The Official "Should/Will Metaknight be banned?" Thread (LISTEN TO THE SBR PODCAST!)

[Overswarm]

MK's d-tilt has IASA frames out the butt.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Dude...the **** is frame 4.

FRAME 4!!!!!!

And it has almost as much range as Marth's f-smash.

Are you serious with this ****?!

 

[adumbrodeus]

"A wise man told me not to argue with fools...

cuz people from a distance can't tell who is who"

- Jay-Z

How the heck do you expect anyone to know who is the fool without a debate?

keep living in your dream world that MK owns snake. I could care less. I told u straight up facts.

Your problem is you forgot other relevant facts.

Keep believing that Snake is an MK, but you're behind on the metagame by a month or so. We already learned that it was just the MK play style he countered (jumping into the ****), not MK himself.

MK has better safe range, better rushdown, is impossible to stop from getting that range, can actually gimp Snake (albiet with difficultly). What can snake do? Punish his mistakes badly, and stop his B moves.

You know what? STOP USING B MOVES!

peace scrubs.

You're misusing scrubs... it refers to people who don't play to win, not people who don't know things (aka, you).

@dudewhothinksdtiltisthatfast: It's not. It has enough ending lag for snake to punish it with an ftilt.

Only if you don't use the IASA frames.

Even if you don't, you've got more then enough time between spotdodge and the second hit of ftilt to do it again.

Or, Snake could solve the entire problem by dtilting himself, which iirc outranges MK's dtilt.

Which is safe in what universe?

Marth outranges MK's dtilt with his f-smash, should he be tossing it out to counter Mk? Obviously not, because when he does, he would get punished for it.

MK's d-tilt has IASA frames out the butt.

Dude...the **** is frame 4.

FRAME 4!!!!!!

And it has almost as much range as Marth's f-smash.

Are you serious with this ****?!

THANK YOU!

People who actually know the f***ing data.

 

[NeoCrono]

keep living in your dream world that MK owns snake. I could care less. I told u straight up facts.

If you said MK has more KO potential than snake says you probably have never used snake and MK yourself.

peace scrubs.

I have played as snake( i have a pretty decent snake myself) so I know his strengths and weaknesses. I have never played in a tournament as MK. But I live in New Jersey, so I have played my fair share of MK. And I have seen people who are really good with snakes lose to decent MK's. So I know the match up is in MK favor (I dont know exactly how much its in his favor) to you, all I can say is read up a little before you start making assumptions on how good a character is. If you have read this thread, you would know that MK has no bad match ups. But that does not mean that a snake cant beat a MK.

 

[CR4SH]

You're misusing scrubs... it refers to people who don't play to win, not people who don't know things (aka, you)

You're misusing the term scrub. "A scrub is a player who is handicapped by self-imposed rules that the game knows nothing about." A scrub just happens to also be a player that does not play to win.

 

[Blistering Speed]

This whole thread has been lolworthy. I enjoyed some posts from m2k, leeharris, adumbrodeus and Emblem Lrd, but other then that it's just been people going in circles.

 

[choknater]

"Let's fly, fly, fly, Makafushigi!" - Son Metaknight

 

[NeoCrono]

"Let's fly, fly, fly, Makafushigi!" - Son Metaknight

Lolz, that's why I love you choknater. You make me smile

 

[adumbrodeus]

You're misusing the term scrub. "A scrub is a player who is handicapped by self-imposed rules that the game knows nothing about." A scrub just happens to also be a player that does not play to win.

Playing to win = "not handicapping oneself with self-imposed rules and utilizing every potential tournament-legal advantage to it's fullest potential".

Playing to win is just short-hand for "not handicaping onself with self-imposed rules that the game knows nothing about."

A scrub does not play to win.

Source

 

[Dark Sonic]

MK's d-tilt is faster than Snake's d-tilt. MK's d-tilt outranges the first hit of Snake's f-tilt, and outspeeds the second, meaning when spaced correctly, Snake cannot punish it because his fastest moves do not reach him, and his long range moves are out sped. It's the same way that MK fight's DK, only he needs to be a little more careful with his spacing.

