The Official SBR-B Brawl Tier List v3.0

[Nanaki]

Thanks, you just gave me the right to insult anyone I feel is stupid and they can't get on me for it.

Also, you trying to tell me people who are not in the SBR has no right to correct and state facts to people who are in there?

I'm not trying to gang up on you, but as there have already been some responses to this comment, it's going to seem like I am.

You CAN insult anyone who is stupid, but you can get reported for it. You can report Spadefox if you want. I doubt anyone's going to actually rebuke him for what he said, since it was somewhat justified. SFP was being pretty silly. If you go about insulting people for no reason, you'll probably get reported and nobody will take you seriously.

And you can correct anyone in the SBR anytime you want. It's just not likely that you're going to do it IN the SBR, as it's still private. I think that's what KID was commenting about, anyway.

 

[Dark.Pch]

No sarcasm intended

Dark peach im rooting for you lol :D! You are just every feeling i had abbout the SBR but couldnt quite write it/say it right! Im a big fan of yours ^^!

Besides you being elitist some times, wich i totally dont see why it is wrong, i like they way you discuss o/!

Heh heh-heh

Well, since you're not allowed to see what is going on in there, if it's about something discussed in there, that's undeniably true, given the circumstances.

As for here, posters are all on an equal level, and no one has suggested it is any different than that.

I'm talking about here, where you guys speak on things such as characters. Cause from what I keep hearing and how people are acting. people who are not in the SBR can't say anything. Hence why I asked the question. So i should be hearing "OTHER PEOPLE IN THE SBR can correct them, they dont need non sbr members to correct misconceptions, since the people best suited to correct them, ARE ALREADY THERE."

Cause that to me is BS.

 

[.Marik]

Dark Peach, you talk a lot don't you? :\

 

[Zankoku]

Cause from what I keep hearing and how people are acting. people who are not in the SBR can't say anything.

Well, not in the SBR, you can't. 'Cause you don't have access.

 

[Dark.Pch]

Well, not in the SBR, you can't. 'Cause you don't have access.

I'm talking about what goes on in here. You make a topic and the tier list and leave it open for discussion. So expect opinions and even people to correct the SBR about subjects on the tier list. I don't have access in there, ok, the hell that has to do with me not having the right to DARE correct people who are in there about a topic that is here for all to discuss and speak their mind.

 

[Nanaki]

I'm talking about here, where you guys speak on things such as characters. Cause from what I keep hearing and how people are acting. people who are not in the SBR can't say anything. Hence why I asked the question. So i should be hearing "OTHER PEOPLE IN THE SBR can correct them, they dont need non sbr members to correct misconceptions, since the people best suited to correct them, ARE ALREADY THERE."

Cause that to me is BS.

But I think I (and others) have been saying that you're free to correct them as much as you want here. That doesn't mean they're going to accept what you say as the gospel, but you can say it as much as you want (and you have). You're just getting singled out because you've somewhat ignored what other people have said about the characters you're arguing against (DK and Pit), and because you've made it sound like people can't argue against YOU because you're the all-knowing authority on all things Peach.

Edit: How the F did I get first on the page again? Spadefox, lift this curse from me **** you!

 

[Ryusuta]

"OTHER PEOPLE IN THE SBR can correct them, they dont need non sbr members to correct misconceptions, since the people best suited to correct them, ARE ALREADY THERE."

Cause that to me is BS.

Actually, I agree 110% entirely and completely with this. I've been saying for awhile now that there's no good reason for SBR to be hidden and so far have heard no viable justifications for this.

However, I still don't know who I'd like to talk to about this. I just wanted to state on record that this argument HAS been made, and that I still agree wholeheartedly with you on this specific issue.

But I think I (and others) have been saying that you're free to correct them as much as you want here.

How can we correct them when we don't see what they write, except for what they pick and choose?

 

[ShadowLink84]

I want a top hat for my avatar...

 

[Nefarious B]

The SBR is like the electoral college in US government. It's supposed to be somewhat isolated, because then they (hopefully) won't have to deal with all the fanboyism slowing down the process and influencing opinions.

I do enjoy it when the SBR members come here and talk about what they do. But they shouldn't be required to. That will tend to create the above situation.

