The Official SBR-B Brawl Tier List v3.0

[Dark.Pch]

"Ok Has More range. Ok. Peach has range as well"

Way to take one of DK's strongest traits and just shrug it off likes its nothing. his range advantage (over everyone, especially peach) is insanely good. You cant really make an accurate comparison at all when you ignore such an enormous (pun intended ) factor in characters abilities

Someone did not read clearly I see. I am stating that Peach also has range. I never brought it up as saying we have range too so Ha!. never said or went along those lines. I stated in general that peach has range and processed with what I was saying due to it. And I already said DK has more range than her.

You sir did not comprehend what I was saying.

 

[Collective of Bears]

"Ok Has More range. Ok. Peach has range as well"

Way to take one of DK's strongest traits and just shrug it off likes its nothing. his range advantage (over everyone, especially peach) is insanely good. You cant really make an accurate comparison at all when you ignore such an enormous (pun intended ) factor in characters abilities

I think at this point, D.P is just trying to make it look like he knows what he's talking about by posting a bunch of long stuff that he wants people to tl;dr. Ignoring DK's amazing range is completely idiotic any way you look at it.

Someone did not read clearly I see. I am stating that Peach also has range. I never brought it up as saying we have range too so Ha!. never said or went along those lines. I stated in general that peach has range and processed with what I was saying due to it. And I already said DK has more range than her.

You sir did not comprehend what I was saying.

Wait what? " I am stating that Peach also has range. I never brought it up as saying we have range too."

Can someone please explain to me what the difference between "We also have range" and "We have range too" is?

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

I thought a lot of ZSS' game was dash attack locks and uair up b Dsmash and utilt shenanigans.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

I thought a lot of ZSS' game was dash attack locks and uair up b Dsmash and utilt shenanigans.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J2BOs5DujOw

 

[Collective of Bears]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J2BOs5DujOw

I love armor shenanigans.

 

[Splice]

@ SFP

By recovery do you mean UpB or DownB or both?
I find that you can sometimes predict DownB and (with GaW) Bair or Fair it, and they have to resort to pretty much the same thing, but yeah its pretty good.
UpB imo isnt great, i guess combined with DownB its decent though, but we have decided GaW is better at recovering, and thats what I'm getting at, so yeah, thats all good then.

Yes, ZSS airials kill really well, they have a bit of lag, some of them do anyway im pretty sure. GaW airials (excluding Fair) only really have landing lag too. GaWs Dair spikes too.
However, my main point with this comment is that in the GaW matchup thread, ZSS doesnt want to go in the air, because this is bad... yeah.... Now the matchup is quite different on ZSS boards and on the GaW boards so it makes it a tad difficult, but Vs. my friend, he tries to stay on the ground, and his AcrossB beats my approaches. But as soon as i get him into the air, I make up for all the damage he did on ground. GaW can string moves together like ZSS, its really who hits first, but GaW, it seems, is faster.
Also the ZSS vs GaW matchup forces both chars to change playstyle a bit, so with the ground game i think GaWs Dtilt and Jab and smashes are better than ZSS overrall, but her longrange AcrossB ***** his approaches, but im not a the best GaW so maybe i just suck.

**** sorry im going on the matchup too much.

But yeah, I dont have enough knowledge of ZSS to carry this argument to much longer, but I think
GaWs bizarre airial capabilities + flexibility in air + UpB is better than
ZSS strong airials + flexibility in air + UpB + DownB

And that his ground game is on par with hers, and that this + (all the other stuff) makes GaW just a bit better than ZSS.

You'll probably get your way though - GaW is slowly moving down and if ZSS places high consistantly like you say she'll probably go up, but for now, GaW has the edge.

Sorry if i seem to be saying the same things but slightly better each time, I just do not think you are right about GaW (mainly the airials, idc if you think her ground game and stuff is better) and have told you what I know and think.

 

[Dark.Pch]

I think at this point, D.P is just trying to make it look like he knows what he's talking about by posting a bunch of long stuff that he wants people to tl;dr. Ignoring DK's amazing range is completely idiotic any way you look at it.



Wait what? " I am stating that Peach also has range. I never brought it up as saying we have range too."

Can someone please explain to me what the difference between "We also have range" and "We have range too" is?

maybe if you was not trying to sound funny and you might learn to read a bit more and get stuff. Let me make this a lil easier for you.