Also, Lee and Dojo are calling for MK's ban are they not? And Overswarm is certainly not some kind of scrub player. There are intelligent/skilled people on both sides.

edit: ****, got beat to it.

 

[NeoCrono]

This whole thread has been lolworthy. I enjoyed some posts from m2k, leeharris, adumbrodeus and Emblem Lrd, but other then that it's just been people going in circles.

I agree, Its cool to hear what the pros have to say about this MK conundrum. But the most part, people are just going back and forth with this issue.

 

[cman]

Are people really trying to argue that MK's dtilt is punishable? Really? Is it even punishable with a powershield??

 

[complexity1234]

I agree, Its cool to hear what the pros have to say about this MK conundrum. But the most part, people are just going back and forth with this issue.

It has already been said 1000 times. holy **** try reading.

LOL wow the snake forums are so biased, Snake goes at least even or has the advantage vs MK. MK can only get an advantage with a gimp, and those are hard against good people that DI and don't often get into bad situations

to the above poster, no, snake wins on corneria and norfair, meaning you always have a counterpick against mk. Snake grenade camping perfectly has the advantage if he doesn't let himself get gimped. If you DI the up B, then MK takes 6%, and you take 8%, and considering your weights it's basically the same amount. If you DI it it isn't that good unless you are going to seriously follow up a LOT, and a good snake has plenty of options to get down.

This is all a GIVEN if you actually have experience and are GOOD in this matchup.

If you have read this thread, you would know that MK has no bad match ups.

Just because More scrubs are banning together and saying MK counters Snake doesnt mean its true.

 

[choknater]

Hey guys, is DDD's ftilt punishable when spaced right?

 

[NeoCrono]

Are people really trying to argue that MK's dtilt is punishable? Really? Is it even punishable with a powershield??

I guess so lol. Power shield solves a lot of promblems
..... 100th post!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[adumbrodeus]

This whole thread has been lolworthy. I enjoyed some posts from m2k, leeharris, adumbrodeus and Emblem Lrd, but other then that it's just been people going in circles.

I agree, Its cool to hear what the pros have to say about this MK conundrum. But the most part, people are just going back and forth with this issue.

... how did I get on the "pro" list?

Last I checked, I'm nowhere near the top of the metagame in skill.

Are people really trying to argue that MK's dtilt is punishable? Really? Is it even punishable with a powershield??

Yes, tis a sad state of affairs really.

Next they'll be trying to argue the same for Marth.

 

[hotgarbage]

Spotdodge the dtilt and ftilt. Wow, that was hard.

eh? That's not going to come close to working.

For one thing mk's dtilt hits on frame 3, so it's impossible to react to; you'll have to predict it. But lets say you do predict the dtilt, lets look at the frames:

MK's dtilt:
hits on frame 3
hitbox out 3-7 (estimated, could be longer)
15 total frames

Snake's spotdodge:
invincible 2-20
25 total frames

Snake's ftilt
1st hit on frame 4
2nd hit on frame 16

Range comparison:
dtilt > ftilt 1st hit
dtilt < ftilt 2nd hit


Snake can't win in this situation. Let's look at this frame by frame, and make it the best possible situation for snake while we're at it:

frame           snake frames                      mk frames
1                1 snake sd begins 
2                2 invic frames begin
3                3
4                4
5                5
6                6
7                7
8                8
9                9
10              10
11              11
12              12                                mk should notice the sd right now, but lets assume he doesn't
13              13
14              14                                  1 dtilt begins 
15              15                                  2
16              16                                  3 dtilt hitbox out
17              17                                  4
18              18                                  5
19              19                                  6
20              20                                  7 dtilt hitbox ends
21              21 invinc frames over               8 
22              22                                  9
23              23                                  10
24              24                                  11
25              25 last frame of sd                 12 
26               1 snake ftilt start                13
27               2                                  14 
28               3                                  15 last frame of dtilt
29               4 1st hitbox out                   mk gets hit if he spaced like a moron.  If he spaced somewhat well he can do whatever
30               5                                  mk can do whatever 
31               6                                  mk can do whatever 
32               7                                  mk can do whatever 
33               8                                  mk can do whatever 
34               9                                  mk can do whatever 
35               10                                 mk can do whatever 
36               11                                 mk can do whatever 
37               12                                 mk can do whatever 
38               13                                 mk can do whatever 
39               14                                 mk can do whatever 
40               15                                 mk can do whatever 
41               16 2nd hitbox out                 mk gets hit if the person controlling him died

