The Official SBR-B Brawl Tier List v3.0

[Kuga]

I painted a picture reflecting my thoughts on tier list 3.0

http://i43.tinypic.com/2vn5jyx.png

Oh my....That made my Day,thx brown. LOL

 

[Red Arremer]

"Unnecessary uproar" is incredibly vague. Just what sort of "uproar" are we talking about, here? Looting in the streets? Mass hysteria? Cars being tipped over? Some posts on a message board forum?

I meant inside of the community. The example I gave was just how it pretty much would be. If there's a thread saying "Should we ban Meta Knight?" in the SBR, people would automatically claim that the SBR wants to ban Meta Knight.
Now, think of it, that, if there's a possibly big suggestion of change for the game which is being discussed, that the people turn it around and make it into "They WILL change". Which would cause the community to create an uproar (maybe that word is blowing this out of proportion, but don't get nitpicking on me, cause I hate nothing more than people who can't stop riding on little linguistic details if it's perfectly clear what I mean - I'm not natively English, so that's the reason why I'm wording things wrong and have failing grammar).

With respect, I think this is a transparent rationalization, and I also think you know it. These things were meant to be discussed. It's not SBRB's private secret Beta project that can't be leaked to the public, it's Super Smash Bros. Brawl, a record-selling megahit title. And while a great deal of the people that play the game are casual gamers, those casual gamers aren't likely to give a hoot what's being discussed anyway.

Then there's no point in making the SBR view-only, anyway. If you suggest that, we should open up the SBR in general and let everyone post in there because they're the public. They sure will contribute properly and they sure know just as much as the SBR-members do. Right.

If people flame or troll, they get points. That's why we have moderators. So that excuse is out anyway.

There's a difference between trolling and having a dumb opinion.

See, the problem is that you can't actually give an example of what you can't discuss in order to say WHY you can't discuss it... because, well, you can't discuss it. And I have never seen a subject of discussion that's okay for ONE group of people to know and talk about, but not ANOTHER. It makes no sense at all.

The thing is, we are strictly forbidden to leak anything. If I tell people about projects and debates going on in the SBR, I'm leaking. Even if it's nothing specific. So I took an example that went into the public, anyway. It's a bad example, but I can't give you any other thing.

Okay. I'd like you to reread that last sentence again, very carefully. Then I want you to honestly tell me that it's not elitism.

It's no elitism. It's a matter of fact that there are people that don't know much about the game, and to prevent people who're "omg tiers r 4 queers" to look into the discussions going on in the SBR, it's hidden.
The End.

Granted, many people might not have the theoretical or practical knowledge to give insightful input on the subject. But for one thing, you can't know that until the subject is brought up. You can only assume that they don't, and whether you call it elitism, protectionism, or secrecy, it's still putting blinders over people's eyes, and I will always have a personal vendetta against people that believe it's the right thing to do.

Personal vendettas are nothing you should hold at all, and they're very hindering in accepting different views. You're not better than Creationists, then. They don't accept other opinions, as well.

How about this: instead of constantly keeping it a secret, why not explain your position to them, and if the subject keeps coming up, direct the conversation back to your original explanation so you don't have to keep retreading ground? It's really not that much work, even though that seems to be the resounding impression.

Because people are dumb and forgetful. There will always be again and again the same questions over and over. This is proven by only watching the General Brawl Discussion for a week. You will come across at least 1 thread that already has been opened in the past, pretty much every day one.

I remember a great line from the book Xenocide. I don't remember the phrase verbatim but it essentially goes: "If you share the knowledge you have, then everyone is wiser. If you keep a secret, then everyone is a fool."

We aren't keeping our knowledge to ourselves. The SBR debates things, talks about points, and then the results are presented. The knowledge comes out eventually, but only after everything has been settled and all of the people who are taking part of the discussions all are more or less satisfied with the results.

Getting these conversations out in the open is important for another reason as well. When you have to take the time to explain your beliefs and observations, it also gives you cause to reexamine them, which is another important thing to do.

My beliefs and observations will not change by someone else reading them, they will change by my own research.

