The Official "Should/Will Metaknight be banned?" Thread (LISTEN TO THE SBR PODCAST!)

[NeoCrono]

1) You stating Meta Knight has no counters does mean it's true. The sky is also red. See what I did there?

2) Meta Knight, in his over all move set, has more priority. This does not mean he trumps Snake in every confrontation on circumstance. The Tornado, which is the epitome of priority, loses significantly to an UTilt.

3) Meta Knight can gimp his recovery. But so can many other characters. Most good Snake players will properly DI, and recover high up, where Meta Knight cannot do this, thus avoiding this disadvantage.

4) Meta Knight has Nair, Dair, FSmash, DSmash, and Shuttle Loop for KO moves, reasonably speaking. Snake has Standard A, both hits of his FTilt, UTilt, Mines, Genades, USmash, Uair, Bair, Grenades... No. Meta Knight does not have more KO potential.'

5) Don't apologize for something you're obviously wrong about.

To late, already apologized lol. I just have one question, who is MK counter?
edit: And to number one. I stated that MK has no counters, and so have a lot of people. Its not a fact yet(people are still working on a counter) but there has to be some truth to it if a thousands of people are saying it. But what do I know, according to some guy, I'm a scrub. A scrub that according to a lot of people that's good at this game, but a scrub non the less. I do take offense to that, but why get worked up over someones opinion. In my opinion, a great MK and a great snake is a one sided match in MK favor. But it is my opinion though, and it can only account for so much lol.

 

[Rocann]

It's just as simple as getting grabbed, now stop complaining.

also, Snake Grenade+Shield > MK's D-tilt

Sweet, now what about all the other characters? Marth, Samus maybe have a chance.

 

[Salem]

Getting grabbed can be spot dodged, good luck spot dodging the d-tilt.

And, the dtilt outranges Snake's grenade explosion and won't detonate it if he's holding it. That's already been covered.

You however forget that once the grenade explodes(?) it however clashes with MK's attack letting you free of any spammage, also a simple jump and d-air can easily fix this problem as MK still has some bit of lag time with that attack.

 

[DanGR]

How much shieldstun does his dtilt have? (frame wise) And how many frames does it take to shieldgrab? If them added together is more than 15, then that's just sick and I would laugh at all the MK users that can't win tourneys.

 

[salaboB]

You however forget that once the grenade explodes(?) it however clashes with MK's attack letting you free of any spammage, also a simple jump and d-air can easily fix this problem as MK still has some bit of lag time with that attack.

You can't jump in time, that's been explained -- you just don't clear the ground before another dtilt hits you.

Your shield stun from the grenade exploding will lock you for longer than the clash will stop MK from starting another dtilt.

 

[adumbrodeus]

It's just as simple as getting grabbed, now stop complaining.

*facepalm*

The range is almost equivilent to Marth's f-smash...

The only grabs like that have considerably more start-up.

Also, you can spot-dodge or roll-dodge a grab, then punish the post-lag, you CANNOT do that with dtilt. ESPECIALLY the ones with enough range to make what you are suggesting practical.

also, Snake Grenade+Shield > MK's D-tilt

No.

We covered this in depth. Even if that was true, he just waits out the nade. And God help Snake if he tries pulling a nade when MK is that close.

Sweet, now what about all the other characters? Marth, Samus maybe have a chance.

Except it's wrong.

Same with Marth and Samus.

You however forget that once the grenade explodes(?) it however clashes with MK's attack letting you free of any spammage, also a simple jump and d-air can easily fix this problem as MK still has some bit of lag time with that attack.

Nade shieldstun>clash stun.

Your 6 frames of jump start-up plus a frame of shield-drop sort of make that impossible.

 

[Salem]

You can't jump in time, that's been explained -- you just don't clear the ground before another dtilt hits you.

Your shield stun from the grenade exploding will lock you for longer than the clash will stop MK from starting another dtilt.

If that doesn't work we could always just spam pivot grabs, that outranges everything.
LOL!

and besides...CoughIhatethatmoveCough... a better counter for MK's d-tilt would be the old dash attack cancel combo, as snake pretty much dodges the d-tilt on the ground with his very short jump and after if MK were to move fast enough to block snake's attack(someway) he still get's to use his extra attack which is up smash.

I saw it happen... looked incredibly wierd...

 

[Ryan-K]

If that doesn't work we could always just spam pivot grabs, that outranges everything.
LOL!

and besides...CoughIhatethatmoveCough... a better counter for MK's d-tilt would be the old dash attack cancel combo, as snake pretty much dodges the d-tilt on the ground with his very short jump and after if MK were to move fast enough to block snake's attack(someway) he still get's to use his extra attack which is up smash.