So in the best possible situation for snake, he will only hit with the ftilt if the mk spaced like a moron. Needless to say this situation will never happen. Snake has to clairvoyantly predict and spot dodge the dtilt perfectly to hit with the first hit of the ftilt. If he is one frame off mk can dodge/shield it. If he is 2 frames off mk can just dtilt again. What's going to happen in this situation is that:
- snake mispredicts the dtilt and mk punishes the spotdodge
- snake predicts the dtilt and spot dodges. If lucky he and mk are back in neutral position at the same time.... which at this range is disadvantageous for snake (all he can do is shield/spotdodge again). More likely mk will be in a neutral position before snake and snake's spot dodge lag gets punished.


So yeah, long story short: snake isn't going to be punishing dtilts by spotdodging and ftilting any time soon.

 

[Ulevo]

MK has no counters, MK has more priority then snake, MK can gimp his recovery, he is faster then snake, and has more KO potential. MK is just better then snake, I'm sorry to say this lol.

1) You stating Meta Knight has no counters does mean it's true. The sky is also red. See what I did there?

2) Meta Knight, in his over all move set, has more priority. This does not mean he trumps Snake in every confrontation on circumstance. The Tornado, which is the epitome of priority, loses significantly to an UTilt.

3) Meta Knight can gimp his recovery. But so can many other characters. Most good Snake players will properly DI, and recover high up, where Meta Knight cannot do this, thus avoiding this disadvantage.

4) Meta Knight has Nair, Dair, FSmash, DSmash, and Shuttle Loop for KO moves, reasonably speaking. Snake has Standard A, both hits of his FTilt, UTilt, Mines, Genades, USmash, Uair, Bair, Grenades... No. Meta Knight does not have more KO potential.'

5) Don't apologize for something you're obviously wrong about.

 

[AzNsAnTaGiN]

I wanted to post this a while ago, so skipped the last few pages. If it's been said already, sorry.
Emblem Lord once explained what matchup numbers represent.

(40:60) (Marth:MK) does not mean the Marth has a 40% chance of winning. It means that Marth has to work that much harder in order to win. You cannot say that that is even or even remotely even.

In other words, if you get 3 4:6 matchups in a row (and with the state of our tourney scene, you'll probably get like 12), you are NOT going to win unless you are VASTLY better than every single person you have a match against.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Hey guys, is DDD's ftilt punishable when spaced right?

I don't think so...maybe with a projectile but I doubt it

 

[fkacyan]

eh? That's not going to come close to working.

For one thing mk's dtilt hits on frame 3, so it's impossible to react to; you'll have to predict it. But lets say you do predict the dtilt, lets look at the frames:

MK's dtilt:
hits on frame 3
hitbox out 3-7 (estimated, could be longer)
15 total frames

Snake's spotdodge:
invincible 2-20
25 total frames

Snake's ftilt
1st hit on frame 4
2nd hit on frame 16

Range comparison:
dtilt > ftilt 1st hit
dtilt < ftilt 2nd hit


Snake can't win in this situation. Let's look at this frame by frame, and make it the best possible situation for snake while we're at it:

frame           snake frames                      mk frames
1                1 snake sd begins 
2                2 invic frames begin
3                3
4                4
5                5
6                6
7                7
8                8
9                9
10              10
11              11
12              12                                mk should notice the sd right now, but lets assume he doesn't
13              13
14              14                                  1 dtilt begins 
15              15                                  2
16              16                                  3 dtilt hitbox out
17              17                                  4
18              18                                  5
19              19                                  6
20              20                                  7 dtilt hitbox ends
21              21 invinc frames over               8 
22              22                                  9
23              23                                  10
24              24                                  11
25              25 last frame of sd                 12 
26               1 snake ftilt start                13
27               2                                  14 
28               3                                  15 last frame of dtilt
29               4 1st hitbox out                   mk gets hit if he spaced like a moron.  If he spaced somewhat well he can do whatever
30               5                                  mk can do whatever 
31               6                                  mk can do whatever 
32               7                                  mk can do whatever 
33               8                                  mk can do whatever 
34               9                                  mk can do whatever 
35               10                                 mk can do whatever 
36               11                                 mk can do whatever 
37               12                                 mk can do whatever 
38               13                                 mk can do whatever 
39               14                                 mk can do whatever 
40               15                                 mk can do whatever 
41               16 2nd hitbox out                 mk gets hit if the person controlling him died

So in the best possible situation for snake, he will only hit with the ftilt if the mk spaced like a moron. Needless to say this situation will never happen. Snake has to spot dodge it perfectly to hit with the first hit of the ftilt. If he is one frame off mk can dodge/shield it. If he is 2 frames off mk can just dtilt again. What's going to happen in this situation is that:
- snake mispredicts the dtilt and mk punishes the spotdodge
- snake predicts the dtilt and spot dodges. If lucky he and mk are back in neutral position at the same time.... which at this range is disadvantageous for snake (all he can do is shield/spotdodge again). If unlucky mk is in neutral position before snake and snake's spot dodge lag gets punished.


So yeah, long story short: snake isn't going to be punishing dtilts by spotdoding and ftilting any time soon.

This is assuming perfect spacing in a match against actual people, which is almost never the case.

By the way, only a moron snake is going to be standing there without a mine, c4, nade, or some other deterent to get MK away from him asap.

Nice table, though.

 

[choknater]

I don't think so...maybe with a projectile but I doubt it

Yeah, same logic. Trying to prove one move is unpunishable doesn't mean a thing.... A lot of characters have moves like that.

Let's get to some relevant arguments.

 

[hotgarbage]

This is assuming perfect spacing in a match against actual people, which is almost never the case.

By the way, only a moron snake is going to be standing there without a mine, c4, nade, or some other deterent to get MK away from him asap.

Nice table, though.

Did you even read my post? Not to mention that the range difference between mk's dtilt and the first hit of the ftilt is substantial. The mk doesn't have to space perfectly, he has to not space like an idiot. And mines etc has nothing to do with this. You said that snake can punish a dtilt with a spotdodge -> ftilt. I'm saying that's never going to happen.

 

[aeghrur]

Seriously, people are being called morons for saying Mk's dtilt is hard to punish? REALLY?
Oh, and Check the match up boards lately, I'm pretty sure MK is at a 55:45 advantage versus snake. It's been discussed, debated, and done. Let's move on mkay?

 

[salaboB]

He has many even matchups

3 doesn't count as "many" (Are there even 3 neutrals against him anymore, since G&W was demonstrated to come down to a campfest for either or a loss if he tries to be aggressive?). At least 1 of those hasn't made it past the theory that it's even, at that (Yoshi). None of them have been demonstrated enough to really show they're even -- MK keeps winning the ones that supposedly he has no significant advantage in.

That is from looking at all tournaments, not just the ones in your location. Remember, there *were* a lot of Snake players all over the place. If Snake is truly even with MK, why has he stopped showing up in many tournaments and winning against him?

 

[adumbrodeus]

This is assuming perfect spacing in a match against actual people, which is almost never the case.

Top levels of metagame...

*facepalm*

To get into better spacing, you've gotta mindgame people unless you've got better spacing tools.

Snake has no direct way to force MK to get any closer then he wants to be, and MK has plenty of ways to deter snake from getting any closer. You know, safe poking moves sort of do that.

By the way, only a moron snake is going to be standing there without a mine, c4, nade, or some other deterent to get MK away from him asap.

MK waits out the 'nade, if another is pulled, MK punishes.