I never brought it up as saying "we have range too so Ha!"

Maybe I should have used " Though I did not think I have too. But I forgot, this is smashboards, and filled with people like you trying to be funny and cool.

 

[Red Arremer]

S: Can hold their own in pretty much any circumstance
A: All great tournament characters, though some matchups or stages are problematic
B: Same as above, though encounter bad matchups more frequently; they rarely see firsts
C: On the cusp of tournament viability; good players can do well with them and take out some other reputable players, though they will very seldomly get top three
D: They have far too many bad matchups to really be any good for maining for tournament play, though they are fundamentally decent.
E: They have their niches, but are severely outclassed by most other charactes
F: lol

 

[Matador]

This whole Peach/DK/Pit debacle got me thinking...

How does SBR judge specific positions on the tier list? What makes their vote? Their idea of what each character's ability is? No offense to SBR, but their character specific opinions are hardly concrete evidence of how good a character is...

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

@ SFP

By recovery do you mean UpB or DownB or both?
I find that you can sometimes predict DownB and (with GaW) Bair or Fair it, and they have to resort to pretty much the same thing, but yeah its pretty good.
UpB imo isnt great, i guess combined with DownB its decent though, but we have decided GaW is better at recovering, and thats what I'm getting at, so yeah, thats all good then.

Yes, ZSS airials kill really well, they have a bit of lag, some of them do anyway im pretty sure. GaW airials (excluding Fair) only really have landing lag too. GaWs Dair spikes too.
However, my main point with this comment is that in the GaW matchup thread, ZSS doesnt want to go in the air, because this is bad... yeah.... Now the matchup is quite different on ZSS boards and on the GaW boards so it makes it a tad difficult, but Vs. my friend, he tries to stay on the ground, and his AcrossB beats my approaches. But as soon as i get him into the air, I make up for all the damage he did on ground. GaW can string moves together like ZSS, its really who hits first, but GaW, it seems, is faster.
Also the ZSS vs GaW matchup forces both chars to change playstyle a bit, so with the ground game i think GaWs Dtilt and Jab and smashes are better than ZSS overrall, but her longrange AcrossB ***** his approaches, but im not a the best GaW so maybe i just suck.

**** sorry im going on the matchup too much.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cJNSza-RXxU&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KXOlGLKBlUs&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DgvMttc9WJE&feature=related

This is the most recent GAW vs ZSS match I could find on YouTube. Dazwa's a really good player and OBM is one of the best GAWs, so it's fine.

The first match exemplifies my point perfectly. While the game is on the ground, Dazwa suffers. During the later half of the match, it gets taken to the air and Dazwa regains momentum. Notice what happens when key and uair connect; when spaced improperly, they clash, but when Dazwa spaces correctly, the key is beaten.

In match 3 on RC, you can really see what I'm talking about. Most of the match takes place in the air and OBM gets absolutely wrecked. You can also see bair beating key numerous times.

But yeah, I dont have enough knowledge of ZSS to carry this argument to much longer, but I think
GaWs bizarre airial capabilities + flexibility in air + UpB is better than
ZSS strong airials + flexibility in air + UpB + DownB

And that his ground game is on par with hers, and that this + (all the other stuff) makes GaW just a bit better than ZSS.

You'll probably get your way though - GaW is slowly moving down and if ZSS places high consistantly like you say she'll probably go up, but for now, GaW has the edge.

Sorry if i seem to be saying the same things but slightly better each time, I just do not think you are right about GaW (mainly the airials, idc if you think her ground game and stuff is better) and have told you what I know and think.

I totally disagree. ZSS' aerial game is what's keeping her functional in high end tourney play.

S: Can hold their own in pretty much any circumstance

I don't agree with this necessarily. Diddy Kong has a lot of problematic matches, specifically in the mid tier. What's keeping him high are tourney results and his matchups with other high and top tier characters. Dedede is similar. He's hard countered by a bunch of different top and high tiers but still manages to place.

Your description of A tier is closer to what S tier actually is. A tier is more like "awesome character that gets ***** by MK, Dedede or Snake."

 

[Collective of Bears]

maybe if you was not trying to sound funny and you might learn to read a bit more and get stuff. Let me make this a lil easier for you.

