze647]

I wish I had some tournament videos of me from HOBO11. My team 4 stocked RoyR and Stiltz (both in the top 5 in our region) in teams on our last match. I beat Sethlon. There were several other matches that I can't recall as well as these because these were the most shocking to me.

I had used MK for a total of a few days before that tournament????!!!?!?!?!.

This is all the reason i need to ban a character...

 

[salaboB]

You can't compare even matchups in a game like 3S to Brawl. In 3S, you can punish mistakes far more. You have one life bar for two rounds per game. That's it. You can pull off an amazing combo from one hit confirm. In Brawl, because there is no hit stun and infinite air dodges, you cannot punish mistakes the same way. It is much more an exchange of hits. When a character has a massive statistical advantage against the entire cast, he will dominate the entire game.

This is just asking the question of whether the matchups are being calculated accurately or not. If they are, then a 60:40 in Brawl will result in the same number of matches won as for a 60:40 in 3S.

Given the number of victories MKs get versus their opponents though, I'm far from convinced that the matchups listed as 60:40 are actually that much in favor of his victims.

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

I don't know, give me a video of a 1v1 between a really skilled player not using MK vs another MK, preferrably grand finals of a tourney. `.`; it may or may not deter my reasons.

Losers final Azen vs Lee Martin:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pay4vxdISi8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gNwuFkLuvak
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7mUthU_qpQY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kPsFcG12VDo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qtBPV2li8G4

Not grand finals but its losers so that should hold just as much ground. don't know what I'm trying to deter but it's what you asked for.

 

[Tommy_G]

Snake is broken as hell? Your state must not have any good ROBs, MKs, Falcos, or D3s. The rest of your predictions will not come true and I'd bet money on it.

You're right, when I beat Sethlon's Falco with my 2 week old MK, it must be because he's bad and doesn't know the matchup. Oh wait, our state has by far the most MKs and we have the most experience against MK. He's also an amazing player. I guess that destroys your theory.

Compared to a lot of the other characters MK, Snake, Falco, Dedede, and GaW are broken. I never said only Snake was broken. MK has only won 1 or 2 tournaments in FL out of at least 20. Just because your MK is 2 weeks old doesn't mean you can't play smart, unless you're assuming that you're a complete idiot. In that case, I'd have to agree with you that MK is broken tier.

Maybe things could have helped you beat him or maybe you were just able to outsmart him at that time.

1. Playing with a gay or unknown style. Sometimes it takes after match analysis that adapting really can't be done during the pressures of a match to break really gay play styles. They're all beatable, but some are just too frustrating to figure out mid match.

2. Loss of interest. Loss of interest in a game makes people play worse. It's been said that Sethlon has been losing interest in this game.

3. Eventually beating him. Just because one person beats someone else once doesn't make them better.

MK is not good enough to be banned. Get over it.