If certain SBR members are talking and are saying stupid **** about a character, it should be up to that character's reps to correct that person simple as that. So, every character needs representation, and I'm not sure if this is the case with some of the mid to lower characters.

IMO, if you want to see what's going on, get good enough to where you deserve to be there making decisions with them. Or, if you don't like their list, don't follow it. Make your own list based on your own experience and what you've learned from others. But just realize that your opinion will never have as much weight as a large group of people who have proven knowledgable of the game at the highest level.

 

[Dark.Pch]

But I think I (and others) have been saying that you're free to correct them as much as you want here. That doesn't mean they're going to accept what you say as the gospel, but you can say it as much as you want (and you have). You're just getting singled out because you've somewhat ignored what other people have said about the characters you're arguing against (DK and Pit), and because you've made it sound like people can't argue against YOU because you're the all-knowing authority on all things Peach.

Edit: How the F did I get first on the page again? Spadefox, lift this curse from me **** you!

That's all I hear. "I make it sound" it's not my fault people wanna crack jokes and be with the crowd and act like fools when I am being serious. People focus so much on getting at me and all and fail to realize the point I was making. Thus comes off as me saying *points at your post*

 

[.Marik]

That's all I hear. "I make it sound" it's not my fault people wanna crack jokes and be with the crowd and act like fools when I am being serious. People focus so much on getting at me and all and fail to realize the point I was making. Thus comes off as me saying *points at your post*

You always make it seem like people are attacking you, when really, they're not.

All they are trying to do, like yourself, is prove a point.

 

[Ryusuta]

The SBR is like the electoral college in US government. It's supposed to be somewhat isolated, because then they (hopefully) won't have to deal with all the fanboyism slowing down the process and influencing opinions.

Please say you're joking. I'd hate to think someone really would believe something this absurd.

 

[Nefarious B]

Please say you're joking. I'd hate to think someone really would believe something this absurd.

Don't just drop that line, explain yourself or you just look like an ***.

 

[Collective of Bears]

All they are trying to do, like yourself, is prove a point.

The only difference is we can do it while still being fun about it ;]

 

[aeghrur]

Don't just drop that line, explain yourself or you just look like an ***.

2things:
1. The electoral college has a crapload of issues that does not make it the best choice... in a lot of ways, lol.
2. The electoral college is basically chosen by the people now, and they (usually) vote as the people of their states direct.
This means that we should get to choose the SBR by your example.

 

[Nefarious B]

Yeah I guess I should correct myself to say that I meant the electoral college back when it was not directly elected, not today's version. I gave that example mostly because this fight about making the SBR more public kinda reminds me of the rise of populism around that period.

And I wasn't saying either the SBR or the college are good things. I'm just making a comparison, and giving the reason why they're (or were) kept less public than they could have been.

 

[Ryusuta]

Don't just drop that line, explain yourself or you just look like an ***.

You're starting off on the presumption that SBRB is automatically more qualified to make the decisions that influence tournament-level gameplay than people outside of the group. This is false, because there are many people outside of the group with equal or GREATER credentials than those in the SBRB. That's number one.

Number two, you didn't address the EXTREMELY important key point that they could be (and in many cases, HAVE been) making their decisions based on outdated information, flawed assumptions, and character bias. When you have a select group calling all of the shots with no oversight, this WILL happen, guaranteed.

Comparing this to our electoral college (which I'm not crazy about anyway, but that's another story) is faulty for just that reason: the electoral college HAS all kinds of oversights to prevent a skewing of the results. SBRB has NO such oversight.

And even assuming they DO know better than EVERYONE outside of the group, it serves NO help to the community to keep all of their conversations secret. If they have such a wonderful grasp on things, then EDUCATE people! Don't just sit there and keep everyone in the dark. Share the knowledge!

Perhaps the biggest thing, the most important thing, is the fact that they choose not to be seen because they don't want what they say criticized. In my opinion, that AUTOMATICALLY means that they SHOULD be scrutinized as closely as possible. If someone doesn't want to be called to the table for saying what they want to say, I don't think we should give it any special merit whatsoever.

For more on this subject, you can check out a post I made earlier:

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=7549635&postcount=1053

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Kirby should stay high tier because it's the only character completely immune to ZSS' Dash Attack Locks (pseudo chain grab).

