The Official "Should/Will Metaknight be banned?" Thread (LISTEN TO THE SBR PODCAST!)

[salaboB]

MK is not good enough to be banned. Get over it.

It doesn't matter if he's "good enough" or not. It doesn't matter if you can beat someone who is using MK. It matters that he's killing competitive Brawl.

At some point, being "too good" has to be enough whether you feel it's "good enough" or not.

 

[LeeHarris]

Compared to a lot of the other characters MK, Snake, Falco, Dedede, and GaW are broken. I never said only Snake was broken. MK has only won 1 or 2 tournaments in FL out of at least 20.

There are several states that simply don't have a MK representation. They can't be used as any kind of evidence because they have somehow enacted a soft ban. I guarantee you that wouldn't fly in TX, the MW, or on the EC.

Maybe things could have helped you beat him or maybe you were just able to outsmart him...

1. Playing with a gay or unknown style. Sometimes it takes after match analysis that adapting really can't be done during the pressures of a match to break really gay play styles. They're all beatable, but some are just too frustrating to figure out mid match.

I'm not too sure just how I came up with a crazy and unique style after playing for a few days. Sethlon has played against huge amounts of MKs that have very similar styles to mine.

Also, I played far less gay than the majority of MKs. I used tornado to catch his side B and punish air dodges, but that's it. Yes, I am a smart player, but I really only play Brawl occasionally and I don't have the precision Sethlon does.

2. Loss of interest. Loss of interest in a game makes people play worse. It has been said Sethlon has been losing interest in this game.

Honestly, there's only one thing I can say to that: johns.

3. Eventually beating him. Just because one person beats someone else once doesn't make them better.

If you look at the stats, MK is consistently ****** everyone. You'll find that I have tons of evidence for MK being broken. It is your side that keeps quoting random results here and there to try and show he isn't broken.

MK is not good enough to be banned. Get over it.

I'm sorry, this isn't Dragonball Z where you can just try harder and you'll win through determination. MK is a real problem, and it seems you are ill-equipped to discuss the matter (I mean come on, you live in Florida). We won't be getting over this any time soon (even if he is banned), so you're welcome to discuss or leave.

 

[Tenki]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pay4vxdISi8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pay4vxdISi8

Thanks, AB. Okay, so I watched that one, for now.

Watch the 2:40-3:15 part of that video.

That first stock he lost was an airdodge baited then a 'traded hits' kill against Lucario's F-air.

2:50-2:56 was all DI towards MK, and an ES that got attacked before it started. Then there was prediction and an N-air that knocked Lucario out of ES.

the D-smash that hit him after 3:00 - kinda hard to tell, but it was either shieldpoked (not tilted) or hit him as he was releasing shield.

3:15 He tried to F-smash and got D-smashed by MK after MK came down from the platform. Possible better choice? Probably.

Towards the end: He got hit out of ES, and some of it was camping a 'predictable trajectory' (aiming towards the main platform), and he finally got D-aired by the edge on the last kill.

Of course, I wasn't there at the tournament, and I certainly can't speak for either of their mindsets. Could he have gotten pressured and have made alot of fatal mistakes at the end? Possibly.

Comments?

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Tenki since when do u play Wario (you seem to change your main all teh time o_0)???

btw your avatar never ceases 2 amaze me...

 

[DanGR]

everything Lee has said the last few pages

woa, some logical arguements and rebuttals. cool.

 

[Tenki]

Tenki since when do u play Wario (you seem to change your main all teh time o_0)???

I'm pretty sure I've answered this one before.
But I'll give you a hint for main #12:
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=5567853#post5567853
and read the next 5 posts.

 

[Praxis]

ROFL! Snake is broken as hell, so is GaW, Dedede, and Falco. Once MK is banned, then Dedede's CG will be in the spotlight. After Dedede is banned, then everyone is going to ***** about how over powered Snake is(more than they already do.) After than is either GaW or Falco.

Metaknight should not be banned because a few bad people don't know how to play against MK. Remember this is a game, and just like in Melee, you do have the option to choose that character against them and beat them by being better than them. Its just like Melee (this god-like game...that was sarcasm, Melee's a horrible game)where people only play with Fox, Falco, Marth, Sheik, or Peach. MK, Snake, Falco, Dedede, and GaW are going to be the new tourney characters, with MK being wh0red out like Fox was.

Drop the arrogant attitude. Unlike Snake, G&W, and every other character, MK has no counterpicks.