The way I see it right now, SBRB (with the exception of the occasional appointing of new members) has a very real possibility of stagnating under its own unquestioned premises. Even the brightest minds and most clever thinkers can have the completely wrong idea about something, yet never know about it because there isn't enough external input for perspective.

So you think the SBR members are only staying inside their small forum and never read up information on other places? They never play players who aren't in the SBR? What kind of stupid accusation is that?
The SBR members always are exposed to external input. If it's their own observations, or them reading and concluding from the persons aware of this topic... it doesn't matter. All an open SBR would cause is people going "omg, sbr said marth sucks, their so wrong lol" or something among the line.

Naturally, I don't think that just any Tom, "Rich," or Pichu is going to have a totally revolutionary new strategy for every aspect of the game; but I DO think that even the most inexperienced player could have a valid observation to make on the subjects being raised, given the right circumstances.

That doesn't change the fact that many people aren't aware of anything else but their own character. That won't help at all. If I say "I think that Marth is bad" (to stay with that example), then there's a reason for me to say so, and I don't want to explain myself all the time when I do.

Remember also that we have dedicated forums. If SBRB is discussing the potential legality of a stage, it would make sense for the Stage forum to read what they're saying and bring it up on the Stage Legality thread.

So you think SBR members don't read in the Stage forums? Again, SBR members are not limited to the SBR, they have access to all public knowledge.

But here's an even more important point; possibly the most important of all. This is an INTERNET FORUM. The type of people that would argue over something on an Internet forum (please ignore the irony), will find ANY excuse to argue. Keeping a few subjects out of the public eye doesn't make the world a more peaceful place, it just makes it more ignorant.

I'm not saying it gets more peaceful that way. I'm saying that this way, our discussions aren't disrupted and the SBR's members aren't attacked for their opinions. That's what I'm saying.

But don't you see? That happens anyway. Period. It will never STOP happening, ever. Just because you specifically weren't called to task because of your vote doesn't mean that the arguments suddenly don't exist.

Yes, but I don't want to debate every little minimal piece of my opinion and experiences just to please you. And I think I'm not the only one. Sorry, but I'm not a debating robot.

And let's take this one step further: what if they're right and you're wrong? Remember, public opinion was pretty heavily in favor of Sonic and Falcon moving up even before the second version of the tier list was released. It was also validated by tournament results (Sonic has been doing consistently well over the past 8 months or so), and yet SBRB was behind the times.

Same with Luigi. I personally made a very specific point to bring up the inconsistency between Luigi's tier placement in the first version and his - at the time - metagame and tournament results. And do you know what an SBRB member said to me? He said "You'd have to be crazy to think that Luigi isn't that good." I'm not taking this phrase out of context or misquoting him, either. He did everything but come out and say "Well, he doesn't have the metagame, matchups, or ESPECIALLY the tournament results (the defining factor of tier placement, in my opinion), but we have some vague notion that Luigi is better than the numbers are showing, so we'll give him a really high ranking."

Remember that the SBRB was until only recently consisting of several people who had no idea about Brawl, since they weren't playing it. There were many reformations in terms of users. As for your example, well, that is one of those points I mean. This SBRoomer thought that Luigi was better than you thought, and until now, the results are that he's where he is now. Well, then you were right, and they were wrong, so what?
That's exactly what I mean with "if you make a mistake, you'll be attacked". You still hold a grudge against this SBRoomer because he was wrong, and you still keep throwing that at others for an example because this SBRoomer's opinion was not completely right, respectively they weren't perfect in their knowledge (meaning the one guy now).

I don't see how this follows at all, quite frankly. No one is asking anyone to be perfect or omnipotent in order to be in SBRB. Quite to the contrary, it is an extremely rare and - believe it or not - very highly respected act on an Internet forum for someone to man up and admit that they're wrong. The problem is that people are so into chest-beating that they almost never take the time to do this. It means a lot to people when you say "This is what I thought, but I made a mistake, and I guess this was right all along." Only people don't do it because of this vague notion that they'll be looked down on for doing so.