Grumble... stupid ducking hitstun animation.

 

[Matador]

I didn't even know this same discussion was going on earlier in the thread...I feel like a troll

 

[Nefarious B]

I already explained why keeping the SBR private has benefits, even if I didn't say whether I agree or not, just that I understand the reasoning.

The SBR does have oversite. If people don't know what they're talking about or are washed up they are kicked out, simple as that. /hence the SBR purging before this list was voted on.

If I were in the SBR, I wouldn't want the sonic fanboys calling me out for saying I think their character is overrated. There should be reps who play sonic to call me out for that, not the sonic hordes.

Also: I CAN HAZ CAPSLOCKS 2?

 

[Nanaki]

I find it awesomely ironic that the Wolf in Sir Orion's sig has a tophat and a monocle on.

He's in the SBR!! Destroy him and his credibility!!

Edit: I honestly do not try to be the first on every page. How the hell does this happen?

 

[Ryusuta]

I already explained why keeping the SBR private has benefits, even if I didn't say whether I agree or not, just that I understand the reasoning.

Which benefits are those?

The SBR does have oversite. If people don't know what they're talking about or are washed up they are kicked out, simple as that. /hence the SBR purging before this list was voted on.

Self-moderation isn't the same as oversight. Oversight is in place because groups shouldn't be TRUSTED to moderate themselves.

If I were in the SBR, I wouldn't want the sonic fanboys calling me out for saying I think their character is overrated. There should be reps who play sonic to call me out for that, not the sonic hordes.

Umm... yeah. Except that happens anyway, so keeping conversations secret doesn't prevent this.

I could have SWORN I already said that.

Also: I CAN HAZ CAPSLOCKS 2?

You should work on coming up with an argument that wasn't run into the ground already before you worry about what words I'm emphasizing.

 

[mountain_tiger]

Can't we talk about the actual tier list rather than whether or not the SBR should be public? Please?

 

[Matador]

There was about 2 and a half pages dedicated to FE talk. I REALLY think this is closer to on-topic than that, especially since this pertains to the thread; even remotely.

 

[Nanaki]

Can't we talk about the actual tier list rather than whether or not the SBR should be public? Please?

I'll keep trying.

Why is Wolf continuing to drop? No representation? Did everyone just figure him out and now he sucks? Or is it his recovery?

As for the SBR issue, I've said all that I'm going to say on that. It's their choice to keep it private. If you want something similar, just start it. If you don't want to go by their ruleset, don't. If you don't think their tier list is accurate, say why. You'll get a response here if your argument is compelling.

This thread is the place to point out the flaws in tier placement. If you think they were wrong, say why. Odds are someone from the SBR will enlighten you as to the discussion that took place, or some reasoning. Dark.pch has been actually doing a good job of keeping that type of discussion going, despite whatever disagreements took place.

 

[Turbo Ether]

To quote Atomsk, "Wolf is the worst, good character".

 

[Ryusuta]

As for the SBR issue, I've said all that I'm going to say on that. It's their choice to keep it private.

And it's my choice to point out why their choice is foolish.

If you want something similar, just start it.

Like what? A Myspace group? A social club? A treehouse gathering?

That's like saying "If you don't think this successful corporation has been following ethical business practices, you should start your own." Just how realistic do you REALLY think you're being with that suggestion?

If you don't want to go by their ruleset, don't.

Strawman.

If you don't think their tier list is accurate, say why. You'll get a response here if your argument is compelling.

This is a strawman, too. I've also gone on record as saying that I think that this is by FAR their most accurate tier list yet. However, I was extremely vocal in presenting my arguments against the previous tier list versions. Interestingly enough, most of the predictions I made about characters came true.

This thread is the place to point out the flaws in tier placement. If you think they were wrong, say why. Odds are someone from the SBR will enlighten you as to the discussion that took place, or some reasoning. Dark.pch has been actually doing a good job of keeping that type of discussion going, despite whatever disagreements took place.

It seems counterintuitive to me to address the outward results of something while not taking time to examine how those results came into place. I feel that this discussion is EXTREMELY pertinent to the matter at hand.

 

[da K.I.D.]

Im really starting to like this guy

I do enjoy it when the SBR members come here and talk about what they do. But they shouldn't be required to. That will tend to create the above situation.

