The Official SBR-B Brawl Tier List v3.0

[Kewkky]

Sometimes he loses me.

Oxymoron wins! Thank you, English class. (by the way, 'oxymoron' isn't an insult)

 

[Zankoku]

Actually I suspect it has something to do with the redefinition of "cool" that's been occurring over the past 10 years.

Coooooooooooooool.

 

[Dark.Pch]

You have your style, I have mine. He didn't even read up on the characters he talked of, yet alone knew anything about them (especially Fox and Bowser). I would never make a comparison with characters I don't know. I would at least read up the basics, before I ever would even try to make one.

Ok then. So you can be an azz cause of that. Thanks for letting me know, my turn

VVVVVVVV

I already have no respect for you due to your absolute ignorance, and your attempt to redeem yourself in front of the thread with such comments is incredibly laughable.
Also, learn to freaking type in English. "I am not laugh" is not a freaking sentence or correct phrase, your second sentence needs a question mark, and the overall syntax of your sentences is poor at best.
It only adds to the frustration of reading your already dreadful posts.

I don't want your respect from a person like you and sure as hell don't need it from some random. There is nothing to redeem myself about. you call me a hypocrite without realizing what I was talking about. Just assuming **** and then post trying to sound funny and cool while getting on me about it. Sorry but no. The hell with your respect. don't mean **** to me idiot.

 

[Nitrix]

The thing is, even Bowser's 'fast' attacks aren't even all that fast, unlike Snake. And his recovery is just as, if not more, predictable than Zelda's is. And you can usually avoid getting grabbed by Bowser, and even if he does grab you, he can't force a ground release. The best he can get from you is a single Fair, which tbh is best kept fresh to edgeguard with.

Bowser's Flying Fortress is quite fast, and I believe his Jab is fairly fast as well. In addition, Bowser has a much better recovery than Zelda does thanks to invincibility frames (?), versatility, and it's sweetspot for the ledge.

 

[Brinzy]

Oxymoron wins! Thank you, English class. (by the way, 'oxymoron' isn't an insult)

....... What?

 

[Kewkky]

The thing is, even Bowser's 'fast' attacks aren't even all that fast, unlike Snake. And his recovery is just as, if not more, predictable than Zelda's is. And you can usually avoid getting grabbed by Bowser, and even if he does grab you, he can't force a ground release. The best he can get from you is a single Fair, which tbh is best kept fresh to edgeguard with.

Hmm... Grab>pummel>pummel>pummel>ground release>jab combo must be all in my imagination then.

 

[Zankoku]

Bowser really can't reliably force a ground release, though. It's like a 50/50 simply because his pummel is too slow to guarantee a ground release all the time.

 

[Brinzy]

With enough practice, you can help yourself to not get ground-released thanks to his pummel.

 

[Gindler]

Well if he doesn't ground release......................then he'll air release where all but like 1 or 2 character will be hit by a Fair. Sure it's never fresh, but still who'd turn down a free 12ish damage.

Idk, I use yoshi so I like grab releases.

Of course I second waio, so I hate grab releases.

 

[Kewkky]

But you CAN ground release, just not all the time, then.

At least I got that cleared up.

 

[tocador]

Well if he doesn't ground release......................then he'll air release where all but like 1 or 2 character will be hit by a Fair. Sure it's never fresh, but still who'd turn down a free 12ish damage.

Idk, I use yoshi so I like grab releases.

Of course I second waio, so I hate grab releases.

The irony of maining yoshi and second'ing wario is to love and hate chain grab/grab releases at the same time!

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Hmm... Grab>pummel>pummel>pummel>ground release>jab combo must be all in my imagination then.

There are frames in-between Bowser's pummel where you can air-release if you break out.

 

[Nanaki]

There has to be more than just Marth holding Yoshi back. Is that matchup really that bad?

I thought it was just an overall lack of options for Yoshi, mostly because of his crappy shield.

 

[mountain_tiger]

And Snake.


And Olimar.

OK, Olimar admittedly does give Zelda problems; I'll give you that one. But I'd argue against Snake being really bad. It's around 55:45 Snake's favour IMO.