For reference, I read your whole post. And as far as I can tell, you basically shrugged off DK's range like it was nothing, which is a really stupid thing to do.

I never brought it up as saying "we have range too so Ha!"

"Ok Has More range. Ok. Peach has range as well and faster at spacing than DK is."

Sounds a lot like that to me.

Maybe I should have used " Though I did not think I have too. But I forgot, this is smashboards, and filled with people like you trying to be funny and cool.

Funny and cool? I beg to differ. I'm trying to make a point just as you are, that point being that DK > Peach despite what your biased opinion says.

Answers in bold.

S: Can hold their own in pretty much any circumstance
A: All great tournament characters, though some matchups or stages are problematic
B: Same as above, though encounter bad matchups more frequently; they rarely see firsts
C: On the cusp of tournament viability; good players can do well with them and take out some other reputable players, though they will very seldomly get top three
D: They have far too many bad matchups to really be any good for maining for tournament play, though they are fundamentally decent.
E: They have their niches, but are severely outclassed by most other charactes
F: lol

This needs to be on the OP.

 

[Red Arremer]

@Matador:
I can't talk about the SBRoomers in general, and I haven't voted on this tier list outside of the Low Tiers, but I do keep myself informed on all characters (despite not participating in their discussions), and I have played pretty much every character, including their specific strategies etc., to get myself a certain picture of what the character is capable of.

Additionally to that, I play other people - which is far more present for most American SBRoomers - who main other characters that I wasn't able to explore well (in my case, for example, Diddy. I can't play with Diddy at all, but the best player here in Vienna mains Diddy, and due to playing him I know what Diddy is capable of), and of course I watch videos and streams of tournaments.

Naturally, I will never claim to know as much about Peach as their most dedicated mains, and I will never claim to know everything. I also don't think I'm always right. If I'm wrong, and I'm shown the facts, then I do recognize if I was wrong (e.g. that one occasion in this very thread when I was wrong about non-tether grabrange).

So yea. It's not like we're ignorant tards who have no idea at all.

 

[Jim Morrison]

I read this thread when I'm bored. Or the MK banned thread.
This is so lol

 

[Collective of Bears]

I read this thread when I'm bored. Or the MK banned thread.
This is so lol

We aim to please.

 

[Matador]

@Matador:
I can't talk about the SBRoomers in general, and I haven't voted on this tier list outside of the Low Tiers, but I do keep myself informed on all characters (despite not participating in their discussions), and I have played pretty much every character, including their specific strategies etc., to get myself a certain picture of what the character is capable of.

Additionally to that, I play other people - which is far more present for most American SBRoomers - who main other characters that I wasn't able to explore well (in my case, for example, Diddy. I can't play with Diddy at all, but the best player here in Vienna mains Diddy, and due to playing him I know what Diddy is capable of), and of course I watch videos and streams of tournaments.

Naturally, I will never claim to know as much about Peach as their most dedicated mains, and I will never claim to know everything. I also don't think I'm always right. If I'm wrong, and I'm shown the facts, then I do recognize if I was wrong (e.g. that one occasion in this very thread when I was wrong about non-tether grabrange).

So yea. It's not like we're ignorant tards who have no idea at all.

Believe me, I'm sure you guys all do your research n whatnot.

What I'm getting at is this: Reflex stated that if Ganon DID start to consistently beat top players, sort of how Anther does with Pika, then Ganon would rise as well.

As unlikely as it may be, this bothers me. Reflex himself is an example of how easily this can change when he started placing with PT. Does SBR's opinion of PT magically shift because he's now beating top players; even if it's only because Reflex is good at the game and able to deal with PT's negatives rather than PT inexplicably becoming better?

It seems this is what's happened to Sonic on a larger scale. If this IS the case, then how is their rise measured?

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

I do want to say I'm not really all that upset about the tier listing itself, because as I've said, it's all a bunch of top hats and monocles sitting around sipping brandy.

I'm a little pissed at the perception that ZSS isn't an amazing character by the upper echelon of players, who by the way, are frequently getting beaten by Snakeee's ZSS.

 

[Splice]

I have not watched the vidz yet but i will 2moz but it'll be too late to comment (i am tired)

Also i think we were talking about GaWs Bair not Dair that could beat ZSS other airials but w/e
Maybe my ZSS friend just sucks at playing in the air.