If certain SBR members are talking and are saying stupid **** about a character, it should be up to that character's reps to correct that person simple as that. So, every character needs representation, and I'm not sure if this is the case with some of the mid to lower characters.

IMO, if you want to see what's going on, get good enough to where you deserve to be there making decisions with them.

The SBR does have oversite. If people don't know what they're talking about or are washed up they are kicked out, simple as that. /hence the SBR purging before this list was voted on.

If I were in the SBR, I wouldn't want the sonic fanboys calling me out for saying I think their character is overrated. There should be reps who play sonic to call me out for that, not the sonic hordes.

Alllllll of this is toooooo true. Especially the part about sonic, as far as I can tell, the only Sonic rep in the SBR is Samuraipanda, dojo, and maybe ally and inui, none of whom actually play sonic, but just have experience the character. I personally think that I know more about sonic than any one person in the sbr, but its up to me to prove that I have the general game knowledge and expertise to be back there with them making the decisions.

I'll keep trying.

Why is Wolf continuing to drop? No representation? Did everyone just figure him out and now he sucks? Or is it his recovery?

As for the SBR issue, I've said all that I'm going to say on that. It's their choice to keep it private. If you want something similar, just start it. If you don't want to go by their ruleset, don't. If you don't think their tier list is accurate, say why. You'll get a response here if your argument is compelling.

This thread is the place to point out the flaws in tier placement. If you think they were wrong, say why. Odds are someone from the SBR will enlighten you as to the discussion that took place, or some reasoning. Dark.pch has been actually doing a good job of keeping that type of discussion going, despite whatever disagreements took place.

as for wolf, id say all of the above.

as for the sbr, please make your own ruleset, make your own tier list, but teh reason that the sbr tier list is the one that people take seriously is because even if theres 1 or 2 people that you dont like or respect, thru personal experience everyone knows that as a whole the sbr is filled with knowledgable capable minds.

 

[mountain_tiger]

I've just looked back upon the tier list, and I've noticed a number of positions that IMO aren't correct.

- Donkey Kong should be higher than 18th. Yes, he does have problems with the D3 infinite, but he has good matchups against almost every other top tier character, going almost even with MK and soft coutnering Snake. Add to that his insnae power and range, and the fact that his attacks aren't even that slow to begin with. His Bair and DSmash on their own are enough to put him higher on the list. He should be 12th/13th IMO.

- As Supermodel from Paris said, ZSS needs to be higher. The only top tier character she has big problems with is Falco, and she has lots of combos up her sleeve, and DSmash > Down B when your opponent is off-stage means instant death. Her recovery is also long and harder to edgeguard than many people think. And she has massive range on her attacks, USmash, up B and forward B in particular. She doesn't even have a big problem killing, since she has Bair, Fair, forward B and down B. Oh, and she has a pretty painful chaingrab too.

- King Dedede should be 8th IMO. Don't get me wrong, he's good, no doubt about that. His chaingra (or his throw game in general), Bair and UTilt are all pretty deadly when used right, and he has good poking tools such as Dair and FTilt too. Plus he has great survivability. The problem is that he gets countered a quite a few characters that he is unable to chaingrab, in particular Zelda, ZSS, Kirby etc. He's good, but not THAT good.

- ROB should be lower. He has so many combos on him (mostly involving footstools) that should make him lower there and then. He also doesn't have many killing moves, and those that eh does have are slow, easy to punish or easily telegraphed. He's OK, but not great.

- Zelda's position is a ****ing joke. She should be 20th AT THE VERY LEAST. She has so many killing options it's borderline ridiculous. Yes, USmash and FSmash can be DI'd out of, but that's what you have UTilt, DSmash, Fair and Bair for. She does really well against all big, bulky characters thanks to her ligthning kicks. She also has some good combos with DTilt, Din's Fire is a very useful projectile and she has a reflector. Seriously, WTF at Zelda being below Sheik. Zelda NEEDS to be higher. She was buffed a lot since Melee, but the list barely reflects this at all.