It's not because they'd be "looked down on", it's because the SBR is meant to represent the Brawl community. So there are mainly members who are experienced and knowledgeable enough to discuss important matters such as rulesets, tier lists or other projects benefitting the competitive community. If people can see SBRoomers being not perfect or omnipotent as you name it, then they will cast doubts on the SBR, and some might even try to force these members to leave the SBR. It's not the "shame". I am willing to admit mistakes, but if I'm getting eaten alive for it, I don't really want to talk about it in the first place. I'd rather leave the discussion, or even the group, before getting supressed by the public.

I want to discuss, not to be treated like a criminal.

Could you clarify what you mean by "something wrong,"?

Having a wrong opinion or wrong information on some matter. For example, Luigi's potential as a character. Which a certain user is still bringing up and attacking with. I won't tell names, though.

While I have no doubt that you're being honest about that... playing devil's advocate for a moment... how do we know that?

Counter question: What would be my reason to lie about it?

What it comes down to is this: barring implied accusations of elitism (which might have been a little unfair on my part), the only arguments in favor of keeping discussion behind closed doors is that A: it makes things easier on SBRB, and B: you're not personally called to task for your observations. And while I can certainly understand and sympathize with your feelings, I have to say that these are pretty flimsy excuses as a whole.

Maybe for you, but you have your mindset of not ever accepting any other argument or opinion on this matter, you think only you are right and everything else is heresy, thus you will never be satisfied with any other explanation and POV than yours.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Actually, I hate to say it, but most Yoshi mains agree that DR is situational at best.

That sounds about right...although the first time Bwett did a Draconic Reverse when I played him in Baton Rouge, I screamed like a little girl and ran to the other side of the stage for a couple seconds. It's intimidating to face something you don't understand.

 

[Red Arremer]

That sounds about right...although Bwett did a Draconic Reverse when I played him in Baton Rouge, and I screamed like a little girl and ran to the other side of the stage for a couple seconds. It's intimidating to face something you don't understand.

I imagine that being extremely hilarious, just having the picture in my mind.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I imagine that being extremely hilarious, just having the picture in my mind.

Well, I guess I didn't scream like a little girl, but I did go "EEEAAAAHHHH" in a sharp tone. I was most certainly scared, and it was most certainly funny when reflecting on it.

 

[Red Arremer]

I suppose. It at least made my day. XD

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Spade;

I respect you a lot but I can't agree with you. Your whole argument is basically that you don't want people to judge the SBR-B for their opinions, which is frankly asinine. Their opinions are the first ones who should be judged; they are making decisions for the whole community under the assumption that they are intelligent and credible. If you are, then you shouldn't mind if we can see what you're doing in there (and we should be able to because censorship is lame).

 

[Red Arremer]

Spade;

I respect you a lot but I can't agree with you. Your whole argument is basically that you don't want people to judge the SBR-B for their opinions, which is frankly asinine. Their opinions are the first ones who should be judged; they are making decisions for the whole community under the assumption that they are intelligent and credible. If you are, then you shouldn't mind if we can see what you're doing in there (and we should be able to because censorship is lame).

See, that's the problem. I, personally, wouldn't mind if people who are more knowledgeable would be able to see it, what my problem is that scrubs would be able to see it. Several people could make a huge stink, because one of the members has not all information about everything in the game. It could end desastrous.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

See, that's the problem. I, personally, wouldn't mind if people who are more knowledgeable would be able to see it, what my problem is that scrubs would be able to see it. Several people could make a huge stink, because one of the members has not all information about everything in the game. It could end desastrous.

Then the answer is to put more people (anyone smart enough who wants to be) into the SBR-B.

 

[Red Arremer]

That's something I hardly can influence.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

That's something I hardly can influence.

Yeah I know, I was only kidding around anyway.

 

[Jim Morrison]

Now Inui can enter low tier tourneys D:

 

[Meese]

Captain Falcon Mutha @#!*&r

 

[C~Dog]

See, that's the problem. I, personally, wouldn't mind if people who are more knowledgeable would be able to see it, what my problem is that scrubs would be able to see it. Several people could make a huge stink, because one of the members has not all information about everything in the game. It could end desastrous.

I think letting us lowly maggots see the thought process you guys go through would helps us understand the game much better. =P

 

[Browny]

also, this is what Sonic thinks of the new tier list

 

[Jim Morrison]

also, this is what Sonic thinks of the new tier list

Lololololol you deserve a win for this.