Anyway, I'm sure those matches prove your point, but, I still think GaWs airials are better than ZSS (yeah yeah im being stubborn) and that airials are just as important to him as they are for ZSS and both rely on them when they are Vsing each other and against other characters too. On the GaW boards it says the matchup is 50:50 (OBM wrote it btw) so obviously our main game (which is airials for both of us) must be quite even, even if Dazwa beat OBM in that set that doesnt prove ZSS has better airials than GaW overrall coz GaWs airials are especially good against a lot of characters and well ZSS doesnt seem to be one hey? Yeah, too tired to continue, i do still disagree to an extent but dont worry, you have made your point clear to me and i cannot outright deny it so obviously it has some truth to be acknowledged, Im not going to say you are wrong

Good Discussion, thanks!

 

[Jim Morrison]

Believe me, I'm sure you guys all do your research n whatnot.

What I'm getting at is this: Reflex stated that if Ganon DID start to consistently beat top players, sort of how Anther does with Pika, then Ganon would rise as well.

As unlikely as it may be, this bothers me. Reflex himself is an example of how easily this can change when he started placing with PT. Does SBR's opinion of PT magically shift because he's now beating top players; even if it's only because Reflex is good at the game and able to deal with PT's negatives rather than PT inexplicably becoming better?

It seems this is what's happened to Sonic on a larger scale. If this IS the case, then how is their rise measured?

Yes, that is basically it, because when a good player starts beating other good players with a bad character, doing **** others aren't doing, he is showing what the character is capable off.
That is what the tier list reflects, how good the character is, what he is capable of, how well he would do in tournaments, you know it.

Yes.

 

[Collective of Bears]

As unlikely as it may be, this bothers me. Reflex himself is an example of how easily this can change when he started placing with PT. Does SBR's opinion of PT magically shift because he's now beating top players; even if it's only because Reflex is good at the game and able to deal with PT's negatives rather than PT inexplicably becoming better?

It seems this is what's happened to Sonic on a larger scale. If this IS the case, then how is their rise measured?

Well consider this. The fact that Reflex is beating top players is a sign that PT is capable of more then was previously thought, and is therefore considered better. The same with Sonic.

EDIT: Beaten.

 

[Dark.Pch]

Answers in bold.



This needs to be on the OP.

I did not shrug off his range. I even said he has more range than Peach. I'm bring up her range just to state that Peach has range as well (Yet, not more than DK) and how that range she has goes in with her spacing.

I never ignored the fact about his range. I am not using Peach range to conquer his (Cause it is impossible).Nothing Peach can do about that, she can't extend her hands and all out of nowhere to have more range. DK wins in that department.

I'm stating that Peach has range on her air attacks as well( In general) just to get that out there, THEN I go into her spacing dealing with her range and the other stuff that gets linked to get.

 

[Red Arremer]

If this IS the case, then how is their rise measured?

Tournament results.

If Ganondorf starts to consistently beat good players, he will rise, because that means we apparently underestimated his potential. Sonic consistently placed in tournaments and beat good players, resulting in him rising.
Reflex took Pokemon Trainer and won a tournament with only the Trainer, showing what he is capable of. The character's potential has been recognized.

I do want to say I'm not really all that upset about the tier listing itself, because as I've said, it's all a bunch of top hats and monocles sitting around sipping brandy.

I'm a little pissed at the perception that ZSS isn't an amazing character by the upper echelon of players, who by the way, are frequently getting beaten by Snakeee's ZSS.

How do you know that we're a "bunch of top hats"? Zero Suit Samus has been rising in both Tierlist 2 and 3, isn't that good enough? Besides this, how do you know that the players who have been beaten by Snakeee are the ones who voted lower for her?

Also, I hate brandy, ugh. Alcohol sucks.

 

[Matador]

Alright, that makes sense. Much obliged.

 

[Collective of Bears]

I think ZSS is good and is going to consistently rise, but atm I'm not seeing anything from her worthy of her skyrocketing.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

How do you know that we're a "bunch of top hats"? Zero Suit Samus has been rising in both Tierlist 2 and 3, isn't that good enough?

It's a committee vote.