 

[Ryusuta]

- Zelda's position is a ****ing joke. She should be 20th AT THE VERY LEAST. She has so many killing options it's borderline ridiculous. Yes, USmash and FSmash can be DI'd out of, but that's what you have UTilt, DSmash, Fair and Bair for. She does really well against all big, bulky characters thanks to her ligthning kicks. She also has some good combos with DTilt, Din's Fire is a very useful projectile and she has a reflector. Seriously, WTF at Zelda being below Sheik. Zelda NEEDS to be higher. She was buffed a lot since Melee, but the list barely reflects this at all.

-Zero tournament representation.
-Terrible air speed.
-Bad ground speed.
-Smash DI.
-EXTREMELY predictable recovery.

Yes, she's better than she was on Melee. So is Bowser. But Brawl isn't Melee, and different attributes are emphasized for viable characters than they used to be.

 

[da K.I.D.]

I dont feel like going into it too much but zelda is similar to ganon,

insanely strong and can KO stupid early, but has very very few combo moves, no really reliable damage building comboes, and she can get out camped really easily.

 

[LuVr]

wow, the anger over zelda is funny.. its just a list of characters guys, if you hate it then change it... lol, its up to us to mold this list as the future comes.. thats my goal at least for my main(s)

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

As Supermodel from Paris said, ZSS needs to be higher. The only top tier character she has big problems with is Falco, and she has lots of combos up her sleeve, and DSmash > Down B when your opponent is off-stage means instant death. Her recovery is also long and harder to edgeguard than many people think. And she has massive range on her attacks, USmash, up B and forward B in particular. She doesn't even have a big problem killing, since she has Bair, Fair, forward B and down B. Oh, and she has a pretty painful chaingrab too.

Amen. Listen to that Supermodel From Paris guy. ZSS rocks.

As for Zelda, there are some characters that have a lot of really good qualities but are just ***** by poor match-up spreads. These are incidental low tier characters, and aren't really lowmid tier because they're badly designed characters. Zelda is a good example; another good example is Lucas. Luigi, Fox, Wolf, and Ness are similar. With ZSS, I feel her design actually has a lot of problems, they just don't end up mattering too much because her good qualities far outweigh her bad.

 

[Turbo Ether]

If you're gonna claim that a character is too low, don't just come in here listing strengths and matchups. That can be done for every character. Specifically tell us which characters shouldn't be above them, backed with solid reasoning.

 

[LuigiKing]

Zelda is a really bad character that only seems to be getting worse. (IMO?)

Wolf is a really good character that only seems to be getting worse. I <3 wolf... He'll go up eventually.

 

[Brinzy]

Orion, Zelda does NOT have terrible air speed. We'll just leave it at that.

Apparently everyone thinks Zelda is "horrible", so she doesn't matter anyway.

In all seriousness, if he applied, he'd probably be able to get in if he has good credentials.

Finicky note: Did he play Zelda only in Melee, or just Brawl? He can't have been playing and placing with Brawl Zelda for 'years', as the game as only been out a bit over a year.

Yeah, I figured most people would shrug it off because it's Zelda. Also, I think the main thing keeping him out is that he's in Hawaii, but that shouldn't mean anything...

Finicky part: Yes, he played Zelda in Melee and was the best even then, yet he has not been offered to join the SBR as far as I know.

Zelda is a really bad character that only seems to be getting worse. (IMO?)

She's not getting worse at all. In fact, she's getting better. It's just that everyone else is getting better much faster.

 

[Commander_Beef]

I'll keep trying.

Why is Wolf continuing to drop? No representation? Did everyone just figure him out and now he sucks? Or is it his recovery?

His sideB recovery is decent, not sucky, but he's only dropping for the same reason Donkey Kong is. Other characters have formed their metagame faster. Wolf doesn't seem to get much better and seems to only be relying on his surprisngly strong/lagless smashes, his well-known back air, and his annoying projectile. His weight is also a strong asset to keeping his game great. He doesn't suck and by this quote:

To quote Atomsk, "Wolf is the worst, good character".

This makes a lot of sense and I agree. Wolf is still a great character with incoming potential.

 

[mountain_tiger]

-EXTREMELY predictable recovery.

Olimar has an extremely predictable recovery too, and look how high up he is.