Sure Snake's broken, but you can pick Wario and **** him, pick Dedede and **** him, or pick MK, or pick DK, or pick Pikachu, or be better at him and take a neutral matchup like Peach. Game & Watch? Take Snake, take Marth, take Toon Link, take DK. MK? Pick...MK. There's no counterpicking options, and that makes him more unbalanced than anything in Melee.

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pay4vxdISi8

Thanks, AB. Okay, so I watched that one, for now.

Watch the 2:40-3:15 part of that video.

That first stock he lost was an airdodge baited then a 'traded hits' kill against Lucario's F-air.

2:50-2:56 was all DI towards MK, and an ES that got attacked before it started. Then there was prediction and an N-air that knocked Lucario out of ES.

the D-smash that hit him after 3:00 - kinda hard to tell, but it was either shieldpoked (not tilted) or hit him as he was releasing shield.

3:15 He tried to F-smash and got D-smashed by MK after MK came down from the platform. Possible better choice? Probably.

Towards the end: He got hit out of ES, and some of it was camping a 'predictable trajectory' (aiming towards the main platform), and he finally got D-aired by the edge on the last kill.

Of course, I wasn't there at the tournament, and I certainly can't speak for either of their mindsets. Could he have gotten pressured and have made alot of fatal mistakes at the end? Possibly.

Comments?

Well It wasn't really DI towards MK it was towards the stage but i guess it was his mistake.

Dsmash I think it was after the shield came down but the quality does suck even though its my video.

at 3:15 he tried to Usmash not Fsmash but he could have still made a better choice.

If your going to take a look at what people fighting MK should have capitalized on and list there mistakes you should do the same for MK though. Neither player is perfect and I'm pretty sure they made around the same amount of mistakes.

Also no johns.

 

[fkacyan]

Drop the arrogant attitude. Unlike Snake, G&W, and every other character, MK has no counterpicks.

Sure Snake's broken, but you can pick Wario and **** him, pick Dedede and **** him, or pick MK, or pick DK, or pick Pikachu, or be better at him and take a neutral matchup like Peach. Game & Watch? Take Snake, take Marth, take Toon Link, take DK. MK? Pick...MK. There's no counterpicking options, and that makes him more unbalanced than anything in Melee.

A snake camping well as absolutely nothing to fear from MK. Shield-holding nades prevents b moves from working, any time MK hits the shield he gets tilted, and Snake can throw nades at you if you plank.

Any questions?

 

[IShotLazer]

Yeah, Tommy G you're posts are downright ugly. His arrogance and negative attitude towards others makes me sore to my eyes.
Snake is popular but isn't broken. He has counters. Several of them. He might not even be the 2cd best in the game...
Metaknight on the other hand does not. You'd figure that people would be more informed by page 385.
All other characters in the game have viable counters. Metaknight destroys every character in the game while having no counters. Basically it's stupid to pick anyone else besides Metaknight. People who just say you need to stop being lazy and learn another character are just being downright arrogant.
Anyway I agree with Lee. We need to have a couple non-Meta tournies. If anyone has any data from Italy that might be of some help...

 

[Punishment Divine]

A snake camping well as absolutely nothing to fear from MK. Shield-holding nades prevents b moves from working, any time MK hits the shield he gets tilted, and Snake can throw nades at you if you plank.

Any questions?

Hey, nice theorybros. But shields deplete and people find ways around grenades. You could say a perfect camping ANYONE could beat any character, but input mindgames and human error and you have total different outcomes.

 

[NeoCrono]

ROFL! Snake is broken as hell, so is GaW, Dedede, and Falco. Once MK is banned, then Dedede's CG will be in the spotlight. After Dedede is banned, then everyone is going to ***** about how over powered Snake is(more than they already do.) After than is either GaW or Falco.

Metaknight should not be banned because a few bad people don't know how to play against MK. Remember this is a game, and just like in Melee, you do have the option to choose that character against them and beat them by being better than them. Its just like Melee (this god-like game...that was sarcasm, Melee's a horrible game)where people only play with Fox, Falco, Marth, Sheik, or Peach. MK, Snake, Falco, Dedede, and GaW are going to be the new tourney characters, with MK being wh0red out like Fox was.

We all know snake is broken, but he can be countered. MK has no counters except for himself, and that is a neutral match up. With the Melee comparison. Fox could be countered, and it was HARD AS HELL to be a half way decent Fox and it takes no time to be good with MK. So that argument is not really valid (plus melee is in another league of its own). Plus, you calling people bad just is not cool. It just makes you look like a jerk.

 

[IShotLazer]

A snake camping well as absolutely nothing to fear from MK. Shield-holding nades prevents b moves from working, any time MK hits the shield he gets tilted, and Snake can throw nades at you if you plank.