No intelligent Snake will not have c4 reserved for recovery.

Mine only protects one direction, not enough coverage.

Seriously, people are being called morons for saying Mk's dtilt is hard to punish? REALLY?
Oh, and Check the match up boards lately, I'm pretty sure MK is at a 55:45 advantage versus snake. It's been discussed, debated, and done. Let's move on mkay?

Yes... because it is.

It's got enormous range, and more IASA frames then God. The move is not punishable, it's a fricking frame trap.

 

[ShadowLink84]

The above is truth.

 

[Emblem Lord]

IASA frames on MK's d-tilt starts at frame 15?!?!?!?!?!

BAN HIM!!!!!!!

OMG!!!

I have NEVER...EVEEEEEEEEEEEEER said if I wanted MK banned or not...but this is too much.

Ban this son of a ***** NOW!!!!

 

[ShadowLink84]

IASA frames on MK's d-tilt starts at frame 15?!?!?!?!?!

BAN HIM!!!!!!!

OMG!!!

I have NEVER...EVEEEEEEEEEEEEER said if I wanted MK banned or not...but this is too much.

Ban this son of a ***** NOW!!!!

O_o Wow are you serious? mainly since you're usually so calm and collected.

Yeah, same logic. Trying to prove one move is unpunishable doesn't mean a thing.... A lot of characters have moves like that.

Let's get to some relevant arguments.

Start naming them.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Yeah, same logic. Trying to prove one move is unpunishable doesn't mean a thing.... A lot of characters have moves like that.

Let's get to some relevant arguments.

Few of these moves are that spammable though

 

[ShadowLink84]

Few of these moves are that spammable though

Or with that kind of range. >_>

 

[Emblem Lord]

Dude...if MK touches your shield with this...that's it...you get hit.

As long as the MK has half a brain...the frame trap is pretty much inescapable.

At least Marth needs to really pay attention to get the most out it.

MK can just sit in his arm chair drinking cocoa as he lays waste to your shield and then your face when you try some pitiful retaliation.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Or with that kind of range. >_>

Your wrong here. Of course rane is required for a move to be that safe (like Dededes ftilt...)

 

[Tenki]

jw:
does jumping OoS negate shield stun (err, or whatever you call it if your shield gets hit).

 

[Salem]

Dude...if MK touches your shield with this...that's it...you get hit.

As long as the MK has half a brain...the frame trap is pretty much inescapable.

At least Marth needs to really pay attention to get the most out it.

MK can just sit in his arm chair drinking cocoa as he lays waste to your shield and then your face when you try some pitiful retaliation.

It's just as simple as getting grabbed, now stop complaining.

also, Snake Grenade+Shield > MK's D-tilt

 

[Dark Sonic]

Your wrong here. Of course rane is required for a move to be that safe (like Dededes ftilt...)

DDDs f-tilt is safe when blocked, but it's ending lag is long enough for the opponent to move closer, so that if DDD f-tilts again he is not safe at that distance (and thus must adjust his spacing). MK is in no such position, and he really can just spam d-tilt

jw:
does jumping OoS negate shield stun (err, or whatever you call it if your shield gets hit).

No, it does not negate shield stun. Also, jumping out of shield means that you suffer from startup lag on your jump (wasn't it something like 6 frames or so), and the d-tilt would hit you after your shield goes down, but before your jump comes out.

 

[salaboB]

It's just as simple as getting grabbed, now stop complaining.

also, Snake Grenade+Shield > MK's D-tilt

Getting grabbed can be spot dodged, good luck spot dodging the d-tilt.

And, the dtilt outranges Snake's grenade explosion and won't detonate it if he's holding it. That's already been covered.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

DDDs f-tilt is safe when blocked, but it's ending lag is long enough for the opponent to move closer, so that if DDD f-tilts again he is not safe at that distance (and thus must adjust his spacing). MK is in no such position, and he really can just spam d-tilt

thanks for proving my point

 

[aeghrur]

thanks for proving my point

I agree with your sig.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

That makes 7 ppl already ^^