I saw it happen... looked incredibly wierd...

mk's dtilt is fast enough for him to react to anything.

15 frames is extremely quick, faster than anything snake can do from the air while hes falling from his sh

dtilt is disjointed so it could hit snake out of dash unless you cant space at all, worst case scenario it clashes and the 3 frame startup of dtilt lets you get another one out quicker than snakes ftilt

 

[hotgarbage]

Hm, now I'm curious; I think I'll get more info on his dtilt (shield hitstun etc.) when I can.

 

[adumbrodeus]

If that doesn't work we could always just spam pivot grabs, that outranges everything.
LOL!

True, but MK has to comit to an approach, it's too punishable otherwise. And you don't have a way to force MK to approach.

Hence it's 55-45 mk, not 60-40 yoshi.

and besides...CoughIhatethatmoveCough... a better counter for MK's d-tilt would be the old dash attack cancel combo, as snake pretty much dodges the d-tilt on the ground with his very short jump and after if MK were to move fast enough to block snake's attack(someway) he still get's to use his extra attack which is up smash.

I saw it happen... looked incredibly wierd...

Has to be one prediction and timed perfectly. It's got too much start-up otherwise.

 

[Dark Sonic]

thanks for proving my point

Glad I could help

If that doesn't work we could always just spam pivot grabs, that outranges everything.
LOL!

Snake's pivot grab doesn't have much range (not as much as MK's d-tilt anyway)

edit: Were you talking about Yoshi?

and besides...CoughIhatethatmoveCough... a better counter for MK's d-tilt would be the old dash attack cancel combo, as snake pretty much dodges the d-tilt on the ground with his very short jump and after if MK were to move fast enough to block snake's attack(someway) he still get's to use his extra attack which is up smash.

I saw it happen... looked incredibly wierd...

The MK should not be d-tilting if he's not in range for it to hit. If you're far enough away to dash attack, the MK player needs to move closer before initiating the d-tilt trap.

The Snake will be frantically trying to keep MK out of this position, but MK has more than enough ways to get into it with little opposition (seriously, just walk foward after Snake f-tilts and you're pretty much where you need to be)

 

[Salem]

wow are you like illiterate or something

mk's dtilt is fast enough for him to react to anything.

15 frames is extremely quick, faster than anything snake can do from the air while hes falling from his sh

dtilt is disjointed so it could hit snake out of dash unless you cant space at all, worst case scenario it clashes and the 3 frame startup of dtilt lets you get another one out quicker than snakes ftilt

But... Snake auto perfect shield's (Simply by an L/R holding) it instead of f-tilt (Just checked what happens if that is attempted) after, a backward roll is all you can really do. (Though it could be possible to do something else)
Then we are back at square one.

 

[Dark Sonic]

^^All the Snake can do is roll. MK's d-tilt is still faster than all of Snake's attacks (except f-tilt, which it would outrange). Then MK just chases you and resets the d-tilt trap.

It's extremely difficult to escape when done correctly, even if you perfect shield the d-tilt.

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

If that doesn't work we could always just spam pivot grabs, that outranges everything.
LOL!

and besides...CoughIhatethatmoveCough... a better counter for MK's d-tilt would be the old dash attack cancel combo, as snake pretty much dodges the d-tilt on the ground with his very short jump and after if MK were to move fast enough to block snake's attack(someway) he still get's to use his extra attack which is up smash.

I saw it happen... looked incredibly wierd...

You heard it here first folks Snakes Pivot grab out ranges Pit's arrow.

Do you seriously not know what safe upon shield means?

 

[Salem]

^^All the Snake can do is roll. MK's d-tilt is still faster than all of Snake's attacks (except f-tilt, which it would outrange). Then MK just chases you and resets the d-tilt trap.

It's extremely difficult to escape when done correctly, even if you perfect shield the d-tilt.

Well uh... wait when I figure out that part too! ...I hardly play the game anyway...

darn cheap MK, I still however never touch the ground when MK attempt's that move.
but whatever... I shall escape for now!

Salem Escapes the battle!

YOU WON!

 

[DRaGZ]

Man, that was embarrassing.

 

[VulgarHandGestures]

i agree with dragz.

 

[Kookie]

Some people's kids . . .

 

[NeoCrono]

Some people's kids . . .

Lol, that hurts. But its true

 

[aeghrur]

Let's settle another topic before we get back on the same old circle of banning MK going no where okay?

Gheb is sexy. Who agrees?

 

[da K.I.D.]

is it just me or does it seem like they took every character in the game, figured out 1 move that would **** that character, and than just gave it to meta knight?

 

[wangston]

This topic has gone on for ever. Ban him. Don't ban him. I don't care ban everyone.