There has to be more than just Marth holding Yoshi back. Is that matchup really that bad?

I thought it was just an overall lack of options for Yoshi, mostly because of his crappy shield.

Yeah, Yoshi's complete lack of ooS options is probably his biggest flaw. He has other big flaws, but that's one of his most notable ones.

 

[Brinzy]

But I'd argue against Snake being really bad. It's around 55:45 Snake's favour IMO.

No.

- outcamped hard
- outranged by stupid attacks which hurt more than all of Zelda's ground attacks
- the only character that kills Zelda with aerials before she kills him with a lightning kick, so she can't even use this in her defense
- edgeguarded hard
- completely manipulated by Snake

30:70 to 20:80 Snake's favor.

 

[Red Arremer]

But I'd argue against Snake being really bad. It's around 55:45 Snake's favour IMO.

How? He forces her to approach, which she can't, he's awfully hard to kill, he has ridiculously good KO moves, and his hand-to-hand game is way better than Zelda's. Snake shuts down Zelda in pretty much every regard.

 

[Nanaki]

How? He forces her to approach, which she can't, he's awfully hard to kill, he has ridiculously good KO moves, and his hand-to-hand game is way better than Zelda's. Snake shuts down Zelda in pretty much every regard.

Yeah, that's a pretty bad matchup. You're better off using your down-b against Snake, and even that isn't very good.

 

[mountain_tiger]

No.

- outcamped hard
- outranged by stupid attacks which hurt more than all of Zelda's ground attacks
- the only character that kills Zelda with aerials before she kills him with a lightning kick, so she can't even use this in her defense
- edgeguarded hard
- completely manipulated by Snake

30:70 to 20:80 Snake's favor.

I'm going to reply to your points in order.

- Use Din's Fire to help coutner projectile camping (it's not as bad as you say it is, seriously...)

- Again, Din's Fire and attacks like FSmash and SH Naryu's Love

- Yes, his aerials are powerful, but they're so slow...

- She can edgeguard him back. Simple.

- What do you mean by 'manipulated' exactly?

 

[Brinzy]

mountain_tiger, do you remember how you got onto me back when you first laid eyes on me because you thought I was super pessimistic about Zelda?

Do you understand yet why I'm this way when it comes to Zelda? It's because people really don't know her matchups or what really hurts her or whatever the case happens to be, and a lot of people who just noticed a -4 next to her tier position decided to try and be part of everyone else to talk about the character, when they don't know exactly what makes **** bad for her.

I'm going to reply to your points in order.

- Use Din's Fire to help coutner projectile camping (it's not as bad as you say it is, seriously...)

- Again, Din's Fire and attacks like FSmash and SH Naryu's Love

- Yes, his aerials are powerful, but they're so slow...

- She can edgeguard him back. Simple.

- What do you mean by 'manipulated' exactly?

Have you played this match-up against a good Snake? At all?

Din's helps a little, but mortar sliding will destroy that in an instant. Fsmash has the same range as the first hit of his ftilt. Nayru's is her lowest ranged attack, next to Farore's, which isn't really an attack. With smart play, you can use the invincibility to get an attack in, but this hardly limits Snake. He demolishes her up close, and she is best up close. That's all that needs to be said.

She's edgeguarding him far less often because she needs an obscene % to get the Dsmash to work right, nevermind trying to land it. Snake just needs her offstage once and he can C4 one part of the stage, Usmash to have you covered in the air, and grab the ledge to get a guaranteed punish on recovery.

She can't run past him, she can't outrange him because he has stupid hitboxes, she still loses to him in the air, she dies ridiculously early against him, she can't approach him, she can't run away from him, she can't grab him, she can't do anything that's safe on block against him... she can't do ANYTHING.


Seriously, this is why I'm so tired of discussing Zelda's weaknesses and matchups with just anybody.

 

[Brinzy]

Double.....

 

[.Marik]

Jeez, these last few pages have been a complete ****ing eyesore.

 

[Frown]

Jeez, these last few pages have been a complete ****ing eyesore.

Agreed.

Let's discuss Zelda.

 

[Collective of Bears]

Let's discuss Zelda.