Any questions?

Lolwut...
Theorycraft doesn't work when you're are playing the actual game. Metaknight ***** snake.

It's nice to say all snake has to do is camp well, but the Metaknight player only has to gimp equally as well which isn't so hard especially considering Metaknight has comboability and a lot of speed to be able to get in.

Just watch recent Snake Vs. Metaknight at an objective level.

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

Yeah, Tommy G you're posts are downright ugly. His arrogance and negative attitude towards others makes me sore to my eyes.
Snake is popular but isn't broken. He has counters. Several of them. He might not even be the 2cd best in the game...
Metaknight on the other hand does not. You'd figure that people would be more informed by page 385.
All other characters in the game have viable counters. Metaknight destroys every character in the game while having no counters. Basically it's stupid to pick anyone else besides Metaknight. People who just say you need to stop being lazy and learn another character are just being downright arrogant.
Anyway I agree with Lee. We need to have a couple non-Meta tournies. If anyone has any data from Italy that might be of some help...

lol @ the irony. Italy had a pol to see if people want MK banned he isn't actually banned over there.

 

[adumbrodeus]

A snake camping well as absolutely nothing to fear from MK. Shield-holding nades prevents b moves from working, any time MK hits the shield he gets tilted, and Snake can throw nades at you if you plank.

Any questions?

Have you heard of dtilt?

Totally safe on block, outranges ftilts first strike of ftilt (second strike is NOT safe, so PLEASE SNAKE, do both strikes so I can shield and destroy you). Oh, and try nading at that range, MK will punish you while you're pulling it out. Depending on the damage and the ports, pulling out a nade at that range might be a death sentance.

Any questions?

Lolwut...
Theorycraft doesn't work when you're are playing the actual game. Metaknight ***** snake.

It's nice to say all snake has to do is camp well, but the Metaknight player only has to gimp equally as well which isn't so hard especially considering Metaknight has comboability and a lot of speed to be able to get in.

Just watch recent Snake Vs. Metaknight at an objective level.

Nah, theorycraft is fine if you have all the info, and you're considering it properly.

But if you forget about little things like Mk's dtilt... you've got problems.

 

[Master Raven]

Snake isn't really broken aside from his disjointed tilts. >_>

 

[IShotLazer]

Well that was Shiek's little problem as well in Melee...
I actually don't think he is broken XD

 

[fkacyan]

Have you heard of dtilt?

Totally safe on block, outranges ftilts first strike of ftilt (second strike is NOT safe, so PLEASE SNAKE, do both strikes so I can shield and destroy you). Oh, and try nading at that range, MK will punish you while you're pulling it out. Depending on the damage and the ports, pulling out a nade at that range might be a death sentance.

Any questions?

Spotdodge the dtilt and ftilt. Wow, that was hard.

 

[Justblaze647]

Snake isn't really broken aside from his disjointed tilts. >_>

doG damm that u-tilt straight to hail (not a typo)

 

[Rocann]

All I know is LeeHarris is my hero. Everything pro-ban says just makes way more sense and has the actual competition on the whole in mind as well as overall tournament results, whereas anti-ban seems more like it's thinking about specific matchups for MK in mind as well as individual uncommon tournament results, which isn't how we can go about arguing a ban that will affect an entire cast of characters and tournaments for years to come.

 

[Rocann]

Spotdodge the dtilt and ftilt. Wow, that was hard.

I might be interpreting this wrong, but are you saying to spotdodge MK's dtilt and punish? That's ****ing great. And once again, even if Snake is a counter to MK (and he's not), two or three sort-of-neutral matchups and clear advantages over the rest STILL overcentralizes the game.

 

[complexity1234]

Have you heard of dtilt?

snake can spot dodge, shield, or roll with nade. IN which case you still hit the nade because MK attacked. Snakes forward tilt owns MK.

It seems like florida has progressed a bit more than other states since they generally have no problem with MK's the way they say.

Snake is MK's counter. UNLESS the MK can gimp him off stage which is hard to do against a good snake. Falco gets a free %0-45 ish grab on every MK life. If he does that like 2 out of 3 lives its a full stock taken away from MK. Theres other things other characters can do. Learn to play better. PLUS, WAIT LONGER THE GAME HAS HARDLY BEEN OUT.

Stop saying because he has no Insanely bad matchups he should be banned because thats not good enough.

Other games have characters with almost no bad matchups but they weren't banned.

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

lol at people not knowing that Dtilt is safe on shield. and 08ers are looked down upon...

edit:Florida hasn't progressed more than other states since no one is saying look at this guy from florida he ***** every MK that comes his way.