 

[Ulevo]

To late, already apologized lol. I just have one question, who is MK counter?
edit: And to number one. I stated that MK has no counters, and so have a lot of people. Its not a fact yet(people are still working on a counter) but there has to be some truth to it if a thousands of people are saying it. But what do I know, according to some guy, I'm a scrub. A scrub that according to a lot of people that's good at this game, but a scrub non the less. I do take offense to that, but why get worked up over someones opinion. In my opinion, a great MK and a great snake is a one sided match in MK favor. But it is my opinion though, and it can only account for so much lol.

No one is currently a Meta Knight counter, and probably there will never be one. That is because the best advantage any character could muster against Meta Knight is a 6:4, and that is not defined as a counter. 7:3 is. I was mostly insinuating that you believe Meta Knight has no disadvantages from any other character, which I believe to be false. Using "counter" was a little too generalized.

Anyway. We're all entitled to our opinion. It's when we voice our opinions in ways that do not make sense that we get a slap on our wrist for it. That's really all I was doing.

 

[ftl]

Wait, so this has become a Snake vs MK matchup discussion now?

Good luck with that.

 

[Kookie]

Lol, that hurts. But its true

Aye, it does. But it seems like it gets worse and worse as this thread goes on.

Gheb is sexy. Who agrees?

I do. Times 10.

You'd better put that in your sig, Gheb.

Or I will find you.

You know what, add that to it too.

 

[Dark Sonic]

^^Name one character that MK has a disadvantage against.

 

[Redemption]

Did I miss something? Why are you guys talking about snake? Well, I'll just throw in my input on metaknight. Banhammer.

Taken from OP: "But lets assume there is no MK anymore, and Snake is the second best. Mario has a pretty tough matchup against Snake, so I have to pick up a secondary to beat him. Who do I pick up? Well, I have my choice from DDD, ROB, Falco, Pikachu, etc. There are quite a few characters I can choose from that do well, or even have an advantage against him (those characters above are actually hard counters). But each of those counterpick characters have their own inherent problems, bad matchups, and what not, so I can't really rely on them whenever I feel pressured against a character that goes even or has an advantage against them. In the end, I continue with Mario as my main and I use my second for Mario's difficult matchups but not much else. You know, what a second is supposed to be for."

This paragraph alone describes what the word overpowered means, and removes any fun in a video game. we have over 30 characters available in brawl, yet tournaments come down to at least hald of the entrants using metaknights, while the others try to use their best, only to be short handed.

And I completely agree that his existence ruins the metagame of the rest of the cast. Heck, us olimar mainers seem to lose people quite frequently to metaknights. Eventually, even the best people for each character will give up and just switch to be able to still compete among the flood of metas in tournaments. My last tournament had 5 metas in a pool of 8. That means 5 of my 7 matches were against the same character, all doing the same thing (spamnado, shuttle) If both players are of equal skill, metaknight will win against pretty much the entire cast. And that my fellow gamers, is fail.

 

[Rocann]

When an argument over whether or not to ban a character goes 400 pages in 2 weeks and goes from "he's beatable," which isn't a good place to start in the first place, to "one character can beat him" to 10 pages on how ONE character MIGHT be able to beat him, it's pretty obvious what has to happen.

 

[AlphaZealot]

6:4 = soft counter
7:3 or worse = hard counter
Anything in the range of 4:6 to 6:4 will be a match mostly determined by the skill of the player. I don't know why this is overlooked so much.

What I find funny about this whole thing is that Snake could have even BETTER placements then MK, but people would not want him banned because in theory Snake has a few counters. MK could have significantly worse placements, but people want the ban hammer because the line "no counters or worse than even match ups" gets perpetuated so often that its just assumed it translates immediately into results. It doesn't-otherwise I would probably be for banning MK right now. However, the results are slow coming, and there are many examples of MK being completely beatable.

 

[falcoslayer]

I'm against, it's only 7 months in. If it gets to the point where 80% of people are playing MK he should get banned, then again, MK getting banned when 80% of people are playing him would be a feat to be added to the chronicles of SWF.

 

[falcoslayer]

Also, this is obviously a good subject, a 392 good subject, an MK good subject

 

[NeoCrono]

No one is currently a Meta Knight counter, and probably there will never be one. That is because the best advantage any character could muster against Meta Knight is a 6:4, and that is not defined as a counter. 7:3 is. I was mostly insinuating that you believe Meta Knight has no disadvantages from any other character, which I believe to be false. Using "counter" was a little too generalized.

Anyway. We're all entitled to our opinion. It's when we voice our opinions in ways that do not make sense that we get a slap on our wrist for it. That's really all I was doing.

Well your slap hurt lol, I definitely see were you and everyone else is coming from. I'll try and be more careful when I post things.