 

[Browny]

2 wins in 2 hours... yay :D

 

[Inui]

Now Inui can enter low tier tourneys D:

I already **** at them.

http://allisbrawl.com/event.aspx?id=5016
http://allisbrawl.com/event.aspx?id=4711
http://allisbrawl.com/event.aspx?id=4712
http://allisbrawl.com/event.aspx?id=4293

 

[Nidtendofreak]

also, this is what Sonic thinks of the new tier list

That spring is cheating! Disqualified!

Back down you go!

 

[Pr0phetic]

also, this is what Sonic thinks of the new tier list

I so freakin' LOL'd at these pics. Well GJ to the Sonic mains.

 

[_Keno_]

So why exactly is sonic going up anyways?

 

[Pr0phetic]

So why exactly is sonic going up anyways?

He's been placing very well of late actually, thanks to people like Espy, Mr.3000, Wes, etc etc. And his current metagame is better then it used to be lol

 

[Hong]

*sees Pit's position*

LOL AMERICANS

pit cant get n e kilz amirite?

 

[Da-D-Mon-109]

:flame:
I am more than a little sad that Lucario's gone down on the tierlist. -.- We need to get out there and start kicking butt and taking names!
:flame:

 

[Brinzy]

I'm bad at wording things at times. This will be one of those times.


People should quit holding the SBR on some high platform that'll be chopped down the moment they give a general consensus on something. The SBR is no exception: moderators of many forums, judges, committees, every group of this nature... they are formed not to hold something above the heads of everyone else, but instead to create an environment where ignorance, idiocy, and inanity can be limited as much as possible. This is not to say that they are all sagacious and perfect, as I am sure some of us have had run-ins with these type of members where a clear poor judgment was made. However, we are still all human in the end, and the best way to grow is to recognize and accept mistakes, and by accepting mistakes, I mean not holding it over a particular person's head. It happens to everyone, and proving someone to be wrong and then treating them more negatively of it (assuming they aren't continuously doing it) is never the way to bridge a community.

I used to be a moderator at IGN, but I retired. I started posting on the Fire Emblem board back in 2003, and in 2007, I was made a moderator because the board lacked one. Now, for the first four years of my posting career there, I was treated like everyone else. I would debate with people, and barring the obvious ignorami you come across, there were people who refuted things I said effectively, and I accepted their argument. No grudges of any kind were held between us.

I get moderated, and we're discussing a tier list. Mind you, there's no "SBR" here. I posted an argument as to why I believed Rhys to be a better character than Soren, and somewhere I made an error. Something about Rhys having 17 Speed and 17 AS with Shine or something of the nature (FE players will understand). A complete mishap that I could've easily fixed had I noticed it. Users were coming at me left and right, picking apart that one detail and deeming everything else I said as horribly wrong or just ignoring it. I said "Sorry, I wasn't paying attention", and then people started to have this notion that I never paid attention to anything and that it somehow tied into my moderating skills. This went on for about a year (random examples), and eventually I got tired of it and left.

The point of this is that people can and likely will hold stupid mistakes over your head because you are viewed as an authoritative figure, and because you are viewed as such, any sign of error will bring out ignorami from the bushes to comment on your mistake, while often saying things far worse than what they're trying to call out. This WILL happen with thousands of active, registered, and posting users on a site where people can't handle their character being criticized, rules being suggested, and stages being banned.

The SBR has always presented guidelines for a lot of things, NOT a law. The tier list is based off of what the SBR believes to be appropriate, which is based off of what they know about the characters, their metagame, and their results. It is never "perfect" because everyone, even the people who made the game, does not know every single detail when it comes to every single character on every single stage It can be, however, extremely accurate for everything that we DO know about the game. Stage legality, the rules for how matches should be played (3-stock, 8 minutes, etc.), and other similar things are simply more suggestions, not laws, yet people will fight them so badly when they don't even have to follow them. This is stuff that everyone knows with the SBR being hidden from more than 99% of this site.

I am not convinced that we should open the SBR up to everyone for the possibility of hitting a major epiphany while we know what the definite negative consequences will be. This is simply my opinion.