As has been suggested, here are some characters which IMO are inferior to Zelda, with reasoning:

- Sheik: The most obvious one to start with. Sheik may have better combos than Zelda, but she doesn't have that much kill power save for USmash. FSmash and DSmash can kill, but only at very high percents. Her recovery is equally predictable to Zelda's and is also shorter horizontally. She's also easier to combo and chaingrab than Zelda since she falls quickly, which is a big problem, since she's also light, like Zelda.

- Sonic: Like Sheik, Sonic doesn't really have a solid batch of kill moves. FSmash, DSmash and Bair all have problems, such as slow start-up, predictablility and lack of range. His attacks also have poor priority, which is especially problematic against ranged attacks. Sonci thrives off of mindgames and punishment, so if his opponent knows what to expect, his threats are drastically limited.

- Fox: For a start, Fox is really easy to combo and chaingrab since he's one of the fastest fallers in the game. Despite being so easy to combo, he's also very light, making him easy to kill. Like with Sheik, his recovery is just as predictable as Zelda's only shorter ranged. And also he gets ***** by at least 4 or 5 different characters, all of which are in high tier (i.e. Ice Climbers, Pikachu, Sheik, MK, ZSS to a minor extent...)

- Bowser: Half of his attacks are slower than a snail going through treacle while having glue poured onto it, thus limiting his moveset. Those that are fast enough to use can pose problems, but Bowser has his own issues to deal with. For a start, he's a sucker for all sorts of combos and chaingrabs, and his slow mobility doesn't help. His recovery is also fairly short ranged vertically, and he doesn't have many consistent ways to rack up damage well.

That's at least four characters that Zelda is superior too. Do you want me to do some more?

 

[Commander_Beef]

That's at least four characters that Zelda is superior too. Do you want me to do some more?

OOOO!! Burned...

 

[aeghrur]

Didn't SoR explain zelda already?
She can NOT approach, and has a bad projectile, thus forcing her to approach against a lot of people, which means she gets slaughtered.

- Sonic: Like Sheik, Sonic doesn't really have a solid batch of kill moves. FSmash, DSmash and Bair all have problems, such as slow start-up, predictablility and lack of range.

Yes, he has trouble killing, but you're quite wrong on some things. Bair is quite disjointed and has decent range, same as his F-smash. His d-smash also has IASA frames, just an interesting note, lol.

His attacks also have poor priority, which is especially problematic against ranged attacks.

That's just BS. His uair has AMAZING priority. If you don't believe me, I believe DJB has a thread showing just how disjointed both parts of it are. His fair has decent priority on the last hit, and his bair is disjointed and has decent priority as well. His U-smash has crazy priority along with invincy frames. His F-smash is disjointed and will clash with many things. His D-smash has poor range against transcendent priority, but on the ground, it's decent. His F-tilt has decent range, and average priority. His Utilt has bad priority up front, but above him, it is disjointed and actually has good priority. His d-tilt is decent, some range, and a good string starter, but the priority is a little lacking at times. The only thing that TRULY have bad priority are things like his spin-dashes and homing attacks, which are never used when an opponent could easily counter, and further more can easily be stopped should the opponent be able to counter. So... please don't attack my character with 9 month old myths.

Sonic doesn't have poor priority. His priority is average on some moves, poor on some, and amazing on some.

Sonic thrives off of mindgames and punishment, so if his opponent knows what to expect, his threats are drastically limited.

However, it is very hard to know what to expect due to his amazing potential for mindgames and his numerous amounts of options out of single attacks. yes, his game thrives off of mindgames and punishment, there is no doubt on that, but to be able to expect what a sonic will do is much more easily said than done.
Come on, if my sonic is charging up a spin-dash(side-B), can you expect which of my options I'm going to choose? And trust me, there are a ton, lol.

- Sheik: The most obvious one to start with. Sheik may have better combos than Zelda, but she doesn't have that much kill power save for USmash. FSmash and DSmash can kill, but only at very high percents. Her recovery is equally predictable to Zelda's and is also shorter horizontally. She's also easier to combo and chaingrab than Zelda since she falls quickly, which is a big problem, since she's also light, like Zelda.

I don't know much about shiek... but are you forgetting that she has a good projectile along with an Ftilt lock that leads into kills? She can CAMP, and then PUNISH WELL, which is a huge plus in a defensive game like Brawl. Zelda does not have such a projectile to fall back upon, and I don't know if she has such a great set-up for her kill attacks like the f-tilt.