 

[salaboB]

6:4 = soft counter
7:3 or worse = hard counter
Anything in the range of 4:6 to 6:4 will be a match mostly determined by the skill of the player. I don't know why this is overlooked so much.

Well, in MK's case the 6:4's don't seem to be holding to that criteria. For instance, Falco's boards say he's a 65:35 in MK's favor, but MK boards say 60:40 (Or 55:45 even, depending on which matchup thread you check) but we have an example of a skilled Falco being unable to beat a relatively new MK -- one that shouldn't have mastered all the available options to bring down a Falco.

So I suspect the matchups are entirely wrong for MK in many cases, and we really can't rely on them as proof of him being beatable just by being slightly better than your opponent.

 

[Redemption]

"I'm against, it's only 7 months in. If it gets to the point where 80% of people are playing MK he should get banned, then again, MK getting banned when 80% of people are playing him would be a feat to be added to the chronicles of SWF."

It WILL get to that point, and the entire point of a ban is to prevent such a thing from happening. It will be too late if 80% use him, since then the community as a whole will just die. This has to be dealt with now

 

[AlphaZealot]

It WILL get to that point, and the entire point of a ban is to prevent such a thing from happening. It will be too late if 80% use him, since then the community as a whole will just die. This has to be dealt with now

If 6 months from now MK never really does more then he is currently doing, will you look back at this post and realize that predicting how a complex metagame with 35+ characters will evolve was naive?

 

[VulgarHandGestures]

whether or not he's "truly ban worthy," at this point, i feel pretty certain that mk will be removed simply because of how toxic this whole thing has been to the community.

there's no way something this divisive would be allowed to stay for the entirety of brawl's competitive cycle, forget trying to convince a majority that he is or is not ban worthy.

 

[salaboB]

If 6 months from now MK never really does more then he is currently doing, will you look back at this post and realize that predicting how a complex metagame with 35+ characters will evolve was naive?

35+ is far more than are tournament viable. Even without MK, there's simply not that many characters that are effective competitors -- and if a broken AT is developed for one that currently can't compete, they'll knock others out so this will always be true.

Did you notice that shield stab with dtilt discussion? That's an example of MK becoming even better against the rest of the cast than was previously realized, which is what I've been predicting was going to happen. He now has a way to pressure anyone he can get into dtilt range against up to an edge, then shield stab them off where he can gimp them at his leisure.

People haven't fully explored what it means to have such low lag on attacks with solid range and rapid activations, but given time MK's huge number of options are going to result in him not even having neutrals.

 

[AlphaZealot]

Chances are people will hold MK and no MK tournaments, and then we'll be able to make some accurate judgements.

And so you do believe you can predict how a complex metagame can develop?

I wonder if people in Melee ever thought the Ice Climbers would be good? They didn't not until ChuDat got third at TG6, and even after that they didn't think anyone else could replicate the results, then Wobbles started wobbling everyone and suddenly there were a number of competent Ice Climbers in the country. You are willing to write off characters just 6 months into the game. I'm not because I don't want to be that arrogant.

 

[VulgarHandGestures]

Chances are people will hold MK and no MK tournaments, and then we'll be able to make some accurate judgements.

And so you do believe you can predict how a complex metagame can develop?

I wonder if people in Melee ever thought the Ice Climbers would be good? They didn't not until ChuDat got third at TG6, and even after that they didn't think anyone else could replicate the results, then Wobbles started wobbling everyone and suddenly there were a number of competent Ice Climbers in the country. You are willing to write off characters just 6 months into the game. I'm not because I don't want to be that arrogant.

wobbling was banned, at least for the most part, and melee's ice climbers were never even half as dominant as mk is, nor as easy to play. no character in melee was.

completely incomparable.

 

[fkacyan]

"I'm against, it's only 7 months in. If it gets to the point where 80% of people are playing MK he should get banned, then again, MK getting banned when 80% of people are playing him would be a feat to be added to the chronicles of SWF."

It WILL get to that point, and the entire point of a ban is to prevent such a thing from happening. It will be too late if 80% use him, since then the community as a whole will just die. This has to be dealt with now

I have a question for you.

Do you really think that tournament results will change if we ban Meta Knight?

Really?

I'm not talking about your 16-person local tourneys, I'm talking about those that are so big they have to use pools and all the shenanigans.

I can answer it for you - It won't. Shockingly, the results page for big tournies hasn't changed much from Melee to Brawl, and those are two entirely different games. Banning MK is only a placebo, as people will almost certainly be placing the same regardless of whether or not an MK is present in the tournament.

Oh, and @ the MK/Snake discussion: The majority of people who are-frame perfect enough to dtilt trap you every time they do it will probably be beating you regardless of whether or not they're using MK.