 

[ShadowLink84]

He's been placing very well of late actually, thanks to people like Espy, Mr.3000, Wes, etc etc. And his current metagame is better then it used to be lol

As of late?
Hardly, Sonic's been rather stable in terms of placing.

 

[Pr0phetic]

:flame:
I am more than a little sad that Lucario's gone down on the tierlist. -.- We need to get out there and start kicking butt and taking names!
:flame:

I remember when I second' Lucario, he has a lot of potential, but Lee is the only one really placing with him, but Azen is making a comeback I heard...

As of late?
Hardly, Sonic's been rather stable in terms of placing.

I should be more specific, in the timeframe needed to make this list.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Then the answer is to put more people (anyone smart enough who wants to be) into the SBR-B.

No because purple names suck.
I would want my name to be a bright, bright, bright pink color.
The type that burns your eyes.

=)

Besides I am quite sure that the selection process for SBR members is satisfactory.

I should be more specific, in the timeframe needed to make this list

Not really. If you look at the previous tierlists as well as Sonic';s placement, there has hardly been any deviation.
While Sonic has seen some improvement, the average in therms of character ranking would keep him around in the 20's.
If we also look at the larger tournaments, its been rather similar as well.

 

[Browny]

I still place quite well with lucario

but no one cares about australia LOL

 

[Inui]

I get moderated, and we're discussing a tier list. Mind you, there's no "SBR" here. I posted an argument as to why I believed Rhys to be a better character than Soren, and somewhere I made an error. Something about Rhys having 17 Speed and 17 AS with Shine or something of the nature (FE players will understand). A complete mishap that I could've easily fixed had I noticed it. Users were coming at me left and right, picking apart that one detail and deeming everything else I said as horribly wrong or just ignoring it. I said "Sorry, I wasn't paying attention", and then people started to have this notion that I never paid attention to anything and that it somehow tied into my moderating skills. This went on for about a year (random examples), and eventually I got tired of it and left.

looooool wtf

Soren is way better than Rhys in both games. Soren actually will have both AS and Evd relatively soon after joining. He will utterly crush Rhys in offense because Light magic is horrendous and he'll actually double stuff. He can also use his offense more because his supports with Ike and Stefan will give him very good Evd. Rhys has earlygame healing, but that's about it. He's so limited in where he can even go due to getting doubled and starting with 0 Def.

I am not convinced that we should open the SBR up to everyone for the possibility of hitting a major epiphany while we know what the definite negative consequences will be. This is simply my opinion.

We shouldn't. For the most part, the SBR is made up of the elites with proven intelligence, skill, and debating ability, meaning we're going to come to a better conclusion than a huge public thread like this one. It's just the truth.

 

[Red Arremer]

I'm bad at wording things at times. This will be one of those times.

[Epic posting]

OMG. I love you so much. <3

 

[Brinzy]

looooool wtf

Soren is way better than Rhys in both games. Soren actually will have both AS and Evd relatively soon after joining. He will utterly crush Rhys in offense because Light magic is horrendous and he'll actually double stuff. He can also use his offense more because his supports with Ike and Stefan will give him very good Evd. Rhys has earlygame healing, but that's about it. He's so limited in where he can even go due to getting doubled and starting with 0 Def.

Goddammit, see, I did it again.

I meant Tormod. Obviously Soren > Rhys. FE9.

 

[ShadowLink84]

We shouldn't. For the most part, the SBR is made up of the elites with proven intelligence, skill, and debating ability, meaning we're going to come to a better conclusion than a huge public thread like this one. It's just the truth.

I agree with this in every way except for when your brought up skill.
In what way does skill verify the individuals arguments?
Becoming more skilled a the game doesn't change the behavior of the game, or would an argument become any more sound.

If one cannot accept an argument due to the source, then that denial of the argument is an argument against the man and is a terrible logical fallacy.
Simply because M2K is an incredibly great player, doesn't mean that what he says automatically is correct.
The same goes for a newbie, what they say isn't automatically wrong simply because they are a newbie, but because the argument is unsound.

Which is why I feel that skill can't really be used as a factor in an argument, because frankly, if someone questions my skill, it will not invalidate my argument.