Snake is not MK's counter. MK has no counters and snake is very easy to gimp especially since MK can follow him anywhere he wants.

Brawl is a lot different from other games and there are plenty of games where beatable characters have been banned. Hell every character has the ability to loose health/take damage, and die so every character ever banned is beatable.

edit2:@ under me. human error also stops people from punishing things correctly and it also hinders nade camping.

 

[fkacyan]

I might be interpreting this wrong, but are you saying to spotdodge MK's dtilt and punish? That's ****ing great.

Anybody with half a brain can do it.

Or, you could full hop nair, shorthop dair over MK... Magic, the downtilt doesn't land.

I don't know where the hell you play, but on the EC we don't have all that many MKs mostly because any half-decent Snake goes to town with the matchup.

EDIT: @above: Only if perfectly spaced, and human error will often prevent that from happening.

 

[Justblaze647]

Snake is MK's counter. UNLESS the MK can gimp him off stage which is hard to do against a good snake.

LMAO! Haven't you learned anything from this thread??!!? There's no such thing as a MK counter!

 

[Master Raven]

To be fair though, very few of our MKs in FL can even remotely compete with most of the OOS MKs.

 

[complexity1234]

Snake is MK's counter. UNLESS the MK can gimp him off stage which is hard to do against a good snake.

LMAO! Haven't you learned anything from this thread??!!? There's no such thing as a MK counter!

Just because More scrubs are banning together and saying MK counters Snake doesnt mean its true.
I never realized how many nubs are on smash boards...

 

[Tenki]

Well It wasn't really DI towards MK it was towards the stage but i guess it was his mistake.

Dsmash I think it was after the shield came down but the quality does suck even though its my video.

at 3:15 he tried to Usmash not Fsmash but he could have still made a better choice.

If your going to take a look at what people fighting MK should have capitalized on and list there mistakes you should do the same for MK though. Neither player is perfect and I'm pretty sure they made around the same amount of mistakes.

The DI towards the stage/MK was something you shouldn't do against aerial combo characters for the most part (eg, vs Lucario, or an edgeguarding Falcon). The ES getting edgeguarded - that's something that could have happened / been worse vs any other character (worse for chars with spikes).

Otherwise, the only MK-specific death he really would have gotten that game was the one where MK chased him off the stage and killed him when he tried to use an aerial. Arguably, he might have been able to get past it if he fastfell and had gotten below MK.

My main point is that people might really just tend to make more mistakes (that are usually much more fatal) when up against MK, and it contributes to some of their wins. I'll watch other vids later `.`;

But as of now, that's what I'm feeling.

 

[Ulevo]

If you look at the stats, MK is consistently ****** everyone. You'll find that I have tons of evidence for MK being broken. It is your side that keeps quoting random results here and there to try and show he isn't broken.

Meta Knight isn't "******" everyone. He's winning. He's dominating. But he is not the only one placing well, and with the exceptions of players like M2K, most Meta Knights winning tournaments are not winning those tourneys by a mile ahead.

Last time I checked, a characters dominance alone was not the requirement for a ban. Just because he's better and he's winning more does not mean he's broken. He's broken when he is the one character required to win every match you play.

 

[NeoCrono]

Snake is MK's counter. UNLESS the MK can gimp him off stage which is hard to do against a good snake.


Just because More scrubs are banning together and saying MK counters Snake doesnt mean its true.
I never realized how many nubs are on smash boards...

MK has no counters, MK has more priority then snake, MK can gimp his recovery, he is faster then snake, and has more KO potential. MK is just better then snake, I'm sorry to say this lol.

 

[Tommy_G]

Honestly, there's only one thing I can say to that: johns.

That's the only thing I think when I look at this thread.

 

[Justblaze647]

Just because More scrubs are banning together and saying MK counters Snake doesnt mean its true.
I never realized how many nubs are on smash boards...

But who do I pick up? Snake? No, MKs have learned how to beat all but the best Snakes out there.

I Win...
You Lose...
Why???

'Cuz Panda says so

 

[fkacyan]

MK has no counters, MK has more priority then snake, MK can gimp his recovery, he is faster then snake, and has more KO potential. MK is just better then snake, I'm sorry to say this lol.

He has many even matchups, MK's moves all bring him into tilt-out-of-shield range, many characters can gimp Snake's recovery with ease, Snake is a slow character, MK has much less KO potential especially on such a large character.

If Snake lives past the first two or three downsmashes you're going to have a hard time killing Snake.

 

[complexity1234]

MK has no counters, MK has more priority then snake, MK can gimp his recovery, he is faster then snake, and has more KO potential. MK is just better then snake, I'm sorry to say this lol.

priority? LOL -> snakes forward and uptilt.