My best friend mains Zelda.

 

[Red Arremer]

zeldas a pretty cool guy, she rules hyrule and doesnt afraid of anything

 

[Brinzy]

Why are the princesses higher than their heroes?

 

[Frown]

zeldas a pretty cool guy, she rules hyrule and doesnt afraid of anything

arby n teh chief lol

Why are the princesses higher than their heroes?

Peach over Mario... yes.
Zelda over Link... yes.
Marth over Ike... yes.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

Why are the princesses higher than the guys that capture them?

Fixed.

10fixes.

 

[Ryusuta]

I swear, this is the last time I'm responding about any of this.

Liar.

In your opinion. Like I said with Matador, I'm agreeing to disagree.

You're not agreeing to disagree. You've been debating about this ever since I left. I'm argumentative about this, but at least I'm not hypocritical about my argumentativeness.

I think it would make an absurd amount of cluttering threads that the SWF staff would have to get rid of, most of which would amount to pointless whining about the SBR not following each character's board religiously.

Oh, give me a break. The level of activity would NOT be drastically increased just because a new topic of conversation were introduced. Granted, there might be some excitement for the first couple of weeks, but I see no reason to expect a major change in daily routine here on SWF.

I think it's a bad idea because, in short, people in general are stupid. People would ruin it for the smarter people who would benefit (like you, Matardor, Dark.pch, etc.)

Are you calling us three the stupid people that would ruin it, or that smarter people that would benefit? Either way, your assumption is not only blatantly flawed, but it also denies the crux of the situation: if people are so stupid and loudmouthed and prone to complaint, how is hiding one forum going to change any of that?

The fact of the matter is that the type of people you're referring to - be they the majority or the minority - will grab any flimsy premise to argue REGARDLESS, and they're already trolling these forums as we speak. Hiding SBRB hasn't done anything to circumvent this. I already tore this argument to shreds WEEKS ago.

You're the one who said there are tons and tons of these great minds and players who aren't in the SBR. Rally them together. Gather up on AiB or somewhere, I don't care. Make a group on SWF if it pleases you to be here.

Again, I bring up the comparison to a large corporation. It's not realistic to start up a counter group and have it become instantly recognized, when so many people are used to one "authority" on something, regardless of the quality of the two things offered.

Yes, it's unrealistic. Yes, it's probably not going to happen. No, it's not impossible. Get some top hats, monocles, tea and crumpets and you're halfway there already, apparently (yes I am going to beat that dead horse into the ****ing ground).

So long as you admit it.

Neither of our opinions matter anyway, as they're not going to change the SBR's opinion.

There's a major difference between having your opinion matter and changing a biased mind.

If they have any sense at all, they'll keep it private to avoid the nonsense that would ensue. From their position, it's a high risk, minimum reward move to make it public.

If that's there perspective, then they're in no position to be making the decisions they're making. They should be knocked off of their pedestal immediately if this is seriously the genuine feeling in SBRB. To put it another way:

The less they feel they should be scrutinized, the more deserving they are of criticism.

It's just that simple.

I am now done arguing about this with you.

Liar... liar... liar...

It's more like: "The SBR is smart enough to not open themselves up to the tidal wave of idiocy that would inevitably commence."

This thread is proving my point more and more all the time.

Don't be so hard on yourself. I wouldn't say your posts have been a tidal wave of idiocy, per se. Just teasing.

In all seriousness, though, the facts remain the same:

-The so-called "tidal wave of idiocy" is here regardless of SBRB's openness. You said it yourself. In other words, keeping it closed has done NOTHING to prevent people from having their say. So, this argument is DONE.

-Keeping things a secret damages their credibility, because they have no accountability for their claims.

-Keeping things secret encourages ignorance outside of the SBRB by not acting as a guiding, education force... one of the things they should strive to be.

-Keeping things secret allows them to repeatedly make the same flawed assumptions over and over again if they make a mistake and no one is in a position to correct them.

-Any argument to the contrary of any of this would have to make the assumption that SBRB is usually right and everyone else is usually wrong, which has been shown to be demonstrably false.