And, not really. The tier list is supposed to measure where ZSS is in the current metagame. Using what we know and how well her few mains are placing, she should be much higher. She also has a younger metagame than most other characters as I said earlier in the thread, although that doesn't count for anything it is worth mentioning.

I said earlier I wouldn't say this, but since I really don't care much how crazy or wrong you guys think I am and because I trust you think I'm at the very least not entirely stupid (though I have been wrong before!):

I believe ZSS is currently #6-#8 in the cast if match-up figures from the best players, tourney results from our best players, and the overall quality of her moves are of any consequence to the measurement. Yes, that means bottom of S tier or top of A tier. Commence laughter and flaming.

Besides this, how do you know that the players who have been beaten by Snakeee are the ones who voted lower for her?

I don't. I know that more players voted her as a "2" than a "1," though, obviously.

Also, I hate brandy, ugh. Alcohol sucks.

Agreed.

 

[Shaya]

Lol Spadefox, your definition of tiers pretty much has me sitting back in lolstatus.

S tier should only have Metaknight and Snake in it.
Especially with Falco in there... oh dear.

In other words, what Spadefox really wanted to say was:

"what he said" + "in the context of the current tournament metagame where character popularity and their intermediate results are taken into account whilst considering character's match ups"

i.e. whilst Falco loses to Ice Climbers pretty BADLY, it isn't really effecting his tier placement.
Pikachu would probably be seen his advantage against Falco too, as well as SHEIK (srsly; sheik will be in B tier before the end of Brawl!)

Oh and Supermodel, I play a ZSS often, I'm soon to upload vids of me playing said ZSS. In the first match, I can easily prove to the world that Zero Suit Samus is not easily gimped, and is very very gay.

 

[tocador]

Tournament results.


Reflex took Pokemon Trainer and won a tournament with only the Trainer, showing what he is capable of. The character's potential has been recognized.

Pokemon Trainer.......The character's potential has been recognized

Only god knows how much i suffered until i could see this sentence from the SBR.

 

[Red Arremer]

@SFP:
If she's so good, she will keep on rising. The tier list is far from being complete.

Only god knows how much i suffered until i could see this sentence from the SBR.

I don't know what that's supposed to mean, sorry.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Lol Spadefox, your definition of tiers pretty much has me sitting back in lolstatus.

S tier should only have Metaknight and Snake in it.
Especially with Falco in there... oh dear.

In other words, what Spadefox really wanted to say was:

"what he said" + "in the context of the current tournament metagame where character popularity and their intermediate results are taken into account whilst considering character's match ups"

i.e. whilst Falco loses to Ice Climbers pretty BADLY, it isn't really effecting his tier placement.
Pikachu would probably be seen his advantage against Falco too, as well as SHEIK (srsly; sheik will be in B tier before the end of Brawl!)

Oh and Supermodel, I play a ZSS often, I'm soon to upload vids of me playing said ZSS. In the first match, I can easily prove to the world that Zero Suit Samus is not easily gimped, and is very very gay.

It's Zero, right? Zero is supposed to be really really good, but I haven't seen any singles matches from him so it's hard to say. Can't wait to see them!

 

[tocador]

It means that it took long enough untill the SBR realized PT HAS potencial. (or at least more than the SBR thought he had) And i believe PT will rise even more o/

 

[Brinzy]

I'm a little pissed at the perception that ZSS isn't an amazing character by the upper echelon of players, who by the way, are frequently getting beaten by Snakeee's ZSS.

I've only played his ZSS on WiFi with my Zelda.


.... uuuuuuughhhhh...

 

[Turbo Ether]

Lucario and Zero Suit Samus are both definitely better than Kirby, imo.

 

[Red Arremer]

It means that it took long enough untill the SBR realized PT HAS potencial. (or at least more than the SBR thought he had) And i believe PT will rise even more o/

I haven't been part of the SBR for very long time, so I can't tell you. I barely had any influence at the current tier list, and I know what Pokemon Trainer is capable of, I never denied that.

 

[Shaya]

Actually Supermodel!

I didn't realise, the vids of Zero are already uploaded, including me playing him...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZnaPRf8H368&feature=channel_page (marf rox)

First 30 seconds should be sufficient.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

I play a little PT (very little) and the big problem I have with them is that the strat seems to be:

Start with Squirtle, milk for as long as possible
Once Ivy comes out after Squirtle dies, kill if they are at high %. If not, immediately switch to 'zard because Ivy is literally the worst 'character' in the game.
Stall with 'zard until Squirtle's fresh. Try for a kill if you can get one.