Gimping recovery, thats where the snake has to evade well. Thats it... if he gets PUT into that position. Good snakes avoid it well.

more KO potential then snake? HAHHAAHAH are you playing super smash brothers brawl?

Dont forget snake is a heavy weight and MK is a feather weight. That alone helps him alot also. This **** has been said 1000 times and you nubs still dont get it.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Spotdodge the dtilt and ftilt. Wow, that was hard.

Lol!

You won't be able to hit with ftilt until the second strike if spaced properly. So... you must spotdodge then do both hits of ftilt BEFORE MK can do another dtilt.

Did I mention that dtilt is REALLY REALLY fast? I'm almost positive he can punish spotdodging against the dtilt by... dtilting again.

snake can spot dodge, shield, or block with nade. IN which case you still hit the nade because MK attacked. Snakes forward tilt owns MK.

Spot-dodging means you eat MK's second dtilt.

Shielding just means MK can freely poke your shield, it's shield pressure. It forces Snake to do something or eventually get shield-stabbed. Human reaction time is at best, 7 frames, and I'm near positive it comes out faster. So fine, keep your shield up... I'll keep attacking with it every so often, you shield will keep getting depleted, and I'll shield stab you.

MK maintains the spacing and waits for the 'nade to explode. Obviously Snake will throw it some point before, but you have shielding, and spotdodging if it's going to hit at the end of the fuse, and you can punish the item throw if not.

Or... he can attack... dtilt will not hit the grenade's hitbox if Snake is holding it.

From the there MK can punish play the same game, punishing any 'nade pulling if he so desires.

Mk outranges the first hit of ftilt, and the second hit is insanely unsafe, be more analytical about your match-ups.

It seems like florida has progressed a bit more than other states since they generally have no problem with MK's the way they say.

Unless Florida has found something really interesting out (which I doubt), they're behind, and their MKs are just spacing badly. Like what happened when Snake was top.

Snake is MK's counter. UNLESS the MK can gimp him off stage which is hard to do against a good snake. Falco gets a free %0-45 ish grab on every MK life. If he does that like 2 out of 3 lives its a full stock taken away from MK. Theres other things characters can do. Learn to play better.

Lol.

Snake has no answers to Mk's superior safe range and rushdown.

Falco's grab range sucks. Sure it keeps MK out of that range, but he spaces like he should, and it's just like the Falco v. Marth match-up. Falco should never get a grab off MK, if he could reliably, Ice Climbers would be undisputed top tier.

Stop saying because he has no Insanely bad matchups he should be banned because thats not good enough.

Other games have characters with almost no bad matchups but they weren't banned.

Stop assuming I'm calling for a Ban, I never suggested it's appriate to ban MK now.

I merely consider him a candidate when the metagame is mature enough to make such distinctions, which it is not.

 

[Justblaze647]

A Bunch of Nonsense...

"A wise man told me not to argue with fools...

cuz people from a distance can't tell who is who"

- Jay-Z

 

[complexity1234]

keep living in your dream world that MK owns snake. I could care less. I told u straight up facts.

If you said MK has more KO potential than snake says you probably have never used snake and MK yourself.

peace scrubs.

 

[NeoCrono]

He has many even matchups, MK's moves all bring him into tilt-out-of-shield range, many characters can gimp Snake's recovery with ease, Snake is a slow character, MK has much less KO potential especially on such a large character.

If Snake lives past the first two or three downsmashes you're going to have a hard time killing Snake.

true, snake is hard to kill. But would you say he is better then MK?(and you are right about snake having more KO potential) and the only thing that bothers me about your argument is "if snake can survive" well its only just one word. Its if, I think he can survive 2 at 110%+. But not three.

 

[Justblaze647]

Snake is MK's counter.

I told u straight up facts.

How is anything you've said been factual... what-so-ever?

 

[fkacyan]

true, snake is hard to kill. But would you say he is better then MK?(and you are right about snake having more KO potential) and the only thing that bothers me about your argument is "if snake can survive" well its only just one word. Its if, I think he can survive 2 at 110%+. But not three.

Move detioration.

If you've landed three dsmashes on a light character before 100% and they didn't die, it won't be killing them if they DI correctly either.

@dudewhothinksdtiltisthatfast: It's not. It has enough ending lag for snake to punish it with an ftilt.

Or, Snake could solve the entire problem by dtilting himself, which iirc outranges MK's dtilt.

EDIT: I wonder how many people arguing for MK's ban have ever done well at any major tourney, or are even active in the scene.