Skill also could not be used as an accurate measurement of experience or used to see the type of experience.
Primarily because there are those who will never be as skilled as m2k, Isai, or Mango at melee and yet they will have many years of experience and knowledge.

Of course it can be said that it helps in giving an idea of what the individual has experienced and perhaps explain their point of view, but it wouldn't be capable of validating or invalidating their argument.

Now before anyone starts going, womg why the sudden WOT?

Well to be honest
I was bored.

@raphael: I am so gay for you cause of that post you made.

 

[<π]

I'm too slow...

 

[Nidtendofreak]

I get moderated, and we're discussing a tier list. Mind you, there's no "SBR" here. I posted an argument as to why I believed Rhys to be a better character than Soren, and somewhere I made an error. Something about Rhys having 17 Speed and 17 AS with Shine or something of the nature (FE players will understand). A complete mishap that I could've easily fixed had I noticed it. Users were coming at me left and right, picking apart that one detail and deeming everything else I said as horribly wrong or just ignoring it. I said "Sorry, I wasn't paying attention", and then people started to have this notion that I never paid attention to anything and that it somehow tied into my moderating skills. This went on for about a year (random examples), and eventually I got tired of it and left.

Word of advice: don't even look at the GameFAQs FE tier list discussions.

They have been arguing who is better, Rhys VS Mist, Mia vs Zihark, etc, with circular logic for years.

I gave up on reading it when they placed Titania as the best unit in the game.

If one cannot accept an argument due to the source, then that denial of the argument is an argument against the man and is a terrible logical fallacy.
Simply because M2K is an incredibly great player, doesn't mean that what he says automatically is correct.
The same goes for a newbie, what they say isn't automatically wrong simply because they are a newbie, but because the argument is unsound.

Which is why I feel that skill can't really be used as a factor in an argument, because frankly, if someone questions my skill, it will not invalidate my argument.

QFT.

 

[Brinzy]

I have fans!

But seriously, not to be uh... riding the SBR, but yeah, they've been doing a good job for the most part to me, and I think it'd be ruined if they showed things to everyone. Kinda defeats the purpose.

 

[saviorslegacy]

also, this is what Sonic thinks of the new tier list

Well this is a perfect example of what happens when a low character is given a lot of attention.... he gets higher on the tier list.
Eventually all of the Sonic mains will advance him enough that he will be high tier and people will start using him a lot in tournies cuz of his tier placement.

I guess you could call it a mixture of tourney placement and fanboy attention.


All and all.. good job Sonic mains. You have proven what I am trying to accomplish.

 

[Zankoku]

You forgot the part where if a character gets popular and then everyone learns how to beat him and he turns out to be not so good, then he goes back down. Tier list movement is not linear.

 

[ShadowLink84]

I have fans!

But seriously, not to be uh... riding the SBR, but yeah, they've been doing a good job for the most part to me, and I think it'd be ruined if they showed things to everyone. Kinda defeats the purpose.

I agre with this, but I do believe the SBR should allow some transparency since it seems harsh for SBR members not to say ANYTHING at all.
I wouldn't mind knowing some of their thoughts and I do think it would benefit the community somewhat.

Of course you have idiots who will speak stupidly but they are of no importance.

Well this is a perfect example of what happens when a low character is given a lot of attention.... he gets higher on the tier list.
Eventually all of the Sonic mains will advance him enough that he will be high tier and people will start using him a lot in tournies cuz of his tier placement.

No i tisn't. The character has been rather stable in placement. It has nothing to with them giving Sonic mains alot of attention It was simpy Sonic being shown to be a character deserving to be higher.
He won't ever get high tier because the tierlist is supposed to be based on character potential.

Not on the amount of people using the character.

I guess you could call it a mixture of tourney placement

FIX'D

You forgot the part where if a character gets popular and then everyone learns how to beat him and he turns out to be not so good, then he goes back down. Tier list movement is not linear.

This.
up and down.
No sideways.
SOrry bad joke =(

 

[August]

I'm happy that pikachu is finally moving up in the tier list, and diddy too, but why is wario up so high, i know he has good priority and strong attacks but doesn't like everyone in the game have a chaingrab on him?