Squirtle is amazing, Charizard is OK, and Ivy is just bad. It's like a tripod with a broken leg.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Actually Supermodel!

I didn't realise, the vids of Zero are already uploaded, including me playing him...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZnaPRf8H368&feature=channel_page (marf rox)

First 30 seconds should be sufficient.

Hahaha that was awesome. Also dashlock. 8-)

edit: Sorry double post. =/

 

[Collective of Bears]

I'm probably the only PT main who doesn't think Ivy is garbage >_<

 

[Red Arremer]

I'm probably the only PT main who doesn't think Ivy is garbage >_<

Atomsk would like to have a word with you. :D

 

[Vermy]

I play a little PT (very little) and the big problem I have with them is that the strat seems to be:

Start with Squirtle, milk for as long as possible
Once Ivy comes out after Squirtle dies, kill if they are at high %. If not, immediately switch to 'zard because Ivy is literally the worst 'character' in the game.
Stall with 'zard until Squirtle's fresh. Try for a kill if you can get one.

Squirtle is amazing, Charizard is OK, and Ivy is just bad. It's like a tripod with a broken leg.

This is a misconception of how PT is played.
But before i start, im not going to claim PT is high tier, if anything as a whole PT might get to high C Tier. I do not in any way claim "X character is better than Y character" i simply wish to shed some light on the situation.

the "Start as Squirtle" strategy only works to your benefit on maybe half the cast. Try that on say, Marth, Yoshi or G&W. GG Squirtle. Granted Reflex starts as Squirtle in all matches recorded, they tend to be vs Falco and MK, where Squirtle is the best possible starter choice, Squirtle is not the perfect starter in all situations.

Ivysaur while undeniably the "weak link" of the 3 by no means makes her the worst character in the game. Bulletseed is fantastic at racking damage and frustrating your opponent. On Heavyweights, from the very bottom to the top of bulletseed can do upto 60% damage with SDI. Nair is a great combo starter leading into most other aerials, tilts and occasionally an fsmash. Pivot grab has great speed and range. Uthrow and Bthrow kill at high percents while dthrow sets up aerials nicely. Considering the massive power behind ivy's Usmash it comes out at a decent speed. Dash attack is Hella fast, has good priority and if fresh can kill at around 120%. Ivy's recovery may be extremely gimpable, but a good PT wont let that happen easily. Thats Ivy out of the way.

Charizard is C Tier material. No question. Flamethrower is looooooooong. Rocksmash has decent speed, very high priority (cuts through MKs tornado) and a "crunchy" hit will do upto 45%. His ftilt has great range. His dtilt is a fast, efficient kill move and can be "comboed" from a grab release on some characters. His recovery is 2nd best of the heavyweights, 1st going to D3. His weight gives him great survival. His grab range is massive, and grab release/throws complement his move set well. His upB has superarmour on startup and works well as an oos kill.

It's 2am here, and i cbf thinking of more. Again, just trying to help, in no way should anyone take this as a rebuttal to an argument or anything. Just stating facts you may or may not know.

@Commander Blitzkrieg: See? I gotcha back. =] Us PTs may be small in numbers, but we stick together ^_^

 

[Albert.]

S: Can hold their own in pretty much any circumstance
A: All great tournament characters, though some matchups or stages are problematic
B: Same as above, though encounter bad matchups more frequently; they rarely see firsts
C: On the cusp of tournament viability; good players can do well with them and take out some other reputable players, though they will very seldomly get top three
D: They have far too many bad matchups to really be any good for maining for tournament play, though they are fundamentally decent.
E: They have their niches, but are severely outclassed by most other charactes
F: lol

Very well said, I agree 900%

 

[Browny]

zards recovery is bad vermy lol. its the same deal as luigi, it might get u back to the stage often enough, but its so slow, predictable and non-threatening. DDD as well, try to recover vs an MK who just shuttle loops u out of your recovery every single time. distance is worthless when its easy to stop. id say dk's is #1, snake 2, bowser 3, zard 4 ddd 5