Gbud, Marth, Samus, and Wolf. IIRC

Absolutely not. Game & Watch and Marth are pretty accurate. Wolf is... debatable. But Samus runs AT BEST about neutral with Yoshi.

This thread and threads like it are the accountability.

That's not accountability. That's just some P.R. release that puts a face on the absolute OUTSIDE of what's been discussed. They're not even remotely similar.

They don't make tier lists and say "this is the tier list, it's never going to change, and nobody's opinions and discoveries make any difference!". They put the final product on display and let people discuss it.

They could hardly do otherwise, could they? If they're making a public release, which is supposed to be considered authoritative, they couldn't very well HIDE it.

At any rate, it doesn't address what we've been discussing, which is their overall methodology, rationale, and discussions. THESE are what matter, not the bread crumbs they throw at everyone else.

Seriously, I've said it before and I'll say it again: criticism is good. Criticism is great. I'm all for that. I'm sure good would come from people like yourself being privy to their discussions. But opening up their discussions for EVERYONE to see and criticize? Any good discussion would be lost in the sea of internet poop that would commence.

Oh, come on. Look at the forums right now. No, I'm serious. Go to some of the character discussion forums. Browse around. Take a good long look. I'M SERIOUS. Go ahead and look. Take a look at the stage discussion threads. Go ahead. I'll wait.

...No. I mean it. GO AND DO IT.

All done? Good. The arguments are already THERE. They're going on RIGHT NOW. Anyone that WANTS to argue about something on this game is ALREADY ARGUING ABOUT IT. All having SBRB discussion open would do is give them something NEW to argue about. And in the meantime, it's all out in the open, and they can't hide behind the veil of secrecy and say "Well, this might have been discussed," or "We could consider that soon," or "We're already talking about this." No, they are called to task for everything they say. And if they don't think that's fair, then they should not be respected or considered anything more than random posters that were appointed into a special hip club by their friends.

Again... pretty easy to follow stuff, here.

I await your return of "not arguing" about this.

 

[Collective of Bears]

Why are the princesses higher than their heroes?

They're royalty, so they paid Sakurai in rupees and coins to make them better.

 

[Zankoku]

Yeah, that's a pretty bad matchup. You're better off using your down-b against Snake, and even that isn't very good.

Hey, if it weren't for Sheik's relatively light weight, and difficulty to kill, she'd have an advantage on Snake. I'd be willing to say factoring in Transform and having a solid Zelda would even make the matchup even.

But that's just me.

 

[Brinzy]

Zelda must've confused the blue rupee for the purple one.

Also, that Waluigi thing is mesmerizing.

 

[Frown]

Is it forbidden to pause the game in order to let Zelda/Sheik load during tournament play?

 

[Collective of Bears]

Also, that Waluigi thing is mesmerizing.

I know right? Waluigi's crotch for top tier. =P

 

[Brinzy]

Yes, it's forbidden.

But yeah, learning both of them makes them viable, so at least Zelda gets that. Every female is probably viable...

 

[Ray_Kalm]

Is it forbidden to pause the game in order to let Zelda/Sheik load during tournament play?

Is that even possible?

 

[Ryusuta]

I actually had no idea pausing the game did that! (O_O)

 

[Zankoku]

I actually had no idea pausing the game did that! (O_O)

As demontrated, transform time is dictated entirely by Wii's loading times. If Zelda/Sheik is already present and preloaded, transform time is reduced to practically zero.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PdpmC9cDEB4

 

[Brinzy]

Yeah, it's possible. The game doesn't load both of them before the match, so when you down B, it starts loading again. Pausing it lets the character load fully and you instantly come out. I think PT is the same, but not sure.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

I actually had no idea pausing the game did that! (O_O)

I didn't either. Well, you learn something new each day.

 

[Gindler]

Well apparently samus and yoshi go even so I was wrong there, need to stop listening to metatitan

There has to be more than just Marth holding Yoshi back. Is that matchup really that bad?

I thought it was just an overall lack of options for Yoshi, mostly because of his crappy shield.

It's not that bad, just not fun at all. Apparently it's 35:65...

Yeah no OOS sucks, hence why I don't shield often. It's all about the spotdodge